133. The Pricing Masterclass With Richard Armstrong

We've really approached it with a. With a builder's hat to try and make it easier for builders to give clients good information at the early stages.

Welcome to Professional Builders Secrets, the podcast for building company owners wanting to grow safely and securely. I'm your host, Will Blunt, and today I'm joined by Richard Armstrong from Procalc. Richard, welcome to the show.

Thanks, Will. It's great to be on with you.

Very excited to have a chat today about all things pricing, you know, all those exciting things that builders are dealing with.

Yeah, it's a bit of a hot topic over the last few years, isn't it?

Well, yeah, always a hot topic, but especially in recent times. Do you want to just dive into a bit of your background in the construction industry?

Yeah, sure. Look, so I was basically a registered builder for about 15 years, mainly focusing on renovations and extensions, which, you know, most builders listening to this will probably agree that that's the complex sort of job that is always challenging to cost. A lot of the work that I've done in the past has really been around Inter Metro work where we're helping clients extend or renovate their homes. And, yeah, it's been a really rich experience.

Cool. What is Procalc, then? What's it all about?

Yeah, so look, Procalc is something that. An idea that I came up with because I was fed up with standing in a client's lounge room and wondering whether they could even afford what they were talking about doing. So builders listening to this will know that when it comes down to estimating a project, it can take days, weeks, even months by the time you reach out to subbies and burn up their time as well. It can really be a painful experience if it's a speculative task that the builder's doing, because you don't always know that you're going to win the job. And so I thought to myself, look, there's got to be a burden, better way to do this. So I. I set about trying to create a calculator that was basically, its main purpose is to validate client budgets. And so the idea is that you can take a set of plans, upload it into the system, do a quick takeoff, and then it gives you instant pricing for that project. And, and, but in order to make that work, I had to make sure that it worked for every kind of project. It had to work for every kind of build all over the country. And so what I then did, I reckon now I've interviewed over 700 builders on the way that they cost jobs, the way that they engage with clients and the way that those early conversations play out and what really sort of came through to me, particularly for, say, for straight construction builders, is that they really needed something that could qualify clients in those very early conversations and do it quickly and easily and efficiently. So they didn't have to spend weeks on an estimate, but they also wanted to be able to. Inevitably, when a client gets the first bit of feedback on the pricing, the client says, oh, that's way too much. Can we strike out that bedroom? Can we strike out this? Can we strike whatever it may be? So the other pain point that we came across was that builders really struggled to deal with what ifs. So if you change the design, what if you did that and what effect does that have on the pricing? So that was the other pain point that they told us about. The other one was also checking their pricing. So prices have changed so much over the last. You know, in fact, they just keep on changing that. A lot of them really sort of wanted a sounding board to check that their pricing of their detailed estimates was actually correct. So that was the construction sector for the DNC sector. It was often that the builders really wanted their designer to be able to cost projects at design stage, when it first went onto paper, so the builder wasn't having to run their eye over the designs and cost it for the designer and say, no, look, you've got to. We've got to meet this budget and you've got to take it back and correct it and make it better. So what we've really tried to do is construct an estimator that is really fast to use. And so it's, it's instant. And what it enables the builder to do is, is address all of those pain points. And we've now got to a stage where we're. We're achieving just on 93% accuracy. So for every 100 jobs that goes through the system, we're now getting the price that's within our price range every single time. 93% in 93 of those. So. And the way that we've done that is we've basically put through over 10,000 real builders estimates through the system now. And so we put through the system, then we double back to see what the builder's price was for the detailed estimate. So we've really approached it with a builder's hat to try and make it easier for builders to give clients good information at the early stages.

Interesting. Yeah. My next question was going to be, how accurate is it? What type of information is it? Spitting out for the builder.

Well, look, it really, it generates basically what's called an opinion of probable cost, which is not an estimate, it's not a price, it's not a budget, it's a legal term that protects the builder. And so it spits out an opinion of probable cost that is basically a range. So, you know, obviously when a project's at concept stage, often when a client, client first wanders into a builder's, you know, wanders onto a builder's radar, they might be waving around a very basic concept. And so really what we need to do is facilitate a conceptual approach. And so for that reason, what we've done is we've developed a system that, that basically mimics the marketplace and provides a range. So you've got a low, mid and high. And that way when it's given back to the client, the client looks at it and says, okay, well this is, you know, we know that the budget for our job is between, you know, 900,000 to 1.1 million. And that what that's doing is it's giving the client the best possible information given that they've got embryonic drawings. You know, they really haven't got a lot of detail in the drawings in a lot of cases. So that's really the key piece of information that is provided. But that comes within a, you know, it's in a two page report.

