104. Adopting A Learning Mindset With Norm Wales

You know, and if you're still enjoying what you do and you're delivering what you say you're going to deliver there, you know, that's the most important thing.

Welcome to Professional Builders Secrets, the podcast for building company owners wanting to grow safely and securely. I'm your host, Will Blunt and today I'm joined by Norm Wales from Norm Wales Constructions in Bundaberg, Australia. Norm, welcome to the show.

Well, thanks for having us, mate. Good to be here.

Very excited to have you on today. You've been around the APB traps for quite a while now, so super excited to unpack your journey so far and appreciate you coming on.

Yes, mate, no, we've been part of the APB for a little while now and it's definitely been a great journey.

Yeah, awesome. So obviously APB is one side of things, but why don't you tell me more about how it all started.

Look, I guess for nwc like we specialize in full customers on new homes but you know, the journey, you know, to lead us to this point that I guess there, I guess if you look back when I was a lot younger, I was always very hands on and I guess eager to be in the outdoors and explore and I guess create things. I guess, you know, as a young fella you'd go and build tree houses and you know, explore the outdoors. So you're quite busy with your hands and I guess that's where carpentry probably naturally found me, you know, you know, being one that used to like making and building things and when I sort of were in high school there, I was lucky enough to be given an opportunity to try that and I got a school based apprenticeship. So as a pretty early age, I might have been 15, you know, I got given this opportunity that led into what I have to this day and I was lucky enough that I was able to finish school, you know, so I still completed year 11, year 12. I, you know, then continued on, you know, leaving school. I knew what I was going to do because I had that school based apprenticeship there. So something very really, you know, fortunate to sort of have that. Not many people get that experience in that opportunity I guess. But once I completed my, my trade there, I then started obviously studying for my builders number. And when I had that opportunity of, you know, working with, you know, great, I guess mentors myself as a young apprentice, they help guide you through, you know, the things that look for and what to do. And shortly after me finishing my apprenticeship, as I said, I studied the Azure builders courses and things and there's only a couple of years later that I actually then got my number which then I started Normals Construction. So, you know, it's been a stepping stone since then, but it's been, you know, definitely very rewarding for us.

So you got your builder number like at a very young age. How old were you when you, when you first started?

Look, I would have gotten involved in the industry around 14, 15, so I obviously done the apprenticeship and once I started studying there for my builder's license and then, you know, couple of years after the study I actually started Nor Wales Constructions there. So from there it just kept evolving and few years later from that we started a company and yeah, we're looking at nearly 25 years now being in the natural industry itself. So time does go very quickly. But look, there's lots we've learned along the way.

So you weren't straight into custom homes as NWC at that age though, right? You were working for other builders first to kind of learn your way or.

Yeah, look, look, obviously it wasn't straight into full custom design sort of stuff there. It was obviously the bigger picture of where I wanted to go like for myself saying, you know, I've been in the industry for, you know, over 25 years and you know, like we've actually never built the same house twice, you know, so. But I guess in the earlier stages there it was, you know, taking on smaller jobs and you know, building I guess that name and that reputation around myself there that's got us to where we are today.

Yeah, nice. So what, what have you found is like the biggest challenge through all of that? I mean you probably don't know anything but the building industry by the sounds of it.

Yeah, look, it's definitely can be very challenging but you know, like, if it was easy, you know, everyone would be doing it, you know, I mean, but look, the challenges don't sort of phase me. I think challenging yourself is also very rewarding. Yes, it's can be very stressful and very hard, but I think that's how you grow and you evolve, you know, through those challenges and those times there. So I tend to find that more of a positive approach that you can sort of, you know, gain something from those challenges.

Do you feel like there's anything different going on in the industry at the moment or is it something you've experienced before in your 25 year career?

Oh, look, definitely, you know, the industry has definitely, you know, blown up as of late there. But the industry has always been evolving and changing. It is something that you have to sort of keep your finger on that pulse with there. You know, you have to sort of grow and learn and evolve with it as well. You know, it's. There's systems and methods and procedures that you might have done last year or five years ago that have just been so superseded, you know, so it's really important to. To be able to deliver the quality and the standards that we hold ourselves accountable to. You've got to keep your finger on your pulse there, you know, want to, you know, learn and evolve with that, you know, as it actually does advance. Because if you. If you don't, you'll get left behind really quickly.

