127. The Value Of Apprentices With Tom Coy

And making sure they understand. So asking them, hey, mate, I need you to do xyz. Does that make sense? Do you understand that? Yes. Sometimes they're a bit nervous and they just say yes and they don't understand. And I was like, why didn't you tell me you didn't understand? But that's all part of it.

Welcome to Professional Builder Secrets, the podcast for building company owners wanting to grow safely and securely are. I'm your host, Will Blunt, and today I'm joined by Tom Coy from Coyes Constructions in Melbourne, Australia. Tom, welcome to the show.

Hey, Will, thanks for having me.

Great to have you on again. You twisted my arm with an interesting topic and we've invited you back on the show, so welcome back.

Must have done a good job the first time. Did I?

Yeah, well, I think so. I think so. That was the feedback at least. So more than happy to have you back on. And we're going to chat about an interesting topic today. So we were, we were having a talk a couple of weeks back just before the Christmas period about apprentices and it sounds like you're doing some really interesting work with attracting and retaining apprentices. And it's a challenge that many builders out there have been facing, especially recently with staffing and everything like that. So what made you open up this conversation about apprentices with us?

I had a few people close to me that had reached out for advice regarding apprentices, knowing that I've had many over the OR currently and over the years and they said, oh, you should, you should talk about this, you should, you should help other people. Because a lot of people think or there's a rumor or a myth out there that the apprentices are useless or they're not good value for money or they just waste your time. And, you know, people don't traditionally always really busy in the build industry and don't have the time to train apprentices. So then they think, well, how can I invest the time in training them if. If I can't even get the job done myself? So it's a rumor? Myth.

It's a myth. I like the word myth. It's good. What qualities do you look for in an apprentice then?

I look for someone who's open upfront, not too shy. They come up to you and open to have a conversation, open to learning, working with the team, not too sheltered, I guess they're willing to learn. That's the main thing. Willing to learn, get their hands dirty and deal with the, you know, the lower level jobs and then they work their way up they gotta understand they gotta start at the bottom and work their way up.

So it sounds like you're looking for more than just, you know, technical skills which they probably don't have when they're first starting out. Right?

Ah, for sure. It's all about people's skills and working with the team at the start and then they're willing to learn if they've got that they'll make it, you know, if they, some will come with an attitude of I'm a carpenter, I don't need to be picking up rubbish or I don't want to fill up skips or you know, I came here to be a carpenter but I do sometimes I'll test them and give them some shitty jobs at the start to test their character and then once they've not so much tested them, they've passed that character test and then they're good and they can work their way up and then I know it's worth investing the time into them.

There's a well known story and even though you're from Melbourne, you've probably never heard of the Melbourne Storm who are rugby league team that down in Melbourne. But there's a well known installment story that every new player, that Craig Bellamy, their coach gets into their, their squad has to go work on a construction site for a week or something like that and then he gets feedback from them on, on their kind of work ethic and all those kind of things before they let him into the squad.

Yeah, well that's it. Well that's, that's exactly right. The work ethic, that's the word I was looking for. Good work ethic. I, I, I've heard that I'm not the easiest person, I'm hard on them. However, they'll come out as skilled tradesmen and that's what they come and start an apprenticeship to do.

Yeah, that's what I was going to ask. So it's all well and good to say. Yeah, they've got to start at the bottom, put the work in, all that kind of stuff. But how do you frame up the future for them so they feel as if by doing this I'm going to go somewhere interesting.

We aim to do quarterly performance reviews with them and with the chain of command so site supervisor, project manager and myself and, and then we set goals of where they want to go. You know some like when I remember when I was an apprentice I thought when I could build a set of stairs or when I could pitch a roof, then I've made it or Hang a door, you know, so they'll set these little tasks. Some might be, I really want to just build my. A dog kennel. I don't know. And then I guess they. You build it off the back of that. They've got to come to the table with something that they want and how they're going to achieve it. You look forward in different aspects what they. What they're spending their money on. Like now they earn pretty good money apprenticeship compared to back in my day.

You know, Back in my day.

Yeah. If they. If they're invested in their tools, you know, to be a. For our business, obviously being a builder, carpenter background, you've got to have a lot of tools, you know, so that sort of shines through as well. If they're their first paycheck, they're just going down to the pub or whatever, then you go, you should be saving that money and buying yourself a drop saw.

