116. Builders Mental Health With Adrien Mamet

The stats are out there and there's a lot of focus on the builders who are going under, but not enough is being talked about the onflow effects of every other construction company that comes in behind it.

Welcome to Professional Builders Secrets, the podcast for building company owners wanting to grow safely and securely. I'm your host, Will Blunt, and today I'm joined by Adrian Mamey from Build Up Australia. Welcome to the show, Adrian.

Thank you very much, Will. There you go.

How did I go with the last name? I stumbled a little bit there.

Nah, nah, you hit the nail on the head, mate. Perfect, perfect.

Well, great to have you on the show today, Adrian, and I'm really excited to hear more about Build Up Australia because you're doing some amazing work with builders here in Australia.

Thanks, Will. Yeah, I appreciate that.

So tell me, what is Build Up Australia and how did it all start?

Mate, it's. Look, it came about quite by accident. So a number of years ago, I got together with about nine other builders and we sat down at meetings once a month just to keep improving our businesses. Like, we all had coaches, we're all part of. A lot of us were part of APB and we were already putting systems and processes in place, but we just felt there was just that little thing missing. And when we started meeting with other builders once a month, we found there's that shared relatability. And you all of a sudden had this group of guys who really understood your problems. And we were able to lean on each other and just, you know, sort of implement a lot of the systems and processes a lot quicker than if we had been tackling it on our own. And that's predominantly where it started. It was essentially just trying to get the upper hand on every other builder out there by collaborating rather than looking at the other builders as competition.

So what is the core problem you're trying to solve for the industry or for the builders individually?

Look, I think initially it was a case of there's coaches out there, and like apb, it'd be one of the best ones with your systems and processes. The issue that I personally had and a couple of the other builders had was when you're trying to juggle running a construction company, putting these systems and processes into place and trying to get your clients, and you're wearing so many different hats, it became really overwhelming. So by getting together with other builders, we're able to sit down and sometimes one of the other builders may have put a system together, which meant that you didn't have to really reinvent the wheel, you could sort of either copy or reverse engineer what they had and quickly adapt it to your business. So we found that everybody had their strengths, everybody had their weaknesses. And by coming together, it allowed us to improve our businesses a lot quicker than had we just tackled it on our own. So that was where it started. I call buildup the accidental mental health initiative, because although it started as trying to get that upper edge or the upper leg during COVID we really came together as a tight group. And when all the other builders and all the other tradies were navigating Covid on their own, we had a core group of 10 builders who came together once a month. And we were able to lean on each other, help each other through with all the changing dynamics and the changing ecosystem that everybody was faced with. Being able to tackle that as a group, rather than singularly really alleviated a lot of stress for us. And in fact, it alleviated so much stress that at one point there, one of the members actually put his hand up and told the group, look, guys, I'm struggling. And it was at that moment that I realized what we developed as a group allowed us to feel safe enough to be able to put our hand up and go, I'm struggling. And I'm able to share that with you because I know all you guys are struggling as well. We're all in the same boat. We've discussed this so much, and that was probably where that seed was planted.

Yeah, that's really powerful because there's a certain. Well, there has been for a long time, a certain stigma attached to putting your hand up. Right.

100%, especially in our industry. I mean. Yeah, we're all tough blokes. I mean, look, the building industry has some of the toughest, hardest men and women in the country, without a doubt. And it is something that we do hold with a lot of pride. Yeah, our toughness. But unfortunately, it also leads us to that point where we really don't want to talk about it. And although things are changing, there's a core element within the construction industry that's missing out, and that is a construction business owner. You know, so that. That is where the gap that build up is or build up Australia is looking to fill. Create an environment where construction business owners are able to not only improve their businesses, but also improve their mental health.

Yeah, great. But before we dive further into what build up does and the mechanics of everything that you're doing with your support and everything like that, if we can just take a step back for a moment, what Other trends are you seeing in the construction industry when it comes to mental health?

Look, we're seeing a lot of different trends. There's a lot of different companies coming at it from different angles and everybody is doing an awesome job of it. We're really close to the guys at TX and what trademark and TX is doing. Just removing that stigma and just getting people to talk about it is a great move. It's a great move and really hats off to the guys in starting something like that. It's a beautiful thing. There are other elements, we've got mates in construction that are out there as well. But the core issue that we've found with all of it is we're going to need hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of these different entities to be able to look after the construction industry. It's just too big. It's huge.

