20. How Builders Can Create Great Content With Scott Bywater

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Hello and welcome to the Professional Builder Secrets podcast, a podcast by the association of Professional Builders for building company owners, general managers, VPs and emerging leaders. Here we discuss all things running a professional building company from sales, processes, financials, operations and marketing. Today I'm joined by Scott Bywater, a leading marketing authority and copywriting strategist who has helped various businesses grow online. Scott, thank you for being here today.

Thanks Bosco. Great to be here.

Well, Scott, why don't we start off with you telling us a little bit about who you are and a little bit about your background. You have quite an illustrious portfolio when it comes to copywriting. So tell us how you take us through a snapshot of what you do on a day to day basis and how you got into this.

Yeah, absolutely. So I sort of fell into copywriting by almost by chance. I was involved in sales and marketing for from about the age of 17. I'm 43 now. Yeah, you lose count after a while. But yeah, so I got into it when I was 17. Then about the age of 24, I really went out on my own as like a marketing strategist. And from there I had a meeting which is a bit of a turning point with someone from Reader's Digest and she was quite impressed with my copy. So then I segued to copy and I think working from a very low base. But I think I 10 times my income as soon as I started specializing in copywriting, which taught me a lot about the importance of niching and hitting the right market at the right time. Yeah, so, and that's, that's really how I got into copywriting. Since then I've worked with most of the big direct marketers in Australia. From your body trim to knowledge source, I've spoken at a lot of the to the mastermind groups like for people like Dale Beaumont and Ben Simkin and James Schramko, superfast business, that sort of thing. So that's a quick background.

When did you know that copywriting was a craft that you had started to perfect and you started to get results? Like when did you know that this was the path that you wanted to take?

I sort of fell into it. Like I loved marketing. Like I love you sort of your Jay Abrahams and that sort of thing. I did a seminar that when I was 17 and it automatically popped for me when I went out on my own. I went out as almost like a marketing strategist. And then I fell into like that copyright. So it was probably around the age of 24, 25 that I fell into like, hey, I'm going to move into this sort of space. And I think that was probably a turning point was that reader's digestion. I thought, oh, I'm actually quite good at this if that makes sense. So yeah, that was probably a turning point.

Now we're going to get into the Coles notes of copywriting and how effective one can be or a company can be. But if you had to sum up what makes an effective copywriting process, what would that be? And what do you love the most about being a copywriting strategist?

Yeah, so I mean, if I had to sum it up, the way I look at copy is you've got the copywriting process itself. You're looking at 40% research, 40% copy, 20% editing. And I learned that from Gary Benzavinga, who is one of the world's greatest modern day copywriters. And yeah, that was really, that really the breakdown. I often find that it's probably even more in editing than writing in many cases in terms of the spend there. So the way I will generally start off a project is if I've got an email list. We'll survey the email list and find out the conversation going on inside the customer's mind. That's the single most important thing Robert Collier was there was the guy who talked about that. Because if you understand what's going on in their minds, if you understand their pain points, if you understand their frustrations, if you understand what keeps them up at night, all of that sort of thing, you can write directly to that. Because one of the things I'm fond of saying is it doesn't matter how well you write about solving knee pain if your prospect has back pain. Right? So it doesn't matter how eloquent your words are, how amazing you speak and you narrate your copy. If you're missing the mark, it's not going to work. Average copy will work better than great copy if it's targeted at the pain point. So very, very important to get that. I mean, you can then go deep if you like, like you can go onto places like Amazon and look at like, let's take back pain for example. You can look at all the back pain books and in particular, look at all the comments in those sections. If you don't have access to an email list or if you want further research data, that research is really, really important, you can then do competitor research, look at what are all the competitors doing, and then you know what's working in the market, what's not working in the market. So that's a really critical, really critical part of it. And from there then the copy itself. Now the way I look at a copy is really once you've mapped it out, you want to almost map it out. Like if you can imagine a mind map and you say, okay, once you've done your research and you've copied all the text for the different categories of the stuff you want to talk about and all that sort of thing, then you put it in a mind map and you go, I want to make sure in this particular, whether it's a series of emails or a long copy marketing piece or a webinar or whatever, same principles apply. But you want to put it on that, in that format and go, okay, I'm going to talk about that first, that second, that third, that fourth, that fifth, et cetera, et cetera. And at the end of that, you also want to go, okay, once you've got that, when it comes time to write, you want to write as quickly as you possibly can. So if you're a builder listening to this, one of the advantages that you will have is that a lot of that research may already be in your head, right? You already have that knowledge and have that quite nicely inside your head, but you want to write it very, very quickly, as quickly as you can, and get the words out. Because what people often fall into the trap of is writing and editing at the same time, which slows down the whole process. So if all you do is write and then once you've got all the words down, then you go back and the hard work begins of actually taking all that mold of rock, if you like, and becoming Michelangelo and chiseling it away until you have a. Yeah, a masterpiece.

