The Art of Saying No: Therapist Mary Beth Somich on Boundaries and Family Baggage

Welcome to The In Between Podcast. I'm Astrid.

And I'm Alexis. Join us as we explore the messy yet beautiful in-between seasons of life.

We'll discuss business, relationships, wellness, and everything in between to help you become the highest version of yourself.

Let's dive in.

Hello friends, and welcome back to another episode of The In Between Podcast. This is one of your hosts, Astrid.

And the other half, Alexis. And we are so excited to have Mary Beth Samich with us today. She's a licensed therapist. She focuses on family dynamics, boundaries, and anxiety. We all know that we need help and just support in these areas. And I have known Mary Beth for, I want to say, 4 years now. We were internet friends, we were in a mastermind together, and I've just watched you grow so much as an individual as well as your business. And so we're just so excited to have you on today. Thank you for being here.

Thank you for having me. I'm excited.

Oh, us too. Us too. So I think anytime you are in support roles, like being a therapist, you are helping other people. And I always think whenever I hear of people in these different kinds of jobs, I'm like, what sparked your desire to want to be a therapist and want to support people? And help people? Tell us where that origin story was for you.

Yeah, that's an easy one for me. It definitely started in my hometown where I grew up. A lot of people don't know this about me, but I grew up in a really tiny town on the border of Vermont, more cows than people. There's one stoplight and a McDonald's. And if you want to eat something more fancy like Olive Garden or Applebee's, you drive 45 minutes, right? So a very different place than I live now, but that also speaks to the limited resources. resources that were there. Um, like, the median income of a family is $30,000 for an entire family. And so therapy is not in the budget, and it's also not even accessible. And so I saw that on a community level, even on a personal, like, family level, and really became— I just knew something was not right. Like, there, there has to be, like, more support in for this. And really started kind of digging into psychology and therapy and saying this would be a really great career and a way to serve people. And I joke always that like instead of reading Cosmopolitan as a teen, I was reading Psychology Today, just like learning about behavior, like geeking out on it. So I have known that I wanted to do this for, um, a really long time.

I love that. Was there, was there a specific aspect of your own life or even just through your studies that helped you land or kind of niche into family dynamics and boundaries?

Yeah.

I mean, I've just always been fascinated in family dynamics. I think part of it had to do with— I grew up kind of around the foster care system too. And so that was really fascinating to me, foster care and adoptive families and the dynamics that play out there between birth families and adoptive families. And so that was part of it. And I mean, everybody looks at their own family, right? And is just curious about how, how things got to where they were. Um, and so a passion of mine now is in working with individuals who are really unpacking enmeshment in their family. And a lot of people don't know what the word enmeshment means. So I like to share that it really just is meant to describe a family system that's lacking in boundaries. And there's a lot of unwritten rules in the family that, you know, if you don't abide by them, there's these unspoken consequences. And, um, it really kind of rears its ugly head during big life transitions like going to college, getting married, having children. It can look like possessiveness amongst, like, in-laws, let's say. So I joke that, like, Give me a monster-in-law and that's my jam. I love working with that family dynamic. So yeah, that's kind of what I do now.

Oh my gosh, that is amazing. I am a wedding photographer. So as soon as you said the big life changes, it automatically started playing in my brain, all the different scenarios that I see on wedding days, moms taking over, in-laws Just, just like with the dynamic with their sons and then with the bride. So this is so fascinating and very much needed that you niche down on that too. Um, now it's my understanding that you've also now grown your team, so it's not just the therapy side of things, but now you're also on the management side. So what led you to choose that path, um, now? And like, how has that all been?

Well, first I just want to acknowledge you as a wedding photographer because every time I post on social media about enmeshment, it's the wedding photographers that come out of the woodwork and they're commenting on all the enmeshment posts and they're like, oh my gosh, I have a story. And so you really are on the front lines of witnessing like the big moments that people are then unpacking in sessions with me. Um, so kudos to you for just kind of managing that. Um, but yeah, so I really shifted into private practice. around the pandemic because what happened was clearly a lot of people were in mental health crisis during that time, and I was seeing so many clients. I also found out I was pregnant during the pandemic and was like, okay, this is not sustainable for me to see this many clients. And I knew I was going to go on maternity leave. And so I really wanted to handpick the person that I would kind of hand off my clients to for 3 months while I was out. And I found a great therapist to do that with and then said, wow, this is like, it's so nice to have a team and not be solo and by myself all the time. And it's so helpful to just like bringing in more business and serving more people in our community this way. And so it's kind of expanded from there. I'm really picky with who I bring on my team. They have to be a really great personality fit and have similar kind of A similar mission to help people. And, um, so yeah, that's where we've landed now. And we're a team of 7, including myself. And then I have an amazing admin assistant who it took me way too long to hire and ask for help. And so that has been a game changer now that I've really leaned into that. Um, but yeah, I've definitely shifted a bit more into managing the practice. I still see anywhere from 10 to 15 clients a week, and most of them are kind of long-term maintenance clients that I've really just built a relationship with over like 8 years of being a therapist. But yeah, it's going well.

