132. Building Rapport With Sky Kolade

If we are only working on our communication skills when it matters, it's not going to deliver the best results.

Welcome to Professional Builder's Secrets, the podcast for building company owners wanting to grow safely and securely. I'm your host, Will Blunt, and today I'm joined by APB co founder, Sky Coladay. Sky, welcome to the show.

Hey, Will, how you doing?

I'm doing great. It's a Friday in Sydney for me, Friday on the Gold coast for you. Beautiful day outside. So looking forward to this podcast interview.

It should be really good. It's a great topic.

Today we're talking about building rapport in the sales process, which is an interesting topic for builders out there that might be looking to improve their sales skills. What are some common challenges you see builders face when it comes to this?

Well, building rapport. It's such a good topic. Really excited to talk about this on the podcast specifically because it's, it's something that's so important in sales. Yet the biggest challenge people in general, let alone building company owners face is first and foremost, probably the mindset or confidence around building rapport. Like even just the headspace or how you view it. It's either a skill you possess or you don't at all. Like, I'm not a people person versus I am a people person. But the thing with rapport, like anything, it is a learnable skill. But that's like the mental block for building any kind of rapport is almost always there. I think as well. It's then the stories you tell yourself. And yeah, there are a lot of things that are true, but consumers certainly now as we're recording this podcast and what has happened in the last several years, consumers are getting more and more and more and more pessimistic about builders and engaging a builder. And certainly like, can I believe you? Is what you're saying true? Why don't I fact check you against someone else? And so that often can make us feel on the back foot and that we have to try that little bit more. And suddenly a lot of what we want to be able to do in rapport goes out the window because we're overthinking it in our own minds in the background.

Yeah, interesting. I mean, how do you, how do you get out of your own head? That's. It sounds like that's what you're saying.

Yeah, and it's, it's difficult as well. Right? Because post pandemic, there's a lot less face to face meetings. And I think when you are more present with someone in front of you, it kind of forces you to get out of your own head. Like you're physically there, but when you're on the phone or to an extent in a zoom meeting, you kind of have that block and that barrier and you can tune out pretty easily and then just talk to yourself in your own head and even just talk yourself out of it. So there are definitely a whole heap of strategies and tactics that you can use to get out of your own head and happy to walk through them in solutions, but I think they're the biggest challenges. And unless you can acknowledge or sort of pinpoint where you think your biggest challenge or problem is, it's going to be a struggle to build rapport with anyone. And this goes for, by the way, not just your inquiries and your sales and your new leads. This is like interviewing new team members. This is engaging new partners. So all of your architects or suppliers or subcontractors, if you don't have this skill, it's actually really hard to grow a building company because you need to grow the people, the team, everyone who delivers the product for your building company as well. So it's too important a skill to let yourself overthink.

It's a great point. It's a great point. It's applicable to so many business relationships.

Yeah, exactly.

Has this changed at all in recent years?

Definitely coming back to what we talked about with consumers. If they're becoming more and more pessimistic about builders, it's their expectations that have shifted. And again, we're just in a new world. It is the new normal. We've talked about this so many times. So without sort of banging on about it, there's also huge changes economically. Things like interest rates have changed and that will change a lot of conversations. It changes a lot of, maybe even power dynamics as well. And economics change all the time. So the market is one way and then it will change. And, you know, there's always different chatter without getting sucked into too many of the details. There's always a shift in power dynamics, but a power dynamic would really help with confidence. It can help with confidence, but it's not the full confidence that you need. You need to have sort of a backbone or. Sorry, you need a. You need a baseline skill set of building rapport. But then depending what's happening economically, what's happening in your local market as well, that can influence your level of confidence as well. And you can go in a little bit stronger or a little bit calmer and sort of bring people along. So you need a baseline skill set. But depending what's happening in the market, it's going to change. And it's absolutely changed in the last few years, but even more so in the last few months. Like, this is constantly changing. It's going to be different in everyone's individual local market as well. I mean, a lot of building company owners have found that quality leads. Well, first of all, quantity, but certainly the quality of leads are drying up and it makes it much tougher. That, of course, changes the power dynamic. You feel like you really need each and every conversation, and this can come back all the way to the beginning that you get in your own head and then you're suddenly not as present. And because if you're not face to face, you're just on the phone, you're overthinking what's getting said. You're thinking, are you doing this right or wrong? And. And you know, you can very easily just derail a whole conversation, but if we bring it back, the most simple thing that you can focus on in a sale to begin with at least, is building that rapport. It's all about a relationship to begin with.

