178. Winning The Right Jobs With Nick Schiffer

Your biggest nightmare client.

Oh, man.

Can you remember them and can you share a bit of the story? The biggest nightmare is he here?

This is where you're going to be mad, but we did not sign a contract because we had this agreement and it was supposed to be a kitchen. Long story short, it ballooned and we did about a million dollars worth of work. He said to my super one day, he goes, hey, I know how you got your contracts written. I'm going to. I'm going to sue you and put you out of business. This episode of Professional Builder Secrets is brought to you by Apparatus Contractor Services. Apparatus provides full scope, end to end QuickBooks, Precision Construction accounting and CFO services for residential builders. If you feel like you can't completely trust your weekly and monthly financial reports or you feel like you're flying blind, Apparatus Root will rebuild and operate your QuickBooks accounting system and give you precision construction accounting capability you can trust. Learn more@apparatusteam.com or on the APB Rewards Partner Directory.

Professional Builder Secrets podcast live at the ibs. Yeah, I have the man of the hour. I have the celebrity guest to talk to, Nick Schiffer. Welcome. Nice to have you.

Thank you, man. Appreciate being here.

It's. I love being here with you. Being at IBS with you is special because it's been the one place every year that we've connected.

That is very true. Yeah.

Three years. So there we go.

I feel like we see each other quite a bit through the year, but through a screen.

Yeah. All right. So I'm sure that most people have heard the name Nick Schiffer.

We can assume.

Well, yeah, let's go back to the beginning. Tell us a bit about you as a human being. Oh, wow. Your origin story. Were you the kid playing with Lego building all tell us a bit about that and how you got into this industry.

Geez, I, I haven't. I don't know if I've told the story. I forever. I was a carpenter. I was always playing with toys. There is a story I've told. I used to be at my grandmother's house and she'd asked me what I wanted to do and we'd always go down the basement, get tools, nails, and they were renovating their house and she used to sit me on the floor. I was think 2 years old and I would just sit there and hammer nails into the floor over and over. I don't think I was happy when they finished their renovation because I wasn't able to do it anymore.

Right.

But from that point, every time I would go over there, we'd go to the hardware store and I'd buy a tool. But fast forward, like through, through my childhood. I was, you know, my father owns a fence company, so, you know, blue collar, you know, kind of in construction. I was building, you know, ramps for my skateboards and bikes and, you know, I built a shed for myself when I was little for no apparent reason. And I was just obsessed with carpentry. Watching this old house. There was another show called Home Time that I watched forever.

Yeah.

And I went to trade school for high school. In high school, you know, focused on carpentry. I, at one point in school, I like, really just started helping teaching because I was just, I was obsessed with it. So I go home, I learn, I come back to school and help my friends and like, hey, this is how you do this, right? And I, I graduated and my intent was I was going to go work. My mom really pushed me to go to college and I applied for college and went for construction management and started or what I thought was learning the business side of construction. And truthfully, like, college was kind of a blur. And I like, anytime I wasn't in class, I was working. Like, I would leave. I didn't stay on weekends.

Like, it wasn't a party three years ago.

Like, I mean, Thursdays maybe I party, but Friday, 8am class, and I'd leave and go to work.

Right.

But you know, when I graduated, I went back to work for my dad. I worked for him for 11 years over the course of my life. And I got a call one day and they said, hey, we'd like to interview you for a job. I'm like, oh, I'm actually not looking for a job. They're like, well, okay, and hung up. And then called me two weeks later and said, hey, we really want to interview you. This is for an assistant project site superintendent role for a big high rise project in the city. And I didn't, I never. I live in Boston now. I live in Boston, but I had never been to Boston before. We lived 30 minutes south and I went in, I ended up.

Sorry, you'd never been 30, 30 minutes north.

Not, not on, like, not on my own.

Okay, right.

Obviously I've been in the city, but like I had never driven into the city, especially rush hour. So they were telling me to come in. Interview at rush hour.

Yeah.

And I remember I left like three hours in advance and I was sitting in the parking lot for two hours. Yeah, Fast forward. I, I end up working for this big developer and Was in commercial construction, worked my way up to assistant project manager and I was, we were part of a 32 story high rise that we were building. I was on the owner rep side, but I was doing all, all of the APM work and I started losing the, the passion for love.

