123. Winding Down A Building Company With Russ, Sky & Andy

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You're under contract. You can't just walk away and you know, you know, turn off the lights, lock the door and not come back tomorrow. You're under contract. You're under obligation to fulfill all of your commitments.

Welcome to Professional Builder Secrets, the podcast for building company owners wanting to grow safely and securely. I'm your host, Will Blunt, and today I'm joined by the co founder of apb, Sky Coladay Sky. Welcome to the show.

Hey Will, how you doing?

Very well. Lovely to have you on again. We've also got our head coach, Andy Scarter on today.

Good day, everybody. Thank you for having me, Will.

Great to have you, Andy. And also the other co founder of appb, Ross Stevens. Ross, welcome.

Thanks, Will. Good to see you again. I think I'm spending more time with you than I spend with my wife at the moment.

Probably not a good thing then. We might need to correct that. But that's all right. Today we're talking about a pretty serious topic that comes up every now and then in the building industry and it's about winding down a building company. Andy, do you want to kick off by talking about what are some of the common reasons builders might look to wind down their company?

Well, I think they're going to fall into really one of two categories, either positive or negative. And probably the difference between the two would be what we're going to talk about for the rest of the of this podcast. So I won't go into too much detail, but obviously people get, get impacted by negative financial or personal events in their lives. So unfortunately we've seen this kind of thing happen when there's been a death in the family, for example, when there's been a divorce settlement that has brought about a change in financial circumstances or just, you know, the, the, the economic realities of that business at that time brings us about. Those would be the negative side of the scale. On the positive side, you know, we've had guys that have done very well as builders and decided they want to retire or they want to go and become a brain surgeon or an Accountant, you know, something aspirational. And they've decided it's time for them to move on. So it's, it. There's a variety of different things, as I say, probably split pretty much down the middle. Some of them good, some of them bad.

Sky. Are there any signs that indicate a building company should be winding down?

Ooh, should be. There's, there's, there's an emotional sign, and then there's like a black and white business perspective sign. Because really, like when, if you think maybe let's take winding down a building company off the table for a second, let's even just talk. Walking away from your building company, because winding down means shutting down. You're. You're not doing anything. It's, it's not like you're sailing it or selling it. Sorry. Or, or having a different strategy there. So if you were to just walk away from a building company, there are a few signs on when that I don't want to say should happen, but maybe is most likely to happen. And it's a lot of the time. And this is very, very, very common, even in a lot of conversations we have. When builders first come talking to us at apb, they're at like a crossroads emotionally. They're so exhausted, so drained from running the company for how long they've been running it up until this point, that they feel like that's the only option. Crossroads. Do I just walk away and have to start again doing something else or get a job or this or that, or do I persevere? And I think that's way more of an emotional indicator because that's all to do with your energy. Even your mindset on your ability has a lot to do with it as well. But then you got the flip side of, okay, well, how well is the building company actually going? And there's a huge, huge financial clue. You know, if it's not operating, like, particularly well, that's a huge sign that you actually need to consider all of your options. Okay, do you need to wind it down sooner rather than later? Because you can see the writing on the wall. You have very minimal workflow, you've got very high expenses, and you have no real sales funnel and prospects to even sign up contracts in the foreseeable future. So we need to make calls and decisions quick, quickly. So that becomes a lot more non emotional based on the data and based on the facts, instead of, you know, that other scenario, which is a lot more emotional. And it's all to do with, can I do this? So two, two Sides to that coin, I'd say.

Yeah.

And I think we have to accept and realize as well that not everyone has what it takes to run a successful building company. And that's not a derogatory comment in any way and running anyone down because we're all different. But if we're really honest, no one has what it takes in the beginning to run a successful building company. These are all skills that have to be learned. And the guys that don't learn the skills that are required to be successful in this industry, they. They just gradually burn out over time. And I'd probably go as far as saying, because builders, generally, they generally have a bit more in the tank than your typical business owner. Yeah, I'm talking in terms of tenacity and drive and vision. They've got a bit more than your typical business owner. And unfortunately, that means it can take a bit longer to actually burn them out completely. So it happens over a longer period. But nonetheless, I feel it comes down to those skills and that can lead to builders actually shutting the business down.

