174. Marketing Homes That Don't Exist With Alannah Silva

Welcome to another episode of Professional Builder's Secrets. In this episode, I interview alana silva from boxbrownie.com Alana and her team are transforming the way builders showcase their projects with high quality 3D renders. These tools not only help your clients visualize their dream homes before they're built, but they also tap into that emotional side of buying decisions, giving you a competitive edge in the market. Listen to the episode to discover how this technology can help you sign more contracts and deliver a better client experience. This episode of Professional Builder Secrets is brought to you by Apparatus Contractor Services. Apparatus provides full scope, end to end QuickBooks, Precision Construction accounting and CFO services for residential builders. If you feel like you can't completely trust your weekly and monthly financial reports or you feel like you're flying blind, Apparatus Root will rebuild and operate your QuickBooks accounting system and give you precision construction accounting capability you can trust. Learn more@apparatus team.com or on the APB Rewards Partner Directory.

A lot of the times I see builders use an exterior render and a floor plan and that's great because you kind of get to see like a 3D floor plan of everything and you get to see the exterior and that's really good when you are doing renders on a budget. But then the great thing about it is you can use it with your clients, but you can also use it in marketing. Marketing as well. And so being able to showcase your expertise online I think is really vital as well. And how can we actually leverage our technologies without spending too much money to actually make your expertise shine through? And that's what we want to do with vendors, is not only showcase the property, but also you as the builder.

Welcome to Professional Builder Secrets, the podcast for building company owners wanting to grow safely and securely. I'm your host, Will Blunt, and today I'm joined by Alana Silva. Alana, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so stoked to be here. So, yeah, thanks Will.

Yeah, awesome to have you on. I'm really excited to talk about what we're chatting about today, which is 3D virtual renders. But before we dive into the details on that topic, can you let all the listeners know a bit more about yourself and what you do?

Yeah, of course. So my name is Alana Silva and I have the privilege of working for BoxBrowny.com I am originally from Brisbane, Australia, but I currently live in London, but I'm currently in the States. So my big thing is, where in the world am I? And my mom Usually keeps up track with LinkedIn. So that's kind of where she's like, oh, there's work day here this week. But I guess a little bit about foxbody.com we like to think of the industry leader in property marketing, which is a big title to have, but basically we offer cutting edge solutions to real estate and building professionals worldwide. So, so our innovative solutions really kind of are trying to make it easier for people to have access to high quality editing services to really showcase properties to the fullest potentials. So this could be anything from, you know, in the builder space, from simple image enhancement and iron removals to virtual staging right up until 3D renders. So anything, whether it's a photo or maybe it hasn't been brought to life, that's kind of what we specialize in. And this is kind of why we connect with so many builders because we do offer such a range of digital solutions they can leverage to get high quality marketing regardless of the stage of the build. So whether it's pre sale, whether we've started construction or whether we're post constructions. So it's an Australian based company based out of Maroochy Door in Australia. I love, love, love getting Americans to say Maroochy Door. It's like my favorite thing in the entire world because they just have no idea. And I meet so many and they're like, where are you from? I'm like, maroochy Door. And they're like, what? So yeah, still Australian based and we have about 200,000 clients in about 120 different countries. So it's been really of getting the world out there, anywhere in the world can use us, which is I think such a bonus for people.

Cool, Good summary. You've also obviously said that a few times to people at conferences and everything.

Yeah, it's usually like, I feel like I then kind of disassociate a little bit when I say it because I like just have to hit the key points. But you know, sometimes I'll like subconsciously say it in a different way and then I'm like, oh no. I'm like, my mind's like, wait, what did you say? But yes, we do say it quite a bit. We go to about, I mean last year we went to about 55 conferences just in the States. This year was only 17. So we do get to connect with people kind of worldwide, which is my favorite part of this job. It's like my dream job because I get paid to go overseas and like hang out with builders, which is great.

Well, we can dive into what Box Browning does a little bit more later on in the conversation. But what I think what the listeners really care about is what problem are you trying to solve with these 3D renders and the editing software for builders? Like what is it helping them do?

