17. Building A Winning Team With Jacob Oelofse

This is Professional Builder Secrets, the number one podcast to help you grow your building company safely and securely. Brought to you by the association of Professional Builders. Join us every week as we talk to industry experts and your fellow professional builders on everything you need to know to generate more leads, more sales and higher margins while improving the building experience for your clients. Hello and welcome to the Professional Builder Secrets podcast, a podcast by the association of Professional Builders for building company owners, general managers, VPs and emerging leaders. Here we discuss all things running a professional building company from sales, processes, financials, operations and marketing. Hello and welcome. Today I'm joined by Jacob Olofsa, executive business coach and mentor for the association of Professional Builders. Jacob, welcome and thank you for being here.

Thanks, Bosco. I'm looking forward to this for quite a while now, so it's glad to be on with you.

Well, Jacob, let's start off with a little bit about you. Tell me a little bit about your background and how you got to doing what you do today.

Yeah, it's actually quite an interesting journey. You asked us before we started, what's the accent? So born in South Africa, so always been an entrepreneur at heart. Started my businesses when I was quite young when I enjoyed the coaching and mentoring world, as they would call it. That was quite about 14, 15 years ago. So specialized a lot in marketing and sales as well as the team side of things. So building a team and yeah, so I've always been in business since a young age and actually progressed into business coaching and advising a couple of years back. But it was a natural journey. It was never part of the plan. It actually just evolved as I was involved in my own businesses, a lot of guys started asking me for advice and then it evolved into what I'm doing today as a full time executive coach. So quite an interesting journey.

What compelled you to join the association of Professional Builders and pick the building industry specifically? Did you come from this industry or did you just have a passion for it?

Yeah, actually I've got a trade, so I'm a locksmith by trade. So my dad's a boilermaker, so I got involved in that summer. I was not too keen on boilermaking, but I did my business degree and then went into trade as a locksmith. Worked a bit there and then I said no, the business side is where my strengths lie. And when we moved as a family to Australia, I got involved with the APB and it's just we sing from the same hymn book is maybe the South African. As we're quite to the point. Builders are to the point they get things done. So I think there was a natural attraction to it and, and I love the industry. It's just wonderful to see the physical something being built, but also the business side of. It's just this nice synergy between the two elements of a building coming up, but also the business itself building itself into this new organism. It's quite a, quite an exhilarating experience if you, if you can see the growth happening in front of you.

Are there any differences, I'm just curious between the builders in South Africa and the builders in Australia or is it sort of similar similarities that occur more in the industry?

I would say human behavior quite similar. They're quite, quite direct to the point, want to get things done sometimes a little bit. They not patient as the average person would be. But the big difference I picked up in the two industries from country to country was a lot more, how can I say, organized and structured. In Australia, where South Africa, the rules are a bit slack so safety is not the same standards there. But the quality, I mean the quality is quite, quite similar. Quality builders, quality trades that are there, the guys are very good at what they do and they quite specialize, same as on this side in Australia. And even the guys I talked to New Zealand as well, you can see the commonality. There's a lot of South Africans actually in Australia and New Zealand doing their thing there. So it was quite nice to meet some of them already.

Now coaching is a different beast off its own. It takes a lot of energy. There's a lot of work that goes into it. I have a lot of appreciation for it as I've spent a lot of time in this area. What do you love the most when it comes to the work you do? Especially today working with builders?

Yeah, I think it's that one on one moments, the conversations you have when you have that breakthrough. And it's difficult, especially when you mentor or coach somebody. It's not a walk in the park for you as the coach and for the person that's your client that you're taking on this journey. It's a vulnerable moment. You need to actually open up and say, listen, I'm not good at this or I need improvement here. And it's just taking the hand on that journey. But then when you overcome a specific obstacle and they can both look back and say, oh, I remember three, four months ago, that was the objective and you've achieved it. And it's challenging, but it's also fun at the same time. But I think that's what makes the difference is seeing when you look back the 2000s, okay, this is how we've overcome a challenge and it's just fun to see that along the way. And some are quick, some are not so quick. It takes more time to get that achievement. But it's a fun journey. It's that journey that makes it fun.