Do you think they're inevitably on a path to kind of work for themselves? Eventually?

Definitely, yeah. All of them. Everyone wants to be like that and that's why I guess we'll get to it in terms of retaining apprentices. But some are. I'd say it's not looked down on people that do stay with me. Not at all. It's people that. Some are more ambitious and they just want to have a crack by themselves. Some go, I don't want those headaches of running a business. I just want to work with someone and just focus on being a carpenter. There's no right or wrong there. I would say most have the. They go, I want to be like you, I want to run. Run my own business. I'm like, are you sure? So.

No, But I think that's where I can't. Maybe the camera's not good enough. I'm starting to get some come through myself. So the light's probably shining on those. But I guess that's probably part of the attraction for a successful construction business owner like yourself, Tom. So if someone can look at you and say, you know, that's what I want to build in my future, then naturally they're going to want to work for you compared to another building company.

Yeah, yeah, that's right. I say all that and I guess so many different variants ranges in apprentices, whether they'll do just one task. If you compare carpentry, some will just be a frame carpenter, some will be a fixed carpenter, some will just be a lockup carpenter. We do it all as builders start from the ground up. And I said, you won't be really good at one thing, you won't be a really good framer. However, you'll be able to build a whole house from start to finish. And that's why some days you'll just be picking up rubbish because that's what we've got to do as a builder. Other days you might do a bit of painting, you might do a whole range from the start to the finish. And that's what, what our guys love, that they can see the project from the start to the end. Whereas, yeah, some, some apprentices just get taught one thing and they've become really good at that and that might drive them to change and do something else because they see others, they go, I don't know how to hang a door.

It's interesting what you said at the start of the interview as well, about, oh, I don't have the time to train an apprentice, I don't have the time to be. To bring them in. But it's almost like a catch 22. If you make the time to set up those systems and then have a good business, that's also what attracts the best apprentices.

That's right. And, yeah, definitely, definitely. And say, it's always like any system, it's a work in progress. I have an Andy, my coach has been drumming into me for years, saying, you're always going to employ apprentices, you're going to teach them around about the same thing. They start here and go, A, B, C, D. Start recording yourself and doing videos and then putting that onto a library. I have set up systems and processes. Be lying if I said we use them every day, but they are there. But yeah, it's not. We're not reinventing the wheel here. We do the same thing. We build, we. We start building a house from the ground and you finish with the. At the top. You know, it's, it helps in an ideal world, it helps, I think, for, for the young blokes to know what they're doing in the weeks or the months ahead. So for two reasons, make sure you've got these tools. If we require them to have these tools, make sure they understand what task they're going to be doing and what's expected of them. So they don't, they don't get shocked on the day or in the moment. They go, I didn't know I was going to be doing this. So that I think is a big, A big help to them or. And making sure they understand. So asking them, hey, mate, I need you to do X, Y, Z. Does that make sense. Do you understand that? Yes. Sometimes they're a bit nervous and they just say yes and they don't understand. And I was like, why didn't you tell me you didn't understand? But that's all part of it. And saying. And I think with that is ensuring they understand the chain of command. So by all means, my door is always open. You can come to me anytime you want, Call me anytime. And if you're wanting to learn something, like, let's say, build a set of stairs, I'll stay back after hours with you and I'll show you, or I'll write you a checklist or however if you. But they've got to come to me with the initiative. I'm not going to push it on them, you know.

Yeah, I think that's. There's probably a subtle. There's a subtle importance there around creating an environment where they feel comfortable to ask you questions, Right?

Definitely. Definitely. Well, they always naturally look up to the senior carpenters and the supervisor and the project manager and they'll come to myself. But you've got to have the answers for them, which we do. And they got to feel comfortable. Yeah. To say, I said, oh, I've got a question. I said, no such thing as a silly question. Anything you got to learn. We all started somewhere.

You touched on your systems and processes, your training material. What does that look like when you first integrate a new apprentice into your company?