Yeah. So for those that don't know that are listening, Bundaberg, where your business is and where you live, is a relatively regional area in Australia, right?

Yeah. Look, look, Bundaberg's a great place, you know, but I'm quite biased, obviously, in that area. Like, I'm very proud of where we come from, but it's, you know, as a young fellow growing up there to where it is now, like, it's definitely got. And a lot larger, a lot more populated with stuff there. But I guess, you know, for myself there, being in that regional area there, you know, we don't have that same opportunity, I guess, as the. The larger, you know, cited areas there. But, you know, for ourselves there, you know, we're just focused on what we do and what we do well.

Have you had any other challenges being regional other than, you know, what you've just described as the opportunities there?

Look, I guess the challenges that you sort of face there, it's. There's a lot of builders still in our area, and, you know, there's a handful of, you know, really good builders, you know, but there's very few that are really willing to invest in themselves and go that extra mile to. To keep up to date with, like I said before, you know, all the changes and how things, you know, really do evolve, and even just making sure that you're running a professional building company in itself, then being able to offer your custom and that they're the experience that they truly do deserve.

Would you say that your customers are looking for something more professional or are they happy to accept, you know, a lower standard as well?

Look, everybody's got, I guess, a different want with things there, and there's still plenty to pick from, I guess, in our area. But when it comes down to, I guess, you know, the customers themselves, they're like, I would like to think with what we offer and what we deliver, there Definitely is a lot different to what's around our area, unfortunately. I think it comes back down to you only know what you know and the things you don't know. You can't help if you don't know that there. And that comes down to education, I guess, you know, and that's what, you know, we're really big on being able to, you know, help other builders, you know, if they reach out to us and, you know, support them, but also able to help the customers and that there as well, that they can make a proper, informed decision. So for ourselves there, we'd like to think we're very proactive with being able to provide that support or that helpful information there to the general public there so that they can make that proper, informed decision. Because, look, everybody's on a different journey. Everyone wants something a little bit different there, and that's okay. But I guess it's just important that they find what's going to be the best fit for them. And that's the most important thing, really. You just don't want people sort of thinking they're going to get one thing and end up with something else.

So you're looking to educate your potential customers about the process they should go through to build. Is that what you're talking about?

Yeah, I guess for ourselves, we have our process and there's many other processes, you know, that can be taken into account there. But, you know, it really is about taking the right process and the right steps there. So then, you know, it's a huge investment that a lot of people make. They're generally the biggest investment they'll ever make in their life is building a new home. So it's important that they do their due diligence, you know, do their research there and, you know, follow, I guess what I say, that they got instinct there, and it's important that they're very comfortable, you know, with the builder of their choose. You know, it's one of those things, once they go too far, it can be very hard, sort of come back from there, you know, so it's important, I guess, that they do the correct research, ask around there and they feel comfortable with their builder, that they. They're going to be able to deliver what they've actually said they're going to.

How early in the journey with a customer will you be starting to educate them about these kind of things to watch out for?

Look, for ourselves, people come to us years in advance. I think the longest customer we've actually worked with ourselves before we even started their build Was a little over three years, three months. So, as I said before, everyone's on a different journey and for ourselves there, we don't want people to rush or feel like they have to make a decision. Now it really comes down to, yes, the time is going to be right for them, but we don't want that to be pushed or forced upon themselves there. Like, if they take their time and they get it right, they're going to get the best results at the end of things there, you know, and if they're building their dream home and it's their forever home, you know, generally speaking, there it's something that I think, you know, you should take your time and get it right for yourselves.

So those customers that have taken three years to get to the point where they feel comfortable, they want to work with you and you're comfortable that they're in the right position, how have you nurtured them over those three years?

Look, it's about building those relationships, I guess, with them, you know, having that good communication, the understanding on what their big picture is and what they're actually, you know, wanting to achieve from the specific build there, you know, like understanding, you know, what their requirements are, how do they live their lifestyle, you know, how they're going to use that space, you know, and then by us working with them, you know, through that journey there, we're able to sort of help envisionise what they're actually wanting and create that perfect home for them.

