124. Offshoring Staff to Scale With Karen Walshe

A virtual assistant isn't just an admin assistant. It can be a highly technical designer. It could be a web designer, it could be a, you know, an accountant. It could be so many different functions.

Welcome to Professional Builders Secrets, the podcast for building company owners wanting to grow safely and securely. I'm your host, Will Blunt, and today I'm joined by Karen Walsh from Go Recruit. Karen, welcome to the show.

Thanks, Will. It's great to be on. So looking forward to discussing what we do and how we help the builders.

Yeah, I'm really excited for this chat today because you've been doing some amazing work with a number of builders out there, helping them offshore some of their teams and really opening up their minds about what's possible. So excited to hear about everything that you're doing.

Yeah, look, I mean, offshoring really does. You need to get into that mindset because not, not many people are familiar with the offshore space other than from what we've experienced with, you know, the, the constant bombarding of telemarketing and call centers. And I think that's actually what's given offshoring a bad name. But I'm here today to actually tell you about the great stories and how it can actually help your business.

Awesome. Awesome. So let's take a step back for a moment. Can you tell me a bit more about your background and how Gorecruit and your offshoring story services came about?

Yeah, absolutely. So, from me, I grew up in a family of builders, so my dad ran a construction company, my brother was a plumber. All my cousins are actually in the trades. And that's just something that I've, you know, just lived and breathed. It's in my DNA, essentially. And my business partner had a. A company that actually marketed building material supplies to companies and get them specified on large construction jobs and also smaller jobs as well. So he ran that for 25 years and then started engaging some offshore team members. And initially it was like, how, how does this work? How are we going to actually have somebody from a different country working our business, which is located here, and started with some appointment setters and then it grew from there. And when he sold the business a few years ago, he had 18 team members and, you know, helped out people with offshore staffing and then thought, this is really something that a lot of businesses can benefit by. Reduce costs, you know, help help out with tasks, low value tasks, even high value tasks, and be able to scale your business and save at the same time. So it was actually something that he was really passionate about and we're both really passionate about giving, you know, the country men of the Philippines or South Africa or wherever, we're actually sourcing now some staff from a better lifestyle. So when we engage them, they actually improve not only the lifestyle of themselves and their family by earning better wages, they actually improve their entire community. So that's something that we're really passionate about as well as helping out, you know, local businesses, whether it be here in Australia or over in the US and Canada.

Yeah, I love that. I mean, you often don't hear people think about the other side of the equation and how much it can really help people in less fortunate, you know, living situations.

Yeah, look, it is, it's really life changing and we have so many team members with us that have been with us for long term and their businesses absolutely love them. So they become part of your family and we'll talk a little bit more about culture as we go through the podcast. But yeah, excited to actually share some really key ingredients on how to create a successful offshore team.

Awesome. You touched on a few benefits of offshoring in general. How does it apply to the residential construction space and the builders you've worked with?

So a lot of the builders that we work with are really finding it hard to find good talent at the moment. You know, it really is a job seekers market and the prices of wages are just going through the roof making staff not affordable for these companies. And we often work with a lot of businesses that, you know, are looking to just fulfill what's on their books. They can't even think about scaling at this point in time because they're so busy just trying to actually keep up with the demand that they've currently got. So what we find is by using our offshore team members, it actually frees up their wages budget by offshoring some of the admin side of the business. It improves their efficiency and also allows them to invest back into local staff on the ground so they can actually deliver on their projects whilst having the support in the office. So for example, you know, looking at some of the construction companies that we work with, they have admin assistants that do the general day to day admin, some bookkeepers that actually help with the tracking of the payments and materials. And then we also have builders who use architects and designers which have actually been really quite, quite a success and estimators. So it's helped them to actually reduce their costs, provide a better service to the client and also deliver their projects on time, within budget and also return a profit for them. Because really, at the end of the day, we're in business so we can actually create a better life for ourselves and also for our families and the people that we care about.

I want to come back to that because you mentioned architects and estimators, and I bet there's a lot of builders out there going, no, no way you could offshore that. So let's come back to that a little bit later in the podcast, but right now I want to understand a bit more about why more builders aren't offshoring. Like, what's holding them back? What fears do they have?