Okay, and is it, is it broken down at all or is it just those, is it just the high level? Okay, 900 to 1.1 range?

Yeah. So look, we did a lot of thought thinking about this and one of the things that really came through in the research that we did with builders is that they didn't want something that enabled the client to pull apart their quote, gotcha. So they didn't, you know, they didn't want to get that old gem of oh, my cousins are sparky, can he come and do the electrical work? Can you strip that out? You know, all that sort of stuff which, you know, every bill, every builder, when they hear that, they just go, I don't want this. And so really what it does is it aggregates all of that up so that it can't be split by the client. But what it does do is we do talk about the bathrooms, the fit out, the footprint, the walls, the windows, all of those kinds of things. So all of these metrics that are really, really important for providing accurate costings to clients, we capture all of those. So that what that then does is that the client can look at it and Say, all right, well, we know that the builder has covered all of the material, all of the windows. We know that there are 50 square meters of windows and that's covered in this, in this figure. What that then automatically does is it helps the client wrap their head around the idea that if they dial it from 50 square meters of glass up to 60 square meters of glass, that that's going to affect the price, you know, that it changes it. So it positions the client in a way whereby they're informed about what they're doing. So if they do change the design, the builder puts it back through, you know, they play out a what if? And the builder puts it back through Procalc. What it then does is it changes that 50 square meters to 60 and it also changes the opinion of probable cost so that if the client sort of says, oh, but hang on, you said it was going to be a million dollars, the builder can quite rightly point to it and say, yeah, but we've got an extra 10 square meters of glass in this and we've got this and we've gotten the other. And so it captures all of that without the client being able to pick it apart and, you know, make it difficult for the client, for the builder rather. And so the thing to remember is that the purpose of providing that early Procalc report, which is just an opinion of probable cost, is to work out whether the client can afford it or not and whether it's worthwhile the builder investing more time in them by doing a really detailed estimate in their usual costing software.

Interesting. How does it factor in? What variables can the builder input in terms of if they've got a certain target markup that they're trying to apply to their jobs or applying fixed costs and things like that, as well as maybe they're a luxury builder that's focusing on really high end products and things like that. How does it factor in those variables?

Yeah, absolutely. We've basically got different grades of fit out and also grades of finish. And so, for example, if the designs have come from a, say a drafty or the designs have come from an architect, then we apply different costing models. So it really factors that in. And I guess it's really important that we always make sure that we make it flexible so that it can cope with different fit outs, different specific requirements. So, you know, say, for example, if the, if the site needs a septic tank, you know, we need to be able to factor that in because obviously a very small percentage of jobs have septics, but they're worth, you know, 30 odd grand. So you've got to be able to factor that kind of thing in. And that's exactly what it does. So it enables the, the nuances of each job to be folded into it, be it water tanks or hydronic heating or whatever it may be. That's all folded into it.

And in terms of markup, is it a set markup or.

Yeah, so what we do is we mimic the marketplace. And so what we do is we work on a margin and the margin is actually anywhere between 13 and 33%. So that's the range that we work on. And the reason why we do that is that there are a few reasons. One is that it's highly conceptual, as I touched on earlier at that stage. But as well as that, when a client goes out to an open market tender and you can almost set your watch by this, typically what happens is the tender responses come back in and there's a 20% differential between the lowest and the highest. And so that also gels with that 13 to 33% margin. But then as well as that, when you're talking about, say, for example, a regional volume builder, they'll be very much at the lower end of that range. Whereas if you're talking about a bespoke architectural builder who's working in, I don't know, the inner suburbs of Sydney, they're going to be at that very high, at the higher end of that range. So it's really what we've done is we've deliberately made it so that it just mimics the marketplace so that if the, if the client turns around and we've actually had this happen where the client says, look, I've got this Procalc report, I'm going to go out and fish around in the marketplace and see what I can see what I can get. And it comes back pretty much exactly where we said it would, because we have deliberately worked to just reflect exactly what the market does.

Yeah, makes sense.

Makes sense.

