You’ve Been Lied to - the TRUE Origins of Yoga Poses Episode 111

Welcome to the Yoga Liberty Podcast. My name is Angelica Govert and I'm known as Yoga Liberty on Instagram, Spotify, YouTube, podcast on the YouTube, on TikTok while we still have it, and, um, everywhere else that you are looking at stuff. I'm not on Snapchat because I never got into that, but, um, I'm joined today by my, um, co-host Justine Kennedy. Hi, Justine.

Hi, I'm so happy to be back with you on the internet studio.

I know, right? We took a little bit of time off and this is coming out in the new year. We're actually recording it in the end of 2024, but you will see us in 2025. So very exciting. Today we're going to be talking about a topic that was really kind of shocking for me and has given me kind of an existential crisis as a yoga teacher. And I was really surprised to find out. So, um, well, let's go ahead and just dive right into it. So we've all been told that yoga is a spiritual practice, and over the last few years, during some of the political movements that have been going on, A lot of people who are not Indian in origin have received a decent amount of dislike, anger, and been told that basically we're culturally appropriating. And that was really hard for me because I've been practicing yoga for 40 years. I've been doing yoga for 40 years, and I have been teaching yoga for over 20 years. And so That was something that was really difficult for me because I felt like, you know, it's not my fault that I wasn't born as an Indian, but if anyone is definitely authentic, I mean, I've literally dedicated my life to this practice. And so I felt like, I mean, I know that I have more knowledge than a number of Indian people. I just don't think that where you're from or your skin color really determines how much you know about a subject. And I know that you and I have talked about it. You've had some similar feelings before too.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Do you wanna share a little bit about how you felt? Cause you're, I know you're like in a different, like I'm someone who's older, but you're much younger than me. And, um, you also have been teaching for a shorter period of time, but you had feelings too that made you very uncomfortable as well, right?

Yeah, absolutely. So I, I mean, I am, very much a part of the social media cancel culture generation. Like, it's people my age, and they're like, you know, I'm in my 20s, people from their teens to maybe their early 30s who are really driving this. Like, if you do something wrong on the internet, you're done. And that has always made me really uncomfortable because I, I think people should be able to learn. I think people should be able to grow. I am not a perfect person, and I'm the type of person who owns my mistakes and I put them forward and I say, oh, I messed this up. And so I've always felt like a very big desire to learn from people and a little bit of a lack of people wanting to teach me, which it is no one's responsibility to teach me, but I would much rather engage with people on the internet in a productive way than a like, oh, you're wrong and you're messing this up. And, you know, I'm, I'm not like, I'm a, I'm a white person. I'm a relatively privileged white person as well. And yoga has been a huge part of my life and a huge part of my journey. And I've learned it all through a Western lens because that's what I've had access to. I have not been able to go to India. And even though the people who taught my yoga teacher training have spent a lot of time in India and had a very clear lineage. They didn't really teach me in a way that I felt I was a part of that lineage. Like, I feel like I am their student. And so I know I'm a student of all their teachers, but I'm not connected to them necessarily by name and by, like, direct teachings. It all felt like it was very tailored to the Western mindset. And I also am someone who I don't, I don't ever want to offend people. I am very like, I've had to work very hard on not being a total conflict avoidant person in my life.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah. And I'm getting, I'm getting so much better at it. And so when I first got my yoga teacher certification, I actually didn't start teaching in-person classes until this last year because I was really afraid of how I was going to be received, and I was afraid that I wasn't going to be giving authentic yoga in my primarily yoga asana classes, which— that is important. We're going to circle back to the origin of yoga poses a lot in this podcast. And so I just, I felt like I didn't really have a place in the yoga community because I'm so new. I am learning as much as I can, but I am, you know, I'm not going to go to India anytime soon and I'm definitely not going to stop being a white person anytime in my life.