Take me through a day to day snapshot of what you do. I was just curious as far as the type of work and what can builders expect your life to look like on a professional level too?

Yeah, well I think we touched on that a little bit earlier as well off the call, but it's quite interesting. An average day of me is obviously interacting one on one with my clients, my private mentoring clients. So that's on average I would do about three to four calls. I want to keep it fresh. I don't want to overwork myself in one day. I want to give my best. So I limit myself to three or four one on one calls. There's a lot of internal training that takes place. If we want to improve a business, we need to be on point so we keep abreast of industry things, the techniques we use, our protocols and procedures. At the apb. There's a lot of training we recommend so you need to be on top of that as well. So it's a lot of retraining yourself but it's also a lot of team efforts. We're quite widely spread across the world. We've got coaches in Canada and us in Australia and our team is quite widespread. So there's a lot of team meetings that take place every day. We have a team huddle as coaches learn from each other. Best practice that's happening but also just in that there's a lot of administration behind the scenes. After a one on one coaching call, I actually have to go and do a bit of homework to guide my, my client that I worked with on. Go and do a bit more homework on this. Well, actually a good, good example is I do a lot of stalking. So if we're doing marketing, I go and stalk the activity on the marketing and, and give them good constructive feedback and say listen, it looks great or no, we need to improve it. So it's a lot of back end stuff. It's not just the face to face that takes place on a daily basis. There's a lot of background work as well.

Someone very insightful once said marketing is the only place where stocking is appropriate. I guess. So I think that's, I think you have permission to do that. What are some of the pain points that you hear from the builders that you work with? I mean, it must be pretty fascinating speaking to different builders from all over the world and hearing some of the problems. But is there a common denominator of some of these problems or root problems?

Yeah, I definitely picked it up. Is probably. There's probably one, two, maybe a third one that I can put in there. But the first one is definitely is that constraint of time. They always have this challenge of there's only X amount of hours in the day and they're trying to get all of this done. And then that's linked to that is the letting go element. So they know they time poor. And now they've joined this machine we call the APB and they're part of it and we start mentoring and coaching them. It starts with mindset of you need to let go of some of these elements in the business if you want to see the business grow. So the time poor element always comes to the fore. But it's also basics. They're very good at building a nice house for a client and the finishing is good, the carpentry is excellent, all the trade work is there. But then when you go back home, the business side of it or sit in the office, then they realize they fall short is analyzing the numbers. So finance always comes up. It's interpreting the numbers and there's a stigma that the accountants make it a bit complicated sometimes and we just make it simple, just get it in there. So it's almost a fear of the numbers and sometimes even what the numbers will tell them. They're a bit afraid to see the real thing that's in their business. And they realize that, oh, my cash flow looks good, but it's actually not that healthy. So we do go into that time poor financials and then then just a holistic approach of the systemization of the business. They're not sure where to start. And when we actually start going into it, it's literally just taking what's in their head and putting it on paper or putting it into a company manual or some form of a document that is not reliant on them anymore. And it's quite difficult. The how part of is that writing it down, Do I scribe it out? Do I ask somebody to sit next to me and video me doing it? So it's just the how part of getting it out of the head. But once it's done, it's magical. When they start actually seeing the magic of now, it's not in their hands. The work starts happening without them being present. It's a beautiful thing.

Now, one of the themes of today's conversation is about building a winning team and how crucial it is for builders. Let's start off with the common challenges that come with building that winning team. And how do you know when you have a team that needs work or a dysfunctional team, or how do you know you have a successful team?

So for me it's always right back at the beginning. We start with what is the actual position or the org chart position of the business at the start. So we just map out what's currently happening because there's a bit of dynamics, internal team subcontractors, your outsourced skills, like bookkeepers, qss. A lot of guys outsource those skills and the buck still starts with them. So we start there. So draw up a current org chart, what's happening there and then project the future and say, okay, in the future, what would you like that org chart to look like? So building the team is multi leveled. It's not just a, how can I say, it's a one arrow that I shoot in the business and it fixes the team elements of it. Because there's also the way that you as the owner would like things to be done on site in the office and that's building that culture with it. So it's identifying what is it that you want to see on site, what is it that you want to see happening in the business as if you are there. And we talk about this quite often in our coaching sessions. It's building a culture and it comes into that. The way we make decisions as the owner, we want our staff to do the same. So the common things I pick up usually is finding the right fit culturally. So they find good carpenters or they find good office staff or they find good trades in the business that come up the ranks. But there's a bit of a mismatch with the culture is it's not just about building that home, it's about giving a client an experience when they do it. So it's usually that culture fit. But then there's the fear if I let that guy go, I'm going to have to go back on the tools. So it's always that, that, that balancing act that they're trying to play. There's the owner.