From a, from a tactical perspective, though, how are you keeping in touch with them? Are you automating emails? Are you calling them every once in a while? How does that work?

Look, look, yeah, all the above there that you mentioned there, like, you know, where something we really pride ourselves on there is good communication. And yes, that's, you know, it could be through emails, could be through a zoom meeting, could be through WhatsApp or Skype, or, you know, it could be a text message, you know, simple phone call, you know, plen our meetings in the office or on site there. Like, you know, we're very flexible and adaptable to what we actually do and it's just a matter of sort of walking in with the customer themselves as well, because each person has a specific method that might suit them better as well. So it really is all avenues of communication that we communicate with our customers and add upon there.

How do you, how do you get leads in? Like, what's your main source of getting new customers?

Look, getting inquiries and things from customers, I guess we get a lot of stuff There from the general referrals and word of mouth there, but being a local Bundaberg boy there, it's been in industry for a little while there. Look, we do get a lot of our, you know, leads and chorus and people asking around and you know, building that good name and reputation, I guess and you know, using obviously all your social platforms and things there as well. You know, we obviously promote ourselves out there and try and educate the industry and our customers and you know, hopefully that they can see, you know, how proactive we are and what we actually do there. And if they feel we're a good fit, you know, they reach out to us and we start communicating and taking that step forward.

I imagine it's probably heightened if, you know, if you don't do a good job in a local community like that, everyone's going to be talking. Right?

Look at that. That's correct. You know, and look for ourselves there. We don't really get too caught up amongst that there, like, because I believe the standards and the quality control processes and measures we have in place there, you know, like we would never deliver something that we aren't happy with ourselves. We're not a high volume project building company. I'm not a builder that's going to say yes to everything there. As much as everyone wants to hear the word yes, we will definitely tell the customer our honest answers there. We're here to help them, not tell them what they want to hear there. And I believe if you're upfront and you're honest with your customer there, that goes a long way as well.

Yeah. Talk to me about some of your systems and processes to maintain a quality assurance. What are some of your top systems and processes?

Look, this is something that's always currently evolving. Like I said, you sort of got to keep ahead of things there. But look, having the ability to be able to schedule our projects and coordinate, you know, the project from start to finish before we even start the project in itself, you know, like so having every little detail, I guess, locked in and systemized in place there and what I mean, systemize it to, like it does vary to each project because we do specialize in full custom design, you know, so there is a lot of stuff that has to be, I guess manually put into place and stuff there. But that's the, the difference of a true custom design building company there and one that sort of just uses the word custom a little bit lighter than others there. But yeah, look, some of the systems and things that we have in there, like, you know, having you know, a very active mobile calendar. You know, your softwares that we can sort of prepare quotes and tenders there too. You know, it's really important that there's a mixed bag of many of them that sort of guess interconnect, there's no wonder. So it just suits, you know, everything. There is such there but it's a matter of, I guess, you know, evolving that over time. Then find out what works for yourself because what works for me may not work for another building company there either. You know, everyone has their own little areas of expertise and areas that they want to sort of, you know, refine perfect there. And you know, each system I guess is going to be slightly different, you know, so it's important that you know, you, you find out what works for you, I guess.

What is your construction management software of choice?

Look, I wouldn't have one of choice to be truthfully honest. I've used many of them and probably most of them to be honest with you. So we use Builders Act, I use Envisioneer, I use Eels. There's you know, many systems that I, I find software, you might find one or two things that work really well and then the other parts, another system will, you know, work better for you in other areas there. So we use multiple sort of stuff there to create that perfect, you know, system that, you know, that we're wanting to achieve there.

What, what's made you land on BuildXact at this time?

Look, working with BuildXact is just, you know, evolving from older technology to new technology, now more cloud based and you can sort of share with your team a little bit more there. It's a little bit easier and friendlier to I guess your whole team to be a part of that there.

Okay, cool. You mentioned, I mean over your span of 25 years in the industry that there's lots of different challenges you face. How have you dealt with all those challenges I guess and just kept going?