Yeah.

Yeah. And you know, in, in, in commercial, especially high rise, it was so interesting to me. Like in the ground steel cast windows and then we would, we'd be putting cabinetry in that cost us $680. And I was like this, where, where's the craftsmanship? And so I started doing carpentry on the side and it got to a point where it was, it was not sustainable. I was, I was working like ridiculous hours a week and I finally gave my notice and said I'm going to, you know, start my own company. They offered me three months salary to stay for a month and I declined because I was like, no, you had enough. I have to commit to this.

Yeah.

And I started my country as a carpentry company. I thought I'd be, you know, a carpenter forever. I ended up hiring a couple people that were my friends and, and then interestingly, social media, Instagram specifically started taking off and I started networking very quickly with other people that were similar and like minded and I started meeting those people and then I started hiring those people. And when I started realizing that there's people out there that are either just as passionate and as talented or more talented than I, I started thinking about what if I built a team of people like that.

Right.

So that was 11 years ago.

Okay.

And nowadays, you know, we, we went from being a carpentry company to substantial remodel to whole home construction to now we're building as, you know, a $10 million specos.

Beautiful.

So, yeah, that's a fast track version.

Okay. So let's, let's go down the passion side of that story. Yeah. It's more than carpentry, isn't it? It's, it's. Yeah, it's a, it's a. The artisan, the art. Yeah. Of working with timber.

It's, it's not even Tim. It's just I like to build. Okay. A hobby of mine was building cars. And you know, when I graduated college, I had built cars and homes. And one of my, you know, my brother called me one day and we were chatting about it and he's like, you literally can fix and build the two most expensive things that we ever own. And he, and he was like, which one are you going to pursue as a career Right. And I, I thought it was going to be hot rods. And I was offered a job with this pretty prestigious shop. And when I got the offer letter, it was just like. I was like, I can't live on that salary. That's crazy.

Yeah.

So I decided to go after homebuilding and keep the cars as a hobby. But, you know, nowadays it's not. It's not the carpentry, it's. It's. It's. It's the problem solving. It's the, the pushing of, you know, what is. Like, I think that in life, but specific to my industry, we oftentimes are, you know, faced with a challenge, and we, we react to it with what comes first. Like, to us first. Right.

Yeah.

And for me, I. I refuse to. To do that where, you know, my team will. Will say, hey, this. This is how we're going to do it, or it's going to take. It's going to take three days. It's like, how do you do it in two? It's like, we can't. It's like, what if I rip the side of the building off and put all the cabinetry in through a crane? It's like, well, that would be ridiculous. It's like. Right. But there's. What's the in between?

Yeah.

And I think for me, that's what I really have found a passion in is, is working with people and, you know, as, as employees, as clients, as architects, as partners that just want to really do cool shit with cool people. I swear.

Right. Sure.

We're builders.

Yeah. Okay, so take us back 11 years. Do you remember your first job?

I do.

Tell me about it. What was it and how did it go?

I don't know how it went because I didn't know my numbers. It was a kitchen renovation for good friends of mine. I mean, generally speaking, I think it went pretty well. I was the only person. I was on site every day performing the work and organizing the work.

Yeah.

But I, I didn't have any trades or partners. It was like I was just figuring this stuff out as you go. Screwed up the building permit, screwed up the structural design, like, made a bunch of mistakes, but got it done, and they were super happy. And then I took on a, A, a full home renovation. That was the architect of the high rise that I. For my previous firm. And he was like, hey, I bought a house. I'd love you to do the work. And I recently brought that contract up to see, like, what it was. Yeah, I think it was like $160,000. I'm like, that was a 4,000 square foot house. Like, I don't know what I.

What were you thinking?

I don't know what I excluded, but there's no way I made money.

We have a number of clients who do that. They. They get to the final number and they go, that's way too low. I've missed something.

It's. I truly don't know. I don't know how you know it. Like, I made money back then, but, you know, 11 years ago, it was. You know, it was just that it was. I would do that, and it would immediately lead to another referral. And I was just figuring it out. And I do remember. I don't remember specifically when, but I do remember a point in my career where. When I did understand the business and I did understand what it costs and what I should charge, I remember, like, losing a lot and losing a lot of clients. And I'll never forget I had this client, Betsy and Joe, and amazingly nice people.

