Navigating Tough Conversations and Resolving Conflict

Welcome to The In Between Podcast. I'm Astrid.

And I'm Alexis. And we're 2 best friends on a journey to living a fun, intentional life.

We know it's easier to share on a season of life once it's behind you, but what about when you're in the middle of the growth, confusion, and decision-making?

This lifestyle podcast is for the everyday gal who loves to travel, talk about business, relationships, fashion, and everything in between.

Hello friends, and Welcome back to another episode of The In Between Podcast. This is one of your hosts, Astrid.

And the other half, Alexis.

And we are back today with week 3 of our communication series. And today's topic I'm so excited for, it is navigating conflict. And a lot of us probably feel like throwing up whenever that pops up and having those hard conversations, but this is where we're going to learn What are some actual steps that we can take to approach that? How can we do that in a healthy way? How can we feel a little bit lighter whenever we have to navigate that in our lives? And yeah, I'm so excited for this conversation. But before we start, you want to tell them about our weekend?

Yes. Yeah, I'm super excited to talk about conflict resolution. I can't wait. But yeah, so this past weekend, Astrid and her boyfriend Nick came to visit Matthew and I in Houston. So much fun. It was like our first time having a couples weekend together. It was so fun. Yes, I love this.

It was so fun. We've traveled a lot together, and ever since we started really building our friendship, I've been a single girly. So it was just like you and me while Matthew was away.

Bye, Matt.

Yes. And it was so fun to see you in a relationship. It's just a different side of your best friend whenever they're with your significant other. And I don't know if you felt that too on your end of like, what? I don't know this side of you. But it's a good side. It's just like the sweet, like they're in love. Like, here's how they are with their partner. Here's like when they like, you know, give them a little kiss, how they melt. I just, I died. It was great.

Yeah, it was really fun. You in like watching you and him be so affectionate with each other and very in sync with each other, very in tune. And we went out to a really fun Tex-Mex restaurant. I think this is probably one of my highlights from the weekend together.

Say it.

There's 2. There's 2. The first one was at dinner on Friday night. We played this questions game where each couple asked the other couple different questions. Matt and I were like, hey, what question do we want to ask them? And then you and Nick did the same thing for Matthew and I, and we played that through dinner. And it was just like a mixture of light and deep questions that we asked each other. And it was like so intentional. I also feel like I got to know him on such a deeper level too, by like having those deeper conversations with your friends and their partners and like getting to know each other through the like surface level conversations of like, cool, I know what you do for work and I know where you went to school.

Yeah.

And like, you know, but you really want to know like, How do you think about this? And when you and Astrid first got together, what did you think? And just having those deeper convos and also getting to share some of Matthew and I's story with you as well. I don't know if even you knew some of the stuff that we had shared. And it was just really fun to have that relationship conversation with another couple. I loved it.

Absolutely. Me too. And I feel like we are very lucky to have men in our lives that are wanting to have those deeper conversations because it'd be so hard if like you and I always have those conversations. We have a podcast when we travel, we have those conversations over dinner. And then if one of our guys just wasn't into it and was like, no, but everything is like the questions, we wouldn't even be married or dating them. Very true.

It's a requirement. It really is. You can't have a deep intentional conversation about something, then like it ain't it.

Red flag. Absolutely jail. Jail time. Like, sorry, you can't be vulnerable?

No.

Um, you better not say that the second highlight of your weekend was winning at board games because I am ending this podcast right now.

It was. So, um, another fun thing at game night was I teamed up with Nick and Astrid teamed up with Matthew and we played Sequence. We played a couple different games and we whooped their booties. Nick and I won multiple games of Sequence. And yeah, I'm not gonna— the one thing about Matthew is he is a sore loser and he likes to—

So he hates me now and I'm not allowed into Texas anymore.

He was like low-key upset and I told him, I was like, you need to get over this. Like, you need to move on.

I can tell. He's like staring at me across the table like, oh my God.

It was so fun. We did like a pizza night, a pizza and game night. I'm scared.

It was so fun.

And Matthew forgives. He's like, he's like fine, you know, he's fine now, but it took him a little bit to get over it.

He's like, not a board game night ever again.

We had fun. Yeah, I'm so glad you came into town, and I had the best time.

So me too, me too. Very chill weekend, which was very nice. Did not feel like exhausting travel.

So yeah, good vibes all around.

For sure.

What are you in between right now?

What am I in between? There's a lot. I am in between— I feel like I'm in a new layer of my financial planning, both in my business and in my life. And I feel like as the year has progressed, some of my priorities have shifted. And as some of my habits have changed, That has shifted as well. And so I feel like looking at money as it's an investment of my time, it's an investment of my hard work. And so what is the most important things to me right now? And so I've really cut down on how much I've spent on shopping this year. I really cut down on like items. And then what I've actually spent on has been more organizational things for the house or saving for trips or just being able to— I invested in a deep house cleaning yesterday and she cleaned the baseboards, she cleaned the walls, she cleaned the doors.