That's amazing. It's so cool to see how much you've grown the practice, your own business in the last 4 years. You also do business coaching for therapists. Like you also have an education side of your business, which I think is so fascinating where you help other therapists grow their practices. Can you talk about like some of the common challenges that therapists have when it comes to growing their practices and like then how you kind of fill that gap for them?

Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because sometimes I forget, like, I am literally a business coach also.

Literally.

So even this week, yeah, this week I had 3 business coaching clients. Um, and so I kind of weave them in into my therapy spots too. So it's a good mix. Like that 12 to 15 hours is like therapy clients and business coaching clients. Um, but a lot of times business coaching clients will come to me because they want to launch a course. So I have 2 courses for therapists on growing social media and also pursuing paid partnerships that are ethical as a licensed therapist because like you can't promote everything as a licensed therapist. Um, so I say no a lot to partnerships, but, um, yeah, so I do that and mostly they're coming for help with courses. They're coming for help growing their Instagram or their social media presence, developing group coaching programs, a lot of diversification of income. And And I think our therapy programs in grad school, like, really don't teach us how to be entrepreneurs and business-minded. And so there's a real gap there for therapists in, like, how do I grow in these ways outside of just providing one-on-one therapy? Because at some point you need to scale. There's only so many hours in a day. And if you want to serve more people, then that's kind of the route to go.

Absolutely. That's amazing how you've grown your business and made it so sustainable. And even in the therapy realm, how that is so needed. And even I run into a lot of videos on TikTok that have helped me identify things. So I'm sure like the social media aspect has been huge to connecting with everyone. So going a bit deeper into what you've niched down to with your family dynamics, I'm curious, like, how should someone approach if their family overall has a lot of expectations out of them, if they, um, spoken or not spoken, and they're choosing to maybe walk a different path, or they're trying to discover what is the path for me? How should they navigate that, and how should they have those conversations?

And to add on to that, we get a lot of listeners that ask us advice on Like boundaries and like, I want to do this with my career, but I'm scared of what my friends and family are going to think. Like someone just wrote in, they left a traditional teaching job to start a nonprofit for educational inequality. And like the people in their support system don't get it and are like really kind of being quite negative towards that decision. So like, I feel like this is so relevant for our listeners because we get asked these questions all the time.

Yeah. Yeah, that makes so much sense. And I'm glad you're asking this particular question because I think what people are really asking are, what are my own wants and needs? And when you come from an enmeshed family dynamic, it is incredibly hard to identify those. It seems so basic and so simple, but your wants and needs become so fused with the wants and needs of your family members that are making a lot of like governing decisions in your life and setting a lot of expectations for you that it does become really blurry. Like, do I want to go to business school? Or have I been expected to go to business school because my dad's successful and he did it? And so there's a lot of unpacking that for people. And a lot of the work that I'm doing with them foundationally is, who are you? Getting to know yourself and your own wants and your own needs outside of expectation and custom and tradition even. Do these expectations, customs, and traditions work for you? anymore, or are they actually contributing towards resentment in your relationships? That's a big one too. And I, I feel like we can't talk about enmeshment without also acknowledging the cultural piece to it.

Yeah.

A lot of the families that I work with, um, are Catholic, Jewish, and Indian. And these are like— there's a lot of enmeshment in these cultures, and I think that, um, There's, you know, you have to be culturally competent to unpack that with them too.

Absolutely. I was actually just going to bring that up because as you were talking, I was thinking of my own Hispanic culture and how there's a lot of very intense expectations, especially on the oldest siblings to basically act as like other parents. And I know there's similar cultures too, where like the expectations are so high. And so what would be like your recommendation? Like once they know each other, they've done the work with you and they're like, okay, this is what I want for myself. And it looks different than what maybe my parents wanted. I think specifically in those cultures, it's scary because it's almost like you're letting the family down or you're not honoring or respecting someone's memory or legacy. And there's a lot more dynamics at play there too. Yeah.