Would you say it's harder to build rapport based on those conditions in the market and everything that you mentioned?

No, interestingly, I would disagree with that. I don't think it's harder to build rapport. Rapport is a relationship. I actually don't even know the correct definition of what rapport is, but if we base it on, like, what is a good rapport, if we. If we stick to sales for a second, people buy from people that they know like and trust. Now, you can have excellent rapport with someone and you could still not make a sale because you don't know your staff. You know, you're not getting back to them quick. You're not following a sales process. There are so many sales, specific things that you can muck up and lose a sale, but you can have a really good rapport. And that's when you can see these two very different types of people. You know, there's people who just get along with everyone. You know, certainly you see this in a lot of marriages. One of them is the golden retriever of the marriage. They're the one that is the life of the party everyone goes to first. You know, they're almost like the favorite because they're the social butterfly of the two. Those people that we know like and admire, and they're wonderful people to talk to, but they can still mark up a sale or a relationship by not following through. So if we can just understand that you can separate the two, you've got sales skills that you can learn, and we've done so many episodes about that. But Rapport is almost like the predecessor. And we can really work on our ability to talk to people and talk to strangers and really talk to anyone and get them involved in a conversation and feel comfortable. And then you can go onto your sales skills that I think is not more important, but just as important as, you know, proper follow through.

Well, it's an interesting nuance that you've brought up there. Do you feel like if you're naturally good at building rapport, you could almost neglect the other components of a sales process that are important?

Yes. I mean, you see this all the time with salespeople. Certainly, you know, if you're hiring salespeople for your building company and you're going through the recruiting and interviewing process and you should absolutely have questions on there, like, how do you stay current? Like what sales trainers, books, like, what resources do you go to to sharpen your saw and stay better at sales? And if you hear back the phrase I'm just like naturally good at it, you know, like, I don't really need to do that. I'm just, I've just been really good. I just do it through experience. Red flag. Because that is someone who's always gotten away with just talking. And we know that that doesn't really work in life. Like, we need to upskill. There's a reason that all these resources ex. You know, the top performers do stay sharp. Even if you're number one in your field, you don't think those athletes do training regularly every single week. So, yeah, even if you do have, quote unquote, the gift of the gab and you're just really sociable and you're really good naturally at building rapport doesn't equal success. And so if that's true, the opposite's also true. Just because you're not naturally good at talking and building rapport with strangers and people doesn't mean you're going to be terrible at sales. It's a learnable skill. So we just need to, I suppose, be conscious of it. And if we know and you know what it is, if you dread the idea of it, that's probably the good maybe test. If you're thinking, okay, could I go up to a stranger and start talking to them? And if you dread the idea of it, probably a first indicator that maybe you're not as good at it. Some people are really good at it. They're just introverted, so they hate doing it, you know? So try and get on a scale of how well you you or where you sit on your ability to build rapport and how natural it comes to you. Try and get that gauge first and then you know where you can go with it.

It's complicated, isn't it? There's so many things running through your mind, and everyone's, you know, slightly different on the scale.

Yeah. And that's the thing. I've met so many, even sales team members who are introverts at heart, like, including myself. I just honestly don't enjoy talking to people. But when you do it all day long, it's a skill set. So you know how to talk to people. Because at the end of the day, with rapport, this is just like Conversation 101, right. We find the most interesting people that we've met in our lives. The people we find the most interesting are actually the ones that showed interest in us. They got us talking about ourselves, and that's a pretty easy skill. Being interesting isn't about talking about yourself. And so it's. Building rapport to a prospect isn't about talking about your building company. It's showing genuine interest in them. Yeah. Carrying conversation, having some tonality, you know, not letting the awkward pauses happen and, you know, encouraging them, making them feel interesting, safe and secure. That's really the basis that we need to do. It's not about talking about ourselves. That's not where rapport comes from. That's when people go, oh, I can't wait to end this conversation because they're so into themselves. Themselves. I'm bored. I want to talk about myself, you know?

Yeah, that's a great point. I'm sure a lot of people have gone on that journey. Getting inside your own head in a conversation and forgetting that you're actually talking to someone else.

Yeah. And then, like, it just becomes awkward. Right. And you both start, like, looking around. It's even worse when it's on the phone because you're like, okay, moving on.

All right, so I know you got some. Some great tips on how to build rapport, but before we dive into that, what are some of the consequences of not being able to build rapport quickly with clients in the building industry?