So I show them the library of where it is and how to find it. So there's things. I've broken it down into categories, like I touched on it before, frame lockup, fix and then so many different elements in there and step by step processes, like a flowchart system on how that works. So, for example, if you're setting out a frame, this is where you start. You start with your longest wall. Make sure that's parallel. You just check it for square. Follow these steps. So in an ideal world, I would be if I know a couple of the young guys are going out to site and the next week they're doing a frame, print that off. Or give them an iPad and say, that's the system. Follow these steps. And I want you to work with the lead carpenter and you're telling him what to do or showing him that you understand what's expected of you on that day. It involves something, right?

Yeah. Are they spending a bit of time learning those. Those processes before they get out on site, or what does that look like?

Not generally. Not. So you've got to find out how that I think it's really important to find out how that particular person works. They're all individuals and not robots, so some would be more written. So you write it down and explain it to them dot point it right out in front of them. Most apprentices are hands on. That's why they like to become a tradesman because they learn with their hands. So then only once when they're on site can you give them direction to. Because they've got to see it, you know, so finding out, I think it's really important to find out how that particular apprentice learns and also be when you discipline them, I guess to not do it too harshly. Some can take it, some can't and it really affects them. So to finding out those ways. Otherwise you don't want to be looked upon as this, the big bad wolf that's just going to yell at them all the time and then they don't feel comfortable to come to you and talk to you.

Before we talk about that, I want to ask about how you create that environment a little bit more but just in terms of the training that you're mentioning there. So what you're saying is like the hands on training is most effective but it's kind of like the written process is a fail safe just to kind of work with.

I just to double check things. So one of the frustrating things with I guess young blokes is and I can't really comment here, I've got a bad memory myself but remembering multiple tasks in a row. So you'll say, you know, sometimes my brain works really quick and I say you got to do this, this, this, this, this. Write it down. Do you understand that? Write it down. If you can't remember, some will just remember it, others will need to write it down on a block of timber or a notepad. Like when you're given a measurement, for example. So really understand how they're going to learn. Are they going to retain those things? Because that can be frustrating when you, you're teaching them and that's where people or the rumor will say I've tried apprentices and it's too hard, takes up too much of my time. They're just not finding, I think they're not finding out the way on how that particular person learns. They might be trying to teach them how they learn, but it may not be how that person learns. So got to ask them. Would you like me to write that down? Do you want me to record it? Carry a notepad in your top pocket? Yeah, I'll talk Slower. Something. You've got to find out what. What's triggering them, because they might just. They're too scared to say, I don't. I can't remember it. I always just say, it's okay. And I must blame myself. Say, don't worry about it. I forget everything.

So you kind of need to go through a discovery period of just understanding how they. They learn individually.

Definitely. Definitely, yeah. And that's trial and error, right?

Yeah, yeah. But I guess eventually you'll have, you know, only so many different learning types and then you'll know how to deal with each of them.

Right, exactly. Right, yeah. I guess it's like a. Think of it as a sports analogy, like a football team. You go, oh, he'll be a good forward, he'll be a good back, he's a good sentiment. And then you sort of can change. He learns really well like this. And then you pair them up with the team. So to create that culture as well is to make sure that we all come together at one point, knowing that we all might split to different jobs every day. However, every morning, everyone comes together out of their own time. They don't get paid, they come to the factory for the office and have a coffee, talk a bit of banter and they get dispatched out.

Do you at least supply the coffees or.

No, I supply the coffee. I'll shout them the coffee. That's probably the reason they come, but. Yeah.

So how do you create that environment where your apprentices feel heard and they actually want to openly communicate with you? Because I imagine there's probably a bit of a stigma around. Oh, I don't want to ask questions. I might look silly or whatever.

You got to identify the time, the right timing, because if they. If you're flat out and the phone's ringing or running hot, you can't. And they're asking questions or they're standing there looking at you, it's going to be frustrating. So you go, I've got a busy day today. If you've got any questions regarding this, I'm free at lunchtime, I'm free after hours. Or I'll talk to you tomorrow morning to explain this in more detail.

Yeah.

Then I don't follow them up again. It's got to come back with initiative from them. Say, hey, Tommy, you mentioned yesterday that you're going to help me explain how to pitch this roof. Whereas if they don't come to me, then I just go, they're not really that interested. What's the saying? You can take the horse to the water but you can't make it drink.