And so letting the family down, putting that against letting yourself down and how that feels for you when that happens. Um, you know, it might feel like you're betraying the family, but are, are you betraying yourself to avoid betraying the family? And how does that feel for you every day? And so having those conversations, but I think more practically, like people just need to know how to, how to set a boundary and how to have these skills because they weren't modeled for them for generations even. And so there is a freebie. I don't know if we can link it in show notes or somewhere, but, um, it's like my most popular freebie. It's called the Boundary Setting Blueprint. And it's like the most simple 3-step script for setting a boundary. Essentially, the first step is that you're leading with validation. You're really— because you never want to just counter someone with a criticism. Like, they're not going to hear you. They're not going to listen to you and lean into that conversation. So really validate just even their desire. Like, I know you want what's best for me. Um, I really appreciate the time that we spent together, validating comments in that direction. And then you're gonna set the boundary here in the middle with usually with an I statement, right? And then at the end, if you can, and sometimes you can't, but many, I, you know, encourage people to be creative. Is there a way that you can kind of like lean in or compromise per se, or tell the person, While I can't do this, here is what I can offer and still be true to myself, um, as kind of like an offering to them. So.

I love that. We will absolutely have that linked in the show notes for anyone that wants to walk through that. It's also quite like simple to wrap your head around, also sometimes difficult to do. I want to, I want to take a step back in that when you aren't in an enmeshed relationship, and this could be, you know, with your family, at work, with friendships, like you're feeling some sort of enmeshment and there's that fear. Sometimes you don't necessarily even know that your boundaries are being crossed. So how do you identify when— like, how do you even know a boundary is being crossed for you? I know it kind of starts with knowing yourself, but are there like signs that we can look for that's like, oh, I don't even know that that's a boundary or that that feels prickly to me, but something feels off. How do we kind of bring those things to the surface so that we can build the awareness of like, oh, okay, a boundary's being crossed. Then I want to decide what I want to do with it.

Yeah. Usually what I observe is that that feeling is resentment in some way. It's resentment or it's dread or it's just like a lack of alignment. Like, this doesn't feel good for me. I hate doing this. And that usually signals that it's an expectation. And I always tell people boundaries are compassionate, especially women in our culture, I think, are taught that boundaries are aggressive. There's, you know, there's passive communication, there's aggressive communication, but then there's this like lovely middle ground of assertiveness in the middle. And I think that has been branded as aggressive. for a lot of women when it's really just like the healthiest, most moderate form of communication. And so really coaching women on how to move towards assertiveness, because when you are not in that healthy middle ground of assertiveness, what happens is you jump from passive right over it into aggressive. And then people are just confused, like, what happened here? Like, and so it's because we weren't true to ourselves in this healthy middle ground of assertiveness. We were too afraid. And if we could just get comfortable there, then it would be so protective and compassionate in terms of our preserving our relationships and not harming them. We think we're preserving them by being passive, but we're not. Hmm.

I love that reframe around boundaries because they do sound so scary and they sound, they sound like a wall. Like you're, you're putting up a wall in between you and the other person rather than I'm extending the hand, hold my hand. This is what I want. This is what you want. So I love that reframe around boundaries. And I also feel like a lot of anxiety can pop up whenever we're getting ready to set a boundary or talk to our family and say, hey, this no longer aligns to me, or I'm not going to be home for the holidays. My family's going to do something different. So how should our listeners approach all of that anxiety and all those emotions that can come up when you're staying true to yourself and you're trying to set those boundaries with your family?

Yeah, I think the script really helps with that. I think it can really reduce some of the anxiety because a lot of the anxiety comes with, how do I deliver this? And so having just like, you know, steps 1, 2, 3 and a script for that, it can reduce a lot of that anxiety. Um, and when you look at the script, it's like This is, this is kind, this is compassionate, and, and practice it that way. I think it's like the lack of practice that creates anxiety because you might deliver it in a way that feels more aggressive to the person if there isn't that preparation involved.

Mm-hmm.

And then things can go kind of haywire. There's also the very real possibility that no matter how kindly and eloquently you deliver this boundary, the person on the other side is not going to like it. And that is— and we kind of— I work through a lot of, um, codependent emotions with my clients in that way, because enmeshment and codependence are basically like siblings. And so when I think of codependence, I think— well, or challenging codependence, I should say— it's like, I can be okay even if you're not okay. And so with my clients, I'm like, let's make sure that you can be okay even when someone else doesn't like what you're saying to them or what you have to deliver. And that's not insensitivity because you are being sensitive, you're hearing them, but it's not going to rule your emotional landscape. So, and that's just like kind of— Oh my God. Widening a window of tolerance of that experience. And that's so new in enmeshed families, new territory. And I'll also remind them, like, if someone really pushes back on your boundary, you know, it's usually because your lack of boundaries served them in some way.