Well, obviously, sales, like, you know, if it can boil down to the most important things. Yeah. If we know that we buy from people we know like, and trust. Well, without rapport, we're not going to have any of that, so we're obviously going to miss out on sales or certainly the opportunity for a sales. Sales opportunity. If we do this wrong, even at the beginning stage, like qualifying a lead. But you could also lose the small number of quality leads that you do have because they start giving you 101 reasons that they don't need to build, they don't want to build, but specifically with you, they're going to go to the competition, they're going to go to someone that finds them interesting and they're allowed to just talk. Because just remembering the whole sales process right now. Yeah, we're the experts, we're the professional. We are, you know, number one in our field. Certainly that's how we're portraying it. And if a new lead inquires with a building company because they're wanting to build a huge, in like huge investment, forget investment property. I'm thinking any construction of any type, that's a huge amount of money to invest. So that already is probably a little bit nerve wracking and it's a bit intimidating going out talking to builders. And so if they've made all of those steps to at least talk to someone, we don't have the ability to get on with them. Even just human to human, not even getting into whether they're qualified or not. If we can't talk human to human, I mean, what do you think's going through their head? They're going to be, yeah, I don't want to go through this process with someone like you or your team or certainly your building company. They're going to look around, go to a competitor. And that obviously hurts your business in terms of leads, opportunities, sales. But it can also hurt your reputation because people talk. And they could talk about that really bad interaction they had with you or any of your team members.

Unfortunately, people make judgments really quickly, don't they?

So quickly. And that in itself is another reason we can get in our own heads. Because we're like, oh, how are you taking this? Am I talking too much? If I asked you enough questions, yeah, that's true. Slippery slope.

Okay, so what do you recommend for builders looking to improve the way they build rapport with clients?

If anyone hates the idea of this, I'm sorry, but it is about experience and exposure. We always talk. And we've said this before on the podcast, many times, do not practice in game time. Again, if we just go back to athletes, sports teams, we all follow them. It's the easiest analogy we can use. They aren't rocking up to the super bowl, playing with that team for the first time, making it up as they go along. They're not practicing in game time, they have practice. I have no idea whether it's every day, multiple times a day or every couple of days, who knows. But they have a regime and they are practicing so that when it comes to game time, no, it's on, it's time to do this. You know, it's the same with rapport. And you know, I know the two examples can't be more different, but if we are only working on our communication skills when it matters, it's not going to deliver the best results. So it's all about experience and exposure. And I'd highly recommend again, as scary as this may sound to, you know, natural introverts, just attend as many events as you can. Get very, very comfortable talking to strangers and building rapport. Literally the ability to have a conversation, anyone, about anything. That is a huge life skill. Even if you don't think you're going to get anything out of it. You are in terms of a skill set, but you have no idea what it could lead to. So start in a safety net. Start somewhere you feel safe and secure. These are friends of friends. It doesn't have to be work, friends of friends, social gatherings. Get really comfortable talking to people you don't already know. That is a skill set. But bring it into the industry as well. There are so many industry events and go to as many as you can. Start socializing and networking with other building company owners, suppliers, designers in your area. Socialize and work, I suppose with your peers and your colleagues and in practice and get that experience sort of around you so that when it's time for selling, which is literally what you need to to eat, you need to sell building contracts, you're a lot more comfortable. Like this is light work, this is super easy and you've got all of your sales skills to back it up. And I don't feel like it's worthwhile going into sales skills to be honest, like following up, how to qualify and blah blah blah, because we've done so many episodes on that and it is important. So sort that out. But yeah, the building of a rapport, getting that human to human relationship is what opens the door for you to be able to show off your sales skills. So experience exposure, start in your safety net, start with your colleagues, start with your peers and genuinely just be very conscious that this is a very important skill and be conscious of it not only for yourself, but the rest of your team, team members, especially if they're not able to even just talk to A client when they come to the office, like, make small talk. It doesn't reflect well on your building company. You need that warm, fuzzy feeling from everyone in a company. Like you're spending, what, half a million, a few million dollars with a construction company and you go to their offices for a meeting and someone just doesn't even greet you or offer you a cup of tea when you walk in? No, these are sort of human skills at a baseline. But engage. Like, let's learn how to talk to a lot of people. But then that's like the easy part. Experience and exposure. Probably also talk about, like, actually proactively going out and learning about it. And there are so many resources on this. Probably one of the best books you could start on is, you know that book by Dale Carnegie. Carnegie. I don't know how to say it.