Yeah, I think it's such a. I do think especially with virtual renders and 3D renders they're really kind of the importance in the last five years now it's kind of a must have. I think the problem that it solves that I see and kind of I deal with with builders is kind of there's three main ones. So the first one is it actually helps solve visualization challenges. So when you're, you know, planning something and you're trying to think what do I want to put in watch room? Or if you've got like a niche space, renders are actually great at helping to bring to life that space so you can actually see it before you even kind of, you know, start digging. And, and that's when it gets expensive. You know, whether you have like I know an example that we have where they came to us wanting a render and they had this barn door underneath the stairs because they didn't want, you know, that underneath nook to show. But when they brought it to life it was really cluttered and that is really expensive door that they ended up saving money on because they just didn't put it in and just built in cupboards and it looked so much nicer because it was like really open. So I think being able to know just do that before you start construction kind of makes those changes now to make the less delays and also save you a bit of money is an important one. The second one can be marketing off the plan can be really, really tough. Renders solve the problem of how do I market something that doesn't actually exist. You know, that's when we talk about renders. People are often using them to pre sell houses. You know, whether it's the same house over and over again or whether it's a new spot but you want to actually try and pre sell market it, that's terrific as well. And both of them lead to the most important factor of that emotional buy in. It's amazing how you know how much you fall in love with a property based on a render. So you know, plans can often feel really cold and transactional. I don't know how much exposure the everyday person has. Dual floor plan, but it's really hard to see, you know, and really hard to fall in love with because you're looking at stairs, whereas maybe if you're looking at render and this beautiful staircase and it's well lit and there's a chandelier there. I dream big when I think of like, I dream of my future house. So if I go a little bit rogue with what I'm dreaming, dreaming, it's just, you know, it's a dream. We're all allowed to dream. So I think those one as well, like rent is really actually can help people fall in love and that's what you really want to do. They're not going to be able to fall in love when they arrive the property because by the time they arrive, it's probably already built and they probably already own it. So you want to. How do you emulate that when it's not being built?

Yeah, it's interesting. I think, like some of the things you explain there is probably helpful for people doing renovations or buying and selling homes and that kind of stuff. From a builder's perspective. What I'm imagining is like during the sales process is if they can help the customer visualize what it might look like at the end. And it sounds like they can make decisions around certain, you know, changes and things like that. Visually, I think that's going to have a huge impact on the early stages of a sales process. But how does like, how much information do they need to build out a render like that so they can have that impact?

Yeah. So with our renders, typically it's the CAD or the PDF files. CAD is always king. Same with dwg, just because it's easier for modelers to work with. And rough, like a rough design board, if you've got the exact specifics of what you want to create, great. If you don't, we just kind of need a rough design board or the landscaping plan or even some fixtures and finishes and then we can kind of build it from there. Different render companies work in different ways. And that's why I think technology is so incredible, because there are so many companies out there and you can kind of find one that actually works best with you and your marketing team. But being able to, you know, even just take something as like the floor plans and a rough mood board and turning it into like a furnished almost like photo is such an incredible way, like you said, of getting those, you know, it's not there and, you know, not everyone has a luxury of having like a show home or a design center that they can come to. So being able to show that as well really kind of helps with those Objections of what if? Or this is really expensive. I don't know. You just get them to fall in love with it.

How else are you seeing builders use the renders in their sales and marketing strategies?

Well, it really depends. So I think it really comes down to do they have that show home. But I think a lot of the times I see builders use it, exterior render and a floor plan. And that's great because you kind of get to see like a 3D floor plan of everything and you get to see the exterior. And that's really good when you are doing renders on a budget. And that's the great thing about where we are right now is there is like an option for every budget. So you don't have to be spending tens of thousands of dollars on this. You really can have, like different options that suit you. So that's kind of like the option one. Option two, and the one that we love to see is interiors as well. So people often forget that interior is actually the biggest selling point of the house. So when people are looking at buying a house, they're looking at the kitchen and the primary bedroom. They're the two factors we see. So option two is almost like an exterior, and then one or two interiors can make them fall in love and that floor plan. But then you've got the options where if it's the same house you're selling over and over again, maybe you're getting all the key spots. Two exteriors, the floor plan, and maybe a 360, because you know you're going to use it again. Again, it really comes down to how they're using it. So is it, you know, spec home or is it house we're maybe going to sell multiple times, or is it actually something that we're just doing the one time, so we want a smaller purpose? But then the great thing about is you can use it with your clients, but you can also use it in marketing as well. And so being able to showcase your expertise online I think is really vital as well. And people forget that. You know, I look at real estate listings all the time, and when the new build listings come up and they're not great, it actually makes me question. I'm like, okay, is there something wrong with this property if there's only one photo or like one floor plan? Like, how can we actually leverage our technologies without spending too much money to actually make your expertise shine through? And that's what we want to do with renders, is not only showcase the property, but also you as the builder.