I, I like not— we're both— Ashton and I are both nodding so much.

I know.

I, I think that there are aspects of this that I've experienced in my own personal life. And so I, I like deeply understand this. How, how do you, how do you navigate when you are setting a boundary? And you are practicing the script, you're being so compassionate, you're being kind, like your, your tone of voice is very thoughtful, it's very soft, it's very approachable. And the, the person on the other side ends up taking the situation and making it about them. And they're, they're basically centering the entire situation around themselves. How do you navigate that? Because you've, you verbally said, this is the boundary. You've worked through the anxiety. You're stating what you need, and then there's kind of the after verbal communication that's like a little uncharted. It's like they're not taking this well. They're centering the situation on them. Do I take physical distance? Do I say, "Hey, I I've said what I needed to say. I'm going to take a step away from this conversation if it's on on the phone." Like, how do you kind of wrap this up? when it's not being taken well and the other party is like really centering it on them?

Yeah. And I think you have to be prepared for that sometimes depending on the boundary that you're setting. It's so deeply interwoven. And I think to understand that reaction, you have to understand what usually the basis of enmeshment is. To give a little backstory into that, what I typically find, and this is not for all families, but Many families is that there is a lack of emotional needs being met in like a parental marriage. And so one parent is really looking to their child to fill that emotional void and fulfill those needs. And when the child— the child is supposed to help what we call healthily differentiate In adolescence. So when you're a teenager, it's really healthy, really developmentally normal for you to challenge some of your family's traditions, beliefs, customs, and not even just challenge them, but explore what feels right for you. And to really be supported in that process as you start to kind of separate in a healthy way gradually from the family into being your own adult and not a child of the family. And in enmeshed families, that doesn't happen because it's so threatening to that parent who really needs their emotional needs met by their child. And so at any point when the child is, you know, you could be 40 years old doing this for the first time, and you're trying to healthily differentiate from that parent, and that parent is feeling so threatened, and so alone, and so desperate for their emotional needs to be maintained. And so a lot of enmeshed work is working within the marriage of those parents on like whether that can be repaired, And having that partner who's really retreated out of it stepping up to create freedom for the children in the dynamic. And it's it's very odd because everyone comes to me, and a lot of times it's the mother that feels like the overbearing parent, just kind of statistically. And they're like, "My mom is such a problem." But I'm like, "Let's look at your dad. Like, where is he? Right emotionally." So oof, yeah, that's like it's so interesting to look at that dynamic.

So is it in a— in that case, like, are you inviting also the parents into this discussion, or is it on that adult child to like navigate that then with the parents?

It really depends on the client, like whether their parents are invested in this, um, and want to be part of this. The— my favorite thing is when, you know, a couple who's maybe in their 50s, 60s, they're like, my child just got married and had kids, and like, it seems like they don't want to spend time with us. Can you help us? And I'm like, yes, like, thank you for coming here. This is so proactive. Like, that's amazing. That's like my favorite thing when the parents are coming to me because they're aware that something's off. And but I would say that's like a 1%. And then there's like the 99% of parents who are like, This is unfair. And the child is coming to me being like, I can't handle them in this dynamic. So—

Oh my gosh. Yeah. So many different aspects in that too. And I think our generation is one that is getting even more plugged into therapy and coaching. And honestly, it's hard because I feel like we can realize those patterns in our parents or the people around us. And maybe our parents just aren't in a space to get that therapy, but you just kind of have to sit with like, oh, okay, my mom's just very fearful and I can see why from her childhood. And it kind of just sits heavy too in that processing. And so what would be like your biggest advice for our listeners where, as we're processing what our family dynamics were and we're trying to lead into healthier relationships ourselves, Mm-hmm. What should we do in that transition and to maybe help protect that we may repeat the same patterns as well?

I think just making this step towards introspection in a kind of vulnerable and open-minded way is already putting you ahead of that curve. A lot of people will come into therapy and say like, I just don't want to repeat the patterns of my parents. And it's like, well, you're already here. There's already less likelihood of that because there's an awareness and insight around it. And And I know you mentioned, like, I love that you mentioned the self-compassion that can be formed for your family members, even when they're doing things that don't make sense to you. But, you know, saying like, you know, my mom's mother passed away when she was a child, and she didn't have a healthy attachment with her mother. And like, this informs now our relationship. And like, I can create some compassion around that. So really having a safe and vulnerable, open-minded place to just explore. explore how intergenerationally these patterns have formed and taking a new perspective.