You need that.

And oh my gosh, my mental state just walking around my house and being like, it's so clean, is 1,000% worth not buying X amount of dollars at— getting 2 pairs of jeans or 1 pair of jeans at Abercrombie that I totally wanted to get 2 weeks ago. So thank you. So yeah, I am— I guess this is approaching 30 vibes, but I am shifting my priorities and I am investing more in skincare, more in cleaning things, more in organizational things and travel and experiences. And I love it. It feels really, really good.

I love it. It's like, honestly, like financial maturity, you know, when it comes down to it. Like you get to a certain age, you start making a certain kind of money, and you start to look at money differently as well. And you're like, okay, how do I really want to spend this? How is this money working for me? And how do I want to like put it towards things that actually give me a return in a way?

Mm-hmm.

So like a house cleaner, you now have less mental load, your house is clean, it feels organized. trips, like the return on experiences. It's just, you know, we all value different things, but big fan of that. That's awesome. Thank you.

Thank you. I've got another, another in-between, but it's a small one. I am in between being a Colombian citizen and a US citizen because I finally applied for my citizenship.

Oh my God. I love that you're dropping this on the pod. Like I didn't know this until right now.

Oh, babe, that's so kind of you. I was like, Astrid, enough is enough.

Thank you.

Thank you. A little backstory. I could have applied for my citizenship like 3 years ago, and I've been just kind of delaying it. I don't really know why, but long story short, I finally pulled myself together this week, carved out an hour, and then filled out the application, sent it in. And so, yeah, well, I'll be hopefully an American citizen earlier next year.

Oh my gosh, how are we gonna celebrate? Um, we gotta do something really American.

Yeah, I mean, Texas is pretty American, so maybe something there. Oh my gosh, but what are you in between?

Oh, I'm so proud of you, that's awesome. Um, what am I in between right now? Well, friends, I— when you're listening to this, I will be in Europe. I will be in Florence.

Oh my gosh.

I'm very excited. Actually, the day that this releases, I might be in Venice, But whatever. I am very excited for my 2 weeks in Italy doing Florence, Venice, and 2 different locations in Tuscany. And I'm just really excited. I feel like I'm in between my creativity in a way. Like, there's something about creating content on trips that makes me really happy.

Yeah.

And it just feels very organic. Like, it doesn't feel forced. And I came from a travel blogging background for like the, you know, first couple years of my early 20s. And I do remember the pressure I used to feel to get the shot. And it's just how much I have changed the way that I approach taking photos and sharing like my life and sharing trips. I'm just really excited to share this trip. And it comes from like this really organic place of like, I'm packing my tripod. I want to like shoot some fun outfit videos and just lower the pressure. And I think when it comes to social media, sometimes I can, because I'm a coach part-time, you know, I have my full-time job, but I'm also a coach and I serve clients. And a lot of my clients find me from Instagram. Um, and I have relationships with them like through Instagram. I think I can like, Instagram is like a business tool and I need to share like businessy things on there. And I think so much of this past year is like releasing that. So I'm in between like just sharing what I want to share and sharing this trip, and it just being like a low-stakes, low-pressure way to share some fun European content. So I know that's like kind of light and superficial, but I have this like sense of fresh air vibes. I'm like sharing different European sounds and different like, oh, this kind of sounds like Italian music. Like I'm literally like excited to create reels and Saving different templates and just like, I'm ready to create. So I want to lean into that next week and just see what, what comes from that. And yeah, I'm excited.

Oh my gosh, I am so excited. I feel like that is something that as creators and creatives, we can miss so much whenever we structure our businesses quite a bit. And it's like, actually what got us here was sharing our lives organically and like the things that we love and not being so you know, I can only share X type of content. And I just love that for you. I love that. We're going to see more of like travel blogging Alexis because we love her. And that's how I got to know you.

Yes.

She is truly the best. But yeah, I feel like being able to tap into that creativity without any pressure is just beautiful. It's like a social media, a social way of doing Like your artist way. Like instead of a canvas, it's, you're putting your energy into this reel that whether one person likes it or 1,000 people, you're like, I'm so proud of it. This was so fun. This is so great. And that's truly the best energy to have around content.

I agree. My tripod's gonna be my best friend. I'm going with one of my girlfriends who I also work with, but I don't wanna like, we've, we've had this conversation about travel before of like friends taking photos of you. I don't wanna overwhelm her. So I am going to bring my tripod and just have fun creating. Low stakes, low pressure, and eat lots of pasta. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.