Yeah. So you're just, you're kind of getting some, some rules in place for when they come to you so they feel more open. They're like, okay, I know that at lunch or you know, between 9 and 10 on Thursday I can go to Tom and that's an opportunity to ask him these questions.

Yeah, definitely. And also part of it for me is look, it's not all about money. It's. Apprentices are expensive these days. Cheap compared to a qualified obviously. However, if they're not learning and they sucking up a lot of your time, they can be if you compare the metrics, they can be expensive if they're not picking it up in a reasonable timeframe. So some of that's gotta be in their own time. If they really want to learn this and they feel they're struggling or they really want to excel faster, come to me in your own time. I've given you my time on site, I've explained it to you three times. You're still struggling with it. You need to invest some of your own time into this. I'm happy to give you my time but you need to give me some of yours. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Do you have milestones in terms of like when you're knowing an apprentice is ramping up into to certain like levels of, of ability? I guess would.

Well yeah, they obviously, they, they obviously still go to school, they still do their, all our guys do on site training. So the teacher will come. Yeah to the site, take them away for a couple hours and then they'll get homework, et cetera. So they, you sort of know where they're at skill wise for that because they get tested that way. But 99% of what their skill and their ability is being learned on site subconsciously. We do but not so much by 26 February you need to be able to do this. It's not like that.

But what's a typical ramp up time for you to be confident in one of your apprentices to not need as much advice and education like on a.

Day to day basis you slowly start whining like tightening the screw you in terms of in, in a sense. So when they, when they fresh they get a lot of leniency and as the years progress you get to build more and more pressure and they want that, they want that. If they've got that fire in their belly, the desire to learn and be better, they want that pressure, they want the responsibility and that will generally be ad Hoc. I'd be like, right, you, you're going to go to this site, you're running these teams and you're taking these two younger guys. So as the young guys come through, the more mature guys will be training the younger guys and then they feel more superior. So then they naturally will learn because the pressure's on them and then any problem on site, they're the one to blame. Probably the wrong wording, not blame, but.

Yeah, maybe not blame, but yeah, you're giving them responsibility, so.

Responsibility for sure.

Yeah.

So even if the first year that, that 30 is taken to sight, regardless of the first year has made a mistake, it's the third year's fault, you know, or they're the one I'm going to talk to and say, why did that happen? You should have been watching him, you know that. And then they sort of. They learn, they learn in the firing line, I guess.

Well, it's just. Yeah, it's accountability, I guess, fault and, and all that. Might not be, might be how you phrase it, but that's right.

Yeah. And I remind them that four years is what they've got to learn this skill. They've got a lot of, a lot of skills to learn. A lot of different metrics, maths, everything that comes into it. You've only got a short period of time, so don't. When you come here in the morning and have a coffee, don't just sit there on your phone, think about what you're doing for the day. Ask me questions, make sure you've got the right tools, hardware, etc. Make a list. Do you need to pick up anything on your way? Don't just, oh, it's time to go to site. Then they start asking questions. So try. That's easier said than done. That's. They tend to switch their brain off.

Yeah, fair enough. Don't give them their coffee until they have told you what's happening for the day.

Yeah, maybe.

If they're anything like me, though, they probably need a coffee for that brain part of their brain to work.

Yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah.

What. Talk to me about retention. So what are some retention strategies you've used and what's a. What's good retention for an apprentice?

I. Oh, that's a. It's hard. It's. That's a hard question. It is hard because they. I train them to be such a highly skilled tradesman so they'll be very sought after and it's a. It's a dog fight out there, so everyone will try and Poach your guys once they hear this guy's coming close to his time there is over the years they will work with other, other trades, other companies in, in the industry. And those companies were like, geez, your guys are really good. I'm like, yeah, get your eyes off them. And you know, yeah. So you try and just. The only thing you can do, you can't, you can't chain them to the, to the desk. You know, you've got to say, look, the offer's there, I know what you're worth. Yeah, I'll pay you this. It comes down to money most of the time, unfortunately. Some, some will know and go, I'm not ready yet. I'm not ready to go out on my own. I want to, I want to do another couple of years with you to learn, to learn a bit more and that might transition from skills on site into the business side of it. I said, well, this is the first thing you've got to set up, you got to do. And I'll say you go out on your own or stay with me. It doesn't bother me. I'll help you as much as I can either way. So if you want to set up your business, I'll help you.