Yeah.

And they hired me. And it would be like, can you install crown molding in this one room? There's these small projects, like, one. One. One project a year.

Yeah.

1500 bucks. I was there for two days. Whatever. Like, and it was just one project at a time. And I remember they called me, like, hey, we want to do the next bedroom. Like, we want to do all new trim and a couple of miscellaneous things. And I sent them a price. And she said, hey, Nick, I'm. You know, this is. This is almost double what it was last year. I said, oh, yeah. Like, you know, we're growing. So, you know, you know, I have a team now. Like, you know, they're great carpenters and, like, okay, we're gonna. We're gonna look elsewhere. And I never. I'll never forget how defeated I felt where I was. Like, I thought that they valued me and that they were like, I'm supporting Nick's business. I was so convinced of it. And then it was price, and they were like, oh, never mind.

I mean, the sad part that we all run into in this industry is that most people are selfish, and their first desire is the WiFiM question, what's in it for me? You know, and. And obviously there. What do you think with what you've Learned in those 11 years? What's the biggest misconception about running a building business? That somebody may be listening to us today is thinking about starting their own business. What is the biggest myth out there about running a building business?

I think there's a few, but I think for me, it was early on it was just me. So I would charge say $10,000 for a job. And despite how long it took, at the end of the day, I still put ten grand in my pocket. And I remember hiring my first employee and it's like, hey, 10 grand to do that job. And then no matter how long it took, at the end it was ten grand minus however many hours times his hourly rate net me two grand. And I think that when you start a business, you know, there is this, even today, like for who we are today, there's this understanding that we're not pricing based on who we are today. We where we're pricing based on who we want to be tomorrow. So, you know, we're, we're considering what it costs to do construction tomorrow, not today. And what I mean by that is like understanding, like who are the people that we want in, you know, in place? Do we need a project manager, a site super? Do we not have them now? But should we? For this type of project where it's like owner operators, I think, you know, one of the biggest benefits from the client's perspective is an owner operator can be real lean, trust.

Sure.

Have real small overhead.

Yeah.

You know, you want to talk about like a cost plus scenario, but it's like, you know, they can be operating at a 10% fee, they should be operating less and they're making a great living because they have no overhead. And you know, and I come in and I have overhead and office and I'm like, systems. And there's not, not one isn't better than the other. But if you're looking to, to grow a business and build a business and scale, you need to understand that those things need to be essentially in place. Yeah. Prior to them actually being in place.

And, and I mean, you saying there's no difference. I think there is a huge difference from a client's perspective of working with a builder that is professionally set up.

Sure.

That has that infrastructure, those systems, et cetera, et cetera.

Yeah, I, I would agree with that. What I would, my argument there is that it's not that it's no different, it's that one isn't necessarily better than the other.

Yeah.

You know, some clients don't need the systems of communication.

Correct.

And are totally fine. Like I, I, I use the term cowboy sometimes. Like, you know, cowboy could come in and get this job done and, and be the best builder. He could be a better builder than me.

Yeah.

But my experience will be different because we're managing it professionally. Like, you're getting regular cadence of communication. It's, it's, it's a, It's a very thoughtful experience.

Yeah.

And some clients value that and some don't. Yeah.

So this has probably never happened to you, but I'll ask the question anyway. Have you ever had a client ask you for something that is completely unrealistic or impossible? And if so, what was it? And what did you say to them and it might have been unrealistic or impossible in their home? Just didn't work. How did you handle that? Kind of. You guys have to be crazy, but you can't say that.

I'm trying to have a. I'm trying. I'm having a hard time, like, figuring out which angle we're going here.

Okay. I'm, I, I'm trying to get away from the standard. Let's talk about the building industry.

Yeah, but like, but when you say impossible, like, are you saying, like, hey, I need this done in five days when? Or, hey, can you install a wine cellar that's flush with my floor?

Either. Or whichever. Whichever story you've got that springs to mind first.

I'll answer it generally first. We are absolutely like, yes men in our com. Everything is yes. And because I truthfully, like, I just believe that anything can be accomplished.

Sure.