Just to amplify what Russ has just said, one of the dangers is, you know, we always talk on these podcasts about making sure that you understand your financials, that your financials are accurate, that the data that you are using to make decisions is. Is good quality data. And this, that plays into this decision in two ways. One, a lot of builders kind of arrive at this point very, very suddenly. The signs have actually been there for a while. They just didn't recognize them. And then all of a sudden, the reality confronts them. To go back to what sky said, for people that are in the category where they are starting to see some of those tendencies. Funnels not as full as they'd like it to be. Expenses are climbing quicker than they'd like them to. Don't wait, get help, don't. Don't sit there for another six months and run it, you know, kind of see if you can get through it. The biggest frustration we have in our business coaching and elite, well, not so much our elites, but our business coaching group is people that come to us too late. By the time they get to us, it's terminal. And if they just come three months earlier, we could have honestly helped them to turn it around. So I think we need to just make sure people are aware of, know your numbers and your data so that those things that we're talking about are evident early and then take action.

Is almost going into a discussion of voluntary and involuntary. Like, are you thinking about taking control of the situation and changing the course of your business and your building company by winding it down, shutting it down at a respectable position that you've not left anyone high and dry, or you want to wind it down for your own personal sake, or are we taking it past that point and really going like involuntary? And this is where we've got ourselves into a huge mess. And this is where, you know, we can get liquidated, go into administration. But it's it, it is a lot more forced than that because the situation's so dire. That's, that's another version of two sides of the coin. Like there, there are two choices you can make, and it's all dependent on how honestly reflective you are on situations, on how happy you are in the building company, how much you're putting into your building company and what you're getting out of your building company. That is, how profitable, successful, financially viable is it.

And I think this is a comment that certainly Russ and I have discussed a couple of times historically, if you think about the fact that it seems to be all over the world that it's the bigger building companies that we see in the news having failed. And part of the reason for that is they often have a more sophisticated accounting team and a better handle on their numbers, and they literally see it coming. And exactly as you said, Scott, they make the choice to not perpetuate the problem further because they realize that it's not going to turn around often with, with, with smaller builders, they don't have that degree of detail or that ability to interpret the financial data as well. And they, the guys that end up often in the involuntary because they didn't realize it was coming until it's too late.

Russ, I'm interested to hear it, your perspective on winding down a building company and how it can impact others, who gets impacted and how does that play out?

Well, when you're, when you're winding down, I mean, obviously it does impact all the stakeholders. So, you know, apart from the builder himself, the shareholders, there's the employees to consider, there's the subcontractors and suppliers in there, there's the clients. Everyone is impacted to a certain degree. But when it's being wound down correctly, the effect is quite minimal. Because when you think in terms of the builder themselves, the shareholders, they're winding down for a reason. They typically have a plan of what they want to do next, or they certainly should do. The last thing you want to do is wind down your building company and go through that exercise, which can be quite a lengthy process or a very lengthy process and not have a plan of what's going to happen next. So you got to have that plan in place. So the builder is generally reasonably okay as long as they've got the financial reserves in there to see the company through the wind down. The employees I would also suggest are in a reasonably good position because as long as everything's communicated to them, which it would be in this situation, then they've got ample opportunity and time to find an alternative job. And those people will generally get snapped up by other building companies in the market and even the suppliers and subcontractors, you know, it. As long as they get paid to be honest, it really doesn't matter too much to them because you know, the market is the market, there's other building companies out there that they can work for and, and supply. So as long as it's well planned and managed, which you know isn't always the case, but as long as that happens, the impact on, on other people is minimal. I mean the client, for instance, they are going to homes complete. You cannot wind down the building company without finishing the jobs that you've got. So I'd say when it's well planned and organized, then it's very minimal. The impact on the other people I'm.

Hearing a lot about. And sky, you've mentioned this a few times in terms of the burnout and almost just reaching this point where I need out that suggests to me that maybe they're not fully prepared to actually wind down the company. How long can this process take?