And I know that you, you talk about, there's a number of stats you talk about on your website as well in terms of insolvencies, you know, builders taking their lives and things like that. Are you seeing that increase with the current economic environment that, that everyone's facing?

Yeah, unfortunately that's. That that has seen a massive increase. As you know the current environment, we're seeing more builders than ever before reaching that insolvency. And the problem is that knock on effect. So the builder goes down but then you've got all the other construction companies that have been supporting that builder. A lot of those can't survive as well. So you might have the sparky, the plumber, the carpenters. If they don't get paid, they may be looking at insolvency as well. So the stats are out there and there's a lot of focus on, on the builders who are going under. But not enough is being talked about the on flow effects of every other construction company that comes in behind it.

Yeah, absolutely. And like that's just a flow on effect not only of, you know, financial challenges, but mental challenges as well.

Yeah, 100%. 100%. And look, it does tie into the suicide rates as well. You know, you've got to realize majority of construction companies out there are named after the bloke running it or the woman running it. You know, we're, you know, as, as far as business people are concerned, you know, we take a lot of pride in what we do as a tradie and you know, when a tradie or a builder launches their company, you know, nine times out of ten they'll name it after themselves. I know I did with my company Right. So, you know, you've got your name sitting right here, right above your heart, so your identity is wrapped up in your company. Okay. And you're proud of what you're putting out and then, you know, to have your then going solvent, you know, it's an attack on your name, it's an attack on your surname. And, you know, as company owners, we don't like to be seen as failures. It's, it's, you know, that, that really does cause a lot of guys to start wondering, you know, would I be better off not being here? You know, so, yeah, we have seen a huge increase in both insolvencies and unfortunately, suicides.

Yeah. It becomes part of your identity, like even more so, as you mentioned, with the naming of the company, if it's attached to your last name. Yeah. It must be, must be challenging.

Oh, 100%. 100%, yeah. It's really tough.

So what, what can the industry do as a whole to address this better, we feel?

Look, the, the big issue we found is, is like I hit before. There's 360 odd thousand construction companies in Australia, right. So nine out of ten of those are small mum and dad operations, five to ten employees. Yeah. They're tiny, tiny businesses. In order for people like mates in construction or other entities that are trying to assist, you need a hell of a lot of feet on the ground in order to hit all these companies and hit them properly and it's just never going to happen. As a building industry, we're really, really good at fixing things. We build stuff, we fix stuff. That is what we do. I think now's the time to look at banding together and fixing our mental health together. And that comes with a change of mindset. We've always, let's take it back a step as business owners. Majority of us come back, come through a sporting background, so we're taught from a young age, we're indoctrinated. When we're on the footy team. Yeah, you don't talk to that other team, they're the enemies. Don't let them know you're hurt, don't talk to them, don't share anything, just keep to yourself. You start taking that through the ranks when you become an apprentice. If you're really, really lucky, you might do your apprenticeship with one other person. Here's your peer. Apart from that, most of us Left school at 16. We had our peer support network. Left school at 16, 17, entered an apprenticeship. We're in an adult's world, man's world, on our Own, with no peer support, then you become a tradie, right? Again, you're sort of very much left to your own. You may be working with one or two other tradies and you may develop a bit of a peer network there. Then one day you turn around to your mates and you turn around to your family, you go, you know what? I've decided to go out on my own. And you've started again. You continue this. It's a business of solitude. You're always on your own. So what we're trying to do at buildup is trying to get people to go, hey, look, instead of looking at other builders as your competition, why not band together and collaborate with a small group and have that group compete with the other builders, right? Create that core network that supports each other and yet you can rely on.

Do you think there's an element of that whole concept of going out on your own, especially, I mean, as a business owner, but in the, in the building industry that makes people believe that they need to go it alone?

Yeah, look, I think there is. There's also that thing of social media plays a big part in it, because we don't share on social media, we don't share the losses that we have. The client that just threw the brick at you, you don't know how to handle that one. What we're posting is the wins and it sort of leads you in a false sense of security where you think that everybody else around you is winning and you must be the only one suffering. And it's not true. So, yeah, I feel the social media's got a lot to play in that area.