The food, we're ready for it.

Yeah, the food content. I should just make a reel of just like everything I, everything I ate in Italy for 2 weeks.

That's what people really want to see.

Yes. Um, let's talk about conflict. So I'm excited about this conversation. I feel like honestly, over the last couple of months, I have had a lot of like interesting, hard conversations different people in my life that even though it doesn't feel like— I think whenever you hear the word conflict, you think of fighting.

Mm-hmm.

Remember junior high conflict where you're like, I'm fighting with my best friend, and you're texting back and forth? Or you know what I mean? You're fighting with your high school boyfriend and you're like— it feels very dramatic. And I feel like conflict as an adult, in my opinion, Even though it's still dramatic, it's a lot less about back and forth yelling at each other or you're being petty and you're texting each other. It's real conflict about something that, I don't know, it's like you hurt someone or they hurt you or someone crossed a boundary. And I think a lot of navigating conflict is just knowing when you've been hurt and knowing I want to address it. And I think we were, as we were prepping for this conversation, I think there's kind of 2 different kinds of conflict. There's conflict that you know about that you want to surface with someone and have a conversation. And then there's conflict that you don't know about and someone has conflict with you, but you actually aren't privy to that information. And so, um, it's that other person is wanting to have a conversation with you that you might not be prepared for. So we're going to talk about both sides of that today, like you having a hard conversation with someone in your life, and then also how to handle someone having a hard conversation with you and holding space for that conflict.

Absolutely. If you're good with us diving straight in, I feel like being able to realize that there's both of those conflicts and each of those will bring so many emotions. And I feel like emotions, it's what makes navigating conflict so hard. Because there's layers. There's a layer of, I love this person so deeply and they hurt me. There's the layer of, maybe they don't even know they hurt me, but that was a trigger for me. And so now I'm very emotionally dysregulated. There's triggers, there's situations, there's the love, there's the hurt. The deeper you love, the more it hurts. Like the aspect of feeling not listened, if this has been a multiple occurrence type of thing. And so I think that being able to recognize that— so we, while we may not be able to control somebody else's actions or reactions, we can control how we handle the situation and we can control, um, or self-manage our emotions. And so I feel like emotional regulation is one of the first steps necessary in navigating conflict. Especially if maybe you tend to be someone that avoids and it's very scary and it makes your stomach just like turn up in knots to talk to someone, being able to start working on, okay, how can I first know what is going on inside? And I feel like that is something that has really helped me even in my dating relationship where now it's— I'm in my late 20s. I'm with someone that is so caring, so kind, and also will state their opinion. And they want to hear me and they want to listen to me. And so when we want to navigate conflict, the best thing I could do for our relationship is to know what it is that's bothering me, call it by name, and share it with them. Because otherwise, we're just— he's just managing emotions, and that's not his job. That's my job.

Mm-hmm.

And so I feel like the emotional regulation part is such a gift because we get to do that in our own privacy. There is no right or wrong. You can let out all the anger, all the hurt, all the emotions, and be able to really let that sit in a, in a room that has no other feelings and things. And then once we sort out those emotions, we can see a little bit more clearly why it is that it upset us. the root of it, because it's never really the situation. It's the root of it. It's, it made me feel that you don't care. It made me feel not heard. It made me feel like I'm not important to you. And so whenever we're able to then come to that person and say, hey, this is how I felt, this is how it hurt me, here's some emotions that I had, we're able to be a lot more proactive compared to if we haven't processed those emotions. We're now Initially processing all of those on that person and lashing out, or even the frustration of crying and not being able to communicate what it is you're feeling because you're in the moment. And then you're even more frustrated because you're like, I'm not supposed to be crying. Um, and so I feel like emotional regulation is such a gift and such an important step that is often skipped in navigating conflict.

That's big. Like you said so many, so many key things there. The piece too of like being able to step back and whether you are someone that needs to share, you know, something that's like conflict-oriented with someone or you're receiving it, sometimes you will not handle conflict well in the moment. And like I've had several situations in my life where I have not handled conflict in the way that I wanted to in the moment. And so through that, I've had to learn that when I am hurt or when I experience conflict or like something's bumped up against something and like, I don't know, I feel some type of way about it, I have to give myself space to not be reactive. And this is something that like I have really tried to work on in my 20s and something that my family saw a lot of in my late teens is I would be very, very defensive. Someone would say something that would hurt me, I would lash, I would speak out, I would be frustrated. I would like, you know, you're gonna hurt me, I'm gonna hurt you right back. And which is a very unhealthy, very unhealthy way to handle conflict. Granted, I'm in my late teens, like early to— sorry, mid to late teens at this point. And when I carried some of that into my 20s I was like, oh, this doesn't work here. You know, like one, lashing out and having that kind of conflict with your family is different than that. Like there's an intimacy with your family where they've, they know you and you're able to kind of grow up and like refine and experiment with a lot of your behavior with your family. And then whenever you take that and you put that in the real world, in the workplace, with your friends or the partner, You can't just lash out and be defensive every time someone says something that you disagree with. And so I had to unlearn that behavior, relearn a healthy behavior, and then take that back to my family unit and try to redefine my relationship with my family. And then also just work on my overall defense mechanisms. Because when conflict does come, you can avoid it, you can push it away, you can deny it, you can defend it, you can say—

That's right.