I say Carnegie, but I don't know if that's right.

You know that book, how to Win Friends and Influence People?

It's like one of the most famous books of all time.

Yeah, yeah. An old book. It's a classic, but it's a classic.

Written in the 40s, I think.

Yeah. So, you know, look, if no one wants to read it, just get it on audible, go to Spotify, like, listen to it. But this book, I. I remember reading this probably like 10 years ago, and I remember this one line that just stood out. And I remember thinking at the time, it's very true. The, the sweetest sound to any person is the sound of their own name. Like, that is how innately selfish and self absorbed we all are. And we can try to be better people than that, of course, but this is just who we are as people. So when you understand how people work, you can build a rapport because you say their name back to them, you remember their name, you know, you take and show interest in them and their hobbies. You know, think about parents for a second. The, the best thing you can do to parents is show interest in their children. You know what I mean? It's like the easiest thing you can do, especially as clients. If you remember, they told you about their children and where they go to school and, you know, they're building a pool and they need a lap pool because, you know, their son's a competitive swimmer or whatever. Make note of those details. Bring them up like that matters to people. It shows that you were actually interested, you remembered, and you, you took a genuine interest in them when you remember little facts like that. So how to Win Friends and Influence People. And this really is a great Book because he goes through so many examples, and one that always stuck out or stood out to me. I'm not sure if you remember this. It's funny what everyone remembers from books, but there was this one bit, Will, in there when he was talking about how important people's names are to people. I think there was this one guy going into partnership. I'm going to butcher the story, but the bottom line of it was he was either buying another company or there was a merger or something was happening with another company. And the businessman to basically get 90% or a majority shareholding of this company. He knew that's what he wanted because he's in business. He knew the numbers. Like, bottom line of it. Why would someone else agree to a deal where they would get less shareholding? Well, this businessman over here said, the name of the company will be your name and your last name. And what did the other guy do? Done too easy. That's me. It's people's names, reputations, it's about them. And this is just how people operate. And rather than fight it, know it and accept it, and you will be so much better for it. Just being able to talk to anyone, build rapport and show an interest.

I noticed you're almost coaching yourself throughout that conversation because, you know, you mentioned me by name. It's like you're using this tactic.

Trying to have some practice, you know?

Yeah, no, it's. It's funny because some of the most charismatic. Well, the people that I perceive as the most charismatic people that kind of command the room and build relationships and rapport very quickly, you do notice, and I've heard people mention this as a tactic before, they use the other person's name multiple times in a first interaction. So it reinforces for them that they remember the name, but also therefore shows that they care.

Yes. You know what's really funny? And this is what's interesting. I love it when people do it to me. And again, it's just like, why? It's my own name, but it's like, yeah, you said my name, but something about it. I've always felt really awkward using other people's names. I don't know what it is. I've always felt so weird saying someone's name to them. But because of, you know, what you learn and you read, it's something I consciously, like, force myself to do because other people do notice it as well. Like, it even whips people into attention. And without getting into a bit of NLP and all of that, that is really important. That Brings awareness to the conversation immediately. So if you can do that in your sales process. But even just before building rapport, you're snapping people into awareness and making them really present and concentrate on what it is you're saying and guiding them toward just works.

I have a deep insecurity about getting someone's name wrong. And that's why I've always worried about saying the names.

Yeah.

Because you look really bad if you get someone's name wrong.

Yeah. Which, this, this, this goes into sales skills. But this is a rapport skill. Don't. And you know how you don't do that? Make an effort. This is when you get out of your own head. Be more present. You know when people just say, oh, I'm really bad with names. Oh, I'm just terrible with names. As soon as you tell me, can you just get that story out of your head? A lot of us do feel that way, but you're not really helping yourself if you keep perpetuating it. And that's like going back to the start of the episode. It's the mindset and the whole mind frame around building rapport. I'm not good at it. I'm just not a people person. We just need to get rid of those stories if we know at a baseline. Right now, we're quite shocking with remembering people's names. Try and put in place a system so that you're better. You know what I mean? You know when you, like, meet someone and you introduce them or they introduce themselves to you, you repeat their name back to them. And then you know what I've started doing? And this isn't new. I 100% learn it off someone else. But whenever they say their name, repeat back their name. Say, that's so interesting. Especially if it's a different name that is difficult in pronunciation or hard to remember. You think it'll be difficult to remember? Ask them a question about their name. Or when you ask the next person, repeat the next two in order. You know what I mean? Put a system behind the name so that you can bring a little bit more consciousness to it, because that's all we're losing. Someone's saying their name, and we weren't listening because we were thinking in our head. I'm really bad at this. But if you then have a system to bring consciousness and you're repeating it that many times, you're going through people, you're learning the story about it. Oh, that's such an interesting name. My cousin's called that. I've loved that name. Forever or whatever. Depends who you're talking to. You can bring a lot more awareness to it and you get out of your own head and you're suddenly more present.