Well, it's so hard, right, because as you said, you see everyone else and it looks like everyone's killing it, which is not the case. Everyone's got their own stuff they're going through, but it makes it even harder to put your hand up because you're worried about letting someone down, being judged, being a failure, all those things you mentioned.

Yeah, especially being judged. You know, I think we all have. Have an issue with being judged. So it's difficult to put yourself out there. And it takes, you know, it takes a bit of time to allow people in, especially when you've been on your own for so long, you know, you've worn all the different hats. Even now you get so many builders when they first start their business, they hold on to every element. You know, you'd probably see it through APB too. You're trying to get them to implement different systems and strategies. It's like, oh no, no, I in house. And I'm not going to let that go. I'm not going to let that go. So yeah, sharing those losses with other members of their fraternity, their peer network, it's really difficult to do. So it takes time to create those networks where you've got that shared relatability and with that shared relatability the stories come out, you start being able to trust each other a bit more and you start being able to open up.

Yeah, I had my own business for almost a decade and I remember the self dialogue I'd have. Almost every time I'd speak to someone they'd be like, how you going? I'm like, oh yeah, great. Like, you know, the business is going great. Like it's almost like you had to convince yourself all the time that that was the case and it just gets you down after a while.

Yeah, yeah it does. I mean it's, you hit the nail on the head. Our self dialogue, it's almost like it's on automatic. You'll never, ever tell someone, oh no, I had a shit week, you know, really, really bad week this week. Yeah, even when you've got no work coming in and oh, I'm busy, flat out, you don't want to be seen as being not busy. So yeah, that self dialogue really plays a massive part in affecting your mental health as well. You're trying to convince yourself you're doing all right.

Yeah, exactly. But I do remember as soon as you find people that you realize are going through the same thing as you, like you mentioned, and you can have open conversations in a trusted environment which doesn't affect your social and day to day life. It's, it's, it's a trusted kind of space. It makes a huge difference, doesn't it?

Doesn't it? And that's the thing, like there's a lot of, a lot of groups out there that are getting together. Like I know you got bni, you know, they get all these business people together and that's, that's pretty good. But what we found was if you don't have that shared relatability, you know, I can't sit across from a mechanic and understand what he's going through on a day to day basis. I have no idea. Yeah, even an electrician or a plumber, they're in the construction industry. But I've got no idea idea what sort of things they're going through on a day to day basis. But you sit me across the table from another builder, I guarantee I know what's going through his head, you know, I'm living his life. I know what's going on. So when you're able to sit opposite someone who truly understands the issues that you're facing on a day to day basis, that opens up a lot of doors to being able to be a little bit more vulnerable, to be opening up. And, and you know, if you are in need of help, to be able to put your hand up and go, look, I'm struggling, you know.

Yeah, that's the strongest thing you can do. It's hard, but if you can get to that point, it kind of opens the floodgates in a way.

It does, it does. And look, at the end of the day, it's nothing to be ashamed of. You know, I was watching another podcast with Dane Pierce and I forget the builder. He was, he was interviewing at the time and the builder mentioned that, you know, they should hand out your builder's license and a script for antidepressants. And I went, wow, yeah, that's so true in our industry. It's almost like starting up a business in a construction industry goes hand in hand with affecting your mental health. And we need to take a better stand on improving mental health. And there's so many ways to do it. It's just having the resources there to be able to tap into. And what works for one person may not work for another. You know, I know builders who are on antidepressants, I know others who just can't, can't deal with it and that they use other elements, they do other things to help their mental health. And you know, and then you got the other group of construction business owners and people in the industry that self medicate, you know, whether that's drugs or alcohol or what, it's rampant in our industry.

Yeah. And I guess the issue with that is you want to make sure, I mean, if you're on any, like there's a place for antidepressants, not getting into that conversation. But as long as you're not masking something and therefore avoiding talking about it, because I think that is what we're going to get back to this. Like, if you're just covering it up, it's not going to help.

Yeah, exactly. Right. I think, you know, no matter what you do, whether it's, you know, taking the antidepressants or, you know, self medicating or what, there is an element of that masking. You know, we need to tackle it at the core and try to get guys sitting down with their peers so they can create that environment where they can start opening up a bit more and realizing that, hey, look, you're not the only one going through these issues at the moment. You know, those issues are shared. And that's the other thing. You know that saying problem shared is problem halved. So true. When you get into a chapter. Yeah, yeah.