Well, I think that's, that's the point of difference as a successful business, A successful building company, if an apprentice wants to just take the money and go elsewhere, they not necessarily depending on what they want, what their future is, what they want out of their future, if they want to run their own building company, then that's your picture. Like I'll teach you to get to a point where you can run a successful company.

Yeah, that's right. And I won't just throw money at them to retain them. I say short term pain, long term gain. Right. You know, I'll teach you, you know, this is what you want to learn if you think that's something missing. And we'll pick up those things in the performance reviews. So I don't think you're there yet to go out on your own. This is going to cost you a lot. That being said, you really only learn once it affects you and hits you in the hip pocket. So maybe it's a good thing. Some I will say you need to go, you need to go out on your own because they feel that they know everything. I can see that they don't. But my time is done. I can't, can't influence them anymore because they feel like they know everything. And then most of the time they'll go out and go, yeah, I'm not ready, I'm coming back. That's okay.

So what are some of the biggest challenges you face with apprentices then?

We touched on it before about the following multiple tasks and instructions when they're younger. So if you give them multiple tasks in a row, they'll generally remember the first one and forget the other five. So I'll say, please write this down. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I got this. And they'll forget or dealing with their parents, their parents will ring you and I say, hang on, I'll employ your, your son. I don't employ you, so please don't ring me. You've got an issue. Let him tell me the issue. And I point that out from day dot. There's nothing more frustrating and most, most parents respect that. I said, hey, you're in the real world now. No more encouragement awards, no pats on the bum. When you do something wrong, you get told off.

I think it might be pats on the back. Otherwise you get a bit of trouble.

And reliability. You know, they might give you some fake excuses. My dog ate my homework. Or you. I was, I'm too tired to come into work today. Oh, I know you went out last night. You know, just tell me the truth. Yeah, so those sort of things. But that's just all part and parcel with young guys, I guess.

So how do you, how do you overcome them then? How do you kind of deal with those challenges?

You just, you just voice your opinion. Generally, they work themselves out because they'll get pressure from the rest of the team. So if the one guy lets them down, he's going to let the guy he was meant to be working with has now got to do that on his own or. And then they will sort of pull him in line.

So it's about creating that culture where it's a team environment. You're doing it for the team, you're not doing it for yourself.

Yeah, definitely. Right? Yeah, yeah. We do, we do this together. We celebrate the wins. We're all part of this. Whether you're a first year apprentice, you're a fourth year, you're qualified, doesn't matter. We all need each other and we're doing this together and that's. We celebrate the wins. So if one person's letting us down, it's a domino effect. The other thing I'd say would be holidays. They would generally not give you enough, enough time. They'd say, I booked a, I booked a trip to Bali. Hang on, we just had Christmas break. What are you Doing. Oh, nice.

Tommy here in Bali, I guess.

Yeah. You gotta. You gotta understand, you gotta give me some notice. So I get it. Like, I was obviously.

How old are the. Is the average apprentice?

I think got a few that are around anywhere from 18 to 22.

Yeah.

Summer 16.

They want to book a holiday to Bali at a whim.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my girlfriend's sick, so I'm gonna stay home with her. You're like, oh, come on. I had one. One excuse saying that I've. I gotta. I gotta leave early. I gotta get. Take my girlfriend's dog to the vet or something, I guess.

Yeah. It's. You've also gotta be empathetic to people's challenges in lives. Right. As well. To make sure they're happy.

Yeah. What, what I would do and what they do is obviously completely different. Yeah, definitely. And like I said before.

All right, what advice would you give to other builders that are looking to improve their apprenticeship program?

Just come. Don't be so hard and fast on your own rules. Be open minded to that. Not everyone is the same. People have different learning abilities, capabilities. They might have some learning difficulties. You know, they might. That's why they. Sounds bad, becoming a tradesman. But, you know, they might not have been academically at school. So they go, this is no good for me. I'm going to learn with my hands. So they may not be able to follow instructions as well as you could. So don't teach them the way you learn. Try and be open to teaching them different ways and doing those few weeks of discovery. Do you need to write this down? Do I need to text you this? Do I need to write on a block or do you need to carry a notepad? Finding the different ways on how they learn, putting the time into them to make sure they understand. They. They have a voice and they're safe and they've. Your door's always open.