Now owners sometimes, you know, are, are in the business and not necessarily on the business. Sometimes that on its own, you know, trusting people can be a big challenge. But why is it so important for that business owner to invest the time to build a winning team, you know, as they grow the business. Why, why is that so crucial? And why is it something that they need to be paying attention to?

I think the first step is without them knowing it, the owner is sometimes the own barrier to growth for the business. They create that own the ceiling, invisible ceiling that they don't even know is there. And it's not on purpose. They've got the best intentions. They want to keep quality conversations with the clients going, quality on work on site and the build itself. But identifying that in the sense of what's in my head, if I put it out on paper, that becomes easy to delegate. So the moment, the way I do a specific task, from paying an invoice, costing a job, right through actually talking to the client, if I can get it out of my head into a system, and then that system becomes something I can measure a staff member on, that makes the process easier to delegate, but it also, it takes away the fear of I'm actually letting go of something in my business. And it's, it's this winning team is. Now I can measure them. I can say, but this is how I do it. Let's set up a KPI next to it. So now I can actually employ an admin support person to do all the costing and pricing for me in my business, or I can actually, with confidence, spend money on employing a good Qs in my business. But I've got a way that I do it and they improve the system. So it's something that we consistently work on as the owner and my employee and my staff and building that team. But it comes also down to trust. So that whole process of looking for staff and then hiring them is you need to move away from the conventional. The average way of just hiring somebody has changed. You can't just jump in and say, I want a good carpenter needs to be able to have five, six years experience. He comes onto the team and he becomes this, this poison in the team. Then it actually starts not, not giving the progress you want in the build and the company itself. So it's, it's a delicate process, but it's, it's systemization that's part of this whole sequence.

And you talk about systemization and being a delicate process. I'm assuming you gradually build a team over time.

Yep.

I remember there was a time for me when I was speaking around the world and my winning team was my barber, my accountant, and my lawyer. Those are like the three people that I needed. Wherever I was Going, yeah, take me through of a building team. What are some of those really important roles that you should consider having that are most crucial before you get the rest of the team? What are some of those critical roles that you're looking to fill out?

I think if we look at the business side, first of all is your office support. So even if it's a basic admin function support person that's in there, that's switched on and know what they're doing. It alleviates you from the mundane tasks and not knocking anybody in the admin world. But their job is of such a nature that it's repetitive and sometimes the owners at 10 o', clock, 11 o' clock at night doing something that's a 25, $30 rate per hour that they can easily outsource. So that's the start is always look at admin function that just steals a lot of your time and then the extension of you on site. So it's looking for the good supervisor that can take over running some of the jobs for you. And also the trades. I mean, don't forget about the trades. These, most of the builders I've worked with, they started at that level. They would have carpenter themselves, moved up to leading hand, moved up to supervisor, then the owner or working for somebody at that level and then jumping over to starting their own building company. So it's good trades that you can rely on that will do the job right the first time. That's the basis good supervisors that can drive the team to achieve more builds in a year. So you want to grow that revenue. So that's important. And then I would say fundamentally might be internal or external is a good financial support like bookkeeper or accountant. A lot of guys employ an internal bookkeeper that I work with and they. They just the compliance part of the accountant. They outsource. But it's vital because they keep the eyes on the pulse of the business. So you need to have those four pillars around you.

Now is there a magic process or formula that you coach your clients when it comes to building a winning team? Where do I. Let's just say I own a building company. Where do I go? Where do I start? How do I start?