Question— I have so many questions actually, but the one, the one that's come to mind, just to kind of like wrap up the boundaries enmeshment conversation before we move, move on: when do you decide to either go non-contact, like no contact, or I need a break from the relationship. And that's not, we're gonna go no contact forever, but I need, you know, I need some space and creating that emotional distance. When, when do you get to that place? And how do you honor the fact that maybe that's what you are needing? It's a very difficult place to be.

It is. Yeah. And no child really wants that, right? I think that's something to remember. There's a lot of talk out there that kids are just cutting off their parents right and left, right? But what's not talked about is like the dozens of attempts to just feel heard that come before that happens. And, and we know based on like attachment research that that is just one of the most painful ruptures for a child of a parent at any age. So this is never like a first choice, right? Um, there's actually a great community called Calling Home. Sit With Wit on Instagram runs it. Um, and it's for that, essentially, for kids who— kids, they're usually adults. Um, adults who have, um, had to be estranged from a parent because— and it's usually because it feels unsafe. to some degree, and that it just— the disappointment in the parents' responses is just so overwhelming and feels so unsafe that it's just dysregulating on a regular basis and really disruptive of life, unfortunately. Um, so yeah, I— and, and there's, um, you know, you can be led through that process from a therapist. It's a really hard thing to go through alone, so I would recommend having some support and community around that. But I mean, usually, even when you try to do that, there's often just like these attempts from the parent that feel disrespectful. Like you might say, listen, this is really what I need you to address with me before we can continue to have a relationship. And then a lot of my clients will be like, yep, they just tried to FaceTime us on Christmas after I said that. And like, there's just like this, like, disrespect of that boundary, or like they're just doing stuff anyway. And still not respecting that ask. And so it's like a continued reinforcement. It's really a process. It's really never just a wall and a cutoff thing.

Wow.

Yeah.

I feel like I hear that a lot too with some of my friends that have younger kids and they've chosen to do things differently with their kids. And they're like, hey, we don't want them to have any gifts for Christmas.

Or they—

we don't want you to feed them X, Y, and Z. And they're like, well, I'm the grandparents, like I'm supposed to spoil them, quote unquote, and just completely walk through those boundaries. And that can feel so hard because you're trying to build your own family and your own culture within your family. But then also, like your parents, it's almost like you're a parent to them too, because you're like, hey, you're not doing this. And so what would be like some of your tips On the flip side, like, when you do have a healthy relationship with your parents, but they're also learning how to navigate this new season where now they're grandparents, for example, like, what would be some good tips to implement when you know there's going to be a season of change in those families?

Yeah, to what you're speaking to, I mean, I'm a young parent myself, right? I have a 3-year-old. We're doing some things differently than our parents did and communicating that to them. Thankfully, they're pretty respectful and occasionally they're not, right? It is usually around like junk food or screen time. And I have to say to myself how, okay, this, they're here for, you know, 3 or 5 days usually. This is not going to totally change the landscape of my daughter's life, right?

Mm-hmm.

And so like sometimes does it feel disrespectful if they're hyping her up on sugar and now she isn't going to bed on time? Yeah. And, and maybe you have a conversation about that and maybe you don't, but there's really also a checks and balances system of like, how important is this to me for 3 or 5 days? Um, now if they live next to you, that's a totally different dynamic. Um, mine do not. So I'm like able to get in a mindset where I'm like, you know, things might not go how we do them for this amount of time. And there's acceptance around that. I think there is definitely, there needs to be some grace for difference. But yeah, you kind of have to decide, pick your battles and what's worth it.

Yeah, that makes sense. You being a mom, how has your journey with motherhood surfaced some of your own stuff? Because I'm not a mom and I think that that's one of the aspects of motherhood that is a little scary to me is like, is this going to bring up things I'm going to have to deal with?

Like emotional stuff.

What has your journey been with that?

Yeah. Okay. So I feel like there's 2 camps here that I really have identified. And there's the one that's like, I wasn't as aware of my stuff Until I became a parent, which I think is what you're talking about. It's like all of a sudden I became this parent, I had this life-changing experience, and now I'm looking at my childhood so differently. And, um, and that might be really dysregulating for some folks, and then they need to kind of process that in therapy. Um, I had kind of an opposite experience where I was like very aware of my childhood wounds. I don't know if it's because I was Training in therapy for so long. But I was very much aware of them before becoming a mother. And then becoming a mother actually was so healing for me in that way. I was like, there is nothing this child could have done to deserve kind of what I went through. And so that was like me understanding that, me experiencing that on the other side as the parent. was so healing for me to just like release that. So yeah, it's— I think it could be either.