And it's, you know, you know, everyone always combats it. Like, yeah, but, you know, everything, you know, that doesn't. It's going to be super expensive if you do. Not necessarily. And my argument there is that oftentimes this stuff that is complicated or not status quo just takes more thought. And if you go, if you're spending the time thinking about it and understanding how to do it, you know, there's typically opportunity to get there. And it's a poor reference, but the reference there is that show, I think, Extreme Home Makeover.

Yeah.

I made this, this comment to my team one day, and I was like, they build a house in seven days. And one guy is like, yeah, but they spent six months fixing it. I'm like, six months and seven days is still not a bad schedule. I'm not saying it's a great house.

Yeah.

The point is, is there's always a way to accomplish it. And for us, like, we look at everything as an opportunity to how. How do we make this more efficient? So, you know, we have a project right now, that very complicated frame. And I was like, I want to. I want to build the house off site. And it's like, well, you know, we needed to go through this incredibly thoroughly. You know, the windows had 8 inch tolerances. You know it's like we can do this but we need to. We really need to spend time like modeling the entire home. And we did. And that house went up in six weeks. And we had no issues like 000 the steel fit, the windows fit, the frame. Everything was.

And you did all of that off site and then assembled it on.

Yeah. We were digging the hole while the frame. The house was being framed.

You don't. You don't enjoy risk at all do you?

No. I think my life is everything. Everything when it comes to building is risk.

Right.

And this is where I put all my. Like this is where I gamble everything.

Sure.

You. As you know we work very closely together. You know from you. You mentioned like as a human. Right. Earlier. For me I balance this. This thought of I don't know how long I'm here. Okay. So I'm going to take risks and go after what I want.

Sure.

And that doesn't mean I don't have anxiety attacks in the middle of the day because I'm like what the fuck am I doing?

Yeah.

But. But I balance that with. You know. I also don't know how long I'm here but I. But I. You know I need to. I need to take the opportunity when the opportunity presents itself and the only way that that fails and I'll get to the failure in a power in a minute. The only way that that fails is if I quit.

Sure.

And never give up. The example of that is I'm building this house that is going to go to market close to double what the bank tells me it's worth and I'm gonna sell it. And I get the what if you don't? And it's like well then I. I gave up.

Yeah.

What do you mean? And I'm not saying giving up is wrong. I think there's a lot of negative connotation around giving up and changing and stopping.

Sure.

Everyone's like if you give up you're a failure. It's like no, not necessarily. And it's also like maybe you just want to do something different.

Yeah.

But that house, it's. If I don't sell it it's because I've given up finding the one person that will buy it.

Sure.

Because there's billions of people and there's someone that will look at that and be like yeah, I value that. There's not. It's not just me.

And I've seen it. So I know you're going to sell it.

Yeah.

It's Beautiful. I mean, it's a one of a kind. It's an incredible, incredible home. But as you say, there's some risk attached.

Enormous risk to that.

Yeah.

And I think, like, you know, I come to these conferences and my wife never travels with me. We have four little kids. Yeah. And I don't give her enough credit. And I. And I'm going to.

Well, do that now.

Doing it now.

There we go.

If you're listening, you.

You couldn't do this without her, correct?

Yeah. I mean, we. We have, like, there's a healthy respect and understanding that, you know, like, she trusts me.

Sure.

And sometimes she's like, just do it. I don't want to know about it. You do it. And then there's other times where we talk and she's like, what's going to happen? I'm like, I'm going to figure it out. And she. And she's like, okay. And. And I think that, you know, it's. I wouldn't be able to do it without her. And. And I don't tell her that enough. And for whatever reason, now I'm getting emotional, which I did.

Well, we've just told her. So you. You've taken a step in that direction in this.

Please, Doug, where'd you go? But, yeah, I mean, it's, for me, like, the other side of what I do, you know, when I started my company is that I also want to help people.

Sure.

And, you know, and I. And I was. I was never shy for. Of asking for help, you know, talking to other builders, you know, even now, like, getting lunch with my competitors. And, like, it's like, I want to be a collaborator. You know, there's enough out there for us to work together. And, you know, and then, of course, fast forward, you know, we start the podcast, and it was my opportunity where it's like, as I grow and learn, you know, I want to turn around and find the guy that's a year behind me.

Right.

Because when it was me and I was growing, I was looking at guys that were 5, 10, 15, 30 years ahead of me, and if I could have just talked to someone that was a year ahead of me, it would have felt more obtainable.

Right.