Yeah. Okay, so I'm going to be a bit biased. It's joining us at the APB first and just going through the basics. It's starting at the foundations. It's what are you expecting from the business? And ask that question and say at the moment I'm wearing all the hats, I'm wearing the marketing, the Sales, the construction, the hr, the finance hat. So which one of those. And we do a time task analysis. We actually say which one of these tasks are you spending a lot of time in? And once you go into that and say, okay, so you're spending a lot of time on financial and admin tasks, which ones do you love but you're not good at? And which ones do you loathe? But you can do it, but you just don't like doing it. And that's where we usually start to identify what's the time robbers in your business. And you start there. That's where the first high you make is. Get back two, three hours, a week or a day if you can possibly. Because that means you can focus on the area of the business where your actual strength is lying, negotiating a new contract, making sure the build is on time. And it's usually just that time task exercise we do with them over two, three weeks and you quickly pick up a trend of you're spending five, six hours every night quoting where if you hire somebody that would actually alleviate your stress and you sleep better and you'll be more productive in the team on a daily basis.

Now, you alluded to time and you also talked about billing as well. When it comes to measuring some of these things, what are some critical measurements or KPIs that you encourage builders to look at to identify that they are actually having a sufficient team that's performing well?

Well, I think the start point for me when starting to develop the KPIs is it realistic measurement tools, first of all. So it should not be a task that you actually go and micromanage somebody. It's more end result driven. So we look at KPIs is if it's a conversion rate in sales, for example, I've employed a salesperson in my team and I start measuring their KPIs over a specific period of time. Good quality leads are coming in. How long does it take them to convert a lead? Am I being realistic? A building lead takes quite longer than the average lead to convert than your normal conventional retail. So it's not buying a cap on the Internet that is an instant sell. So it's measuring the realistic with a position in mind and also having regular intervals of actually doing a performance evaluation on that specific KPI that you've done. So it's less is more in this action. That's where I want to go with this. When you start measuring your staff and you actually look at the KPIs, it's not about 20 KPIs. It's about a means to an end. So if they follow the process, if the four major KPIs are achieved, you know, by default, all the other smaller tasks would have been done in the first place. So it's, it's about. There's no golden thread, unfortunately, or a magical pull we can swallow and say, okay, that's how you're going to measure it. It's very personalized. It's a customized approach that you want to take for your business and link that to the goals that you've set.

I'm surprised you didn't say that. The coach is one of the most critical roles to fill up in the winning team first, because it sounds like the builders sometimes can live in an isolated world, being at the top of the food chain and then not having anyone to talk to or confide in, a sort of mentor. I would assume that some of your role also involves therapy for business owners as well.

You know, I think to a certain extent it does. Maybe it's my South Africanness that came through there that says get the work done and you're part of the team. But I do agree with you, we play a vital role in it. And one of my members actually today in a previous coaching session, had a bit of a joke and said he told his wife, from now on, he's not reporting to her, he's reporting to me from now on. And we had a bit of a chuckle. But it comes also about teamwork and accountability. So I see my role as the coach, as part of the team, but it's also the analogy of teaching them to fish. So I am working myself out of a position in the next 12 to 18 months for them to be sustainable. But what I've also picked up is then that's a new level in the business. So then my role will change from teacher to almost being the partner and getting them to the next level of the business. So it's also, as the business evolves with me as their coach or their mentor, I actually evolve with them as well. So it's the next level we go into. And I've got internal KPA's I measure myself against with them. So we do play a vital part of that team. But it's, I think, the key element when you embrace a coach or approach somebody like us to help you in your business. It's a team effort. So it's a commitment from both elements. And it's hard work. The owners know it's not easy. There's difficult conversations along the way, but it's a safe space to do that. So when they talk to you, I'm not one of the staff, they can actually rant a little bit. So there might not be full psychological sessions happening there, but there is a moment of, listen, I think you need to just. Just let it out, talk for five minutes, get it off your chest, and then let's get down to business. And there are moments like that. And also when it comes to stress, there's nobody else in the team that they can talk to. So a lot of times it becomes the wife or the partner or the brother that's in the business, and sometimes they don't want to take it there. Then it comes to us, so it's quite important. But then you can also bring reality back to them and say, give them a genuine perspective of, okay, that's a bit emotional. Let's take the emotion out of it. Reality actually is, this is what happened in your business. And they're like, oh, thanks for being honest. Honest. Because none of their staff would be honest. They're just too scared to lose their job. They won't tell the boss you're wrong or the owner of the company that what they're doing is not the right way. So that happens from time to time. Yes.