Yeah, I Think that makes a lot of sense from like a spec builder's point of view, because they've got a lot of repeatable components and stuff. Right. Most of our audience are probably custom home builders, remodelers and things like that. How do you see them using it effectively in their marketing, for example, on their website and stuff like that?

I think it's really like, key as well, being able to show the before and after. So, you know, if you're only doing. It's a custom home and maybe you only want to get one render done just so you can have it for yourself, or if you're actually working with potentially a buyer, like you're working with a client who hasn't. Doesn't have that much experience with new constructions. So being able to reconcile the fact that you may be working with someone who doesn't understand. So we have some custom home builders use it when there's key objections or whether you're trying to prove, hey, actually don't think that kitchen layout works, let's try this. And you're not getting that. You know, when you look at a full plan, it is hard to see. Whereas if you can actually paint the picture with the render as well, and then you can use it for yourself. So people use it on their websites, use on their social medias, compare the render to what happened afterwards as well. That's kind of always a fun. I always, like, love stumbling upon those as well. And then in other instances. Yeah, just really trying to leverage the technologies to overcome those objections.

Yeah, that makes sense. How do you feel like, does it tap into the emotional side of the buyer better than, you know, a floor plan or just a general sales conversation?

Yeah. So selling off the plan, you know, a full plan home really has its challenges in trying to sell the dream, which is what we're trying to do. We're trying to sell someone a dream. And when you present a floor plan, all they see is these lines and the price tags. We're selling the dream. We want them to fall in love with it. So I want people to kind of consider virtual renders as a little bit of a time machine, giving the home buyer a really big glimpse into their future lifestyle. So they can picture themselves hosting family dinners in the kitchen, enjoying that cozy night in the living room, and waking up to the beautifully designed bedroom. So really what we want to do is actually take people into the future. And a vivid realization can really make it easier for buyers to actually see it as their home, which is really the big thing is once they see it as their home, I think they're way more likely to commit or just like agree. And that can, that's to be said for custom home builders, for some spec home specs as well. Either one of those kind of that emotional buy in is really the thing that gets people across the line when they're having those like criminal crisis. But you know, when they're like debating when I debate my eight bedroom house, like the big thing for me is the price tag, but the render can get me over the way. It's just the bank maybe for me.

Well actually that's a good point. Like the, the pricing that would have been. My next question is like that's a really tricky situation because you can develop this beautiful rendering with everything, all the bells and whistles that someone wants in their, in their home, their eight bedroom house. But they might only have the budget to build a three bedroom house. I mean obviously you wouldn't get to that point building out a render. Eight bedrooms, three bedrooms. But how can a builder really handle that conversation and building out the renders effectively so they're not you know, misleading the client or going down a path where there's this beautiful looking home that they can't build in like under the price that they, they need to.

Well, I think that's the beauty of you know, when you show renders, typically if it's a consultation, it's probably not the first, first thing that people are saying. It's probably like, you know, you've had those conversations so you've kind of qualified them a little bit. But then I also think that, you know, we have this great example and I love it so much. It's a 360 virtual render and what we're able to do with a360 is layer different options. So option one is you can kind of do different layouts. So the cool thing is about it is if you know, we want to show them the full eight bedroom, great, you can. But then you can also change it. And then option two could be this is an open plan layout. It's only maybe got three bedrooms or things like that. So there's actually ways that you can actually stack that technology on with each other. Or you know, maybe we're showing people option A which is the full bells and whistles, but here's option B. It still is cool, but it's actually going to save you. So it really again comes down to your marketing budget. How many times are you using that floor plan? If you're using that floor plan again and Again and again. Maybe we're actually doing the full kit app package where there's option A, option B, option C, whether it's just, you know, you may be only going to sell that house three or four times or it's a custom getting the renders done and in key areas. So then later down the track, if you know, you want to say, oh, I remember that cool property, would something like this actually suit you better? Then you've actually got that render anyway.