That didn't happen. That's not real. I mean, you can gaslight. The options are endless for how you want to respond to conflict in your life. And I think what you're saying is it's our responsibility to be aware of our emotions and to be aware of our tendencies and be able to regulate through that and be able to give ourselves space if we need to process, or be able to have that conversation in the moment, but with a lot of awareness Of how, hey, my stomach feels like I'm going to throw up, you know, or like, you know, maybe I'm starting to get teared up or I'm getting choked up, but my body's having a reaction to the situation. But I got to keep my mind clear because I care about this person and I care about this relationship. And so even though I might not feel good, I need to like have this level of care. And compassion for whatever, you know, situation's happening in the relationship.

Absolutely. So good. I feel like there are so many defense mechanisms that we— it's, it's our nature to have, and we have to fight that every single time. And that's why I feel like being able to emotionally regulate yourself, and, and not just the emotions but your mind, regulate your mind of what actually is happening here What actually bothered you? Was it a certain word? Was it a certain phrase? Was it the way that they said the thing or the way that they did the thing? And if that, if it was that, then take it a step further. Well, then why did it bother you that they did it in that certain way? Oh, it's because it makes me feel like they don't X, Y, and Z, and fill in the blank. And then I feel like taking that time makes the conversation that much more proactive. Because whenever I'm able to explain, for example, to my partner, hey, I felt, um, like you didn't see me in this moment because I realized that in the past people have lied to me and deceived me. And so whenever you shut down and don't talk to me, it's not that it's wrong, it's just that it makes my mind spiral. And so now I am processing all of this.

Mm-hmm.

And so can we work together to where you can communicate more to me of where, like, things are going to happen? This is an example, right? But then it's for them, it's not just a random like, hey, I didn't like that you did this, so I need you to do X, Y, and Z. No one likes that. But sharing the why, I feel like is such an important key factor in navigating conflict. And you'll only know the why if you spend that time alone. To decide what it is that actually bothered you.

This is huge. Like, the— just being able to assess the behavior of like, hey, when you did that, I didn't like it. Can you not do that again? Like, that's a basic, you know, way of approaching conflict. But being able to share the why, I think, adds this compassionate layer where you're being really vulnerable with the person in your life and you're saying like, this is actually on a deep level how this made me feel. And just to go a step further, this is actually how I connected this and it triggered something in my past. And even though you're not responsible for, for regulating that trigger, what, what I do want to work with you on is I want you to be sensitive to that. I want you to know that I struggle with this. And so then in the future, when we're approaching our relationship, you show up differently because you have this sense of compassion Towards my past. And you have context for when you say this, this is how it makes me feel. Or when you make comments like that, this is where I go mentally. I go back to 13-year-old me. And so you just approach things a bit differently whenever you take it to a more emotional, vulnerable place.

Absolutely. And even taking it more on the career business aspect as well, I feel like this still applies, right? Of course we're not going to be like, this reminds me of my deepest wound and trauma via email. But I still feel like being able to share a why and how it looks in the broader picture, especially if you manage people or have a team, they will feel less like, oh, okay, my manager's trying to control me, or they just don't get me compared to the broader picture. So for example, if a vendor doesn't meet a deadline or your teammate doesn't meet a deadline, and now that's causing you to have to work overtime time. And maybe you have kids. And so now you're not able to make it to your kid's game because you had to stay later to finish that thing. And then now your kid is upset because you didn't show up. And then now you're feeling really guilty. And then this keeps happening over and over and it's affecting your personal life. Being able to speak to that person and say, hey, how can we adjust this? How can we move forward in making sure that we can meet these deadlines? Because I'm here to help you. And whenever you don't turn in your work, it actually ends up affecting my personal life. You can share examples if you want or not, or just keep it broad. And so I'm just trying to find a way for us to work together. If not, if say it's a vendor, you can say, if not, you know, then, then it seems like we might not be a good fit for each other because prioritizing my mental health is very important to me and I'm really striving for work-life balance. That is a much broader picture of like how they're impacting your life. And this actually happened to me recently, and I got a message from someone back and they're like, wow, it wasn't until I read your email of how this was affecting your personal life that it made me realize my issues were impacting more than just me. And this is not who I am. Thank you for being honest and transparent on that. Here's how we're moving forward. Here's like a repair plan, which we'll talk about that later. And I was like, hey, totally get it. I've been there. Life is tough. We're a team. We'll move forward. So yeah, it's just, it's wild how communication and being able to be specific can really help when we're navigating conflict.