Where it's like, you talk to someone that's 30 years ahead, it's like, man, how will I ever reach?

Sure. But that's a lot more accessible. So it sounds like you've had people in your life around you that have helped you on. On the journey.

Yeah.

How important is it to surround yourself with people that stretch you, make you go to a level that you wouldn't otherwise have gone to, in your opinion.

I don't think I would. I think it's. I, I mean, the most important, I think if you're trying to achieve something that is above what is considered typical, the norm.

Yeah.

If you don't have some sense of community that offers even the slightest bit of encouragement mixed in with the people that tell you you can't do it, there's. I think it's really easy to kind of fall into just like a, you know, a monotonous, you know, process. You know, A couple weeks ago, I was driving, and we were. We were facing some pretty big challenges with one of our projects in, in terms of the financing. And I was driving, and, and, and a friend was with me, and I think we had the radio off, and we just weren't talking. And I looked at him, I said, I, I get it. This is. I, I, I, I understand why people give up, because it's. It would be so easy.

Oh, of course.

I could just stop.

Yeah.

And they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, I could just stop doing what I'm doing and just do something normal. And I would, like, I wouldn't have. I wouldn't be shaking right now. I would. And I would feel more comfortable. And, and he's like, are you thinking about giving up? I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Absolutely not. But I can, like, I can understand. I can understand why. And again, like, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It's just I'm not wired that way. So it's like, the moment I, like, I'm. I'm constantly moving the goalpost where it's like, you know, 10, 11 years ago, you know, I, I was thinking, I, I'd love to make 100 grand a year.

Right.

And it's like. And then it was like, I'd love to do $500,000 worth of work a year, like, and it just can continue to compound. And, you know, for me, I think that that's where I need to balance better in the sense of, like, I'm constantly moving that goalpost.

Yeah.

But I don't reflect a lot.

Sure.

So every once in a while, I'm kind of reminded to, like, look back and say, hey, you know, Facebook's great about that.

Yeah.

Because I've posted so much on social media. Hey, eight years ago, you were building sheds. I was like, oh, that's cool.

Yeah. I mean, we haven't made any secret of the fact that you and I work together pretty closely. You said that you went to college, you did a construction management degree. What. What have we been able to add that that wasn't there from all of your other experience?

Well, first and foremost, I wrote this article on LinkedIn about college, and I wrote. I think I wrote college sucks.

Okay. And that's what I like about you, is the subtlety that comes with you.

Oh, very subtle. Yeah. Yeah. But for me, it just, it, it did suck. Like, I, I didn't, I didn't leave there feeling as though I knew anything.

Right.

Like, or knew more. And not because I went in there knowing anything. Like, I just, I felt as though it was just this, like, check of a box.

And it sounds like, I mean, I threw the. Did you party at you? And you said no a little bit. But you, you were a serious student, so it wasn't like you wasted your time there.

Yeah, I mean, I'm certainly not like an A student. Sure. But I'm also not like someone that didn't care. Like, I wanted to pass and I wanted to get a degree and, and people like, do you regret going to school? I'm like, well, no. Like, it awarded me the job, which I met my wife and, like, so, like, how could I regret that? But I learned far more when I was in commercial construction and learned that process and that at massive scale. Like, 280 million dollar job. I'm signing change orders for, you know, a million bucks. Like, it's, it's, it's a dollar. Yeah. But fast forward to, you know, us working together, you know, and I just, and I said this over there. It's like I reached out because I wanted to scale and I have, I'm. I'm an idea guy. I'm a visionary. I can, I, I think of crazy stuff. I research stuff. I'm like, this would be awesome. And I. And I just want to throw it to someone and have them do it.

Yeah.

So when, when we started talking, it was. I had all of these ideas for the company and I would, it would be like I had six browsers open on my computer. And it's like, I'm working on this. And then I'm like, wait, I'm gonna go work on this one. And I couldn't focus, so I made this. I compared it to, you know, having like seven soccer balls on a field. And I want to get all of them across the field. And I'm kicking one at a time a little bit where it's like, I should just focus on one and get it all the way across the field.

Sure.

And so that was what made me reach out to you is like, andy, this is what I want to accomplish. I need structure. I'm a guy that if I have a to do list, I'll go through and I'll get everything on my to do list. If I have stuff to do and I don't have it in front of me, it never gets done right. And I can't prioritize. So that's why we started working together. And transparently, like, I quit on you.