Look, I think a lot of businesses in general don't offshore because they don't actually understand how easy it is. There are very common misconceptions that if I offshore a task within my business, that the person that's going to be doing it won't be able to understand me. Can they speak English properly? Can they communicate effectively if they're not in the office, how do I know that they're actually doing their job and they're doing what I say, what I request? Also, do they have the relevant qualifications and work experience to be able to comply with the local regulations and building standards? And the answer to that is yes. We have got such incredible team members that have got a wealth of knowledge and have worked on iconic sites around the world. So when we actually work with a client or, you know, in general, when you're looking for an offshoring partner, you need to actually understand the way that they work and how they actually screen and test and provide you with a range of candidates that are going to be a right fit for your business.

And why do you see builders, you know, build a building companies fail at offshoring, like, what mistakes they're making, which prevents them from getting the outcomes you're talking about and make them probably give up if they've given it a go before.

So some of the common things that I see is, firstly, when you're looking at offshoring for the first time, you're not exactly sure what it is that you want. And if you don't have a proper job description or have a clear understanding of the task that you need to offshore, then it makes it very difficult to provide ongoing instruction and daily tasks for the candidate. So, you know, it could be just a matter of simply defining a job description. And that's, you know, something that we'll go through a little bit later. Can also be. Sometimes when you engage somebody in your business, you forget that people aren't superhuman. When you're actually employing somebody in your business locally, you understand the limitations because you're working with them every day and you go through the interviews, there's a certain skill set that you're looking for. Whereas when you're offshoring administrative tasks, some people want to offshore the accounting function and the admin function and the marketing function and the website function. And then it's just, it's just not possible with most people. They don't have that broad skill set. So that's where I could see a lot of people falling down there. And also the lack of communication. So when you're on site, you're seeing your team members every day, or if you're in the office, you're seeing people every day. When you've got an offshore team member, how do you actually maintain that contact and that regular communication without it being too time consuming? Because let's face it, we're all time poor these days and we're all trying to get as much in to our day as humanly possible. And you know, that's why we end up using virtual assistants. And a virtual assistant isn't just an admin assistant, it can be a highly technical designer, it could be a web designer, it could be a, you know, an accountant, it could be so many different functions that we can actually look at. So they're there to actually do the grunt work whilst you step back and drive your business. So your, your day should be freed up. Most of your day should be 80% networking, driving your business, meeting with clients or doing the things that you love. And then the rest of the time your team should be supporting your business. So, you know, your business is working for you. And that's ultimately where we want to aim, is that we're not a slave to the business, the business is actually working for us.

Yeah, it's a great point you make around. I mean, you keep talking about the team and I think there's probably a mindset out there of almost like separating local team, offshore team in a way. I know that in the past I had my own business prior to working at APB and went through the process of offshoring a number of roles in my business. Initially it was, I had this mindset of, you know, once they're hired, it's kind of like they'll just do their job and get on with it kind of thing. And that just never worked out until I actually brought them into the processes of the team and had daily communication and all that kind of stuff and provided just as much support and training. As the other team members, that was the only time you could get the outcomes that you were looking for. So I like what you're talking about there in terms of actually including them in the team and actually treating them.

In the same way 100%, because we're all creatures of habit, and we all need that social interaction as well. And to be part of a team is a great way to develop that culture, that trust, and to get the best out of your candidate as well. And there's so many things that we can actually do to help support that, even though they're actually located in a completely different office in a completely different part of the world. So. And time zones with the candidates that we're using are really flexible. The candidates want to be a part of your business. They. They want to contribute, they want to help wherever they can. And by having more than one person to talk to within the business can also be helpful. And what we find is a lot of our businesses will, once they started with the offshoring, they've had success with their first team member, they grow, and then you find they create this whole new little community within their Filipino community, or whether it be South African or wherever they're located, their little community of team, and then they all communicate with each other. And so what I also recommend for businesses to reduce their time and effort spent on onboarding is once they've onboarded a team member, get the team member to document everything. There's some amazing AI platforms these days that do standard operating procedures manuals. So a lot of people say, I'm too poor, time poor. I can't put on a new person. I'm too time poor. I don't have time to train them. So this is where systemizing your business really comes in handy. And not only does it come in handy for your team members, but when you actually decide to scale or bring new people on or decide to sell, you've actually systemized your business, and that's all done through your offshore staff member. So your role is to, you know, instruct, guide, provide tasks and review and provide feedback. And then the candidate's role is to do all that grunt work for you. So you spend your time doing it is doing the things that you love.