Well, it's such a good point because certainly when builders in that mindset or in the middle of that thought process come to apb, either having joined as a member and they're just looking at all of the resources and training and development that they could put into their building company, same with coaching. It could really just hit them with a wall of like, I, I don't know if I have this in me, I'm exhausted. And it's that crossroad that they're at and it feels like it genuinely can feel like and seems like to them moment that it's an easier option to wind down and close down the building company. But unfortunately we have to have this conversation not infrequently when someone feels this way and actually walk them through and to be honest, remind them that it's not easy at all to wind down a building company. It takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of effort certainly to do it properly as well. Because as Russ just said, you're under contract. You can't just walk away and, you know, turn off the lights, lock the door and not come back tomorrow. You're under contract, you're under obligation to fulfill all of your commitments. And so when you suddenly realize that some guys even have workflow and jobs on the go, they're not due to finish for another 12 months, 18 months. So that's the closest time that you are able to actually shut down. Suddenly it's like, okay, you need to keep putting in all this effort for another 18 months. So the conversation then begs, okay, are we going to put in all of this effort for the next. Say it is just 12 months for the next year, having to wind this down properly and do it properly with integrity, communicate well to our shareholders, to our employees, to our clients, what is happening and why you're not focusing on growth and doing this and that. Do we put the effort in to do it properly and get all of the right legal advice and financial advice and wrap things up in a bow, or do we take all of that effort we will have to put in because we can't not put it in. Do we take all of that effort, what we have to put in to do that, and instead put it into, well, how can I make the building company better so I don't feel like this? How can I not feel drained? Because maybe it's just that you're working too much. Maybe you need to employ more people, maybe you need to delegate more of the stuff that's already on your plate. It could be so many things. So I think it's worthwhile doing a full diagnostic. First of, why do you feel that way? Why are you feeling so exhausted? Because very often when we have this conversation, it's, you know, what if the building company was making the money that it's making, but I didn't have to work as much, or it's not as emotionally draining, or it's this or that or whatever. The. The owners that we're talking to often go, I would prefer to keep it like it is. Great. Like this is my source of income. It's just this part they don't like. So really that's what we would prefer to focus on. Let's focus on solving those one or two problems that are actually causing you all of this distress in own life before going down a path that is, it's very permanent. You're setting down, you're closing down and shutting down a whole business. And then as Russ said, you need to figure out what you're doing. After you either need to start a new one and start all over again, which is a lot of work in itself, or you will need, excuse me, to work for somebody else. And to be honest, a lot of guys, if you've been doing this for yourself for a long time, you're pretty much unemployable because it's very difficult to listen to someone else and take direction, and it becomes really difficult. And I think psychologically, that's a big impact for a lot of people as well. It feels even more like, for lack of better word, a failure having to work for someone else when you've been your own boss for so long.

Just to highlight as well, I think something that sky just alluded to, it's very easy to get into this industry as a builder, you know, relatively easy to get started, especially when you compare it to how difficult it is to get out. And that can lead to owners of building companies feeling trapped and quite despondent and can lead to them carrying on far longer than they would have wanted to because it is so difficult to wind down a building company, the bigger it gets. And I think, as a rule of thumb as well, you've got to look at the size of the contracts you're doing, because typically, the bigger the contracts, then the longer it's gonna take to actually wind your building company down. And probably the other thing that we should highlight here, that winding down is very, very different to being wound up, which is a situation that you could find yourself in if you do not address this. If you're thinking of winding your business down and you don't take action, then you could yourself in a situation a bit further down the track where you're actually being wound up. And that is a horrific experience for everyone. It's very different from the situation that described earlier, where, you know, everything's relatively rosy for clients, for subcontractors, for suppliers, for the builder themselves and the staff. We. We end up with a situation that's quite horrific for all of those people. The pain and suffering for a builder is something that no builder should ever have to go through, because personal guarantees are in place to suppliers and even the government authorities, which can lead to the builder literally losing everything, both physical assets and relationships as well. And I think everyone listening to this podcast is all very aware of the impact that a building company being wound up has on the client. You know, we see that it's very well publicized in the media, but what isn't publicized so well is the effect that it has on that builder themselves. They're actually portrayed as crooks in the vast majority of cases. Yet in the vast majority of cases, I would probably suggest north of 90%, they're not crooks at all. They're. Yeah, unfortunately, yeah. Victim to a certain extent of the circumstances. Yes, they, you know, the, they are in the position they are because of the decisions they made, but those decisions were never made maliciously or with the intent to deceive people and end up in the situation they are. So I think they get treated very, very unfairly. So being wound up is probably the one thing that you must always avoid. And if that means winding down earlier in the journey, then that's something you have to seriously look at.

Yeah.