That was healing for me to hear because honestly the way that I pictured it was like, when I— I do want to be a mom someday, so I'm like, when I get there, I have to be mentally so prepped because I will be dealing with my own stuff and then like trying to help this child not get traumatized so they don't have to go through as much therapy as I've had to go through. So hearing a different perspective of that, of like how much it's healed you, is so beautiful to hear. So what do you, what do you feel like were some key things to, to get to that healthy mindset and relationship? Like, is it just awareness and day-to-day, or how did you navigate that?

Yeah, I think it's awareness. I think it's insight, and I think it's looking at your relationship with your parents and how it felt. Too. Um, being aware of attachment, healthy attachment, attachment wounds, um, and how those can play out in your life, but also in parenthood, um, and how to promote like more secure attachment in your children. Also doing a lot of values work beforehand. Like, I really wanted to connect with that. I actually worked with, um, I shift. I think all therapists should have therapists. Don't trust one that doesn't. That's kind of my motto. And so I've had different therapists for different seasons and needs.

Mm-hmm.

And so a few months before I had my daughter, I, um, started working with a perinatal therapist who really specialized in pregnancy, postpartum, birth, um, parenthood, because I was like, I've never been a parent before and I need more support during this season. And thank goodness I did, because after birth I had a lot to unpack. Um, but yeah, so she really helped me do like a value, like a motherhood values And I like still have a list of what those are, but just having the awareness of like, I want to live by these values in motherhood was so connecting for me.

Wow. I love that. I love that the lens in which the values that you bring to parenthood and bring to motherhood might be different than your values as an individual.

And your parents. Yes. Yes.

And, and, and in your marriage, like that's going to evolve and take shape more once you have kids. I, I kind of want to talk a little bit more about the attachment styles. You've mentioned it a couple of times. We actually had a question, uh, during our advice column last week's episode on attachment styles. Can you talk a little bit more about that and how that shows up in relationships in general? Not even with family, but just attachment styles in relationships?

Yeah, absolutely. So, there's secure attachment, which I always think this statistic is funny because I want to say it's like 90-some, 92% of people, some crazy high statistic, believe that they're securely attached. And, it's only 3% or 4% of people actually are. We're all delusional. Secure attachment is the healthiest form. It's the one you want to strive for as a goal. But yeah, you just have very kind of like meaningful and connected relationships. Communication is really productive and, and you just feel safe. You feel safe in your relationship and able to explore and share. And whereas avoidant and anxious are usually the most popular. So anxious is the pursuer, like, don't leave me, don't leave me. Are you still here? Are you still there? And ironically, they usually match with an avoidance style because we're looking— there's something subconscious where we're looking for that other person to validate our style. So unfortunately, opposites attract in this area because the avoidant is like, this is too much. I need to retreat and make myself unavailable and go away. It's too overbearing. So you can imagine when anxious and avoidant match, they're almost like reinforcing each other's fear narratives of like, you're leaving me, or you're too much. And it's such a cycle. I honestly, I think like 90% of the population is in this dynamic, at least with someone in their life, usually their partner. And then there's disorganized, which is a mix of anxious and avoidant, you kind of sway in between both of them. And a lot of times disorganized attachment style is formed out of having a parent who either struggles with mental illness or addiction, um, because it's very unreliable and very back and forth. It's like they're yelling at you one minute and then they're like hugging and kissing you the next, and it's really confusing as a child and growing up in that. So those are the 4 types, and you're not stuck with your type is what I like to tell people. You can always be doing therapeutic work to move toward a secure attachment style. And I think there's so much pressure on parents right now to have secure attachment styles with their children when like they don't even have secure attachment styles themselves. And so it's a lot of pressure, and it's not— it's not like this perfect thing you achieve. It's just like you're hopefully working towards it with some healthy behaviors.

I was just curious, like, do you feel like if somebody goes through therapy and then say they become secure attached, securely attached, do you just stay there? Or do you think that you can overall have secure, securely attached tendencies, but then maybe there are certain life scenarios that you kind of go back a little bit into your anxiousness or back a little bit into avoidant. Like, I could imagine maybe having a child could then maybe bring you back to your baseline of attachment to where you were as a kid, and maybe you're like, I'm gonna hold my child a little bit tighter, or I'm gonna run away from my child now.