You did.

And I was like, I can't do this. I don't have the time. And then I joined another group, and I'm like, they're going to do it better. And.

Yeah.

And then they didn't. And then I was like, andy, please, please let me back in. And we've been working ever since, and we have made really great progress. And I brought my team along, and now I'm just.

I'm devastated that they scared of me. I can't watch a whole episode of Little House on the Prairie without crying. How can anybody be scared of me?

Well, we don't. We've never seen you cry.

Okay. All right. We need to watch a Little House on the Prairie together, and then you'll see it.

I don't know if I've ever seen that movie. No, I think what. What I mean by that. And it's the same for me. It's like when I go into a meeting with you, like, it's business. It's like, know, we shoot the. For a minute, and then it's like, hey, Andy, this is where I'm at. This is what I'm struggling with. And you're like, yeah, lock in. Let's. This is what we're going to do.

Right.

And, you know, and we. We make progress every week. And it's. You know, for me, you know, my biggest thing forever was like, I just want a dashboard.

Yeah.

Where it's like when I'm driving my car, like, I know everything that's going on. I know how much fuel I have. I know how fast I'm going. And it's. You know, I wanted the same thing for my business. And forever, like, we would try to build that internally. And as you saw, like. Like, it got to a point where it's like this excel sheet that, you know, don't touch cell cu. If you do, it will destroy itself. And that really allowed us to. To really measure things.

Sure.

You also like, you also really put on me the, the pressure to measure things that I didn't realize were important to measure. And, you know, even from like a marketing perspective and it, and it, it really, like, started uncovering some of the things that I realized that I just wasn't doing right.

Well, and that's a key point. I don't think there's ever been a time in your life when you weren't busy. But what we want you to be busy with is the things that are of value to where you want to take the business, not just busy for the sake of being busy.

A couple calls ago, we had chatted and you said, hey, your focus right now is based on your lead flow, like this project right here that you need to, you need to get that to a contract with all of your pressure, like all of your might. Yeah. And, and find out if it's going to move forward or not and don't focus on anything else. And I was like, oh, that makes sense. And I push, push, push. And they were like, hey, we're not going to move forward. I'm like, gone.

There you go.

And instead, like, if I had, you know, as simple as that sounds, right?

Yeah.

You know, I would have, I would have worked on that, worked on this one, followed up with that one. And you know, and, and frankly, like, fast forward. We had a guest on our podcast just a couple weeks ago and we were talking about precon. And I've, I've preached pre construction for a decade now. And we, everyone signs a retainer with us and we have a straightforward process. And he was talking about how he was, you know, struggling in business and he was like, I need, I need to nail my pre con.

Yep.

And everyone's going to pay me for it and we're gonna move forward. And if they don't want to pay, they won't move forward. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, hang up that podcast. And I'm like. And I go to my lead, my, my, my intake form. I'm like, I have eight people that I've been working with for like four months now that don't have retainers with me because I'm like, slowly trying to get them there. So I sent them all precon agreements. Four of them ghosted me and, and two of them are moving forward. And I'm like, and I followed up. And they're like, oh, yeah, we're actually not ready to move forward. Or like, we're not, we don't really want to pay for precon. Yeah, I'M like, I was just wasting my time.

There you go.

So sometimes, like, my point with that is sometimes it just takes the kind of the conversation where it's like, let me project and get a reaction and realize that what I'm projecting needs to be returned to me so I can make, you know, actual act on it.

There's good science in that. If you do some research on that, you'll see talking engages the prefrontal cortex.

It's like writing notes for me.

There you go.

I can type all day, but I have an iPad where if I have to do stuff, I write it.

Right.

And then it's like, I like, now I know I'm doing it.

Okay, now, we were supposed to wrap up in 30 minutes, but I've got two questions. If you're okay for a bit more and if Will. If Will is happy that we run over time just a little bit. He's ignored Kayla, said we can do it, so we're doing it. Okay. Your biggest nightmare client.

Oh, man.

Can you remember them? And can you share a bit of the story? The biggest nightmare.

Is he here? What do you want to know?

To take us through all. How did it come about? What went wrong? What was the nightmare? And most importantly, how did you fix it or how did you get out of it?