One last question about the product before we dive into a few other things about pricing. I'm just intrigued to find out more. How are you handling the inputs from the builder? Because I imagine people are using different files for their designs and everything like that. Is there a certain type of file that you need to make to spit out the right cost?

Now, look, basically, if the builder's got a PDF plan set, they can just load it straight into the system. They do a quick takeoff on screen and then they've got an instant budget report or, you know, a report, a Pro calc report. And so we've tried to. And it's a good question because we did actually spend a lot of time working out the best format for this. And we thought, you know what, everybody uses PDFs. That's what we're going to go with.

Yeah, okay, easy enough then. So just to dive in a bit more about, I guess, the problems you're solving as a business and maybe what some builders out there are facing, what are some of the typical challenges when it comes to pricing projects that you've noticed out in the market?

Yeah, look, there are a few that sort of came up in our research interviews and one is, I think a lot of builders learnt to cost projects from their old boss, for example. Yeah, okay. So however it was, you know, it might have been 20 years ago or 10 years ago, whatever it may have been, but often this, what I'll call knowledge has been passed down from one boss, you know, from the boss onto the, onto somebody else who's working on site. And it sort of goes that way. Or another one is that, you know, and I did this myself when I first started building is you'd basically go out there and say, all right, well, look, I think it's, you know, about this much percentage what I need to put on, I'll try that and see if I win the work, you know, so, and that's, and that's a common thing that every young builder does, is that they'll sort of price it, thinking, okay, well, I haven't got many overheads. I probably, you know, I just need to make sure I get paid and, you know, and want to cover some bare minimum of costs. And they, and they, you know, it's obviously under costing it, but they do this, adopt this trial and error approach. So that's another way that people do it. One other thing I did, did experience myself was when I was getting my ticket and I did a cert for in construct. And I remember sitting in a workshop where the person teaching estimating said, all right, and so you just whack on your 20% there and away you go. And that was the way every job was the same according to this person. And what we've seen is that really, in truth, few of those methods are correct. Okay. They're flawed in the way very few builders have actually been taught very effectively and, you know, properly how to cost jobs. So in a lot of the interviews that we did, we found that a lot of builders didn't capture all costs. So a classic one is, you know, leaving project management out of it, or, you know, some of the site setup fees and all that sort of thing. Or they'd apply the wrong margin. So they'd be, you know, doing a complex renovation in a Metro and they'd be putting on a. The equivalent of a 17% margin, for example, or another one is that they might cost every job in exactly the same way. So the truth is that when we looked at the way builders cost jobs, they need to factor in a whole lot of things. So everything from where the job came from is really important. So if it's come from an architect who's going to be supervising the job, the builder needs to facilitate the level of detail and the architect's expectations in their pricing for doing that sort of thing. Even the contract that they sign, if it's an ABIC contract, which is the architectural contract, there's a lot more involved in that. There's more risk for the builder versus an HIA contract, whether it's, you know, there's a lesser risk involved. So there's a whole bunch of nuances that come into it, even what the clients like. So if the client's going to, you know, be relatively heavy going and they're going to need a bit of client, you know, a bit of management from the builder, the builder needs to factor in a couple of hours a week for those conversations and the client has every right to ask those questions. I suppose, you know, if they're spending a million bucks, a couple of million bucks on a house or whatever it may be, they rightly or wrongly will have an expectation that they can tap into the builder and, you know, ask questions and probably hang around a bit more than the builder wants them to. But, but at the end of the day, if the builder gets a sense of that, then it's really important to fold that into the costings and all of those things and more are what we make sure to cover in Procup, because it. They're things that dramatically affect the pricing.

What's the impact on the builder's business if they're getting pricing wr or they're, you know, they're essentially guessing the way to price and they're early on in the journey.

Yeah, look, I reckon it's, it's even, it's massive on their business, but even more importantly, I think it's massive on their personal lives. Because if they're, if they're undercharging, which in our experience, I reckon about 80% of builders undercharge. But if they're undercharging, what it Means is that a, they've probably got a little bit of stress in the business, but they've also got a few hurdles in them achieving the lifestyle they want in their retirement because they're not banking enough money. Yeah. And so the immediate effect is that there's a significant amount of stress for the builder in the business and making sure that they can make ends meet and that they're taking on enough jobs to meet those, you know, to be able to get a return out of it. And then obviously there's the follow on of, you know, not necessarily funding the lifestyle that they want to have later on in life. So I think. But in the immediate term, the key thing is if a builder can increase their margins even just by a few percentage points, what it means is that rather than having to run three jobs at once, they can run two jobs at once and they can do a better job. They can do a better job of supervision of trades. They've got less people that they need to manage and it's a far less stressful exercise for them. So it's quite possible that you could be making good money with less stress if you, if you improve your pricing.