Yeah, yeah. And that's it. I use a tactic actually, which is a bit nerdy when I'm going to like a social situation and I know that all of my wife's friends and partners are going to be there. I pull up a note on my phone in the Uber on the way there and actually jot down all the partners names to try and just. So like, it's almost like a memorizing thing so you turn up and you can actually talk to people.

It's bringing extreme awareness. Like it's, it's, it's not nerdy at all. It's like, you know that one movie, I think it's called House Bunny or something, and she has a tactic for remembering everyone's name. She'll say it in a really deep voice when they say it to her and she's like, it's how I remember. Don't be that weird. But, you know, you need a system.

Okay. We're getting lost a little bit in, I guess, just remembering people's names. But it's an important part about building rapport. Right. So how does that relate to building rapport? And what are some practical steps builders can use to. To remember people's names better but also just, you know, apply them to build rapport?

Well, yeah, Exposure and experience. Keep doing it. Like you, you. You need to not shy away from attending events, even just your own friends of friends. Like that is good practice time. Right. Because there's not high stakes. It's not dependent on a sale. But then it's about going proactively, looking for tools that can help you get better. And that's where that book came up. How to Win friends and influence People. Definitely recommend reading that. There is another book actually, and we've talked about this so many times. Sure. On this podcast. And, and it blew up. It went really well. It's Chris Voss's book. Never split the Difference. So it is a negotiation book. But even that in a negotiation, Chris Voss, he's like an ex FBI hostage negotiator. What do you think his main job was? It was to keep the people who had hostages talking. So suddenly you can learn all of these skills about how to keep people talking and how it's extreme examples in that book. But if anything, it kind of makes it seem a little bit easier because it's not a life or death situation in A social interaction that you're having. He had to keep people talking. And the reason you did that was make the people on the other end of the phone truly believe that he was interested in them. Like why he was doing this, why you need, why you're only giving me an hour. Why are you holding these people? What happened? Let me get to know you. And I'm oversimplifying it. Definitely read the book. But I think, think if you can go through resources like that, it's. It's simple tactics like labeling what someone just said, mirroring what they are saying, because it gets people to open up more and talk. And these tactics, they are so beyond simple that literally anyone and everyone can implement them. And suddenly your rapport can go from a 2 out of 10 to an 8 out of 10 just from using some of the tactics in that book. So I would go to those two particular resources first, because what you can gain out of them are insane. And they're just books that have been around for a really, really long time. And then you just need to put it into practice. It does come down to practice experience, but being very conscious and aware of what it is that you're doing. Because there are so many times you can be in a conversation, and when you bring extreme awareness to it, you will notice it. How much you're talking about yourself in a conversation and you feel bad, it feels awkward, it's very cringe. So you got to get back onto them as quickly as possible. And let's just remember the Art of Conversation. There's plenty of books on that as well. But the Art of Conversation is a conversation. It's not a monologue. Ask a question, interact. If they ask you a question, make sure you answer it. Return with one. You know, so many people just don't do that. And it's a weird thing to notice. I don't know if you have those experiences.

Yeah, of course. I mean, if you talk to someone, ask them a couple of questions, and all you get back is just statements about themselves and they don't, you know, further it from there, you're kind of like, okay, I'm done here.

And the thing is, what you think in your head is like, you're really boring and they think they're being interesting. They're telling you like, oh, yes, we did this and we've done that, and blah, blah, blah, cool. If you're not returning a question or going anywhere, there's no rapport there. And that sort of hopefully just highlights how simple it can be. Rapport is just genuine interest conversation. And as well, this, you know, without going a little bit off topic, likability is really important. And you don't want to change yourself, obviously, just to like, be all things to every person. But likability is so important, especially in sales. And you've just got to ask, well, what makes you likable? Well, what makes you interesting is when you're interested in the other person. So likability is a really important factor. If you're hiring anyone in sales, make sure you have a likability score in their recruitment process, because it matters. At the end of the day, you can have the nicest person under the sun. They could be excellent at sales. But if you don't like them, do you think your customers will like them? If they don't, that will hurt your business. Because think about how many times you have been in a sales situation, big or small. It could be buying, you know, a new dress or a new shirt or whatever. And you love the product. You love it. You have never looked better in this suit. And you know that you look a million bucks. But if you cannot stand the salesperson, you will find a way to not buy it and go behind them and go with another salesperson, go to another store, go to something else else. The same will happen for your building company. So likability is huge. And that comes back to rapport.