Yeah, that's true. I guess it helps you illustrate where they could shift things around to save on cost potentially. Or you know, if they don't want to, if they want to spend as much as they can, then you can also add as much as you.

Yeah, and that's the cool thing about like where we are now is that back in like 10 years ago, maybe 15 years ago, the only people that were able to afford 3D renders were the big, big companies. Right. We've made the technology that's changed means that renders are so much more accessible to everyone and there's different ways to make them better. You know, obviously you're going to pay more for the ones that literally look like a photo. But even if your budget is a 2D option, like our 2D renders at the moment are 96 US. For a 2D render, it takes about two weeks to turn around. And that's obviously it's not 3D, it's. But it's colored in. It does everything that we want to do. The 3D I think is still better because it kind of takes you down that, oh, it's a photo, it's real or that's my driveway type situation. But you know, it makes it accessible to everyone, not just like the big companies that have the budget to be spending millions on renders.

Yeah, yeah, fair enough. What are some of the challenges from getting that realistic looking render so that you know, it does actually have all of the benefits that you've been talking about?

There's one also changes with technology. So in 2024 I can kind of give you some tips. I do think the biggest challenges we face are time and money constraints because renders are quite expensive, but they can also sometimes be a little bit of a resource strain, especially when you're getting them done for the first time. Working with a new company probably got someone who is really working hard to get these renders perfect. So your time and money is always a big one. Inconsistencies with renders as well, especially if you're not using a Company maybe between different artists as well. They kind of have their different flares. But I would say these are my biggest tips to making renders look the best. So, one, make sure your render is not flat. It's actually quite off putting and can really get kind of people distracted. So when I say a flat render, what comes to mind is I don't know if you've seen, if you guys have that much experience renders, but when you see a render and the landscaping is beautiful and it just looks like the house has been like stuck on like a sticker. So it is just like super flat. Now, flat renders is I guess another way of saying 2D renders. But when the exterior and like, you know, the trees and everything is so lifelike and you've just got this kind of stuck on, it's really off putting and it makes it really distracting because it's a bit like, why, what's going on here? So we want to make sure that there it's. Three, if it's going to be a proper 3D, everything is 3D, not just the background. And then another one is we want to make sure that the scene fits. Now, I'm not going to go into too much like technical detail about renders because one, we know what looks pretty and we don't. Two, I'm not the best person. Like technical renderings, like, I'm good for like the first, like 70%, but that last 30% when it's modeling, it's not me. But we have lots of people at our company that is. But I'm like more of the. Let's talk about the general tips, right? So when we talk about a scene, we want to make sure that everything fits. So like I said earlier, we have clients in 120 different countries, but we're Australian based. I've seen renders in the past where not ours, but I know that that's not, not the right scene because they've got Australian eucalyptus trees and a house that's in like America. I know that those don't exist. We know that those trees don't exist in other countries. They're very specific to say, Brisbane or Sydney, wherever you may be based. So making sure everything in the scene fits. So it could be down to the detail in the landscaping, which is why we like an actual landscaping plan from you. And we also need to know the address if you've got it, because if we can have a rough address, we can actually go and see what the landscaping looks like. So it's a bit of A tip out there for any builders that, you know, may be using spec houses in different locations. You know, a big one pops to mind is maybe Arizona to, say, New York or things like that, their landscaping is going to be very different. So making sure that we can use those renders again, but let's make sure the exterior landscaping fits same as well. You know, you're not going to see too many houses in, say, Brisbane, Australia, have a fireplace. So, I mean, they can, but they're not going to get used much. So that I think they're. They're. My two tips here is in that one and then another big one is people and renders. They're usually more used in commercial real estate as they're kind of really designed to show scale. People are really, really, really hard to model. Like, super hard to model. So that's actually a big giveaway as well. And you know, when you watch, like, movies like, I don't know, it's like the Postman Express or what is it? There's a Christmas movie out there that Tom Hanks starred in, and everyone was like, what's going on? And it's because the faces were so, like, it was trying to mimic a person, but the face wasn't moving the way it's meant to, because we know how humans are meant to interact. So I would say people in renders, unless you're trying to do it for scale or a big kind of residential, commercial purpose, I would say avoid them, where there's also this tale of the same person being used again and again in renders. So that was a big one as well, because she kind of. I think if you type in, like, the Little Red Riding Bag story, it comes up and this. All of these big firms were using the same render company and they were using the same people. So then it kind of popped up in a few as well. So if you're doing residential real estate, I'm going to say in the houses, no people. But that's like a little bone to pick with me. I'm just like, not the. I'm not a people, like a promoter in renders. And then the last one I think, really, really kind of fits to it is the light source. Every object must have a shadow. No. If so. But, you know, if there is a light source, there has to be a shadow because someone's blocking it. There's always like some blockage. So that, I think is a big one that can be kind of taken to virtual staging and things like that as well. Is that light source really Matters. So if you're ever like confused about how does this look? Not 100% natural. I think shadow is a big, big one. Making sure that, you know, the couch has the appropriate shadow. I did say that was the last one, but I do have two more materials and textures as well. So making sure that, you know, if it's a, if it's a brick, we're not making it flat, we are making it a bit rugged. And also the fact that imperfection is kind of perfection in this world. If you make it too perfect and you've got 85 bricks and they're all the exact same, well, that's probably not realistic. We all know that they have kind of slight texture differences and, you know, things like that. So they're kind of, I think the big ones to look out for, really just making sure that there is the light source, I think is like the big one as well. I'll forgive you. If you want to put people in there, that's fine. But yeah, light source and the imperfection is perfection, I think. Are the two big ones.