Yeah. Um, I understand exactly what you're saying and, you know, I look very white. I have a very big mix of things inside of me. Um, and I was adopted and so like partway, and so I, I did a 23andMe and I, um, I was like kind of shocked. I was like, wow, okay, I didn't know that was in there. Um, but, um, you know, but that's not something I ever identified with because I didn't grow up knowing any of that stuff, you know? But, um, the thing is I just have never felt like any of that I don't know, it's just not my primary purpose. Like, I feel like different people have different primary purposes in life. Like, we can't all fight all the, all the fights, you know? Like, you just can't. It's exhausting. So, you know, like, if, if veganism is your thing and you want— you're into animal rights, then let that be your thing. If not, you know, doing low impact on the planet and, and being ecological is your thing, then let that be your thing, you know? Like, I just don't think I think it's unfair of us to put so much pressure on ourselves to be all the things, you know? And, um, I also find that people who are conflict avoidant are— for— I find them very difficult to deal with, um, because they're not straightforward. Yeah, right. Just tell me. Just tell me. You know, I'm not conflict avoidant in any way. Like, I'll just be like, this is what I need, this is how it is, this is what's going on, and then we forget about it. We move on. You know, like it's like you just say what it is that we need to say and we can avoid a lot of pain and suffering along the way. Right.

Right.

But, um, I know that there are a lot of people like that and they're just really afraid to get their, to hurt people's feelings. You know, which is interesting because, um, Indian culture is very conflict avoidant. Um, and I think it arises from just, there's so many people that live there and they have to get along. So, you know, a lot of times in India you'll get a yes, which it's really a no. And everything is a yes, you know. I can't get a straight fucking answer. Oh, I mean, I think I was supposed to cuss. You can't get a straight answer from anybody, you know. And, um, so that was really interesting in India, you know. We spent a lot of time there. But, um, anyhow, um, and in India, yoga is really different wherever you go, which leads us to our topic really today. And when I was getting certified, I remember being like, okay, well, the Vedas don't have any poses in them. The Yoga Sutras don't— doesn't have any poses in it. The Bhagavad Gita is not about poses at all. In fact, it's about war, right? And there's 15 poses in the Hatha Yoga Pradipika, but they're primarily seated postures, postures, although they do put Peacock in there, which could which I think is weird.

Uh, I love that.

I know. I'm like, why is that for meditation? You gonna meditate that way? But all right. Um, and I remember my teacher saying like, well, the postures are inspired by gymnastics and Krishnamacharya and the occupation, occupation of India during that time by England. And, um, she was like, that's where the postures came from. It came from gymnastics. But she didn't really elaborate, and I didn't really know, you know, where that was and, and any more about it until actually very recently. And I was deep inside of a Reddit thread and, um, just doing like research on like ideal client and stuff like that and reading like what people wrote and how do they explain things in their own words and things like that. And, um, I saw someone comment about, well, the poses that we do aren't even yoga anyway, it's just gymnastics. And they had a link to an article in Yoga Journal from 2010. And it was, I think, November of 2010. So I went and got a copy of that article and read it and was like, mind blown. And so then I started researching online and it turns out that yoga is not— the yoga poses do not come from India and the yoga poses have nothing to do with yoga at all. And one thing I'm really struggling with is, is the life that I've lived, the things that I've dedicated my entire life to, is it all a sham? Was it all a lie? Were we like really being taken advantage of by Krishnamacharya and Pattabhi Jois and Iyengar, who knew— they knew, these men knew that that really came from gymnastics, what they're, what they're teaching. So there was this man named Niels Buch, and Niels Buch was inspired by women's rhythmic gymnastics, and he was a Danish guy. And he was actually— he's also a gay man, and he was very into physique. It was very important to him to have a nice physique. So he created something called primary gymnastics. Sound familiar? Primary, primary series, primary gymnastics. So he creates primary gymnastics, and he takes these primary gymnastics poses, which, if you look at pictures of them, are Ashtanga yoga poses and Vinyasa yoga poses. And he takes them and he makes his own set series. And then what's really interesting is he becomes like kind of famous for this gymnastics thing, but then he also gets involved with Hitler, which is weird. And he starts teaching Hitler and Hitler's youth the primary gymnastics in order to build up their physique. And the jury's like kind of still out on whether or not Hitler knew that Niels was gay because Niels lived with his partner like his whole life, um, for a very long time. And, um, you know, some, some scholars are saying like, well, he didn't know that Hitler was against gays. I'm like, how can you not know that? Like, I think, yeah, I think that was like, he was in the inner circle, he would know. So that was weird. Um, but somehow, somewhere along the way, and I don't know how, Krishnamacharya gets a copy of this primary gymnastics books, and it was probably brought to India by one of the people that were occupying India from England. And Krishnamacharya finds this book and he creates vinyasa yoga from this book and then fuses in the Yoga Sutras into this. To create the ideology of yoga. Now what's really fascinating to me too is that like when you hear a lot of the famous quotes, 'cause I studied Ashtanga for years and a lot of the famous quotes that you hear are all about the physical stuff. You know, like Pattabhi Jois will say like, practice, practice, practice. That's like a very famous quote from Pattabhi Jois and he's talking about the physical practice or practice and all is coming. I think that's Iyengar, you know? And so they put this like really heavy, emphasis on the physical practice. And like, even Iyengar said that the physical practice of yoga helped him to heal from tuberculosis and being sick. And but they all said that this yoga practice was from the, the ancient yogis of India. Like, they never said it comes from gymnastics from Niels Buchs, a Danish man. You know, like, they never said that. And so I feel really lied to, and I feel like all of us have been lied to. And I also feel like this witch hunt against people teaching yoga who shouldn't be, and it's not culturally appropriate— we're literally teaching gymnastics. We're like actually teaching Western fitness. And the Indians put the label on it that it was yoga when it wasn't. And so I'm having this like real crisis about it, right? Because what is that, you know?