Yeah, I'll share a personal experience. At a previous company, I was— I'm trying to figure out how to keep this high level. Um, at a previous company, I was in a meeting and a project that I was working on very intently, um, someone who was not on my team had mentioned like, oh yeah, we're not going to be really focusing on that project anymore. And it was the first I'd heard about it. And I was, you know, shocked. I would— and this is, this is in a— this was kind of said offhandedly. In a meeting. And I said, oh, where did you hear that? And then he told me the source. And the source wasn't my manager, wasn't my boss. I was so confused on this misinformation on where we were out of alignment on me not focusing on this really big project for the company. So I sat with it. I was upset. And I think it's important to know your defaults. Like I default to anger and I own that. And it's my responsibility to navigate that. I was not going to lash out at my colleague. He was completely clueless. And I was also not going to go to this other director who said it and, you know, be upset with him immediately. I needed to think about how I wanted to process it. And I think it's really important to give yourself space to, to figure out how you want to strategically approach a conversation. And how, like, what kind of energy do I want to bring this conversation? If I bring my anger, I am shutting down any sort of resolution. I'm showing up really big and defensive, and I don't think that that's going to be the best way. So what instead I brought to the conversation was curiosity.

Mm-hmm.

I decided to approach the conflict with curiosity. And so I sat him down about 2 days later after I had time to process. And I said, hey, I want to surface this with you. I heard that you had mentioned XYZ about my project not being a priority anymore. I just love to know where your head is with it and where— this was years ago, but where did you come to that conclusion? Because this is the first time that I'm hearing of it. And so I just want to be involved in whatever sort of decision that you're making. So Help me understand where you're coming from. And we had a great conversation, got back in alignment, and we were off to the races again. But that's a very specific situation where if I showed up and I was just pissed off and you have no right and you don't know what you're talking about and blah blah blah blah, even though that's how I felt, I couldn't bring that kind of energy forward. And so I think when we're looking at conflict in our relationships with our family, at work, whatever, like you have to decide and set your own standard of how you want to show up in conflict-oriented discussions. So I know like my standards and guidelines in my relationship with my husband, we don't yell at each other, we don't slam doors or make loud noises in the house whenever we're upset, we don't name-call, and we also don't argue over text. Like we'll call each other, we'll FaceTime, or we'll talk about it in person, But arguing through text is not healthy for us. So we have those guidelines. I pull a lot of those guidelines into like my relationships with my family and friends as well. Um, so just like, that's the level and the standard in which I hold myself. And if I can't meet those standards, it's my responsibility to take space until I can.

Hmm. I love that so much. I feel like that example that you gave is such a clear example of the difference between building a bridge in conflict and grabbing a hammer during conflict.

Yeah, here's a problem.

Yeah, truly, because that— I feel like Nick keeps bringing this up, and I love that. And he's like, every time there's something to navigate, it's always brought us closer, and we've been more clear about what we want and where we're headed. And he's like, so now I look at the conflict differently. Rather than like, you never see me, we always get to the point where I understand where you're coming from, even if I don't agree with it. And so in that scenario, you were able to then now build— like, you ended the conversation on a very high note. And you're like, okay, great. This is amazing. We got clarity.

Yes.

And rather than if you would have shown up in the other side of things, you would have burned a bridge because they're like, wow, I feel disrespected. And I feel like in conflict, our egos are so quick to show up. And I think that that is one of the biggest things we have to own, like you were talking about, is owning your actions. For me, a big value is respect. And so if I require respect from somebody else and hope that somebody would assume positive intent of me, or like, I didn't even realize this was happening, there's so much going on in my life, like that was not my intention.

Yeah.

And so I have to own that. was not intentional if I hurt you, and if I did, I want to know, then it is my responsibility to carry that vice versa as well. And so what would be the most respectful way to have this conversation, to navigate these things? And, and the truth is, there's so many layers we never know about somebody else's story. They could be navigating a very dark time. And so they're just like using the little bit of energy they can to show up. And so If we just ask those clarifying questions. And I feel like that's a key part of navigating conflict is instead of saying, you always, you do, you never, you never, and making these statements of like, you think that I blah, blah, blah, blah. Instead, let's ask a question like, tell me how you feel about the fact that I took on this project. Tell me how you feel, or what are your thoughts on Me traveling with my girlfriends alone, like, etc., instead of just assuming. An assumption can really feel very personal. And I have been there and I am— it's actually something I'm working on is I didn't realize how much I can sometimes assume in small things. And so how can we shift that small assumption into a question? Because that's essentially what it is. And so ultimately, we're all on this journey together. We're all being, like, learning. And so whether you're building a relationship, whether you're growing a friendship or growing in your career, you're never going to have something that never has conflict.