How much time we got?

All right, try and do it in 10, Covid. Okay. That word.

Everyone's like, oh, yeah, never mind. I know the story. We had three projects shut down in Boston, so we couldn't work on them. And I knew this gentleman and he like, I knew him kind of on a personal level, like, kind of knew my dad.

Yep.

And reached out was like, hey, I want to do my kitchen. And we were like, no problem. He's like, you know, I love everything you do on social media. You know, I love. I want. I want to be part of that. Like, you got. Everything was great. Design him a kitchen. $250,000 cabinet package. We built the entire thing. And every time we were there. Let me back up. That's too specific. He owns a construction related company that is. And he's probably worth 20 plus million. Probably maybe 50 million.

Right.

Does a tens of millions of dollars in construction. First red flag. Okay, I know Covid. So then he was like, I want to do this staircase. So we then we designed this beautiful elliptical staircase. And he's like, I want to do this. And it just was scope creepy.

Okay.

And we.

So you. You flying by the seat of your pants on this one.

I have a pre construction Agreement. Because we were. Because we were designing the kitchen.

Right. But it didn't include staircase.

Well, no, no. This is where you're going to be mad, but we did not sign a contract because we had this agreement, and it was supposed to be a kitchen. But. But. But. But we were signing change. He was signing change orders. So we had something, right? And long story short, it ballooned, and we did about $1 million worth of work. And then it was. Any. Meanwhile, he had about 80 guys working in his house elsewhere.

Yeah.

And doing miscellaneous things. But they're. They. They were held to a much lower standard than us because we were perfect. And I don't really understand. I don't actually remember how it started failing, but he said to my super one day, he goes, hey, I know how you got your contracts written. I'm going to. I'm going to sue you and put you out of business. My super call. He goes, hey, I don't know what he means by this. I'm like, I don't either. I'm like, but let's just get it done. We're so close. Yeah, we got to wrap up and get out of there. And I get a letter from his lawyer saying, hey, we. We'd like. We would like all of the financial backup for the project where, you know, this is cost plus. So I sent it to him, and he goes, cool. Based on your contract, you're supposed to be charging the labor cost because we didn't have labor rates defined, and. And you owe us $200,000. So I wrote him a check for 200 grand because, like, he. He was going to sue me for it, and I was like, whatever. Like. And I'm just like, no problem, sir. Like, you know, we're still here to commit. Like, we want to get the job done. That's my fault. Like, I got to get out of this job. I'm not. I. I don't. I'm not gonna fight. My. My guys show up, he screaming and yelling, literally throwing everyone off the job. And I'm parked in the driveway, and he calls me, and he's screaming at me, and I just. I'm letting him yell, and he stops. I'm like, can we please just finish the job? Like, super. Super calm.

Yeah.

Doesn't let us finish the job, then threatens to sue me because the project's on social media. And he goes, I never gave you permission to do that. My wife is being harassed at the supermarket because they. They know what the inside of our house looks like. So we removed everything from Social media. And then I get a punch list of stuff that didn't get done because we weren't allowed to get it done.

Right.

And then I. Months go by and he's like, I want you to come here and walk through the punch list. And this is. I'm getting to my favorite part, but we're walking through the punch list. And I walk in and there's thousand pieces of blue tape on this cabinetry. It's all black. Cabinetry.

Yeah.

And he's like, this stuff. I'm like, you had like, I have photos of your electricians laying on top of your cabinetry. And it's. It was just like insane. So his lawyer's there and it's him and then his owner rep, and they're like, this is deficient. Will you fix it? And I just. I didn't respond right. And he goes, do you agree? I'm like, agree to what? He goes, fixing it. I'm like, I'm not here to agree to anything. I'm here to understand what. What the issues are. And we'll. And I'll formally address that.

Yeah.

And he goes, come here. And we go in the pantry. He goes, are you a. I'm like, what? He goes, look how low the oven is. I'm like, well, the. We, We. We talked about this. We lowered the oven in the pantry. So you had this eyesight of everything being like, yeah, the same.

Yeah.

He goes, but when you open it, look how low that is. No oven in the world would ever be that low. So I had a tape measure and I measured it.

Yeah.

And it was nine and a half inches from the floor to the door.

Yeah.