Yeah. On the flip side as well, like, you got to think about yourself as that salesperson. Right. Like, how are you coming across? Because there's been numerous times where you'll have a conversation with someone, I'll have a conversation with someone, and they're literally talking the whole time. I'm asking questions, they're talking. And they leave that experience thinking, oh, that was an amazing experience. I feel great. He was a really nice person. Do you know what I mean? But that you've not said anything. You've just let them talk.

Yeah, yeah. You got to pick, pick your windows. Yeah, it's, it's, it's got to be strategic. That's the thing. And, and being strategic in building rapport doesn't mean it's insincere. That's a really big misconception. That's not being insincere. It's being very conscious. Because otherwise you can just come across very selfish, self absorbed. And I think that's humans in general. So we always need to be very self aware of how we come across to anyone. We, we think about it with our, our friends, our family, you know, our employers, our employees. We're always thinking how we come across. So it's, it's not selfish, it's not insincere, I should say. Yeah. It's actually very self aware and that's what we need in life.

Yeah. It's a great distinction because you don't want to just ask questions for the sake of it. You need to actually show interest.

Yeah. Read the room as well. Sometimes people don't want to talk, so you acknowledging that makes them go, oh, they have great insight. You know, they get me and I'm not up to talking today, so let's rebook this conversation till next week. You know what I mean? Like that it just shows you're paying attention.

Yeah. Should builders adapt their approach depending on the different types of people or clients that they're talking to?

Of course. Of course. Like the most happy bubbliest person isn't going to get on well with a really reserved person who feels uncomfortable around people like that. You can, you can, you can't force someone to go into a different state. You can encourage them. But I don't know if anyone's watching this podcast right now. You can have someone's energy up here, that's like 10 out of 10. But if you have a really reserved person at a baseline, you know, over here, you, you do have to water yourself down a bit to meet them. And when you do that, they also meet you. So you're a little bit more on the same energy. But if you can't read the room, if you can't adapt, you, you just don'. Get very far and you're not going to get. At the end of the day, these are all outcomes that you want, so you've got to be able to pivot it. Also, it doesn't mean though, you've got to be really slimy because then you see some people who are just really ott over the top with how they mirror the other person. It's not about that at all. You want to stay true to who you are, but read the room, talk to them. Ah, let's acknowledge how they best like to be communicated to and communicate it that way.

I think we've touched on a few different mistakes that people make when trying to build rapport. Could you go into a bit more detail about what mistakes builders might be making in sales conversations?

Definitely. I think it's skipping over the rapport bit. I think that's the biggest mistake we've seen too much. Especially, especially as well. Certainly new members and not to call out any new members of apb. But it's very tempting and anyone in a learning journey, right, it's very tempting to get very excited in the training you're going through. So whether that was qualifying a new lead, you're just keen to go straight into the qualifying questions. Building the whole sales process, for example, you're keen to just get it moving. And that is a huge mistake a lot of building company owners make. When you're on this journey of, you know, improving a lot of systems in your building company, don't let rapport fall to the wayside because the systems, the processes is, you know, the black and white checklist, it's right, it's wrong, you know, we're moving forward is more important. It is important, but without rapport, you're losing that human to human connection. And what are you doing it for? Your staff aren't going to enjoy it. You know, your clients aren't going to enjoy you. You're a bit robotic, there's no personality there. Move along. Like, people aren't going to stick around. But if you can make sure you don't neglect the rapport side of it while you are implementing a lot of your systems, that's when you see a lot, a lot more success, but success in general, because if you skip it. Yeah, you're sort of just missing the baseline of what a good relationship with a client should be.

It's a good point you bring up around, like not skipping it, but how long do you spend in a sales meeting actually trying to build rapport? Is there a set amount of time?