Yeah, look, there's been many challenges, you know, I mean, but like I said earlier on there, it's about being able to face those challenges and learn from the challenges as well. You know, like if you weren't being challenged, I guess you wonder, you know, what are you missing out on? You know, like you can always put your head in the sand but there's plenty going around, you know, up top there. But you know, being challenged is just a matter of being consistent, you know, most importantly just enjoying what you do, you know, and if you're still enjoying what you do and you're delivering what you say you're going to deliver there, you know, that's the most important thing.

Can you think of a specific challenge you've had in the last 12 months which has really knocked you about and you've, you've had to overcome it?

Look, I think the biggest challenge there is time, you know, and then letting go, you know, with stuff there. You know, we've all got the same amount of hours in a day and in a week that we have to work with. And it's just a manage of managing your, your time there, you know, because that can be the challenge there, that when things get really busy and you know, there's lots of moving parts and things all happening at once. So it's really important, I guess, that you use your time and focus on what's really important there to start with and then break it down from there, you know, and you know, if you can sort of work through that there, you know, it's definitely very empowering.

Do you, when you feel that squeeze of, of a lot going on, do you work long hours? Do you not do some things? How do you handle it?

Look, mate, I think anyone that runs any form of a business or a company, they definitely work long hours. Yeah, look, it's something that we do manage and yes, you know, I work a lot of hours, but it's probably more of a choice there now as well. You know, back in the early days, there wasn't that choice word. It wasn't the ability to, I guess, turn that on and turn that off as you desire. For me, I'm one that, I'm always pretty active and always thinking and I'd like to sort of be efficient and get things done there. So I guess the hours I still work there are of choice and we spend a lot of time there, you know, working on the business there to be able to create a great experience for our customers there. But yeah, that's come with a lot of time and a lot of hard work and just being consistent there.

When you say working on the business, you're talking about creating leverage for yourself, right? So you can do things outside as well.

Yeah, look, 100%, like it's really important, like for me. And I even say this to all my, my staff, my contractors, the whole lot, like it's family first, you know, it's really, really important that you find that work life balance there. And look, I don't believe all of us have that, but we, we definitely aim and strive for that there. But look, family first. And if you can get that sort of side of things there at a nice balance and you're enjoying what's happening and what you're doing there. The other stuff will fall into place there for you.

I believe you've also got some other hobbies, I imagine, like you said, you're getting a couple of knee operations because you play a bit of soccer.

Yeah, yeah. So it's time to go back in under the knife again. I've been doing that for about 35 years there now. It's just a bit of wear and tear. But between being pretty busy with, you know, sports and, you know, spending the sort of time having the industry myself there, I guess it does take its toll on your body when, when you.

Think about just going back to the. The idea of working on the business, creating leverage and not having enough time as the, the primary problem you've been facing and you know, probably for your whole career, not just the last 12 months. Yes. What other sacrifices have you had to make to, to kind of grow the business?

Look, there's always a sacrifice there, you know, and that's a choice, I guess, these days to what you sacrifice and what you don't there. In the early days it was a lot more sacrifice there because of, you know, you may not have had the, the correct systems and processes and things in place there, but you know, like, unfortunately, you know that there would have been a lot of family time that was sacrificed, you know, friendships and all those sorts of things where you've got people wanting to go to barbecues or, you know, have an event or do something there, but you're sitting up to 2 o', clock, 3 o' clock in the morning preparing a quotation, you know, so it's all the hours that are put in behind the scenes that a lot of, you know, people don't see. You know, a lot of customers don't understand that. Sometimes a lot of staff don't understand that as well, you know, and it's important that, you know, you'll be able to provide for, you know, like your team that you've employed. You've got to continue to have work there for them. And, you know, the way we've always operated with normalised construction said that we are very family orientated and, you know, we are a team at the end of the day. Yes, I might be the director and the one accountable with things at the end of the day, but I truly do think of everybody as an equal and I appreciate everybody's inputs. And I think if you work together and you communicate openly with each other, you know, you can achieve some amazing things together.

Yeah, I imagine that family orientation would be powerful for your customers as well. Right. That resonate with that?