Right. And like what immediately comes to mind when we're having these conversations is the 8 limbs of yoga. And we've talked about this a lot, like yoga asana is just one of the 8 limbs of yoga. And I think a lot of times when people are talking about cultural appropriation in yoga, it's because in the West we are so focused on asana and we are focused on teaching that primary gymnastics. And a lot of times in classes, the rest of it kind of falls to the wayside and we see things that don't embody all, all 8 limbs. We're just focusing on one, leaving the other 7 out. And to me, that seems like the root of where a lot of people get frustrated and when that cultural appropriation conversation starts to come out. And, and so I'm curious, I'm like, do we, do we start this movement of like, hey, we're not teaching yoga, we're teaching primary gymnastics and all of those things like those more corporate yoga where you could go to any studio across the United States and get the same sequence, the same music in your same class. At the same time? Should we start being like, hey, welcome to primary gymnastics class and just separate it? Is that— is that a solution? Is that going to make everyone happy? Not that everyone needs to be happy, but is that what's going to happen? And I think the answer is probably not. People love yoga. And then another question comes up for me that I would love to hear your answer on. Is like, I think that we can both say that yoga poses have been a huge part of our lives and our journeys. And I know for me, like, just doing a yoga pose primary gymnastics class makes me feel really good and has led to a lot of my personal growth. So does— I don't want to say does it matter, but does it really make it not a spiritual practice because it's primary gymnastics.

For me, it matters. Yeah, like, I've been talking about it a lot, and it really does matter to me. And I, I feel I feel really sad because I thought that these movements, these physical movements, were helping to open up my chakras and releasing the kundalini and, you know, making a difference in my body from a spiritual standpoint. And has yoga greatly helped me? Yes. I was just talking to one of my peers who had taken my teacher training years ago yesterday, and she was telling me she's in her 60s now and she has osteoporosis. And she was saying like she went to physical therapy and it was like a joke because she was so flexible that they really didn't know how to give her good physical therapy. And she's like, but I'm in better shape because I practiced yoga. And I do believe that I am also in better shape because I've practiced yoga, you know. I just feel like, you know, I have so many questions, like where did, where did the names of the poses come from then? Like, I would be interested to know, like, I want to get a hold of one of the primary gymnastics books by Nils Buuk and see, like, what did he name the poses or did Krishnamacharya name the poses? You know, like, obviously these this, this whole ideology of physical yoga is a scam. It was like set up to make money off of Western people. So I mean, the joke ultimately is with the Indians, you know, like they're like, whatever, we got your money, you maybe occupied our country, but we fooled you, you know. And, um, obviously that doesn't feel great. You know, so I don't really know like where that leaves me like moving forward, you know, like what, how do I compartmentalize this in my brain? You know, how do we, how do we go into our minds? And, and I think that answer is going to be different for everyone because another thing that you said, you know, was like, could, will that make everyone happy? Nothing will make everyone happy. I have been on the internet posting long enough to know that you cannot please even a quarter of the people. Yeah, there's a lot of people that will be really angry at you for no matter what, you know. So, um, I think it's gonna have to be come down to personal decision. Like, each one of us individually is gonna have to decide, like, what do we feel about yoga, right? You know, what do we feel about our relationship to yoga? And, um, you know, I've always been a person that really was very connected to the Yoga Sutras. And really, I've read the book like 25, 26 times. And because every time I would host a teacher training, I would read the book again. So I read it a lot. And I think that the 8 limbs of yoga are, you know, really good guidelines to live by. But, you know, the reality is, is that most people that are practicing what we call yoga aren't doing the yamas and the niyamas. I mean, the first yama is ahimsa, non-violence. Violence. And it's always, always translated to vegetarianism, like always. Every book translates it to that. And India is primarily a vegetarian country. And so step number one, the majority of people in the West practicing yoga today aren't doing that. Certainly no one's practicing brahmacharya, which is sexual abstinence. You know, some people will— they like to change it and call it sexual responsibility. But that's not what it is. It's abstinence. Um, and I mean, it— we're not practicing that, you know, right? By and, you know, far and wide, like, we're not really doing that. So it also gives me this whole new perspective too, right? Like, for years I've been like, well, all these Instagram yogis with their extra flexible bodies, they're not really doing yoga. None of us are, you know, like, that's really, that's really crazy to think about. Like, even if you're just doing a Warrior One, there is no Warrior One in, in yoga. It's just something that some Indian guys made up after they got this book by Niels Buch.