100% and it's inevitably a better experience for the client as well.

Oh, absolutely, yeah. Because it means that the builder's not running around like a blue ass fly, you know, just stressed and, you know, getting snappy with trades or snappy with clients or whatever. And look, no judgment from me because I've been that guy, I know what exactly what it's like. So it really is, it is quite a freeing experience. Once you get your pricing right. It does actually make life much, much easier for the builder.

Yeah. The tricky part is, and one thing I think a lot of builders would feel out there, they need to compete on price, that they need to be the lowest price to get the job. What do you think about that?

Yeah, I've got a lot of thoughts about that. I reckon that just looking at it from the client's perspective, I think in my experience there's quite a significant proportion of jobs that are often awarded to not the cheapest tender, not the cheapest estimate, but the one that the client trusts the most. So building trust with clients is actually more important than anything. If you look at the marketplace, then I think there is always going to be that 1 in 5 or that 20% of clients who are just interested in getting the cheapest price, in finding some poor builder that they're just trying to bend over a barrel and get the cheapest price. And squeeze them down and yada yada. And that's a tough place to live for the builder because if you've got cost structures in place that don't make you the cheapest, and when I say the cheapest, I mean you've got the cheapest trades, you've got the lowest cost of materials, you've got the lowest overheads, you've got all the lowest. Unless you have all of those lowest costs in place and you're cheaper than 95% of all the other builders out there, you're just going to go broke slowly trying to chase that work. You know, you'd be better off going and playing golf because you'll go broke more slowly but you'll less, you'll have fun, you know, so, so I think I would, I would strongly encourage anyone who's listening to this. If you, if you are finding yourself being exposed to that, that lower 20% of the marketplace whereby they're, they're just trying to crunch you on price, if you haven't got the lowest cost base of anyone, you know, get out of that space, get well and truly out of it because you will just give yourself a heart attack. And you, you really are making a rod for your own back. If you, if you look at the other end of the spectrum, you've got, you know, 20% of people who, they're interested in price, but they are really more interested in quality. Okay? So that's, that's right up the other end. And so really what they're, they're interested in is making sure that they have a positive experience, that they get a builder that they, they really like and they will get a positive outcome and they're prepared to pay a premium for it. So that's the other end of the scale and obviously that's the client that we all want. They're great. And then in the middle you've got that remaining, I'll call it the mainstay middle, you've got where they've got a sort of a real trade off between quality and price. And so what they're really looking for there is good value. Okay. And I think the way to, to look at those two groups, the, you know, where they've got the middle and the mainstay and then the higher end clients is if you're wanting to attract those guys, what you really want to do is make sure that you are offering some sort of specialization. So rather than being Bob the builder who has, who does decks, pergolas, first floor extensions, knockdown rebuilds, and everything really narrowing down what you focus on too. It might be first floor extensions or it might be knock down and rebuild, or it might be in a metro renovation specialist, you know, so really segmenting and say, and establishing yourself as the guru in that particular kind of project so that you can then honestly put hand on heart and say, look, we are the, we are the real gurus at this kind of work. This is our specialty. We don't do any other kind of work. And that's when builders can start attracting stronger margins that actually will keep them well and truly away from those, you know, the lowest 20% who are just trying to, you know, put them over a barrel to get the cheapest possible price.

Yeah, that's exactly right. We've all had an experience. I'm sure you have. I have many a times where you learn from taking the cheapest price. And you know, that next time I can't do that again because it's not just in building a house, it's in anything. Right. If you take the cheapest price, you usually get what you pay for.

Yeah. And look, building is a complex game. So if you think about, on any project, it's not just a case of getting, you know, a dozen things right. It's a case of getting thousands and thousands of things right in sequence. You know, so you've got a team of people that you're trying to make sure that it all flows well. Any client who's focused on just getting the cheapest builder, what they're going to finish up doing is possibly getting someone who isn't really across a system or doesn't have a system for delivering those thousands of tasks.