Yeah.

Gone are the days of jumping up and down and screaming at them. You can't. You can't do that anymore.

Well, it doesn't motivate people either, right?

No, they just curl up and they go into their shell and it doesn't. It doesn't work. Yeah. And some people, I think that's the mentality a lot of people have is just, oh, they're just an apprentice. Just. Just yell at them. It's not, It's. Yeah, not good.

Well, I might. Yeah, it might get you short term wins, but certainly not long term. Like, you're talking about retention, team culture, you know, everyone rowing in the same direction and all that kind of stuff.

Yeah. You want to let them know that there's a future to. To that the hard work they put in is not going to go to waste. So they'll, hey, you work hard, you do the right things, you. You learn what you want to learn. In the time frame that we've set for you, you're going to. You'll be looked after. Not only will you be tradesmen, but you'll have a future.

Yeah, yeah. Are you seeing a decrease in the amount of apprentices trying to come into the industry?

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I used to get phone calls every week and now it's. It's few and far between. The other thing would be making sure they feel valued, you know, like they. Knowing they're part of a team, don't. Just don't ever talk down to them or you're just this. And make sure the rest of the team are not doing the same. Because it's a. You have that. I guess it's a form of bullying.

Right.

You can't.

Yeah.

You got make sure they. They're not feeling bullied or they're feeling like they can speak up. If they don't feel like that, then they. They'll always have something reserved in them that they won't be able to get out because they go, I can't say anything, I'm going to get teased.

And that'll play into retention as well.

Because eventually you got to watch the rest of the team making sure they're not doing that.

Yeah.

Because as they.

It's all. It's all layered. Right. If you're building the right culture when they first come in, you know, over time, the culture is just embedded throughout.

Definitely. Yeah. Making sure that obviously the. When they start, the young blokes and they progress up, they get some will tend to get a form of arrogance in them to go, well, I'm better than you now. And then they'll sort of talk down to the younger ones and you got to. You got to stomp that out as quick, as quickly as you can.

Yeah, yeah, perfect. Well, Tom, thanks so much for coming on and having a chat about apprentices. Sounds like you're doing some awesome work with building a good team culture at Cois Constructions and keeping a few. Few young blokes happy as they're kind of developing into construction business. Owners of the future, potentially.

Yeah, that's it. That's it. At the end of the day, they are the future. We can't all do this forever.

Yeah, that's it. That's it. And hopefully by, you know, building companies like yourself that are looking after apprentices will attract more people to the industry as well.

Yeah, true. Hopefully. Hopefully. Well, there's a trade shortage. Right. So we'll keep doing that.

Well, you said yourself you get less calls, so. But you've not found that you're struggling to find good team members?

No. You could reach out to the trade schools. I think the other good word of advice would be having a good relationship with their school teacher because they may tell the school teacher something that they're not telling you, or they may pick up, like the other set of eyes on something might pick up on something that I'm not aware of. You could call the school and just say anything you're worried about. Do you have any new apprentices coming through? But, yeah, and I find that growing your own people, your own team is. You get a much better result. Yes. It's. You're playing the long game because it takes you a minimum four years before you get a transit. However you. You're growing them to the way you learn, they think the same as you. They. They will do things by osmosis rather than you telling them so that all those things, it's hard to put a value on. Whereas if you've. You, you, you know, wave some money at a really good carpenter to get him onto your team, he'll do things differently and those little things will just annoy you. So I always find, because it's like, what's the saying? You can't teach an old dog new tricks. Right. So you gotta. Yeah, you gotta put up with them. But I find growing your own. Your own guys, yes, comes with its challenges, but I think in the long run it's better.

Yeah. The fruit bears over. Over time.

Yeah.

Cool. Well, Tom, thanks so much for coming on Professional Builder Seekers today. I've had a bit of. A. Bit of a laugh and. And some good chats about apprentices, but, yeah, appreciate you coming on.