Yeah.

And so whenever we don't approach conflict, we are robbing our relationships from growth because that's essentially what's happening there. We're all learning what's important to you, what's important to me, How can we go together in this season? Or, what are you going through right now? How can I support you? Here's where I'm at. Let's move forward together.

Another— I, I love that, like, the piece too about the assumptions and turning assumptions into questions is so powerful. And like, just getting clarity, because I think a lot of time with conflict, when you're approaching conflict, it's usually due to lack of clarity. Like, I rarely believe that anyone in my life that has hurt me up to this point did it intentionally. They didn't, they weren't, maybe they weren't even clear of how their actions hurt me. So then it's my responsibility to decide, do I want to bring that to that person? How do I want to approach it? And how can I get clarity with them on like, did you mean to do that? Did you know that you did that? Like, that hurt me. How do we move forward? Something else I wanted to bring up as you were talking. And something I think is important to not do whenever you are approaching conflict with people is dogpiling. And so when we do not— I think there's a lot of different ways we can approach conflict. We can avoid it, we can shut down, we can fight, flight. Like, there's all these different, like, default tendencies. But something that, um, can happen, and I have tried to navigate this with people in my life, is when you're dealing with— maybe you're passive-aggressive or you're dealing with someone else that's passive-aggressive— what tends to happen is they start stacking on evidence. So I'll give you a very specific example without giving you too many details. Someone in my life who is passive-aggressive, and they will not tell me when I've upset them, and they'll wait a couple of months or a year or 2 years, and then they'll have a big like blowup towards me. And then what's happening is they've dogpiled all of the things that I've done without my knowledge that have upset them. I didn't know it. They'll dogpile and they'll say, not only is it this, but it's also— and they're like, here's a rap sheet of all the different things that I didn't do right, or I upset them or I didn't meet their expectations and whatever it is. I have also been guilty of this in my relationship because I learned that I am in my early 20s, in the early stages of my relationship, I would also have passive-aggressive tendencies. Now I'm just assertive and aggressive. Now I'm just like, here it is. But I struggled with being passive-aggressive because there's a part of you that's like, you should know. You know, you should just know that you've hurt me. And I'm just going to like say these little subtle things and all these undertones until you get the point that I'm upset with you. And I'm going to do it for so long that then you ask me what's wrong. And then I'll list out my rap sheet of all the things that I'm upset about. Please do not dogpile on people that you love. If you're upset with someone, have the conversation. And if you're upset with several things, Try to have that conversation over multiple, like, sit-downs, you know, like when you're approaching conflict, try to make it about the one thing that happened. Like, as you mentioned earlier, being specific, when this happened, this is how I felt and here's why. When you pile so many things into a conflict conversation, I just don't think it's respectful. And I don't think that it ends up having any sort of like compassion or repair. Somebody's feeling absolutely terrible and someone's feeling vindictive.

Mm-hmm.

They're like, I'm going to show you how upset I am at you. And like then the other person is probably blindsided. They don't know what to say. They're like, wow, I had no idea you felt like this. It's been years. Like whatever the situation is. So that's my, you know, ownership over my Past passive-aggressive tendencies and also my experiences with dogpiling, because it can— on the receiving end, it can just be really hurtful.

That is so powerful that you shared that, because I feel like dealing with the different types of personalities in that can also be really, really hard when navigating conflict.

Yeah.

And in that, I feel like that is specifically the motivator to share conflict, because in one of those scenarios Um, it's almost like I, I picture myself in that moment of like having someone dogpile on me. Side note, I had never heard of dogpiling. That's why I was smiling. I was like, okay, we're learning a new word today.

We're learning a new term. I don't know if it's like a technical term or a psychological term, but it's an Alexis term. Urban Dictionary.

Um, but one of those, in— if someone does dogpile and share a ton of information it almost feels like an identity thing.

Yeah.

You are this kind of person because you can no longer go back 2 years to fix that. But in the other scenario, if you're like, hey, last week whenever you did this, this is how it hurt me and all that, you are showing specific love and care for the relationship that you never want it to get to the point where there is no return, or like there is so much hurt. And so if we're able to reframe conflict as the most loving thing we can do in our relationship to grow, and also what will destroy our confidence in those relationships, our trust in other people— and that's on us, because if they don't know it, if we don't give them a chance to repair, to love on you, to know what's important to you, because sometimes conflict doesn't happen because someone terribly messed up. It happens because we have different needs. My birthday might be super important to me, and maybe I'm with a partner that grew up with not celebrating birthdays. And so I might be deeply hurt because, not because of the birthday, but because I feel like they don't love me because I was taught that if you love someone, you celebrate them. And for them, they're like, well, happy birthday. I love you. I show you I love you every single day, and I do all these other things. And so I feel like that's also robbing and like you are slowly killing your relationships by not communicating what it is that's hurting you and what it is that you need. And yeah, it's so hard and it's so vulnerable, but very necessary.