Oh yeah, attachment styles totally come out in parenting. When you said like, can they shift too. I thought about different partners that you might be with, like, whereas maybe you were stuck in an anxious avoidant cycle with a partner previously, and then you're with a really securely attached partner next, and then you move toward security in that relationship because it feels safer to you and less triggering. So absolutely. And vice versa, maybe you were in the safe relationship first, and then you were in the more avoidant anxious one. And so you're moving towards that. But yeah, it does, we co- regulate and kind of tether to our partner's nervous systems. So if, you know, if there's someone in your life who's more anxious, you're kind of tethering to that a little bit.

That's fascinating. I'm gonna pay attention to like the tethering to another person's attachment because I— you can— I always call it like energy frequency, like the energy that someone's putting out. You can choose to absorb it or you can choose to block it. And I do find that sometimes I can tend to absorb anxious energy and it can sometimes then make me anxious. So I need to like pay attention to maybe what that person's attachment style is in that moment or in that relationship and be more mindful of that. I want to talk about awareness really quick and how— and I'm going to speak from my own, my own, um, journey is when I— I've been in and out of therapy since I was 14. And really went through a pretty intense psychotherapy season in 2022. Sorry, 2021. Apologies. And I remember feeling a lot of guilt and a lot of shame around awareness was bubbling up so many things about myself and how I felt about them was like I felt bad. I felt bad about these different truths. Truths of myself or these different memories or these different characteristics in me. And I would just feel a lot of self-criticism and I didn't hold a ton of space for being compassionate.

Yeah.

And if anyone that is on their self-growth journey and has found themselves kind of in that mental spiral of like, I'm so glad I'm doing this work. But I'm tired and I'm honestly learning more things about myself to dislike. It can feel very overwhelming. And so how do we navigate that? I'm so proud of myself for doing this work and also the dark side of the healing. Does that make sense?

Yes. As you were talking, I am writing furiously because I have so much I have so much to say about this, but I'll start with the fact that in my consent forms, my therapy consent forms, the first thing you read before we even start working together, there's a little disclaimer that like this can start to feel harder or worse before it feels better. And I think of like there are years and years of stuff shoved down, and when you bring them up to the surface, it's really uncomfortable, but it's also— they're closer to being released. released that way too. So thinking of it from that perspective and really owning that about the process of therapy and taking it as an indicator that like things are shifting because you are uncomfortable. Um, there's also something to be said about creating space to have a therapy hangover. Uh, after a really intense session, I've even experienced this too, where you're just kind of like staring at the wall, like you're just like exhausted emotionally. And so like, please don't schedule something like so intense or important or like super social right after your therapy sessions because that is exhausting and really doesn't allow— like, you are creating new neural pathways and your body needs space and time and energy to like honor that process. So give it that as part of like the investment. Um, there might also be seasons where you need to take a break because you're just too overwhelmed, or space your sessions a little bit more. Um, and that's totally okay. It doesn't mean you're like quitting or giving up. It means that you're like learning more about your pace of healing. And then the last thing is, when you mentioned self-compassion, there's this workbook that I really like. It's like a journal-y workbook kind of exercise thing. Switch Research makes it, and it's called the Self-Compassion Journal. I want to say, but it's like really great. I have one in my office that I share with clients when they're struggling in this way of to just kind of cultivate that self-compassion around the healing process. So that's a good resource.

That's, that's so great. I'm so glad you shared that. I recently started a coaching— it was, it's not therapy, it's coaching, but we're diving into somatic practice, which I had never experienced before. And she did warn me about blocking off like my evening, but I think I needed like 3 to 5 business days because it wasn't until like 5 days later I was like, okay, I'm good.

Yeah, literally. Yeah, it's hard.

It's hard. But I believe that you also have included somatic practice into your therapy. And so I would love for you to share What is it? Who is it for? And just anything that our listeners can benefit from it.

Yeah, I think it's for anyone who has a body. Honestly, that's how I would answer that question, especially if you've experienced any intense trauma or feel like you're stuck in a fight, flight, freeze, fawn response at any point. A lot of psychotherapy is from a cognitive lens. We've got CBT, DBT, REBT. They're all very heady. Very top-down approaches, like brain-to-body information flow, when 70% of information is actually body-to-brain, it's bottom-up. So I'm the first to admit that as a therapist, I'm only moving your needle 30%. And that 30% might be super transformational. But if you want to move 90, 100, like there has to be some sort of somatic tool integration. And we can still do that in therapy. There's a number of tools you can use and that I teach my clients on how to integrate their nervous system into their healing work. But then some other outside ones that I like to recommend too are massage, chiropractic, yoga, acupuncture, cold plunging. I mean, there's a Right. Um, saunas, detoxification saunas, like, and just general movement, like moving your body. Um, and I could go down a rabbit hole of talking all about that, but yeah, it's, it's so important to integrate the body-based work into the healing work, not just the cognitive. I was getting stuck with a lot of clients, specifically trauma clients, who would make progress that 30%, and then we would get a little stuck. And so to move past that, we needed to integrate it.