Yeah. Cool. Just as you were saying that, I think you were essentially answering this question by talking about the detail that you put into a realistic render. But with the way that AI is accelerating and how images are getting generated at such speed and like that's improving day on day on day. Where do you see this space going in the next 12 to 18 months? And how does, how does a realistic render that you're talking about now compare to an AI generated one in the future?

Right now I would say it's not there. And I don't say that because I work for a business that is not AI operated. I say that out of everything I just talked about, about light source and imperfection being perfection. The AI images I've seen for renders, they're pretty cool, but I wouldn't be using them to sell potentially a million dollar house. You know, we're not there at the point of it being a resource like you can leverage for that. I think in 12 to 18 months there will be definitely some advancements. I think where it's going to start is with virtual staging. So virtual staging for people that don't know, is a kind of more of a real estate tool. But how do you stage kind of a photo with fake furniture so you can kind of showcase everything we want to showcase in a render, but it's actually built right. So I think that would be the first one where the technological advancements will kind of catch up with it right now. The light source is a big one. With the AI virtual staging and renders I've seen that's not really there yet. And I think that flatness is not, you know, there's just a few things that right now, right now renders still need a human. That is kind of apparent if they're. I kind of keep my eye up to date with the render companies that are doing AI and they're pretty cool. But again I wouldn't be using maybe in 18 months and you know, AI is going to catch up with us so quickly. So maybe in 18 months will be different story. But for right now, I think for a 3D human edited render, it's not actually that much more expensive than say an AI render right now. So I would be kind of protecting yourself with your marketing right now. But in 18 months I do think it's going to get to a point where this at least the some parts of the design aspect as well. And again I'm not the best person to talk about like the back end for how complicated it is to render something. But it is such a time consuming process. That's why most running companies take two to three weeks if not more because it is so time consuming and really needs this big, big tech behind it and these big drives and everything like that. So I think it's getting there. It will come eventually, but not right now. And if you want to prove me wrong, you'll have my email address. So please. Always down for a conversation where it proves me wrong, but I think right now I'm right.

Yeah, no, I wouldn't disagree. And I think to your point, we don't know 18 months is a long time, especially with how fast it's moving. But we'll watch and see.

Yeah, yeah, we'll watch and see.

Okay, so I guess the question on my lips for the whole interview and I'm sure it's on the builders out there, what does it actually cost to get a 3D render done with box brownie? How long would that take to get done? So the 2D you said was 97 USD. Talk to me about three day.

Yeah, so 3D you're looking at 280 US dollars. So I think that converts to 350 AUD. I do apologize, it's been a while since I've been home. So my Australian pricing is like there but not depends on the 280.

Right, obviously.