Agreed. Let's talk, before we talk about repair, let's talk about the point of no return. So when we do, She goes, okay.

Deep breath.

When we do have conflict, I think that we need to know our own line. And like, if you are having multiple conversations with someone and you're trying to make it work and you're trying to like fix it, you're trying to repair— maybe you've broken trust or maybe someone else has broken trust with you— I do think that there comes a point where like you can't weaponize someone's mistakes. Like there needs to be like a path forward. So if someone has hurt you and you weaponize that every time something happens, you're like, well, this is just who you are. This is, this is what you did and this is what you'll always be. That's not healthy. It's not helpful. And even if that's how you feel, you need to get support for that and not bring that into the relationship. And I think that when certain conflict arises and when certain lines have been crossed, I do think that conflict will show you almost like a litmus test. It will show you how the other person values the relationship and maybe even how you value the relationship. And sometimes conflict will show you that it's time to resolve and it's time to let the relationship go. It's time to put space. It's time to take a break. It's time to cold turkey, like whatever the situation is. I think it's okay to give yourself permission if you've really put in effort to make it better and to really try to repair. If you need to just end a relationship, I think sometimes that's on the other side of conflict that we don't talk about. It's like how to make it better and heal.

Yes.

And I think you also have to know yourself well enough to know, I have tried everything that I can and we've navigated this conflict for X amount of time. And it's not getting better. And so I'm gonna, you know, put some space between us, or this isn't working out, or whatever the situation is. So I just— if you need to hear that, I want to tell you that, that it's okay that if you've been trying for a long time and you've been navigating conflict with your family or with your partner or with a friend, and you're just really not seeing healing from those conversations, it's okay to walk away if you need to.

Absolutely. I am so glad we brought this up because no amount of communication and overcommunication and all the hard work can put in the work for somebody else. And I think that something that also helped me, um, in my hard season, especially if you're dealing with anyone that, um, just maybe hasn't gotten to a healthy place emotionally, that can also be really hard. something that has helped me is being very specific when it comes to accountability and what's the next step. And so sometimes people putting in the max effort is subjective.

Yeah.

And so some people might be like, well, I tried everything I could. And then you're like, you tried, you did literally nothing. And so being able to list specific things of like, okay, moving forward, If you, you broke trust in X way, and here is what we need moving forward to repair. And it's not going to be a perfect road, but at least if there's steps in that direction, you're able to do that. But whenever you're having this conversation again, you can say, last time that we had this conversation, we talked together and we agreed together About these 3 things. Where are you at with them? And I think that is where we're able to really hold people accountable. And whenever it comes to the 3rd, the 4th, the 5th, however long you feel comfortable with that, um, terms, and obviously considering your safety and considering the gravity of the situation, being able to say, how do we move forward if for the last 5 conversations we have together listed things And nothing has happened. So maybe it's time to seek professional help. Maybe that's when you maybe go to a therapist with your family member or your partner or your friend to be like, what's going on here? Because there could be things of like that triggers a deep fear in them and they're just avoiding it. And so are they willing to at least see a professional to help them through that? Or at the same time, for you to know Do you need some space? What are the next steps that now you need to take if that other party isn't wanting to resolve with you?

Yeah, I think that's really important, like bringing up the repair part. Sometimes repair happens from one conversation, like, you know, let's be honest with each other. This is how I'm feeling. This is how you're feeling. Um, let's make a safe space to talk about it. And then at the end, like How are you feeling? I'm feeling good. I'm feeling lighter. Like, you know, is there anything specific that you want me to do more of or less of so that we make sure that we don't find ourselves back in this situation again? And I think sometimes it's as simple as that. And sometimes like the gravity of the hurt requires more repair or more accountability or more steps towards that repair as Astrid kind of listed out. But I think just knowing On the other side of conflict, being clear on how you want to move forward in the relationship and what's your next touchpoint. Or, if you're having too many conversations around conflict, it's too heavy. There have been times in my relationship with my husband, pre-marriage and during marriage, where we're navigating a lot of different conflict and I need space from not him, but from the conflict. Like, hey, we're not going to solve this today. And we're also not going to solve this this week. And I need to take a break from this conversation for a couple of weeks. And let's resurface this. It is important. I am not avoiding it. But I can't keep kind of running circles around this. And so I need to have some space. And that's how I want to move forward until we're both in a place where we feel lighter And we can discuss this with a fresh perspective. Sometimes that's how you want to move forward navigating conflict. So just being creative, it doesn't have to be scary. It doesn't have to be this like heavy 3-step system. It's just finding what works for you and the other person. And, and, and how can you honor your side of that? And then how can they honor their side?