Right. Well, and that brings up a good question too, of how much can things adapt and still be in their essence? You know, we started with those 15 seated postures that, in my understanding, are there to prime your body for meditation. And now we have— I don't even know how many yoga poses coming from this primary gymnastics. And, and it is a question of like, is it actually yoga. It did, you know, Krishna Macharya.

Krishna Macharya.

Krishna Macharya. I always struggle with pronouncing things.

It took me a while too.

Yeah. Oh, you should, you should hear me try to speak Spanish. It's, it's bad. I'm such a—

I was speaking Spanish the other day, and because I'm learning Spanish, it's something I really want to learn how to speak. And, um, somebody was like, oh my gosh, your Spanish accent's so good.

And I was like, wow. That's amazing.

I'm like speaking Spanish and it's coming out with a French accent because French was the first second language I learned, you know. So, je dois parler français, je travaille en France, and you know, like I love French, but like to speak Spanish, I'm like, hola, como, como, um, no, como esta.

Yeah.

I'm just learning, okay?

We're all learning.

El niño está debajo del avión.

You need the bathroom?

The boy is under the plane.

That's all. Yeah, shows how much I know.

Um, anyhow.

Yeah, but any— anyways, so thinking about, um, how much can things adapt does Krishnamacharya finding this primary gymnastics, creating the link between primary gymnastics and the 8 limbs of yoga, can that become what yoga is? Is it like, is it allowed to evolve like that and still hold the, the essence, the spirituality of yoga?

Yeah, I think that's a really good question. And one thing, so I have a degree, one of my degrees is in English literature. And language arts was one of my favorite classes in college. And they talked about how language evolves. So language is constantly changing, like we don't speak anything like Old English. Like medieval English, we don't speak anything like that at all now, right? But is it still English? Right? So then it's like, does, does yoga also evolve? You know, and yoga has evolved, right? Because you have the Vedas, you have the Bhagavad Gita, you know, you have the Yoga Sutras, you have the Hatha Yoga Pradipika, and I think they were written in that order. So You know, and it's— it changes a little bit every time, right? So, you know, is that— is there a realm that that's possible? You know, I think one of the things that we do as humans is we're so inflexible mentally.

Yeah.

Like, we're like, you know, like, you can't be a little bit vegan, you know, like, you can't be a little bit— you can't be a little bit on a weight loss journey. Mm-hmm. You know, like, you can't be a little bit into cars. You can't be like, you know, like, whatever it is, you got to be like 100% about it or else you're wrong, you know?

Right.

Like, if you're like, you know, I like to read sometimes— well, either you like to read or you don't like to read, you know?

Right. You're a reader or you're not, right?

You're on a high protein diet or you're not. You know, right? You can't just be like dabbling in things, you know? And it's funny because like Walt Whitman said, I am large, I contain multitudes. You know, like we are bigger than just these like small little pigeonholes. And ultimately, like, we're having this discussion, but how much does it really matter? Like, when we die will it matter? And the answer really is no, it won't.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I don't think God's gonna be up there on Judgment Day like, hey, listen, you're not getting through the pearly gates because you labeled yoga incorrectly.

There's bigger things.