And the alternative is that you just continue working harder, harder and harder and.

Harder until you burn out. And, you know, there's no. The point of having a business is so you actually have the money to then enjoy the leisure lifestyle wherever you can. And I see a lot of builders, you know, working around the Clock pulling their hair out, you know, working on site during the day, they're doing their books at nighttime, there's admin, they've got kids to look after, you know, social engagements and especially around Christmas time as well. I don't think anybody sleeps. This allows you to be able to step back, take a breath, look after yourself and really drive your business and make the good business decisions as opposed to making decisions about your business in it from a place of stress and time being time poor.

What are some of those tips you were talking about to make an offshoring relationship more successful? Like the day to day things builders can be doing with their offshore team to make it a better experience and get the outcomes they want.

So what we typically see in a building business is that there's a toolbox meeting on site. Now having your offshore staff member and having the regular meeting or toolbox, it could even just be a 10, 15 minute check in every day just to make sure that they're on task. It gives them the ability to be able to talk to you if they've got any outstanding tasks that they haven't been able to complete or if they've got some ideas that they want to contribute to the business. Because having somebody from an offshore team gives you a new lens on your business as well. Now, in saying that you're not always going to get somebody who's outspoken, they're going to be very compliant and helpful in your business. But there are going to be times where there might be something that's not quite right and a suggestion that you haven't been able to see because you're too close to the business will come in very handy and can actually change the way you do business for the better. So that regular daily check in builds up the relationship. It gives you feedback on where they're at with their integration within your business. It also shows you gaps of if they need additional training within your business or on systems, and also highlights any skill sets that you're not using. So you know, these candidates that we've got have such a broad skill set and exposure to all these digital platforms that there may be something that's actually going to help to systemize and add value to your business. So those daily check ins I find are really essential. If you can't do a daily check in, at least a bi weekly one, it's very helpful. And then integrating them into part of your team meetings wherever possible, they then start to feel like they're part of the team and part of the family. And you can find that if they're having a bit of downtime, they might be able to help somebody else within your team. So I find that that's actually really helpful. That's one thing. The other thing is there's so many things that we can do. We have companies that actually will fly their team member out to Australia for a conference or an event or something like that. That is really quite inexpensive to bring them out here and it is life changing. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity for them to travel if they, if they can. It's not essential but that makes them feel like a part of the team. Doing virtual online games. There's a range of games. We actually have a client who has come back to us recently saying we do this weekly challenge and we're surprised. Our Filipino candidate is always winning these challenges and their first language is not English, so those kinds of things. And food, sending food to your team members, it's very inexpensive and they absolutely love it. We send all our team members, we regularly have a pizza day and we send them and their families food. So these, they're just little things that you can do to keep them really engaged and make them feel like they're part of your team.

That's great. So what's some of the tools that you recommend using for daily communication and things like that?

You know, everybody's going to have a different hubs tech stack. What we use is Microsoft Teams. We use, you know, your WhatsApp Trello. So those are some of the ones that we use in our business. But there's other ones out there like asana Monday.com teams. There is so many, you know, where do you start?

Yeah, exactly as you said, everyone's going to have their own tech stack. But I guess, yeah, anything like that is going to help and aid with communication and getting visibility across everything that's getting done as well. Right?

Yeah, that's right. That's right. And the what I would actually do and people often ask us what we use and it depends on what role that we're actually placing to what tech stack that we'll use. So I mean We've got a CRM system we use HubSpot, we use LinkedIn is one of our biggest drivers for new business. So in that we use Drupify but each candidate is going to come with a different skill set and they're quite across. I think the Filipino digital nomads are really quite across a lot of different tech. And with digital transformation we've seen over the last few years, we actually see a whole new range of AI coming out as well. So you've got things like ChatGPT, which can be quite helpful used correctly and it can be very time saving for candidates to use and also businesses to use. We've also got a new platform that does standard operating procedures manuals. But what I would say to clients is use what you are currently using in this in, in your business. If you don't have something in your business, then look at ways to actually systemize your business and find ways to save time using technology. But it has to be something that you're going to use regularly. There's no point in implementing a new system if it doesn't get used regularly.

So let's talk about company culture now. How can builders go about integrating an offshore team into their culture and maintaining strong communication and culture? I think you touched on a few of the things there in terms of, you know, flying them over to your location or, you know, sending them food and gifts and things like that. But any other tips you can think of?