Absolutely. And when it comes to upholding those values that we have when navigating I would highly recommend adding to those. Taking space is always a card on the table. And so I think that whenever that hasn't been a conversation prior in a friendship, in a relationship, it can feel like rejection. It can feel like maybe the other person is running away. But being able to communicate that and be like, hey, I care about us so much. that I really need to take some space to process it so that I can come back and do this in a healthy way. And so I find that a lot of people will take the space but not communicate the why. And the other partner feels like, I'm just left here to solve the mess by myself, or I feel rejected. And I think going back to navigating repair, I think if you're on the side of someone that has hurt somebody else, being able to come already with, hey, I am so sorry that I hurt you. I know that this was not okay. Here's how I am planning to move forward in this. Here's where I can see that like there was a gap and I will be better at this. And if I— if you see me not doing that, please call me out. I will be mentally ready to receive that. In a positive note? And what else can I do to help repair that trust from your side? And so I think whenever you're able to take that ownership, the person doesn't have to bring that to the table first. And you still leave an open door for like, however it is that I hurt you, like maybe you hurt them so bad that they just need the weekend off away from you, or they need like some time away. And we have to respect that there's consequences to our actions. And there's consequences to our words. And that's why we own what we say and we own what we do. And we're not going to be perfect and we will mess up. And so sometimes whenever we're thinking about conflict, it's, it's the— we can talk about the other side doing something to us and what we have to, what we need for that repair. But I think it's just as important to have in the forefront that we sometimes need to do the repair and have that list ready to go.

Amen. I think it takes off the mental load of the person that is hurting, um, because they're just trying to navigate their own hurt and they're trying to communicate it with you. Like, and so if you can come to the conversation with like genuine compassion and apology for the situation, and you have already kind of thought through like how you might want to make it better Or how you want to avoid it in the future by doing these things. I think it takes the mental load off of the other person, and I think it also just shows like genuine care. Like, hey, I realize that this hurt your feelings. I'm really sorry. Here's what I want to do moving forward. And then the other person is like, that would be great. Like, that's you know. So I think that is also a sense of relief too when the other person can come with like. You know, here's how I want to move forward, make it better. But yeah, I think this is such an important conversation in those in-between seasons of our lives, because when we're in between, there can be friction. And when there's friction, sometimes conflict is a result of friction because we're not clear, we don't know what we want, we're frustrated, or we're overwhelmed, or we're stressed. Like, whatever the situation is in those in-between moments. And so I love this conversation, and I'm glad we're having it on the podcast because I think we just—we really covered a lot of like hopefully really helpful ways to address conflict that you don't have to do it by yourself. People care about you. People want to know if you've hurt them. People want to make it better. Like that is true, and I think whenever we can approach conflict in that lens, it becomes like a tool. for growth, as you had mentioned, Astrid, and less of this like big scary, oh my gosh, I'm gonna throw up, um, I can't do this, versus like, I want to make our relationship better and so I need to have this conversation. And so if you've been listening and there's a conversation that you need to have with somebody, this is your sign.

Oh my gosh. Yes, it has definitely been such a great conversation. I feel like this is a great refresher for me. And it's also been wonderful to hear the different ways that you have navigated conflict and like learn from you too. And the last thing I'll say on a lighter note too, is part of repair is also like, how can you celebrate afterwards that you navigated that conflict that you're past it? Like, go get ice cream together, go and like Have a weekend off and just not talk about what happened. There can be so many heavy emotions and that can really shoot a lot of cortisol through our bodies, create a lot of knots and stress on our neck. There's just so much dysregulation that can happen. And being able to just repair yourself from that and being able to just have a fun weekend and be like, all right, I'm proud of us. We navigated that so well and we're growing. So I love this conversation. Next week we will be wrapping up with our communication theme with expectations. So how do we set expectations? How do we communicate it? And lots more there. So if you are loving this theme or if you have any questions for us, please connect over on our Instagram @inbetween.pod. You can always reach out to me as well @astridjohannaphoto.

Or you can connect with me @alexisteichmiller on Instagram. And if you're feeling extra generous and you've been listening to the pod and enjoying it, we would love for you to leave us a review on Spotify or on iTunes. Spotify is really easy. It's just like rating it on a star. And then on iTunes, you can rate it as well as leave a written review if you have some time. So thank you so much for being here, and we'll see you next week. Bye.