I'm so happy you shared that. I am definitely that client, and I'm too logical for the area that I needed to work through. And so it was really beneficial for me because I kept going back and forth between a lot of things. I was like, I can see this side, and then I can see this side, and am I— is this a mistake? And that huge fear that felt so paralyzing, once we started deep diving into where does it come from, it blew my mind. And it was so, I guess for anyone that's considering it, from my experience, it was so loving when I was scared to go into it. Like I was almost scared of myself. I was sweating bullets before my first session because it's scary to face your trauma and your fears, but walking through it, it was like the most loving thing I could have done for my inner child. And I felt so seen. And it's literally only been one deep dive somatic practice one, and my next one's next week. So I'm looking forward to it. But I shared that with Alexis and I was like, oh, we really need Mary Beth to share more on that as well.

Yeah. I did a somatic-based coaching program. It was was really cool because it was for like therapists and coaches and, and like practitioners, but they also wanted you to experience it yourself on a personal level first. I did that in 2019, and that's really when I started integrating it so much more into my work. Um, thankfully before the pandemic, because things only continued to escalate beyond in terms of trauma, unfortunately. But, um, yeah, no, it's huge.

It's so Yeah, I love, I love that we've covered so many bases. We've like, we've talked about family dynamics, we talk about boundaries, enmeshment, attachment styles, somatic therapy. Like, this has been amazing.

Yeah.

I, I am curious, I know we've like kind of touched on therapy becoming more and more, um, normalized, more and more accepted. Um, I'm curious from your perspective being in the industry, Do you see any like big shifts coming? Like, what do you think is the future of therapy and the future of that kind of like mental health care?

I hope that it is still like a really like sacred, safe container for people with other humans. Like, what I do fear, I think, is like AI trying to take over. And I think that's a disservice To, um, really the co-regulation that comes with working with another human in terms of the nervous system that you possess. AI doesn't possess a nervous system. It can't help you that way. Um, and so I think it's kind of, it's kind of a cheapening there. Is it better than nothing ever? Sure. Um, but yeah, I think AI is a great tool to help therapists. Like it has helped me streamline some workflows to be more present for my clients and, and be able to see more clients and not be bogged down with paperwork. So it's great help. in that way, but I don't think it can ever replace kind of the sacred nature of therapy in the room with a trained professional. So, um, I hope that it will be preserved and that people will continue to value that.

That's a really great perspective. I hadn't thought about how AI would be influencing the— but I have seen on TikTok people kind of using ChatGPT like a therapist.

That's so scary. So scary.

It's interesting. It's interesting. It's like, okay, it's good for awareness, but then like, where does this go? Yeah, like, where do you— where do you continue this process? It's brought up so much stuff, and now you don't have someone who's trained to actually help you walk through it, and now you're feeling the— yeah, so it's really interesting. I'm glad that you brought that up. Mary Beth, you are amazing. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. We love you. I've learned so much. I can't wait to listen back to this. Can you share where people can connect with you and follow you? Like, you've built such a cool community on Instagram. I love your, your memes.

Yeah, your, uh, memes. So tell us—

Meme Monday— tell us where we can stay connected with you.

Yeah, well, first, thank you so much for having me. You guys are just the best. It's so comfortable, so fun. Um, you can find me on Instagram at yourjourneythrough.com. Um, every Monday I post therapy memes, and I feel like that's everyone's favorite thing, so now I can't stop. And, and then my website is yourjourney And we offer therapy to residents of North Carolina and coaching to residents beyond North Carolina if it's appropriate. Um, and yeah, virtually, in person, and you can just book on our website if that's of interest. Oh, and I have lots of resources on enmeshment linked in my Instagram bio. If that really resonated with you, those might be worth checking out. There's a quiz called Is My Family Enmeshed? So that might be a resource as well.

Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing those resources with us, for being with us today. This has been so eye-opening. We were wanting to have a therapist for a while now, and I can't think of anyone better to join us. So thank you so, so much.

Thank you so much.