Look, I'd like to think so, but it's not something that we sort of bank on a work on. That's just, you know, who we are and what we're doing. Look, that's something that we will always, you know, stand by, you know, like I will never tell someone something that they want to hear. Always be honest with them about stuff there and you know, I'll talk about the good, the bad or the ugly. You know, I think that's the main thing about being a professional builder is being able to communicate and I guess communicate with the customers and you know, talk about anything or even your staff and things and share the big picture and that vision there with people, you know, being open and honest. I think it's a really good thing to have and a good thing to do and you know, something that everybody should really look at doing that if more people were a little bit more open and communicated a little bit better, it'd be a lot easier for everybody.

Yeah, definitely. Would you say that you're working more, sorry, less now than you used to work on the business or in the business?

Look, for me, I guess, you know, very similar, but I've had a breakdown. I probably would be a little bit less than some of you guys, but I'm probably just as much involved there really, because I choose to be, because I like to be involved in it. You know, for me it's that letting go aspect, I guess, can be challenging. But now that I, I know I can do that and I do do that there, it's nice to have the choice of being involved where I want to be. And just as I said earlier about keeping your finger on the pulse there because, you know, for ourselves, yes, we're a, you know, customer design building company there, but you know, we still are only a smaller family operated business and I want to stay that way of choice. You know, like I've had many opportunities to really grow and expand the business there, but I don't want to go down that path there. I'm quite comfortable with what we do and how we operate there and the, I guess the connections and the relationships that we build with our customers, you know, they are priceless and you know, it's really rewarding for us to be able to sort of still keep in touch with our customers there and see them years down the track and you know, they're still Very pleased with the home that we've delivered. And, you know, we've actually built, you know, a really good friendship there. And, you know, I think you'll get other companies that are very easy. We just say yes, yes, yes all the time, and they'll grow so large, and sometimes they're not able to control that there. But, you know, even if in the event that they are able to control that, I don't believe those same relationships and connections are still established and, you know, built there, you know, so for us, it's just about finding that balance and, you know, that work life, family balance. And I truly do believe that we found that there. It's just a. A matter of, you know, keeping our finger on the pulse and staying consistent with that.

That's nice. Yeah. For anyone that hasn't watched Norm's video or Brand Story, which is on your website, highly recommend it. It's an awesome video from start to finish. But one thing that I noticed when I watched it, which really came across was the impact you're having on these families that you build the homes for.

Oh, look at this. And, you know, for us, you know, and I guess, you know, for myself, you know, we do take it very personal with every home that we deliver. And I would never, ever deliver something to any of my customers that I wasn't happy with myself there. And people that know me that I'm, you know, they probably think I'm a little bit more ocd. I guess there was how particular I'm there. You know, I'm probably the guy that has a checklist for a checklist, I guess. But it's, you know, I. I just, you know, we truly do hold ourselves accountable and do our utmost best to deliver the best we possibly can. And. And I'd be very, very surprised to find, you know, many other people out there that are willing to go the extra mile that we do sort of thing. So. But, you know, we just want our customers to be happy at the end of that. If they're not happy, we're not happy with things, you know, so it's really important that, you know, they're happy with things. And, you know, it's just a beautiful journey that we all go on together.

Yeah. And I think that's. I mean, that's what I'd want if someone was building my home for me. Checklist on a checklist to make sure that everything was perfect.

Yeah. No, look, look, mate, it's. You know, that that's come with many, many years of being very persistent. Yeah. But, you know, for ourselves, there's many moving parts happening day to day, minute by minute, you know, through, you know, our business there. And, you know, when things change and evolve, it's a matter of, you know, evolving with that and, you know, updating or changing or implementing a new system or process or checklist, as we say there, that, that, that, that's going to make sure that that's going to still be done to the standard that we hold ourselves accountable for.

Actually, that's a good segue. You mentioned earlier about trusting other people to uphold your standards in the business. I imagine that's a common challenge for any business owner, but especially builders, just giving up a little bit of control so you can get that leverage back but also still uphold the standards that you want for the business. How have you done that? What's the main thing that you've implemented which is giving you that trust of other people to do the work?