Yeah, I think there's always the potential they'll cut corners or something like that. Right. And if you end up with a. Your forever home, if that's, if that's what you're doing and you know, they haven't got the waterproofing right or they haven't done something right, you know, in the build. It's. Yeah, it can cause huge issues down the line.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And look, I think it's, I think it's really important that builders work early in the part, early in the. Early in the engagement with clients to build trust with clients, to help clients understand that they bring a wealth of expertise to the party. And look, when you, when you, when you think about most clients, when they first start talking to a builder, they are clueless. They are totally clueless in comparison to the builder. There's a real asymmetry in terms of the amount of information that the builder has versus what the client has. And so the clients are scared. So for a lot of them, the most intelligent question they think they can ask is, what's your price? And that's really probably the last question they should ask. It's a question they have to ask, but it's the last one. You know, there are. There are 20 or 30 questions before that they should be covering often. And it's really up to the builders to help the client understand what makes the builder different, to get to that stage. Yeah.

It's why we highly recommend using content marketing for builders, because it's especially video content and stuff online. You can build up a lot of trust with people before you ever have a conversation. And it takes price out of the equation most of the time.

Absolutely, yeah. So CRMs are massively powerful. They're incredible. And I've used them myself when I was building and we had people call me up and say, oh, hi, Richard, it's such. And they just launch off into their brief. And I'd be thinking to myself, I don't even know who these people are, but they knew me because we'd been doing the drip feed and keeping the information going out to them. So that sort of thing is really powerful. Social proof is really powerful. But I think that the other thing too is actually helping clients engage in a small transaction to then engage in a larger transaction. So a lot of builders listening to this will have started off, particularly when they first got their ticket, they might have gone and done some bathrooms and some decks and pergolas, the usual sort of things. And then what happens is a year or two later, the same client calls them back and says, hey, can you come and do this extension? And it turns out the extension's worth 700 grand, or whatever it may be. So what's happened there is that the client has gone through a very human process in building trust and they've actually. They've taken a small risk with the builder and gone, oh, that worked pretty well. And so then they take a bigger one and a bigger one and a bigger one. So the way that humans build trust is actually by doing a small risk and then a larger. And then a larger. So engaging with clients in a way that enables them just to do a very small spend with you right at the very beginning, and then a slightly larger spend and then a slightly larger spend, and then the actual build cost is a really powerful tool for builders.

What's an example of that?

So, look, I suppose One of the things that we encourage builders that we work with to do is really, in the very first meeting, do what is basically a project review and produce a report. It's a three page report. We've actually got a template on our website for it and the idea is that you can say to the client, look, we'll come and look at your project and we're going to look at the site, the feasibility of the site, to do what you want to do. We're going to look at the design, we're going to look at the existing structure, if it's a renovation and extension to determine how suitable that is. We're also going to answer some questions for you and we're going to step through the whole thing and give you a builder's perspective. Because builders have got a, they've got, they've got a stronger perspective and a more balanced perspective than anyone else in the industry. So it's actually where the rubber hits the road with builders is actually their knowledge and most builders don't realise how much they know. And so being able to say to the client, look, when we first come and meet with you the first time on site, we're going to put together a report for you and it will cover all of this and it will also cover the cost of the build using a pro calc report, and we're going to charge you for it. And so, and you might charge if somebody, if builders feel nervous about this, what I often encourage them to do is at first charge $99, okay? Make it a no brainer for the client, make it easy. So any client who's not prepared to pay $99 for a builder to come and give them a full report, spend an hour of at least an hour with them on site. And these are all key questions, by the way, that the client must address in order for them to work out whether they can proceed with their job or not right at the early stages. So it's high value information for the client. So any client that backs away from spending $99 on that sort of information probably throws up a bit of a red flag in that they may not be a high quality sort of client and it might, if they opt out at that stage, it might actually be a good thing. So that combined with a CRM, which is what you were touching on before, I've seen that work extremely well. So the CRM starts building the relationship and then when you actually get to the stage of engaging with the client, then builders will charge anywhere from $99 through to as much as $2,000 if it includes a design concept. So it really, there's a whole series of steps that a builder can take to provide value to the client and they must provide value. I'm not talking about profiteering. I'm talking about providing clients with really sound advice so that they can get a good bit of feedback from the builder that enables them to progress their project. And nine times out of ten, once a client has actually spent that $99 or that whatever, you know, whatever it is they've spent with the builder, what that then does is that if they, when they have a positive experience with that, what they then tend to do is go ahead and say, all right, this builder did a great job on that. We can now engage them for the next stage, which might be a prelim agreement or it might be a detailed estimate and for which the builder charges, and then that leads into the actual construction.