Look, I think it's the general day to day communication with your candidate and depending on where your candidate's located, I think you need to be mindful of the way that you actually communicate with team members because Filipinos in general can be quite sensitive. So, you know, please and thank yous do go a long way and its tone can also create some friction. Whereas if you engage with somebody from a different region, you might find that being quite direct is really, it's easy and the candidate doesn't become offended. So I think being mindful of local culture and you have a tendency with the Filipinos to please, yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, ma'. Am. And sometimes you don't get a task delivered that you're expecting to be delivered and it's simply because they might be researching it. So having that clear communication, understanding, feedback loop and a process that they know that if they don't know how to do anything, it's okay, just put your hand up. It's going to take me five minutes to show you how to do it. And this is why we actually have a HR team as well. So what we find is sometimes there's a miscommunication between the client and the candidate and we're here to help and support both the client and the candidate to make sure that this is a huge success. So when you're actually looking for an offshore partner, if you've got somebody that can actually help you in that transition period, it actually really sets the tone for the Rest of the relationship and the success of the candidate being placed.

Yeah. Interesting. So with Gokrut and I don't want to get too much into the detail of how you work, but do you basically look after the whole offshore team for all your clients or are you just doing that as like a transitionary period?

Well, we do have different services and next year we will be offering a full managed service. But as for now, so 2024 we'll be launching our full managed service. As for now, what we do is we use a dedicated resource for the client. So we do a simple three step process. When we go work with somebody, we collaborate with you to actually identify what it is that you need in your business and those tasks and whether or not that is actually a viable job role for one person to do. And then we actually advertise for the role. Passive resource, actively source. And then we present the client with a couple of candidates to choose from. If they're happy to go ahead, then we place them and then we continually support them. So like I said, we check in with the client, we check in with the candidate, we make sure that it's actually a good fit and that things are running smoothly. If they're not, we fix it.

Cool. Pretty simple. Yeah.

And look, it's really scary. I mean, if you haven't done offshoring before, you're actually, there's so many concerns because you're fearful of the unknown. But once you get started, you just don't, you won't look back. I remember when I first engaged a virtual assistant, I mean, I wasn't sure how it was going to work. I was a little bit scared. How do I know they're working? I'm spending all this money, am I going to get value for money? Are they going to actually be able to help me in my business? And then once I got the formula right, like you, like you have with your business, once you get the formula right, you know what you're doing, you've got this great relationship. It takes time to onboard any candidate, whether they're locally here, in your local state, in your business or internationally. Once you onboard that team member, they become such a valuable resource and your time is freed up to do the things that you really love. So yeah, that's when I start to get excited. I start to get excited when I start hearing clients come back to me saying, I can't. Why didn't I do this sooner?

But as you said, I mean, there can be a lot of wasted time and energy if you don't try to do it the right way if you're.

Not entirely sure on what tasks that can be offshore, because there's some tasks that just simply cannot be. And this is where we help and guide the client into what is possible, what's not possible, and then look for the right candidate, the right fit, the right cultural fit. I mean, you know, sometimes we've got some really great, zany, outgoing Filipinos that are really going to give you a piece of their mind. And then there's other times where we're going to have a very compliant, very timid person. So depending on the personality, the, the culture of the company and also the role that the candidates needing to fill, we will actually go to market and find the right fit.

So let's go back to the start of the conversation. I want to hear more about these architects and estimators and those technical roles that you've been able to hire for Australian businesses. But I guess businesses, builders in North America would be able to benefit from the same thing. How have you gone about finding offshore staff that can meet those criteria?

Okay, so if a client comes to us wanting an architect and they're located in Australia, for example, the architect then needs to be familiar with the Australian standards and all the codes and regulations. And also they then vary from state to state as well. So depending on where the client's located, we will actually get all of the specifications required for that particular role. And then we will go to market and we will find, we'll find somebody with those credentials and the background and the experience. So that, and then once we've got that, then we'll present it, present the candidates to the client. If we can't find the exact match, then we'll come back to the client and let them know this is what we found. Would you like to move forward with an interview? But in general, there are a lot of candidates that do have a lot of knowledge and experience in the Americas and Australia with architecture and also the, the United Emirates.

And what type of cost saving are people seeing from, or building company owners seeing from hiring an offshore architect compared to working with an outsourced architect in Australia or, or the United States or New Zealand or something that, or even hiring some, someone full time.