You know, I think ultimately I just try to be a really good person. I try to be an honest person. I try to be a caring and understanding person of other people's feelings. Feelings. Um, and the Yoga Sutras say that, you know, like, don't, um, don't talk badly of something that other one else holds in high regard, you know. And, um, I try not to do that. I mean, I definitely am very opinionated, but I also understand that I'm not the only one with an opinion. You know, before this, we were talking about— I went to a yoga class last night, so I'm just going to clue everybody in on what we were talking about. I went to a yoga class last night. It was a restorative class, and, um, it was a sound healing at the same time, which, um, normally is really good, but they did some like weird clashy stuff that I was like, I don't know if I'm gonna go back to this. But, um, uh, and also the egos of these people were so large. I was like, wow, you know. And I see that a lot in the yoga community is just, you know, it's like this contest of like who knows more, Who can say more? Who has more knowledge? Who's this? You know, and, and that, I find that to be very off-putting. Um, the, the anytime somebody's got a really big ego and isn't willing to learn something new or be in a new space, you know, like I'm always willing to hear from another person, you know. Um, and maybe I'll make a change, maybe I won't. Like I'm strong enough in myself to know that like I don't have to change just cuz somebody else doesn't like what I did. Or somebody feels differently, you know, that doesn't mean I gotta change anything, you know. So anyhow, this woman is— we're talking about yin yoga, and I'm like, yeah, I never go to yin yoga classes because nobody teaches actual yin yoga, they're just teaching restorative. And they were like, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, yeah, um, and especially this hot yin, I can't with that because yin in itself is cool By definition, yang is hot. Um, and you know, people are teaching things that are really just restorative yoga and then calling it yin yoga because it's a, it's a cool name. And this teacher was like, yeah, I'm certified in yin. And I'm like, she has no idea who I am, you know? And that like, I like run, made like huge certification programs for years. And you know, that I owned a studio, multiple studios that I trained with Bernie Clark. And with Paul Greeley and like, you know, like I just have like an incredible wealth of information about this, right? She doesn't know I have a podcast or that I'm on social media. She doesn't know nothing about me and I'm not sharing it, right? Because I don't want to be that, that person. So, so she's schooling me on yin incorrectly and she says, well, we have to heat up the room now because Western bodies need their muscles warmed in order to be safe in yin practice. And I just didn't feel like saying to her, yin doesn't work on the muscles. That's why the room needs to be cool. It's supposed to work on connective tissues, ligaments, and bones. I'm not saying it has to be a freezing room. It shouldn't be freezing, but it shouldn't be hot.

Mhm.

But I didn't say any of those things. I just said, well, that's definitely debatable. And she looked at me like I was like just the most insane person, you know, like there was something wrong with me. I'm just like, like, how could I— how could I talk back to her? She's the expert. But I remember when I used to be like that when I was younger, you know. And I think the reality is, and what, you know, this whole topic of Niels Buuk really brings us to the, the summation that, uh, none of us are ever the expert. There's always like, we just don't know. We weren't there for that. We don't know.

Yeah.

And the other thing is, is that, um, you know, like you were sharing that You know, well, I'll let you share what you shared about yin yoga and the hot yin.

Yeah. Well, I just, I feel like people are afraid to share that their opinion is going against tradition because I love a hot yin yoga class. I love it. It makes me feel great. There is nothing that I'd rather do on a snowy cold winter day than go and lay on some comfy bolsters and be in a warm room and have some good music. And I love it, and I'll tell everyone I love it. And I'll also tell people that that's not how yin is supposed to be taught traditionally, and that's okay. It is okay to have something that you enjoy that is different than what someone else says is the tradition, even if it is, you know, that's fine. Love what you love. Do your hot yoga, do your goat yoga, do whatever you want to do. And be okay with someone telling you that's not how it is traditionally. You can just go, I know, that's okay, I still like it, and go on with your day.

I love that. I feel like you've just freed me from 50 years of trauma.

That's why I'm here.

You know, somebody— the goat yoga— somebody went that worked for me, he taught goat yoga, and he was like, yeah, I hear what you're saying about it not being real yoga, but you know You know what, it's a goat sanctuary, and when people go to these classes, it keeps these goats alive. And then when he spoke to me about the animals, I was like, oh, okay, yeah, totally fine. I think, you know, like I was saying, in language arts we learned that words evolve and their meanings evolve. And so I think this is going to be very controversial, but what if the word yoga can evolve? What if the word yoga has a different meaning? What if the yoga of today is different the yoga of Krishnamacharya is different than the yoga of Patanjali is different than the yoga of Arjuna. Like, what if it has changed? And what if that's okay?