And I guess that's a good segue. So tell me a bit more about build up and what it actually looks like in practice for members.

Yeah, sure. So look, as I said, build up was really, you know, it's an accidental mental health initiative. It was designed to help construction business owners to get together once a month. We sit down at meetings for breakfast, there's no alcohol involved. It's a proper business meeting. They go for about three hours and we sit down and we share our wins, our losses and our bottlenecks. So, you know, that the idea being that by sharing our wins, we each, you know, we've got someone there who understands how important those wins are. You know, sharing the losses sort of show the fact that, you know, you're not on your own with those losses. We all have our losses. And then you've got the bottlenecks where you know, things that are maybe keeping your business from growth or you might be stuck in a certain area. So when you sit down at a chapter meeting with no, there's no more than nine other members, okay, they're small. You're effectively sitting down with around about a hundred years worth of construction industry experience directly related to your trade. And then every month that you're sitting down a new meeting, there's another 10 months worth of exposure that you're now able to tap into if you're wise enough to really open up and share. So we've got those meetings. The more you give, the more you get back. You know, that's the crux of the build up Australia model. From that we're feeding all sorts of resources. So APB are one of our partners and we've got a really good deal with you guys. And being able to introduce a lot of new builders to the APB ecosystem, for example, is another step in trying to combat the issues that lead to poor mental health. So that's just one of the resources. We've got a number of different resources and we continue to bring new resources every day to the platform.

Where are those meetings held? Are they in different cities? How many different cities do you have set up?

Yeah, right now, look, we've got one in each of the capitals, okay? But obviously we've only just Launched. We are growing, generally just held in the coffee shop. So we look for small mum and dad coffee shops as well. Well, to partner up with. Yeah. Let's sit down, have a coffee, have some brekkie with the boys and. And really go through your business and, you know, share and help each other out.

Yeah, I love that. Do you have any stories you can share about the impact that those meetings have had on the people involved? Obviously you've shared a little bit about the. The impact it's had on you.

Yeah. Oh, look, so many stories. Yeah, little things like. Yeah, we had one of our members the other day. A few weeks ago, one of his jobs had actually been held up in council. So he put on the message board that he had five carpenters there that he was going to have to pay for the next sort of two to three weeks and had no work for them. So that's coming straight off his bottom line. Within about 20 minutes he had another one of the builders that went, I'll grab them. I've got two sites I need carpenters on. I'll grab them, I'll pay their wages and problem solved. So all of a sudden he went from stressing out about how. What he was going to do with his five carpenters for the next three weeks to offloading them and knowing that their wages are paid for and having three weeks up his sleeve to start working on his business and implementing processes within his business. So it was a massive, massive load off his shoulders. And that's just one. We've got another. A couple of members in one of our chapters here in Brisbane. Basically, one of the members decided, you know what, I'm going to wind up my business. He'd had enough. He was working in a family business and as soon as one of the other builders found out, he decided to leave it. He's offered him a job and so they partnered up. They were now working together and both of them have just. Both their business. Yeah, like together, that business has just gone through the roof. You know, having two builders who had been so tight and then combining their talents and their knowledge into. Into what they're doing now. Yeah, they're a formidable company now. It's. It's beautiful to watch. Yeah.

And without that, that knowing each other from meeting at something like this, they probably just would have thrown the towel in, potentially.

Yeah. Yeah. Would have gone work for someone else and, you know, probably would have been unhappy. But, you know, from all accounts, yeah, from what we've been told, that they're. They're stuck you know, the guys are happy as. That's just a couple. I mean. Yeah, there's so many great stories that come out of these. It's, you know, we've got an old saying. Yeah. If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. Yeah. And that's what we're proving in these chapters is every single business is really starting to, you know, level up with the support. And I'm not going to say it's the help of other builders, because help, when you ask for help, it means that you're helpless. And I don't think any construction business owner is helpless, but they do need support. And to think that you can do it on your own without support, you're kidding yourself. We all need support. It just depends on whereabouts it is, what type of support. Yeah.

You've also created a sub brand of build up called Build Up Apprentice. I can see it on the other side of your shirt there on the other.

Yep.