Look, it is a significant saving and it depends on your business model and who you use. I mean, you might actually use, use a combination between an offshore designer architect and a local one as well. So we're typically saving up to 70% to the cost of wages and we can get some really highly experienced candidates from around $35 an hour and lower. 35 is the max you're going to be paying. But again, you need to look at what's right for your business. You need to look at the skill sets, you need to look at the exact experience, you need to look at the work history to see, to make sure that they're going to be a good fit for your business. So we've had some huge success stories with architects, you know, placed in businesses here in Australia and also in the US and it's actually completely transformed these businesses. It saved them hugely on costs, improved profitability. It's actually provided better customer service because you can turn around, you know, any changes to plans pretty much immediately and it allows you to attract a different type of customer when you do those custom design projects.

How are you finding these candidates in the Philippines or wherever it is? Are you using job boards in like the traditional processes like that, or do you have a network of that you can tap into that kind of things. And how do you, I guess, go about vetting their experience?

Okay, that's a good question. So for, for us, we've been operating for quite some time now, so we do have an internal database of over 50,000 applicants and we actually provide staff not only to the construction industry but in general to all industries. So we place for over 110 roles. But when we have our construction lens on, what we are actually looking at is firstly, we will exhaust our database with all the candidates that have applied for roles and who want to work with us. And we will also advertise on the job boards, the typical job boards that you will see, you know, in Australia. So things like, you know, jobs, job street, which is seeker, you know, indeed platform. So we'll do all those online postings. We then also have a network of social media that we actually reach out. We'll passively source. We can. We also headhunt. So we do a whole marketing campaign, whether it's active or passive, to find the right candidate. So for example, if we advertise for an architect today, we would probably over the weekend expect to receive about 600 applicants.

Wow.

Yeah. And it's huge because we've got a bigger pool of talent to draw on as opposed to the, you know, just the local market. So we would then over the period of next week would then screen the candidates for their experience and then we'd shortlist them, would then interview them. And then, you know, some clients want to test the candidate before they interview them or they might interview them and decide to test and that's fine. So what we'll do is say, okay, what's the project? We like to limit the project to, you know, no more than four hours. And then the candidate will go away, do the test and then provide the results to the client and then they go from there to see, you know, what design they like the best. So they might have a brief or they might need to change a design or a drawing or something and then come back and show the client their skill set. So I think that, you know, but we work really closely with the client just to really identify what it is that they're looking for, you know, what type of personality, what kind of experience, how long do you want them to have worked in that, in that field for? Are there any special requirements, any technical tools that they need to know about or how to use? So you know, are they using SketchUp, are they using CAD, are they using, you know, BuilderTrend? You know, we're looking at all of these different hubs, tech stacks and what they need to know in order to be able to hit the ground running from day one when they land in your business.

Well, for any builders out there that had the back of their mind like I did, that they could maybe just go and do this themselves and post on a job board in the Philippines. I'm not sure going through 600 candidates sounds very enjoyable.

Oh look, I mean obviously you can do it, but you know, why waste your time doing that when you've got.

Us, you know, especially when you've got the process. Yeah. Already in place. You know exactly how to list job descriptions that will get engagement with the right people, all that kind of stuff.

Yeah, that's right. And you're also going to get your staff guarantee as well. So with us we do the regular check ins as well. So we're a bit of a backup for you. So we do the regular check ins, we do the payroll, we do the hr, we actually then, you know, if something's not working for some reason, we replace them. So, and can you imagine going and placing the job on a job board and you might be very successful, you might find the right person, but if you don't find the right person and you've onboarded them into your business, you've just wasted three months or however long it is trying to train this person up and then you go and do it again and you mis hire again. And so what our job is to make sure that you don't miss hire. You get it right the first time and you're very successful and in doing that, grow your team with us.

So yeah, what about legal and compliance aspects? I imagine there's some different things to be aware of. You know, hiring people offshore and working with different, you know, countries and things like that.