And I think, Russ, just to highlight what you just said, the difference even in, in, you know, what we're talking about, we're talking about winding down, which means it's a proactive decision that the builder takes rather than a reactive situation that somebody else made the decision for you. And, you know, I think that's the difference is if you are proactive and you take the steps, it can be a reasonably straightforward process. Let's rather do that than the other way around.

You know, who does this really well? It's actually really successful business. People in the world do this very well because they're non emotional about it. And I think that's the difference. If you're not emotionally looking ahead at your business and your building company and looking at, you know, what is viable, what is not, are you prepared to put in what it's going to take to turn it around? Or do we make the call now and wind it down respectfully, professionally and do right by everyone? There are so many businesses that do this all the time, all around the world, and you don't look at these, you know, I don't want to say the word businessman. Business people out there that do this all the time because they're less emotional about it, they know, okay, you know what, they had their quitting point. We're going to shut it down, you know, get everyone new jobs. Like this business is no longer viable. But that's not seen as a global failure. They made the call early and did the, the right thing. It's very different. As you guys have just said, when you're getting wound up, it's. It's actually quite a quick process to get wound up, but it stays with you a lot longer. So it almost could feel that's why it is just so much worse, but that you can get shut down pretty quickly when you are in that bad, bad position.

Well, is there any chance you could tell us a joke? Because I want to cry at the moment.

I haven't done a stand up comedy course like you, Andy, so maybe you can take over.

Yeah, it's just. Look, I mean, I think it's important that we, we're making people understand that we, we really don't want this to be about those involuntary, ugly scenarios. What we're talking about here is exactly what sky has said. For whatever the reason is, we're going to do this, we're going to do it properly. And because we're going to do it properly, the, the outcome will be positive, not, not negative.

Yeah. What I'm hearing is like, it really needs to be a deliberate choice one way or the other to wind down or to improve your business.

Yeah. And I mean, the weird thing is I've had obviously experience with a couple of clients and it's always been the same outcome. They've come into the discussion saying, I'm done, I've had enough, I want to get out. And then when we look at all of the practicalities that we've spoken about already in this episode, the fact that contractually you are bound for the next 18 months or 19 months, you are committed to suppliers, you are committed to, you know, associations, etc, etc, it isn't something that you can literally just turn the lights off at the end of the day and walk away. What starts to happen is when we start to plan what is going to need to be done to do it properly. There comes that aha moment for them at some point in that conversation where they go, well, if it's, if, if I'm going to do all of that, it's going to work wonderfully and then why would I want to close it down? And that's the point at which we literally sit back and smile because it, it's going to take as much effort to wind it down as it is to fix it. So at the end of the day, what we're really saying is you've always got the option of doing, as sky said earlier, doing what's necessary to fix the bits that are broken. In which case you can now, instead of winding it down, you could sell it because now it's a viable business, or you could pass it onto your management team or whatever, if you had just decided, I'm done and want to get out. So I think that's really something that we should focus on, that doing it properly often brings a result that you didn't expect.

Yeah, I think what Andy's really highlighted there is the one missing component as to why businesses, not just building companies, but why most businesses aren't successful. And it's that lack of a plan. We all start businesses with a plan, don't we? Or we think we do because it's in our heads.

Head.

But really, unless it's written down, that is not a business plan. That is simply a dream. And like Andy says, once, once you get to that point, you know, if you don't have a plan, then your business isn't going to be, you know, as successful as you thought it would be when you started it. And you might end up at that point where you're thinking of winding it down. But to wind down requires a plan. And when you start planning, you realize that there is, there is a way of doing this a lot better than I have. And ye, like Andy says, in a lot of cases, that changes the path that these guys are on, which is great.

And it's just another proof of that. You know, there's a statement that says, business is simple, it's not easy. It's just another one of those, whichever way you decide you're going to go, the steps are pretty straightforward. They're not complicated, they're not easy. And we mustn't get those two words mixed up because they're not the same at all in this context. So it's again, one of those things of, of let's do it properly. And if we're going to do it properly, there is a pretty clear Runway on what needs to be done and the outcome of that will be positive.

Yeah, business is simple. When you follow a blueprint.

Yeah.

When you, when you model what other successful people have done, that's when it becomes pretty simple, doesn't it?