Talk to me about what that is.

Okay. Sort of goes hand in hand. So on the one half, we, we're looking to build up Australia and we want to improve the construction industry by teaming everyone together. But if we don't look at the root cause of the problem, then it's always just going to be that band aid fix. Right. So we've got to go back to where it all starts, and that is with our apprentices. Now, when we were looking at it, you know, we were, we were seeking government funding and a lot of the government industries were coming back to us and saying, look, you know, we'll fund you. You just got to figure out how to attract more apprentices into the industry. We thought, okay, well, that shouldn't be too difficult. Let's have a look at that. And what we came to realize was we don't have an, an issue with attracting more apprentices. Right. We're attracting a crapload. The problem is the attrition rate for apprentices within the construction industry is 48% by year two. And then it goes. We lose more year three, we lose more at year four. So the completion rate for apprentices is a fraction of what those that start. So we had a look at what the core issue was there and unfortunately, a lot of people go, oh, that's the money. They're not getting paid enough. But the more we looked into it, we thought, no, that's not it at all. We got engineers, we got architects, we've got doctors and nurses and all these people who go through tertiary qualification and have to pay for their schooling. Apprentices don't pay, they get paid to learn. The problem they have is quite often they're used as cheap labor. So year one and year two, they're still pushing brooms and digging ditches, they're not actually learning their trade. So they get to a case where they are feeling really disjointed and go, well, if this is all that I'm good for, there's no point being in this industry, there's no point being in the trade. And the on file effect from that is we end up with a whole heap of apprentices who, you know, those that do finish their time, come out qualified. And you know, I personally, I've had carpenters, qualified carpenters who can't swing a door, can't put a frame together. It's like, what the hell were you taught? So what we realized is we needed an avenue to mentor the apprentices or to advocate for them. So we set up Build Up Apprentice. And the idea being that any apprentice that joins Build Up Apprentice will be teamed up with a mentor. Generally it's a member of Build Up Australia. And those mentors are tasked with once a month calling up their mentee, their apprentice. They've been tasked with just to check up on them, make sure that they're doing all right and letting them know that that apprentice has got an advocate in their corner. So if their boss is taking advantage of them or whatever, they can speak up. Okay. Quite often they'll go home and they'll tell their parents, look, Mum, Dad, I've decided to throw this in, I'm not learning anything. And mum and dad turn around, go, look, you've only got another year or you've only got another two years. Just stick it out, it'll go pretty quick. They shouldn't have to stick it out. They should be learning their trade. So the idea is to advocate for them and set up a triage system. So if we do identify apprentices who are having a rough time of it, we can upsell that or upscale that to the training organization and say, hey, look, you've got an apprentice here who's got issues you need to follow up on.

It sounds like there's a bit of responsibility, a lot of responsibility on the construction business owners to provide better pathways and better experience for apprentices.

Or there is. I mean, look, you've hit the nail on the head, really speaking. The construction business owner has a lot of responsibility for everything. Even on the mental health side of it. There's a lot of things out there to assist us as construction business owners to look after our employees. The problem is there's nothing there for us, us to look after ourselves. So, yeah, I think as construction business owners, we just need to step up and go, hey, look, yeah, we do have to take that road, you know, and we don't need to do it on our own.

It's great advice, Adrian. Well, thanks so much for coming on Professional Builders Secrets today. You provided a huge amount of value to our listeners out there and also I just love the work you're doing in trying to make some real positive change in the industry. So thanks for coming on. Is there any further advice you want to give to the listeners out there?

Yeah, just that what I finished up on. Just don't do it on your own. There's a lot of other men and women within the industry who really want to team up with good businesses and want to help each other. And I swear to God, you start teaming up with others, you will go a lot further than you can on your own.

Yeah, awesome advice. And there's things out there you can get involved with, like Build Up Australia or apb. They're going to help you get the, the support you need to move things forward. So check out. I'll include it in the show notes, but buildupaustralia.com is the web address where you can find out about everything that they're doing over there. And it's a great network and a great opportunity for people to get together.

Cool. Thanks, Will.

Cool. Well, thanks to all of our listeners out there as well, wherever you are in the world. If you like the show today, please subscribe to Professional Builder Secrets on your platform of choice. And if you're feeling generous, leave us a review. But until next time, have a great day.