That's such a good question. Because, you know, and we've all seen it, right. I'm sure we've all employed them or certainly interacted with them. Those salespeople who do not know when to transition from rapport sales time, like, come on, you're just chatting about your weekends for half an hour and it's like, okay, are we turning this into anything? I don't know if this is a bit contra, but I don't think there is a sweet spot of time. It's very dependent on the person in front of you. However, what I will say is it's not two distinct stages. It's not building rapport. Okay, we have rapport. Time's up. Let's get down to business. Rapport is something that you have to build and kick off with and get to know someone and have a baseline of rapport. And then as you move through the rest of your sales process, it is all adding to your rapport. So it's Almost like it's perpetual. Yeah. I don't know if that's even, like, a good answer for you, because it's looking to me the whole time. But you certainly have to. You lead with it in the beginning. Certainly a first conversation. It has to be about rapport. You're not diving straight into your qualification questions and, you know, talking about, all right, talk to me about the house. How many bedrooms? Like, no, boring. Let me. Okay, what was your name? Okay, let me know. Like, what's the house for? Okay, you've got a family. So whereabouts you living at the moment? Where's your land? You can see there's some qualification questions in there, but there's personality. And you're showing interest. You're taking notes. You're bringing it back to what they just said. That is rapport. And then as you go deeper through the sales process, you are continuing it. You're not robotic and have no personality. It's coming back to that thing. We're likable. We are a pleasure to interact with.

Actually, I just tie this to when I've heard you talk about the qualifying process before, because you're asking those questions and documenting that information. You can refer back to those things. And that actually builds rapport because you've listened to them and they're like, oh, this person is actually listening to what I want.

Want. Exactly. And you know what? Also, they think. They think they care. And you do. Let's not. It's not that we're not sincere. You do care. But people really take that on. It's like, wow, like, you remembered that. Like, even if it's just one thing, like in a throwaway comment, you know, when you bring that back up, that's what matters. And that brings the rapport through the entire sales process. And it's also a really good point to mention that even if you stuff up your rapport at the very start, doesn't mean it's gone forever. You can make it back because again, it's about your interactions.

Yeah, that's a great point. Like, just remembering something about someone that no one else would remember can go a long way.

Yeah. Showing interest. Remember the most interesting people. And I know I've said it a hundred times, but it's the best thing to remember. The people we find most interesting are really just the ones who are interested in us because we are that self absorbed.

Well, speaking of being self absorbed, how do you know if you've been able to build rapport with someone? Because I imagine there's certain people out there that might think they've built rapport, but really they've just spoken about themselves the whole time.

Oh gosh. And this is where self awareness comes in. And unfortunately, if you can't be self aware, to be honest, you just don't get very far in life. You know that expression we learn from experience? No, we don't. We learn from reflecting on experience. So unless we can be self aware, we can't really grow. But I think the easiest way to track do we have a rapport with someone is actually look back to that conversation who did most of the talking. If you did 90% of it, you don't have rapport. You just monologued. Was it 50? 50? Okay, they were engaged. Could I get them talking 80% of the time? That's actually a pretty good sign because the other person was comfortable enough to keep sharing and keep talking. Yes, of course you get some people who just chatterboxes and do love talking about themselves, but that in itself is a good sign because if they love that and that's their natural state, you are able to perpetuate it and you were able to keep it going. So that's sort of like the easiest way on the surface. Do I have rapport? But there's something in this is very sales specific. But this is in Jordan Belfort's sales training. He even wrote a book, you know, the Wolf of Wall Street. Jordan Belfort, he's actually a fantastic sales training content that he produces. But something he talks about is certainty scales. So when you lose a deal or even as you're working on a deal, where is the prospect's certainty on these three areas? And he really wants you to get to a 10 out of 10 on all three of these areas. And if you don't win the deal, it's really good to reflect on where was low. Like what did, what were they not certain on? And the first one's the product. So are they certain on the product? They know that you build the highest quality, the design and build that you have is 10 out of 10. So certainty on the product, then you've got certainty on the company. This is very much like the brand, the reputation, like what they've heard about. And then the third one is you. And that's why liability in salespeople is, is really important. It's just like if you were trying on that suit, you love the product, the suit was fantastic. You love the brand. So that's the company, the brand, like you know, you, you love it. You're finally gonna Buy this brand, you 10 out of 10. But on the certainty scale, if it was the salesperson you, that was a 1 out of 10, you couldn't stand them, you cannot close the deal. Um, so that's a really good like triage approach you can use if you think you're struggling to close someone them on to the next step. Have a, have just a quick reflection. Where do you think their certainty scale hits on either company, product or you? And to be honest, if you don't know, if you're like, I'm not sure and it's average of five, well, they're not certain. And that's your answer. So you actually know where to move up. Like they're just very average. We've not delved deep into anything. I haven't heard that they're sure about anything so far. So you know, you need to do better and keep going.