And I think we often say in these, you know, we have these conversations with builders where we say to them, would you go onto a blank site without a set of blueprints or a plan and build a house? And they're all horrified. No, of course. Course not. What idiot would do that? Well, why don't you have a plan for your business? Then? If you're planning to wind down, why don't you have a plan in exactly the same way as you? And think about it. I mean, Russ highlights this regularly. To build a house is an incredibly complex process. You've got so many moving parts and so many people and so many disciplines that need to happen in exactly the right sequence to bring about that beautiful building at the end. There's no Question that you have the ability to organize and control and manage. That's not in question. It's just we've got to move that skill set and realign it, refocus it on this new thing that's got to be done. But just bring those. Those talents and abilities that you all already have and just focus them now on achieving this next process.

Okay, so there's been some talk of doing this properly. Sky, do you want to go through the steps that a builder would take if they are starting to think about winding down their company?

The first one, I think, is reach out. And you got to be honest to someone in your corner, someone emotionally invested. Sure. I think this is why we have circles. You need your partner, whether that's an actual business relationship or a personal relationship, you need to actually talk about this through. But then you also need to talk it through with someone impartial. This is why we always talk about the value of coaching and accountability, because it's actually. Am I. It's understanding. Look, am I having an emotional moment because I've had a terrible week? Maybe it's been a terrible month. Maybe it's been a terrible year. And how objective am I being in this situation or is that I'm officially done? I think that's. It's almost like step zero. We need to really establish emotionally, where are we at and then logically, where are we at so we can get it all out onto the table. Say you have spoken with your coach, with your relationships, and it actually is decided proactively. We're going to wind it down. I have a plan for what we're going to do next year. The rough timeline, now I need to execute it. If we're talking about that conversation, the first thing we need to do is make sure we take action as soon as possible. Because if we leave it and let it linger, everything that we've just talked about is going to happen and it doesn't end well. So we need to make sure we do this right, we do it correctly. So we need to go through the right channels as quickly as possible. I would ensure you set up a meeting with your lawyer and just review those contracts. What are you obligated to, even for your current contracts, but even the builds that you have finished, what is on you? What are you obligated to either continue doing? How long are your guarantees going for? What are all of your liabilities? For lack of better word, then I would as soon as possible also have that meeting with your accountant. Financially, what are your obligations? Where are you sitting right now. Now, again, as a building company owner, you should be very across all of your financials and your figures. You're not asking them to show you this for the first time, but it's actually communicating that strategy with them so that you can work out a plan forward so this can be wound up in the most efficient way possible. We need lawyers and accountants in our armory. They know how to do things legitimately, professionally and properly for us that we actually can't do ourselves. But then it's, it's a whole lot of communication. As Russ already said, it's the stakeholders, but not just shareholders. This is every stakeholder in the building company. This is where we need a plan of communicating it. We need to get on the same page. If we've got another director, we need both of us to agree to shut down a building company. If that's happening, we communicate with the shareholders. We need to be able to communicate very clearly with employees, with clients, with past clients, with future clients, with, I've said employees, but salespeople. Why are we not selling anymore? We need a plan and we've got to be able to communicate it and set expectations of what, what these phases and stages are going to look like in this wind down plan. And then we need to execute it so that this is phase one, is phase two, this is phase three, so that everyone does feel taken care of. Your reputation doesn't go down the toilet. You're not winding down a company in such a way that your name gets dragged through the mud afterward. It was like, you know what? The way Andy handled that was exceptional. He got us all new jobs, he referred us to other builders. We had all these contracts lined up. We were ready to start our new role. We finished on a Friday, we started on a Monday. And then is so much respect for you when you do it that way. So I think, yeah, we've got to be able to have a plan and then execute it and you know, takes work. But we've already mentioned that.

And, and I think just to amplify the communication piece of this that sky raised, it's worth it to get some professional help around the PR side and, and framing the narrative honestly. Because if you don't get ahead of that wave and put the truth out there, the danger you face is that people will start to see or hear bits of the puzzle and then they'll complete the puzzle themselves. And it's not going to be anything like reality. You know, again, if we're talking about things like your responsibility to complete A build. You want to make sure that, you know, the market doesn't think that you're in trouble and none of your subcontractors turn up because they think they're not going to get paid, you know, or people on your team that are important in seeing through the process start looking for other jobs and jumping ship because the narrative hasn't been properly controlled. So everything sky said, plus I think that PR piece is very important at the outset just to make sure it's. It's controlled as well.