Right. Well, and I, I think about, like, what, what is the purpose of a spiritual practice? It's to have union. It's to have connection. It's to be a part of oneness. And the, the things that people struggle with today are incredibly different than the things that people struggled with in India when yoga first became a practice. So as we're evolving, as our society is evolving, we also need our practices to evolve to account for what our world is like and the really unique things like consumerism there was no Amazon back in the day. Like, I mean, there's the Amazon rainforest, but there was no Amazon delivery service. Like, these things, the way that the environment is being affected, the way that our bodies are being affected through things that we consume. Like, yeah, we're not putting lead in food anymore, thankfully, but we're still putting some other stuff in there that's not good for us.

Yeah, yeah.

Does our spirituality need to update with us? How do we make these practices modern for the modern world?

That's a really good question. Um, my dog is having a dream and wagging his tail. Oh, it's so cute. Um, I don't have the answer. I think the answer is within each person individually, ultimately, you know. I think that each person has to answer this question on their own. So I don't know, what do you all think? Drop it in the comments below if you're on a platform that you can comment, which is Spotify and YouTube. You can comment on the video. And let us know, like, what do you— what are your thoughts? You know, what do you think about all of this? And is— does this shake, like, what you feel like is yoga and your connection to it? And, you know, I always considered myself a traditionalist and someone who was very focused on teaching the traditions of yoga, and now I feel like what I was teaching wasn't even real yoga anyway. You know?

Yeah.

I don't know. I just feel like, man, I just want to talk to that Krishnamacharya guy and be like, what the heck is going on with you? Why you lied to me?

Right. And I wonder if he even, like, if he even felt like he was lying, you know? Like, was it this big secret or did he—

I met, I met Pattabi Joy.

Mm-hmm.

And I didn't meet Iyengar, but I know a lot of people who did. And these men had massive egos, like massive, massive egos. And they were basically like untouchables and just really, you know, and I have traveled in India and I, you know, regardless of what anyone else thinks about it, India is a very male-forward culture and women are not respected there. And, um, they see Western women as very, um, um, what's the word, loose, you know, like that we're not chaste, you know, we're not, we're not demure and, um, we're not mindful.

Okay.

Um, but just throwing that in there. If anyone's on TikTok, you'll get it. If you're not, whatever. Um, And so it's the culture there back then even would have been even more intensely male. Um, and so, you know, these men, they were, they demanded a level of respect for their knowledge, you know. So I really, it's interesting because just nobody ever brought it up, right? So there's very little about it. I asked the guy who wrote the article in the Yoga journal to come on the podcast, but I have not heard back from him. So I'm gonna try and find more information on him and see if I can maybe get on a phone call or something, like really try to get this person to come on the podcast and explain this all to us because I want answers. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I feel like this is an episode that brings up more questions than answers, and I think that's great. I hope that everyone feels inspired to do some soul searching around your beliefs of yoga. Do some research. Send us anything interesting that you find because we have questions.

We have questions. So, um, anyhow, if you, um, have enjoyed the podcast, please do subscribe and leave us a 5-star review. We would love that. It helps us to get the podcast out to more people. Share it with people. You know, this show is totally free. So, um, The more you share the show, the more people we can reach. And it's just a great way of reciprocating the energy that we sent you today through the show. And since it's 2025, we have launched a brand new version, all new version of the Empowered Yoga Teachers Course. We have merged it with the 300-hour training. So whether you have your 300-hour or not, if you don't have your 300-hour, this can count towards your 300-hour certification. If you already have your 300-hour, this counts as 300 hours of Yoga Alliance Continuing Education. So it is an incredible course, and over a 6-month period you will build an online business so, um, you can have freedom and do what we do, and we'll teach you everything we know. So you can meet with me by applying at the link below and get it— grabbing a time this week to connect with me and talk about your dreams and your goals and see if this program is a good fit for you. We would love to have you in the program. If you want to help the world through the practice of yoga, however you define that. And yeah, so thank you so much, Justine. I appreciate you. It's good to see you again. And thank you everyone for listening. And I guess, yeah, we're leaving you with more questions than answers, but no worries. We'll keep diving into these subjects as we go through 2025. All right, okay, well, bye guys!

Bye!