But well the good news is is that like we actually don't change it day by day so it stays at that price. Which I would love. Like I said, I live in London and I work for an Australian company. So it'd be really beneficial to me if the banks did that when I got paid. So we're generous. More and more generous than the banks, but yeah. So 280 USD for a 3D render and it can take anywhere between two and three weeks. If you've got more renders in the one project, it will take a little bit longer than that. But what I love about our way of doing it is you get three drafts. So it's a very collaborative process and I do think that actually helps because the end of the day we're trying to bring your vision to life. So the three drafts, the first one is a clay, it's a clay model draft. So basically we want to look at the spacing. How have we done bringing your house to life in terms of the actual model? The second one is kind of a first color, so it's like lightly washed. We've made some changes based on your feedback. And then the third version is just before we actually go put it through the CGI and do like the final finishings. So it's more of like a high definition kind of version of okay, this is what it's going to look like. But we still have to do that last step of actually like doing the final complete render. So that's for a 3D render. We also offer 360 renders, virtual tours. So if you want to do the hotspot as well. And then we also offer 3D floor plans. So what I think I love about what Box Brownie does is, is a la carte. So you very much can pick and choose what options you want. We don't do packaging. Like we can give you a package, but it's just going to basically be like me picking the different options. So it's not like you're locked into a package and it's a pay as you go. So you're not going to have to like sign up to a really expensive render company. And then after one or two, if you say, oh, this actually isn't working for me, that's also fine. So it is designed to be kind of, you guys are at the forefront, we're working with you to bring it to life. Because the other day we're bringing your vision to life. And then what I will say is, what we ask for is, like I said earlier, CAD files are great because it just makes it a bit easier to model. And then a design and a landscaping board. So we Kind of know what to go off. If you want to give us every single detail you can, that's fine, that's perfect. We will bring it to life. If you don't know and you just actually want to see what it looks like based on that, we can work with that as well. We just kind of need a few of those, like rough, like a rough guide and then we can bring it to life that way as well.

Yeah. Cool. I mean, it's a pretty cost effective way to be honest, for a builder to visualize, you know, what they do. Obviously they'll have photography and all that kind of stuff, but in their marketing, if they wanted to get a couple of examples like this done, it would make a lot of sense. And then if they're going to be using in their sales process with actual clients, then just build into the pricing.

Yeah, 100% and you build into pricing. But then like I said earlier, you can actually market yourself pre sale during the construction process as well. And that's where we can tie in photos. We can kind of bring it to life that way or post. And whether that's, you know, whether it's a house, that particular house you're trying to sell or just marketing yourself, I think as well is quite a key one. So, you know, we talk a lot about how photos and your online presence really actually ties back to your expertise and flair as a builder. And so, you know, if you are building these, these beautiful, beautiful houses and have five really bad photos, it does actually speak to. Okay, hang. What? There's a bit of a disconnect there. So really what we want to do is kind of connect the whole marketing process and make it a little bit more seamless.

Yeah, perfect. Well, Alana, thanks for coming on the show today and sharing everything about 3D renders. Any final advice for the builders out there listening?

No people.

No people. Any renders.

I feel like I'm going to now I'm going to die by the hell. No. I just think if you ever need any advice or some questions, please feel free to send us our way. The good thing is about being in 120 countries. We see so much of what the other world is doing and it is really hard to keep up with the technology that's changed. And you know, we just talked about AI maybe in 18 months. This entire conversation is redundant. We are going to have to get me back on so we can unpack that. But yeah, so keep, I guess trying to keep up to date with everything is important but also a bit overwhelming sometimes. So doing your research and is important. But I also think that ties back to do your research to find a company that really works for you. Now, I think we're the best. So obviously I'm going to say like, hit me up, let's have a chat. But if the service doesn't work for you and there's 10 other companies out there that might great. At the end of the day, what I want to see is better marketing and better renders. So find something that works for you and have a bit of fun with it. Like, you know, I see so many different renders that maybe what they'll do is they'll do like a render and then like they'll do like a Christmas render or things like that. So obviously the budget may not allow for it all the time, but that's the beauty of it being a la carte. And like even two or three renders on your website say that's 1,000 US and it may be to get to two or three clients. You're really not going to stress about that thousand dollars? Hopefully.

Yeah, of course. Well, if anyone is interested to find out more box brownie.com we'll add that to the show notes. But otherwise. Alana, thanks so much for coming on today.

Oh my gosh, thanks for having me. I look forward to working with everyone and yeah, thanks for having me. Will it.

No worries. A big thank you to our listeners wherever you are in the world. If you like the show today, please subscribe to Professional Builder Secrets on your platform of choice. And are you feeling generous? Leave us a review. But until next time, have a great day.