You've given some great advice on how builders can improve their pricing strategy. Is there any final tips that you want to, want to share with the audience?

Yeah, look, I think it's really important. There's this thing that, you know, we're talking about how builders work out their pricing. It's a bit of a black box sometimes. And I think for a lot of builders and certainly a lot of the builders that we spoke to, they still had some little nuances that they weren't quite getting right in their pricing. That was costing them profit, it was costing them money. And, you know, and we talked about the future cost of that. So I think it's really important that builders do test their pricing. And so really factoring, you know, there are all sorts of influences being everything from job source to the, you know, from where who referred the client in with the location, the project type, you know, be it a volume or a, you know, a bespoke build or whatever it may be the contract, all of those things that we touched on that can really affect pricing. So I think it's really important that, that builders do test their current pricing. And probably the easiest way for them to do that is actually just tap into the. There's a part of the rewards program with apb. And also on our website, builders can actually do a free two week trial. So actually show you how to use Procalc and then you can actually put some jobs through it and compare your pricing to ours. And keep in mind, our pricing is Based on over 10,000 builders quotes all over the country. So it gives builders a really good snapshot of where they sit in comparison to the rest of the market. So. So I know that's. I'm pretty sure that's available through the. The rewards section of the APB website. But you can also go directly to our website, which is www.procalc. so P R O C A L C dot com. And. And you can just sign up for a free trial there and we can step you through it.

Yeah, perfect. One thing I love about your website as well, Richard, is once you choose the builder option, there's a. You've done a nice video there which gives a great summary of what the product does as well. So highly recommend the builders checking that out too.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Look, and all the way through, we've got quite a few builders testimonials there, and just information that really helps builders sort of understand how we've arrived where we have. Because getting it. Getting it right is a key thing.

One thing I would say as well, for the members that are listening to this podcast, we do have a training program called Pricing for Profit, which would be really valuable based on a lot of the stuff you've spoken about, too, and it is aligned with your advice today.

Yeah, no, that's great. Look, I'll just mention too, we've got a series of webinars coming up around builders pricing. So there's that and also that approach that I was talking about earlier of charging for that early engagement. We also fold that into our webinars to teach builders how to do it, because it is different. It's a new way of doing things. But I guess the key thing is that it's just making sure that the client gets really good value out of it and the builder gets really good value out of it by establishing themselves as an expert in their field and therefore they become the preferred builder.

Well, that's the thing. And that's one thing we're trying to encourage in the whole industry, is to change that perception of builders. They're a professional service, like a lawyer, like an accountant. I mean, to your point, like, the complexity of building a home is crazy and you don't want to cut any corners with that. So the builders, when they're going through the process of, you know, quoting or even just doing a, you know, a test of a site or something like that to help a consumer go through the journey, that is hugely valuable. And it's. They're an expert that no one else can provide that information for, so they should be charging for it.

Oh, spot on. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And whether you're talking about engineers account, sorry, Accountants, architects, you know, surveyors, whoever. None of them have the. The broad and deep knowledge that a builder has. And, and so, and, and I see this time and time again where builders really do underestimate just how much expertise they have and how important and significant their expertise. Yeah. If there was a magic pill that could sort of help builders understand how good they actually are at what they do, I think it'd be worth a lot.

Definitely. Well, Richard, thanks so much for coming on Professional Builder Secrets today. I've really enjoyed having a chat about pricing.

That's wonderful, Will. Thank you. I really appreciate it. It's great to have a bit of a chat and. Yeah, it's good of you.

Yeah, very good. And for all the listeners out there, I highly recommend checking out Procalc. Whether it's through our rewards program on the APB website or going to Richard's website as well. There's tons of free resources. They're always doing live trainings and things like that to help you better manage your pricing strategy. Also, a big thank you to our listeners wherever you are in the world. If you like the show today, please subscribe to Professional Builders Secrets on your platform of choice. And if you're feeling generous, leave us a review. But until next time, have a great day.