And I guess sometimes your role includes telling the owners what they need to hear, not necessarily what they want to hear as well.

Yes. And actually it's part of our orientation or onboarding, couple of coaching sessions with them where we actually sensitize them. To say most of the things in the first couple of months, I tell you, is not to break you down, it's actually to build you up. And it might not be what you want to hear. It might be that you've been doing something for 10 years and now we come along and show you a better way. And it's change. And I know most of our members, if they go through that phase of change, it's a bit of resistance, but we sensitize them. And actually, I've got a bit of a thing that I do with most of my members. I ask permission. I ask them permission. Listen, I've got a little coaching hat somewhere here. Can I put it on? It's time to be honest with you because you need to hear it. You can see them gringe in the beginning of the statement, and at the end they say, thank you for sharing, that I never knew, or now I can work on it. So it's little moments between coaching that happens that forms a good relationship. With them as well.

What is the state of the residential industry, I guess evolving to? It's a question I always like to ask all my guests because everyone has a different perspective. But in your take, being so close to the front lines, next to the builders, what is the state evolving to and what should builders be preparing for?

I think the say, short to midterm evolvement that I see there is, there is a bit of panic happening at the moment. A lot of guys are they so unsure about even three months from now. There's so many variables happening and there's a lot of elements that's involved in that supplying issues, staffing, all of those things, but it creates a bit of panic. But what I also see is a lot of the builders that we interact with at the apb, they actually are a little bit more optimistic about the mid to long term. They see it as a, okay, but now our clientele, the market will see the professional builders actually standing out and not falling over. And if you survive through this. So my take on it, what I can see in the mid to long term is yes, there will be unfortunately a lot of builders that are not going to be around in the next two to three years, but it also is a big eye opener for the guys that are there and say what am I doing to prevent that and what am I actually planning for for the next five to 10 years in my business? And we cannot stand by, especially as the APB and as a coach and say, well you should have known that we also need to educate them. So I pick it up and like you said earlier, I sometimes need to be firm and say if we don't change this, this is what could happen. So as a general thing with our pickup in Australia, New Zealand specifically, is guys have become accepted. They as the owners, they accept that things take a bit longer than normal and they have to adapt. So, so normally things take three weeks, now it takes eight weeks and just to get an approval takes longer. So it's little things that were seen as just, that's how it's supposed to be, as open their eyes to say, wait a minute, I need to plan better. My project planning needs to be upskilled. The way I approach every client should be the sense of I need to service them as best as I can because at the moment there's enough clients, but in two years time there might not be enough clients for me to service. So it's just that balancing act of, of realization, sitting in and planning for that.

Has there ever been a moment where You've discovered something that's really surprised you about the industry or builders. In your years of coaching and your illustrious career working side by side with builders, what surprised you the most about the industry?

I think the biggest surprise, and I get it from time to time, probably not with all of my private clients that I work with, but there was a couple. It's almost a fear of success. It's almost like they too scared to be successful because the average builder around them is they just making ends meet, feeding their family, looking after their friends or employing some of their friends. Boys come to work for them as a carpenter or something. And it's almost like there's this mental block that comes in and it's maybe linked to a generation as well. A lot of the builders are a bit older in the years, but I work with a lot of the younger builders, the same thing. It's almost frowned upon to be a successful builder because there's this industry stigma that if you're a successful builder, that guy's a shark who is a cowboy. He's been doing some people in to make the millions, but I've met so many of them that's genuinely good builders, good people and successful businessmen. So it's just that I find that quite surprising that I interact with guys, that there's still that block in their minds that I'm not allowed to be genuinely successful as a builder because the perception of the industries has been there for so many years. So it's still surprising to get that. Maybe it's just from my perspective, because I see a lot of guys that are actually doing a good job and being successful, but I still get that from time to time.

What do you think is the biggest blind spot for builders today? What should they be aware of or prepare for, where something can be easily overlooked when it comes to running a.