Yeah, I love that. And based on that equation, it's like rapport is almost a third of the equation. Do you know what I mean? Like building rapport.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Think of all the ways that your company can build a rapport with someone. I mean, that's all your online marketing efforts. That's, that's your email campaigns, how you show up online on social media, how all of your company has gotten back to them on time and in a timely manner. Like what's the professionalism, the product or all of your reviews online, how many case studies you have? Do you know what I mean? You can do a lot of that, you know, rapport for the other ones through the company and almost automatically through your marketing efforts and even your operations and systems. But you as a person can let it down. So that's why we've got to then control ourselves or certainly our sales team and how they're presenting and showing up as well.

That's a great point. You can build rapport through video content and stuff like that as well online. Like personal rapport too. Right, right.

Oh gosh. The. The most successful builders that we've coached, funnily enough, always get surprised when they implement it. But especially if you are still doing the sales in your building company or even if you are not, you are the face of your own building company. You're getting out there and you're doing your content videos and all of the email marketing emails, not the one to one sales emails from your sales team, but the email marketing emails. It's your name and your face because that has been online and been sent videos and they've been targeted with heaps of videos on YouTube or different social media channels. They subscribe to your building company, so they're getting information emails weekly or a couple of times a week. There is all this rapport because I know that Will Blunt from APB has been talking to me and I've seen him online this whole time. So by the time he personally reaches out to talk to me, I feel like I know you. I already feel warmed up. I'm ready to talk to you. And your report gets off to a flying start. Gosh, it is just so, so successful for building companies.

We've all had that, we've all had that experience where we're like, how do I know that person's name? And it automatically gives you a level of trust with them.

Even just like meeting someone you're so friendly to begin with and you're like, oh, gosh, wait, we were only friends on social media before. This is the first time we've met in person.

Well, I'm sure we could probably spend a whole podcast episode talking about company rapport. There's lots to unpack there. So maybe let's, let's reel it back in and get back onto the main topic that we're on here. What can builders do as their very next step to improve the way they build rapport?

I think let's just talk about some resources. I've mentioned a couple books if you want to go read them, listen to them. Absolutely, go for it. If I can just take a moment to direct you to some of our resources, I think this would be exceptionally helpful. Again, it's a balance of rapport, but then actual sales skill because you need to be able to bring your rapport through different parts of your sales process or your sales acumen. So look, if you are a member of apb, you've got, gosh, the advantage because as a member you've got access to so many different sales resources. You know, from our full on sales process training, we call it the sales blueprint, to qualifying training. So all of the questions to ask and there's even actually rapport training in that action plan training where it talks about how to ask the questions in a way that doesn't sound like you're reading from a little checklist, you know, how you engage with them, how you can respond and some tips like that. Ditto. After qualifying, you've got discovery. We've got heaps of resources on that. There's also two other trainings that you'd love specifically on negotiating. So it's all on Chris Voss's negotiating tactics and how to use influence in your sales process. And that is all based off of. Wonderful book. Again, I'm probably going to butcher his name. Robert Cialdini. Cialdini, yeah. Yeah. Give two options and then you'll be fine. He's got a book on influence. Huge book. It's more like a textbook. So we've basically summarized it and put in the pillars and laws of influence. Influence and how you can move forward with people. As members, you've got access to all that. It's video content. It's super easy to consume. So all of that is combined sales training with the ability to build rapport. If anyone's listening and you're not yet a member, consider it. But if you need something in the beginning, I'd go through some of our free resources and download our sales blueprint for free, where it actually maps out what it looks like. Because if you can picture and understand where the sales process is going and just remember your rapport happens at the very beginning and then throughout the whole thing so you know where you're adding it on, where you're focusing it.

Awesome. Well, sky, you've provided so much value today about building rapport and just being more proactive about how you're thinking about interacting with people and being interested in what they're saying. So I've learned a lot and I'm sure everyone else out there has as well. So I appreciate you coming on the show.

No, thank you. Awesome episode. So, yeah, we'd love to hear feedback and comments.

Thanks, guy. Also, a big thank you to our listeners wherever you are in the world. If you like the show, please subscribe to Professional Builder Secrets on your platform of choice. And if you're feeling generous, leave us a review. But until next time, have a great day.