And I walked in his kitchen to his slide in range, and I opened the oven and a half inches. And he goes, next thing over here. And it just. And so he was just completely unreasonable. Unbelievable. I mean, if anyone saw this project on social media, the. The craziest part we did is he had this 6 by 6 steel column that held up this 20 inch tall. I beam in the kitchen.

Right.

And he wanted an island around it.

Okay.

And he wanted Calcutta gold marble around it.

Right.

And I was like, that's going to look terrible with a seam. Can I do it without a seam?

Yeah.

He goes, how. How are you going to do without a seam? I'm like. And I, I gave him. It was like $15,000 more. He goes, okay. I jacked the house up, cut the steel out, slid the stone in and welded the column back together and finished it. And it was like the Most insane thing. Like, we made a video of it. And everyone's like, that's. That's insane.

Crazy.

But I know we're running out of time.

Kayla. Kayla said we could go, so we're. Okay.

Months go by like, we're just not like, no, no word. And. And so I'm sorry, I call my lawyer and I send him the report, and he goes. He's like, oh, yeah. Like, he's got quite a bit here. And like, I know who he is. Like, he's not. Like, he sues everyone. Like, this is his thing. And I. And he's like, what was the. The inspection? Like, I'm like, well, it was him and his lawyer. And he goes, his lawyer was there. I'm like, yeah, his lawyer was walking. He goes, yeah, that. You can't. He can't have legal representation. And if he takes you to court, he. He needs to hire a different lawyer. He can't. He can't. I'm like, oh, I don't. Okay, so nothing. And that following Christmas Eve, I'm on vacation with my family, and on Christmas Eve, I get a lawyer, a letter from his lawyer saying, just a reminder, we plan to sue you. Like, I was like. And I read it and I was like, I'm upset, but also like, you. And also, like, I'm just gonna ignore it.

Yeah.

And I ignored it. Yeah. And so I think I have a timer set in my phone for like the seven year, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like warranty. Yeah. Yeah. Like, once seven years is up, I'm gonna post all the stuff back on social media.

Yeah.

Which maybe I won't. Probably not a good idea. But it's like every year on. On Christmas Eve, it's like, I'm like another year down. So.

So he's never sued you yet?

No, he's never sued me. He. He stiffed me out of like 20 grand at the end, plus the. The labor that we missed on. And his owner rep, who was like, he would flip flop. Like, I think he was so in bed with this guy that, like, when I was. When he was with him, he's like, nick, you're wrong. But like, when I was with him alone, he's. He's like, nick, like, I'm sorry. Just a belligerent individual. And so.

Yeah.

I mean, that's my.

That's. That's the worst nightmare. And you still here and you're still standing, you're still smiling. You're still doing great things, so.

Because what am I going to do?

Oh, exactly. All right. Quick fire. Okay, in your opinion, with what you've seen in 11 years.

Yeah.

The worst trade.

The worst trade.

The worst trade.

Are you serious?

I'm serious. Which one of you had the biggest headache with? Can you think of one that consistently is a headache? Lets you down?

Consistently lets me down. Plumbers.

Okay. Best snack to have on a construction site. Keep the energy up.

Steak.

Steak as a snack. Love it. If you can't afford a steak, what would be number two?

Burger.

Burgers. Okay, if we were going to make a reality TV show about your business. Yeah. What would it be called?

Oh, God.

I mean, it sounds like Pimp My House with your. With the rest of your background.

I don't know. I'm not like. I don't know.

The Impossible. Mission Impossible.

Something. Yeah. Something about, like, I want to, like, ridiculousness is already taken by Rob Derdek, but, like, something along the lines of that.

And if you weren't playing you, which actor would you want to play the role of? Nick Schiffer. Yeah. No, of you in the TV series. Oh.

Who would I want to play? Me.

Yep.

Ryan Gosling.

Okay, fair comment, fair answer. All right, Will, just so that you know, Kayla gave us permission to go slightly over, which we apologize. Thank you to everybody that's been listening. Nick, thank you so much. It's an absolute pleasure. Always. We'll talk again soon on the podcast.

Thanks, dude.

So that is Professional Builder Secrets live at the ibs. You'll see that we've got all of our different speakers up for the rest of the day. Feel free just to take a quick shot of that QR code. It'll give you the list of the people we're talking to. Thank you for listening.