Successful business, I think the biggest blind spot is understanding their numbers. And that goes right through from the margin, the markup, right through to the actual cash flow position. A lot of guys get caught out, and I want to use this term with their pants down, because they. It happens even in the coaching. I'll just ask one question and then that doubt starts to set in. Is that really 24%? Is that really 12%? And then they have to start asking them some questions and it's something that they need to see as a serious part of their business because it catches you off guard. And yes, it affects cash flow, yes, it affects your tax, but it's also the numbers in your business tells you Am I actually progressing where I wanted to go in the first place? So a lot of guys, they just want to do a good structure. They want to build a nice, beautiful home for their client on time, finish it before Christmas, that type of feeling. But they're doing it at the expense of their own health, at the expense of their own business. And two years later they realize, well, I've been doing this for so long for no reason. I've been building homes at less than my profit margin and I'm actually losing money every time I pick up a piece of timber or brick to put it in the house. So it is a blind spot and unfortunately there's a lead and a lag measure. So you only pick this up when it's almost too late. So it's better to start quite early in the process. And I picked that up a lot with the coaching is that it frustrates them, but I hammer them on their numbers first. Let's know what happened in the past, then I can show you the real picture of the last 24 months in your business. Now let's stop doing that and move forward to doing something better.

They say that success is the love language of a coach because that's what you end up working on and driving people towards. So what are some successful habits of successful builders that you encourage, preach, or more importantly, observe with some of the successful clients you've had?

I think it's probably the first thing is being inquisitive about your own business, asking more questions and not just accepting the answers you're getting. And it's one of, I think of our APB's principles as well. How we approach things is you trust but you verify. So that should be one of your things. And a couple of the builders I work with, I pick this up quite a lot. The more questions they ask the team, even themselves, is like, is this actually correct what I've just done? Is the numbers making sense? Is it going to work on my planning for the new build I want to start next three months. Is everything on track for that? Have I planned well ahead of it? And another habit that I pick up is besides being inquisitive about your own business, is also being forward thinking. A lot of guys are not, they're not focused too much on the now because they know that's an effect of something you did six to 12 months ago. They always look forward, what's happening in the next year, what's happening in the next three years of my business because we know the building industry is Quite. It's a long process to sign a client on. To complete the project takes a much longer time than the average build. Now three months, six months build doesn't seem long. It's a long time for something to fall into place to get that contract signed. So it's the forward thinking and the ability to see what's coming around the corner three years from now. And then I would say the last thing is planning. It's always consistently planning, going back to the plan, re evaluating it and knowing that it's not set and cast in stone. You have to adapt according to conditions. And a good example would have been a couple of months ago when the guys here in the Sydney region had the snap lockdown that they had. They had to be on point with, okay, how are we going to navigate this situation? So very interesting elements, but I see the success there is definitely in planning as well.

For the builders out there that are not members of the association of Professional Builders or you know, for the builders that have just got into this industry, don't have someone to reach out or don't have the network or people to confide in with, you know, within the space, what critical advice can you give them outside of joining the apb? What critical advice can you give them to utilize for their business today?

I think first of all, surround you with like minded people. Go and don't be afraid to go and talk to a lot of people. Call them their competitors. Go and talk to the builder that's in your local town. Go and talk to the builder that's in your area and ask for advice. You'll be surprised how many builders want to see other builders success and be successful because they probably can't even take on more work because they're doing so well. So they don't mind to help out. So start with that inner circle close to you and then obviously, I mean use the resources that's available that we're doing now. Podcast is there, listen to it, absorb it, but read a lot and you'll be surprised. As a builder, some of them, I don't need to read a book. I know what I'm doing and it's not about building a better home. Go and read a book about yourself, what your mindset should be as an owner of a business and generalize it in the beginning. Just inform yourself as a business owner and then gradually say, okay, but so in my building company, what can I do more? And that's now when you start reaching out to apb, to your local associations and start, start with the community, the building community that you have and talk to them and again associate yourself with guys that are already doing it and being successful. Usually successful people don't mind sharing because they're not scared to share success. So it's not going to these cowboys in the industries and seeing what they do to cut down the numbers. It's go to the guy that you know successful and most probably they'll already be part of the APB in any case. So it might be one of the default situation there. But reach out to that local guys around you.