Look, once again, that comes with time. But I think if the person in that specific, you know, field is willing to learn, like, for me, it's not about having the most qualified person, you know, they, if they've got good, you know, approaches of, you know, that will to learn, that thirst for knowledge, you know, and are happy to sort of grow, you know, from making mistakes, you know, like, I don't discourage anybody for making mistakes. There's, you know, we all make mistakes, but that's how you grow and you evolve for making those mistakes. But I guess as I said, we've got, you know, good systems and processes in place there that, you know, I've got documented, you know, pretty much everything that, you know, happens through the building company there, if it's on paper or video or, you know, in our manuals and things there. But, you know, as I said, things do change and evolve and if something new does come up there, there were the first ones to sort of, you know, combat that there and, you know, educate everyone around that there. So there's that comfort that people can come to me and if there's something that they don't know, I'm, you know, more than happy to sort of go through that and explain that there in more detail. And that's a same thing with our customers there. You know, they can always approach us and talk to us about sort of stuff there as well. You know, that's never a silly question. You know, it's just important that everyone's on that same page, you know, and, and I guess when you're sort of recruiting or you have staff, there you know, their confidence and you know, it builds over time as well, you know, and just comes down with, you know, time and experience and.

Yeah, I like that. So I mean, obviously you've got the systems and the manuals in place to uphold that quality. But then the real, the real, I guess genius of it is just hiring the right people and hiring them based on that learning mentality is what you're saying.

Yeah, 100% there, you know, like, and it is very hard to find the right people and, and we're very selective with who we actually work with there as well. They've got to be a good fit for how we operate and the things that we stand by and that transitions into a great experience for our customers.

Yeah, cool. Another thing you've mentioned a couple of times is keeping your finger on the pulse and staying up to date with trends and everything. And you mentioned that was a bit of a challenge sometimes being regional because other builders don't necessarily have that same mindset. How have you gone about keeping your finger on the pulse in the industry?

Look for myself there, we're always trying to be as proactive as we can there and you know, you might be going to local seminars or you know, different sort of events there from, you know, master builders, but it's also then, you know, connecting with like minded, I guess, builders there, you know, and that's something we've been able to do with the, the APB there as well. So, you know, working with more like minded people there, it definitely does help the situation.

And you're talking about going to events where you get to talk to other builders about the challenges they're facing as well. Is that what you mean? Information sharing?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, most definitely. As I said, you know, I've got, you know, a group of builders there, I guess there now that it seems to be getting larger and larger that we're all connected and affiliated with and you know, we're always very upfront and honest with each other and I guess the, the old mentality there and you know, still is very common in the industry there that especially for building companies that, you know, they don't talk, they don't share, they, you know, they don't sort of support each other there because I think there's a lot of people out there that are, you know, quite greedy. They want everything, you know, I mean, and you know, for ourselves there were only focused on what we can control and you know, that we only take on what we can control and make sure we, that we, you know, can Deliver that there to them. And I guess when you got the opportunities there to work with, you know, more like minded builders and that there as well, it's a lot more refreshing. You know, we're not alone out there with stuff there. A lot of people I guess over the past, you know, haven't been aware of these sort of other areas that you can connect with people. And I think connecting and communicating is a really powerful thing.

Yeah, that's great. And you, and you find that you learn a lot from builders in different geographies and stuff that you can apply back in Bundaberg.

Look, every area is different there and it's probably not necessarily the loan like it's probably, I guess more just the camaraderie around, you know, and just knowing that, you know, we're all experiencing very similar things there. And yes, I'm sure there's things that one person might be doing that we might be able to sort of improve on, you know, to, you know, help out our customers or whatever that happens to be there. But I think you've got to have the will to actually put yourself out there and want to learn. And you know, I think that, you know, going back into very early days, I won Apprentice of the Year and one of the things that they said on there that I had like a thirst of knowledge and a will to learn and now that you sort of have that aha moment and you reflect back on that and I guess I always have had that like I've always been interested in improving myself and being able to do something better no matter what is you might have something done really well now, but there's always probably a better way of doing it next time or more efficient way of doing something there. So it's a matter I guess is walking around with your eyes open, you know, and being open to actually evolve, you know, not to sort of, you know, stay still.

Well, congrats mate. You won Apprentice of the Year. When was that?