Yeah, it's a good point, Andy. I think confidence is absolutely critical, which is obviously going to come out through your communication. So it's something we have to keep top of mind. There has to be confidence in us and our company as we go through this process.

Andy, I imagine winding down your company that you've invested so much time and energy into could have a lot of emotional and psychological effects on the owner. How do you deal with that?

Well, again, I think what we've said from the word go is that if this is a decision that you've made for the right reasons, you'll be at peace. You know, now, I did, I did say there were some negative things that could happen over which we have no control. And of course, the reality is with some of those, they are going to be the cause of the emotional damage or upheaval. So if there is a death in the family or, you know, if a marriage ends, you know, those kind of things, they have their own emotional and psychological effect just on their own. Now we've got an additional piece to deal with with, which again, brings it back to. I mean, all of the stuff that we've. We've been exposed to around mental health is making sure that it's planned and organized and you're in control. And if you can do that, then it is manageable.

I think it's important as well. We talk about having a coach in your corner, which is, you know, extraordinarily important during this process to have that person you can, you know, look to for support and guidance. But I think what's really important is that coach must be a specialist in the residential construction industry and understand this industry, because just like running a residential building company is very different to most other companies that a lot of these generic coaches might be working with business owners on. It's the same when it comes to winding down the business as well. There's a lot of things in this industry that wouldn't affect. Affect your typical company. So you must have someone in your corner that understands that and can give you that, that support, you know, because they can't give you the emotional and psychological support unless they understand what it is you're really up against and what, what's coming and help prepare you for that.

And I think we, we always say it around this subject. You need professionals again in your corner. I think Most. Russ is 100% right about, you know, whoever you're talking to needs to be industry specific. But in most cases, they probably aren't going to be the people that could help you navigate that mental, you know, or emotional journey. So having those people in your corner, whether that is a, you know, a therapist or a psychologist, to, to accept this is going to be difficult. I need help. And not. Not kind of sit there and say, hey, she'll be right. You know, cowboys don't cry. No, this is hard. This is. I mean, that where we've seen this happen, it, it actually ends up as sky said. We want lawyers, we want accountants, really, we want a team of professionals involved so that the best outcome is achieved by that combined input.

And by the time you have the outcome you're looking for, as long as it is a professional wind down, everyone is happy. It's been done very respectfully, very professionally. You get to choo your own words behind what happened to the building company. I think it's when you aren't conscious. And I look, I realize this is a lot easier said than done, but we can put a lot of words behind what has happened and it's not uncommon, which is why it can be quite emotional and it really can impact psychologically when we see, even proactively winding down our own building company, we can use the word. Or the word failure can come into our headspace, our vocabulary, not infrequently, but. And I realize this is easier said than done and this is why, like, sharing and talking to other people is going to be important. It's all to do with the weight. Like, how much weight do you put behind that word? Yeah, because, you know, and we can all talk about it on a very level head right now. Some of the most successful business people out there have had spectacular failures and you're most successful. Just commend them on it. And it's a badge of honor to fail so spectacularly. Winding down a building company because you're changing direction, you've looked ahead and you've not been wound up and you've made this decision that's really on you to change the narrative behind why you did it. But even if that word does creep in. Think about the weight behind that word. How much weight are you putting on that word? Word? I think it's really important because, yeah, maybe you then own it. Yeah, look, I did fail. I didn't achieve my goal in this amount of time. So I wound it up. It doesn't mean I'm a failure. This venture didn't work out. You know what I mean? And then we can separate it because a lot of the time, and I know we talked about this in our elite mentoring episode that you did, Andy. A lot of building company owners, because of how much time, effort and slog they've put into their building companies, see themselves as their building company. Like that is their value. And when we take builders onto, you know, through business coaching and into elite mentoring, it's actually having the conversation of separating your value from your company. Because we talk about exit strategies, we talk about, are you selling? Do you want to pass it down a generation? Do you like whatever you want to do? What is your exit strategy? We need to establish your value first so that when you get close to that point, not even when you do it, when you get close to that point, you don't feel some kind of way. And what does happen is you self sabotage yourself from actually selling it because suddenly you're not your building company anymore. It's going to be in someone else's hands and you can't take it. So there's a lot of deeper emotional parts that you actually have to go down first to even understand how you're going to feel when it happens.