What advice do you have for someone who might have a team member that isn't playing along or is a bad apple? Do you believe in the philosophy of hire slow fire fast? What is your thought process around that?

You're hitting a special note. In my experience, even as a business owner, I've always firmly believed in that philosophy of you hire slow fire fast and, and be open with that with your, with your staff that you hire to say listen, it might not even be personal, it might just be that you're not a good fit for the business culturally or your skill set. I can always teach you something new. That's not the problem. 90% is a cultural fit. So why poison the water if I can call it that with somebody that's not a good fit and it might not be on purpose, but definitely hire slow fire fast and gamify the hiring process. Don't make it this mundane. Send us an email, go through 500 interviews and then pick the top 10 and then hire them. Gamify the hiring process, make it fun for you as well during the process because that's when the real people start to come out and, and make it interesting for them as well to apply. You know, at the apb we do it in, in that way is when you join the team. It's not just send the email, send your invoice, your, your CV and then you get hired or fired. It's also a process of going along. But I must add a little bit of a note here is also look at when the person joins that you make sure that they come into something that they are set up for success. So have a training plan, an onboarding plan in place for them because then you're setting them up for success. You can't expect them to know what to do when they walk in the door and there's nothing prepared for them. So it's a two way street as well. But definitely I agree with that term. A lot of people will disagree, but higher Slow fire, fast is definitely the best way.

Jacob, what do you have to say to people that go, but Jacob, I don't have a recruiting plan. I don't know how to recruit or onboard. I'm not an HR manager. What solution do you have or what response do you have to that common excuse?

So, yeah, that's a good one. A lot of guys, they are the HR manager, they put on that hat and they start hiring people. And I would say definitely, first of all, talk to your industry specialist, even if it's just advice, and say, what is the average way or what's the best way to advertise this specific position? Because I usually pick up it's the not so familiar positions. How do you advertise an admin role? How many hours do they work? What's the average rate to do it? And yes, there's desktop research, but. But I would definitely say invest a couple of bucks in it, speak to a professional. You don't have to hire them to do it. But even if it's just a consultation, start there and then also look at your industry and look at your industry bodies. What are they telling you? And I know at the apb, we've got a nice horsey report coming out every year that actually gives you a good insight to it. So again, what is the average in your area? Where do you start? What is it that the common industry is doing or the builders around you are doing? But it starts by reading and informing yourself and then reaching out to a professional. Remember, this is there's a contract that will be signed at some point. So start with the resources around you, but also reach out to a professional, even if it means investing a bit of money to talk to somebody that knows the legalities and the ins and outs of the industry.

You have a very impressive bookshelf behind you, which tells me that you probably spent a lot of time reading. And so my final question, I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation, but my final question for you today is, is what has really impacted your career in the language of books? So looking at the books behind you, has there been a book in particular that has either shaped your career or is something that you're reading that you find really fascinating right now?

I must say it's a book I read quite, I would say probably seven, eight years ago, and it's the Richest man in Babylon. So it's quite an interesting book. I actually read it a couple of times, probably four or five times, but the principle stuck with me. It's about even running a business is. Money is important in the business, but it comes down to the principles of how you perceive money. And when you start changing your attitude about that as a builder, even you start looking at this from am I worth taking on this specific project in the first place? And it's not about the money anymore. It's okay, now I'm making good money. What then? What do I do? What's the legacy I leave behind for my family, for my business, for my staff? So Richard Manning Babylon made a big impact in me when I started my business, and it actually set me up for good success to sell it at the end of the day because it was a systemized machine that somebody just took over, you know, so it was a, it was a nice experience, but it started with, with that book and it was the laws of Money and how it actually involves you and the principles in life and business. So it was a very, very interesting read.

Jacob, it's been a pleasure having you on the episode. I've learned a lot about your coaching world and the work that you do, and I hope our builders enjoy the insights when it comes to building a winning team. Thank you so much for your time today.

No, thanks so much, Bosco. I enjoyed it and looking forward to the next one. Hopefully soon.

Cheers. Thank you for listening. Remember to subscribe to Professional Builder Secrets on your favorite podcast platform and leave a review. To learn more about how the systems at the association of Professional Builders can help you grow your building company, visit associationofprofessionalbuilders.com See you next time.