Oh, many, many years ago. But yeah, it's just something that sort of come to my mind and you know, it's funny how you sort of have discussions like these and you sort of can reminisce on different things that sort of all interconnect, you know, along the journey there.

Yeah, it's interesting the, the thread from, you know, the, the feedback you got back as an apprentice about having a learn learning mentality and, and by the sounds of it, that's been one of the key parts of the way you've built your business. The people you've hired the way you've improved every year, which is, yeah, it's a great mindset to have.

It is. And look, I stand by like what I said, like it's really important, I think that you thoroughly enjoy what you do. You know, like as much as everyone would love not to be working, they're doing stuff there. But I think if you're going to be working, it's important that you thoroughly do enjoy what you're doing. And you know, for us, you know, it is about making those great connections and building those relationships there across the whole community. And it's not just our customers, it's our suppliers, our contractors and you know, like our staff. Like, you know, like we are just like one big family, you know, and it's really nice, you know, really, really enjoyable and you know, for me to sort of look back and upon all that sort of stuff there, it is very rewarding, you know, for myself.

So talking a little bit more about apb, you mentioned the community aspect has been really valuable to you. Would you say that's the biggest takeaway you've taken from joining APB and now you're in the elite mentoring program as well?

Look 100% there. Like for me it's always been about focusing on all those little 1 percenters because I'm always looking at ways to improve there. And it's great to sort of have another set of eyes, I guess on things that, you know, things can be done differently or better and you know, connecting with more like minded people there, like, it's definitely been a great asset to us.

Awesome. Any advice you'd give builders out there who are, you know, fighting the battle day to day running a building company?

It is. Look, I think at times there you've got to take that step back and look at the big picture. You know, sometimes you've got to, you know, work backwards to go forwards there, you know, look at what you're trying to achieve yourself, you know. But for me personally, I think fully gut instinct there, like you generally know, you know, if it's right or it's not for you. Like, you know, it's a, it's a tough gig. You know, it's not easy being a builder and you know, running any form of a company there. But you know, it's important that you know, you do enjoy it. That's the number one thing. Find that balance with work life, you know, with family and things, you know, and if you're not getting that there, you know, it might be something that needs to be reflected upon and, and see if there's something else that might be a better fit. But the other thing would just be, is staying consistent. You know, sometimes you may feel trapped in areas there and there might be any light at the end of the tunnel, but, you know, keep at it. You know, if you're really truly passionate about it and it's something that you, you know, 100 going to commit to, you know, it will get better if you're willing to put the time in and just stay consistent with it.

Yeah, I love that, Norm. Well, I mean, the biggest takeaways I've taken from our chat today is just exactly that. Your learning mentality and just chipping away at the 1 percenters day on day, year on year really has a larger impact on, by the sounds of it, your life and your business. So I think that's a huge takeaway for builders out there.

No, look at this, mate. You know, and it's something that I said. You reflect back on all the years and the things you've, you've done and, you know, it's, it is a pleasure to sort of see how I guess you evolve and things have changed and how you're growing from that there. But, you know, it's just important that you grow safely and, and enjoy what you're doing most of all.

Yeah, absolutely. What, so what's next for nwc?

Look for ourselves there. It's just staying consistent. You know, it really is like we're really in a good place. It's really, really, really, you know, it's really great to see what we have achieved over those years and we just want to maintain that there, you know, for ourselves there. We're not looking at being the biggest builder, you know, in Bundaberg or Queensland or wherever we happen to be there. It's just about, you know, knowing what we want to achieve from that there and being able to deliver what we said we're going to deliver there. You know, for us, you know, our customers are number one and we want to make sure that they are super proud of what we have delivered for them. So stay true to our, you know, what we believe in and just stick to our guns.

Yeah, perfect. Well, Norm, thanks for coming on Professional Builder Secrets Today. I've had a great time chatting to you and learning about the journey of NWC and where you've come from, having such a long history in the building industry. But yeah, really appreciate you coming on the show.

No, well, mate, been a pleasure. Like I said, it's actually been quite nice to do a bit of reflection myself there and bring back some really great fond memories. So, no, thank you very much. It's been really good.

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