And that is such a wonderful reframe. Because actually, if you think about it, every single builder that we work with at some point is going to wind down their business for a reason. It could well be a positive reason. And naturally, when we the what you just said, this guy made me realize. When we talk to our elite clients about their exit strategy and what the ultimate goal is of the business, to a large extent, that's the best example we can give you of winding down. Down. They are going to wind down. They aren't necessarily going to have the business wind down, but they are going to exit the business in a way that suits them. And I think really what we're saying is in the, in the discussion we're having today, the reason might be different, but the process is going to be exactly the same. At the end of the day, whether you selling the business in a positive light or you are closing it down to go and do something different, you're going to go through exactly the same process to get to that point. So it, I mean, it's really sky. Thank you. I feel so much better now because I was really feeling down and gray and. But you know what, actually we're all going to do this at some point for some reason. So let's start thinking about it now. Yay.

Well, Andy, I think the irony of this conversation is that what I'm hearing is the process of winding down the company properly and leaving everyone in a good place. If you have the skills to do that, you have the skills to create an exit strategy or turn the business around and make it. Yes.

Look, I mean there could be circumstances and we've seen this in very limited cases where somebody's building business is so tightly niched that that market evaporates for some reason. You know, they were building, they were building multi story apartments out of licorice, all sorts. And the government banned sugar. Okay, well, you know, I mean, what can you do? That's just, that's, that's, that's, that's a completely unpredictable scenario. But in virtually every situation where we've had these conversations, I cannot think of one where the person didn't eventually leave in a very positive scenario. And probably 99% of them by the time it got close to walking away said I don't want to walk away anymore because I fixed all the things that were making me unhappy, happy. So it's absolutely, it's often the road starts off looking dark and then as these things get put in place, it starts, the opportunities start to reveal themselves again and that brings with it that positive energy and that new focus. And what do we do? We just course correct the plan. It was going here, we had to do the same work. We're just going to move it now to go there and all of a sudden it's a positive outcome. So yeah, it generally turns out the corner at some point if it is done properly.

Sounds like we're all a bit happier now, Andy, so maybe this is a good time to wrap things up. But Ross, what would you recommend for the builders out there to take the next steps if they want to learn more about this?

Well, we do have a very comprehensive action plan that covers creating an exit strategy. So if you are in the middle of an exit or maybe even if it's just some something you're contemplating, then make sure you head towards the action plan in the APB members portal and that will take you through the whole process. And probably most importantly as well, included in that action plan is a downloadable checklist for creating a building company that can be sold rather than wound down. So if you are experiencing cash flow challenges in your building company right now, and maybe you might be having second thoughts and wondering if you're going to be around for the long term, then make sure you download that checklist first, because in less than five minutes you're going to have a clear idea exactly where the problem is in your building company and that might illuminate a different path for you to take in the months ahead.

And of course, this is my cue for everybody that's listening that isn't a member of the APB B join. Simple.

Very simple.

I mean it's the reality is, unfortunately, because the complexity of that, it isn't one of the tools that we can make available, you know, kind of openly. It it is for our members only. So in amongst the the tongue in cheek, this subject is serious enough that if you are contemplating it, what you invest in an APB membership is it's going to come back to you a hundred times over in terms of what you'll get out of the process. So seriously, no jokes. It's well worth it.

Very good. Thanks. Andy Ross Andy sky thank you so much for coming on Professional Builders Secrets. Today. I've learned a whole bunch about winding down or not winding down a building company, but I'm sure all the listeners and viewers out there have had a really enjoyable time, even though it was a little dark for a while. Also, a big thank you to our listeners wherever you are in the world. If you liked Professional Builder Secrets today, please subscribe on your platform of choice and if you're feeling generous, leave us a review. But until next time, have a great day. This episode of Professional Builder Secrets is brought to you by Apparatus Contractor Services. Apparatus provides full scope end to end QuickBooks, Precision Construction accounting and CFO services for residential builders. If you feel like you can't completely trust your weekly and monthly financial reports, or you feel like you're flying blind, Apparatus Root will rebuild and operate your QuickBooks accounting system and give you precision construction accounting capability you can trust. Learn more@apparatusteam.com or on the APB Rewards Partner Directory.