Yeah, absolutely. So when you're actually looking at contracting team members, you can contract a team member for a period of nine months without getting yourself into hot water because there's a lot of, you know, compliance and labor law regulations overseas. So for example over in the Philippines where when we engage our candidates, we comply with all the international anti slavery laws and we also comply with any local labor laws and regulations. So one thing that we don't have here in Australia is, you know, we're not required to actually pay health care for our workers here in Australia. But over in the Philippines you are. We're also required to do a 13 month paycheck for Filipinos. We also have other taxation and, and compliance regulations that we have to comply with in order to make sure that the candidate is actually looked after properly as well. And so with us we make sure that the candidates are paid a fair wage as well. So generally when they work with us, they get paid a bit more than what they would been working for a local organization and it actually changes their lives working for an international company, not only for themselves but also for their local community because they live in third world conditions generally. And I know that a lot of people think hiring someone from a third world location is actually going to have problems with, you know, performing and connecting and you know, you know, from time to time we do have problems with Internet and power outage, but it's very rare. You know, I think their Internet speed over in the Philippines is better than what we have here in Australia. It's like a, you know, the 500 billion dollar, you know, industry over in the Philippines. Offshore staffing.

Yeah.

So it is actually one of the biggest exports that the Filipinos have. So, you know, it is, you know, the education over there is outstanding for, you know, further education for Filipinos. The, the connectivity is outstanding and you know, you're not going to find a better worker, you know, more dedicated, happy, you know, committed, wanting to please. Yeah.

What's next in the offshoring landscape for residential construction? What do builders need to do to prepare themselves?

Oh look, I think we're going to see explosion in this market in terms of more admin support staff. So when we say admin, that's also technical roles. If you, if, if you're not using offshore team members you're going to fall behind. It is just makes such a significant cost saving to your business. It helps you scale your business, it helps you save on. On costs, improve your profitability and also systemize your business. And systemizing your business is, is really what's actually going to give you the ability to either, you know, franchise or sell at a later date or even leave it as a legacy to the, to, you know, family members or, you know, other people that you. That are interested in the industry. So, yeah, offshoring is definitely key to making all that happen.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it sounds fascinating. And so many benefits as well for building company owners out there. Any business owner really, in terms of. Yeah, systemizing and just getting yourself in a position to be able to scale more profitably.

Yeah, yeah, look, we're seeing it with the clients that are coming on board now and how rapidly their business changes just simply by having the right people in the key roles. But it's essential that you know what tasks can and cannot be outsourced.

Yep.

So that's why we're here to help and guide.

It's pretty powerful to think that you could have two, maybe three highly skilled individuals join your business for the price of one. Like, you know what I mean?

I know we often have clients come to us and say, I feel bad, you know, I. They're not getting paid enough. And so we say, okay, well, if you want to bonus them, that's fine. But in terms of. So what we've got to keep in mind, this is not slave labor. What we are paying candidates in their country a really good wage that changes their lives and the lives of their families and their community. So we benefit from the exchange rate of the dollar, essentially, is what it comes down to. And, you know, for us, we like to reward our team members for a job well done, like you would here in Australia. You know, we're often bonusing now our staff or giving them days off or incentivizing them in one way or another. And what we're seeing now, it's all about staff engagement and retention. If you can't keep your staff, you can't afford to replace them. And so, you know, I really take that approach not only with our local team, but we also take that approach with our offshore team as well. So, you know, you want good staff and you want them to stay because they add so much value to your business.

Well, Karen, it's been great having a chat about offshoring for building companies. And I think there's so many benefits There that if anyone wants to find out more about what Gorecruits doing. If you're an APB member, check out the Go Recruit Rewards page on our website, which we'll share the link for. And if not, then you can check out gorecruit IO.

That's it.

A beautiful new website. Really like the new website.

So thanks, Will. Still a little bit of work, more work to do on there, but we've got some really exciting initiatives coming up next year and, you know, really excited to be so talking to you today. So thank you so much for having us on.

Yeah, of course. And any other final thoughts you want to leave with the builders out there?

Well, I think don't be afraid to take the plunge into the offshoring world because we're here to help and support. And I just. What really gets me excited is when people come back to us and say, why hadn't we done this before? I mean, we've had clients come on board after two years of talking to us and say the exact same thing. I can't believe I waited two years. So if you're in two minds about it, jump off the fence and dive in, because I think it's going to be something that you definitely won't regret.

Yeah, of course. And at the end of the day, you can dip your toe in without, you know, spending a huge amount of money or anything like that. Right.

Absolutely right. Absolutely right. And we're here to make it a success.

Awesome. Well, thanks, Karen. Been great to chat about offshoring today and like, really appreciate you coming on the show.

Excellent. Thanks, Bill, for your time.

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