So what's the fun part with your role? Is it the research? Is it the findings when you go on this? Or is it when you see a strategy come to life or when you get results? What's the joy that, what's the point that brings you the most amount of joy today?

The strategic part I really enjoy. So getting clear on someone's strategy. And that's something we haven't really covered as yet, right? But if you have great copy, poor strategy, it's not going to work very well. So it's looking at a business and looking at the assets that a business has. So, for example, let's say you're a builder and you've been in business for like ever, and you've got a database of like 30,000 on your email list. You will have a very different strategy that you would start with. You would probably start with like nurturing your email list and email list strategies and all of that sort of thing. And that may be all you need to do, right, is just nurture that email list, warm it up, et cetera, et cetera. You'd have a very different strategy than if you were just starting out. So if you're just starting out, you may need to go potentially depending on your area. But let's say you're a builder. In Parramatta, for example, you may have Google AdWords that are like builders Parramatta. Yeah. And then you send them to a specific page and what happens on that page all depends on understanding your target market in that area and what's happening in their world. Right? So. And then you may retarget on Facebook ads, for example, and all of these things. So that the copy is like the, if you can imagine, the copy is like the building blocks, right? But you've got to get the architecture right, otherwise the building is going to be a mess if your plan isn't crystal clear. So I love that part and I also love the part when it all comes together at the end and you, you get the headline that pops and really just cuts through and obviously seeing the results is the most exciting part because you can go, okay, how did that work? What's the data? What's the metrics? All of that sort of thing is also, yeah, really, really exciting.

So, yeah, Scott, you've talked about compelling copywriting, you've talked about strategy, you've talked about speaking to the pain points. But what drives transformation to deliver that online engagement, specifically with conversion, you know, is it. Is there a technique or is there a tip for anyone out there looking at building an online brand? How do you make conversion so easy for the audience?

I think the number one thing with an online brand is trust, right? So if you look at, there's a book called they ask, you answer, and the guy's name, I think is Marcus Sheridan. And he was selling swimming pools, which is, I guess, a type of building. And what he found was in the industry, the average conversion rate was like 10%. And he was using HubSpot and he could sort of see how many visits someone had before they inquired. And he found if someone had 30 or more visits, like they viewed 30 or more pieces of his content before they went to a sales meeting, the conversion jumped up to, from 10% to, to 80%. So the bottom line is if you can get people to view your content more, they're going to, they're going to trust you more and then they're going to be far easier to sell to and move them towards that. You know, that sales process is really the bottom line. Need to be strategic about that though. I know there's, there's certain industry experts online who are like, you know, just, you know, post 100 pieces of content a day, all of that sort of thing. You need to be strategic and really move them off the social media platforms into your network so that then you can communicate, you can control the building of the relationship from there. So that's really what I would. Yeah, I would recommend.

What do you think is one of the biggest pain points right now for brands online? Where do they struggle when it comes to effective copywriting and getting results?

In terms of brands, I think one thing is probably they struggle with. Positioning is one like, how do you set yourself apart in a really noisy, noisy world? If you like, how do you make your brand, your product, all of that sort of thing stand out? How do you create a unique selling proposition which really makes you pop? So, for example, recently I was talking to a builder and they had a new type of technology that they were using to build with, which was superior in many ways. And there was a real opportunity there to position themselves as that, to attract a higher caliber of clientele as such. So if you can get clear of that, clear about that, and decommoditize your building business, I think that makes a really big difference. So that people don't just look at you and go, they're another builder. Maybe it's that you build houses, you know, like the big thing with. Because it's easy to create a usp, right? And people get a bit confused about this. But you could be the only builder that builds pink houses, right? That could be your usp. The only problem with that is your target market probably doesn't care or want that. So again, to create a usp, it comes back to the research phase to go, what does my market actually want? So then you can make that offering which really pops to your. Yeah, pops to the right people sort of thing.

It's an interesting insight because most people think that, you know, that USP is that unique selling differential, right, that stands out but sometimes you have to look beyond that and also find out what the need is or the demand is for that particular product or service. Now let's get into the building space a little bit because, you know, builders are faced with so many different challenges when it comes to running a business. And I'm sure you've had your experiences working with different builders. What do you think would be that number one challenge that builders face on top of making them pop? What do you think is their biggest day to day challenge when it comes to online marketing?

I think with builders it's like anything because the big thing with building, right, is you're doing like your deal size is massive in terms of compared with your average business. Right. If I'm a chiropractor, my deal size is 80 bucks. If I'm a builder, my deal size is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars depending on the type of building you do. But it's significant. So the risk there is depending on the size of your building company. But as you get quite busy doing particular projects and you forget to keep the marketing funnel moving. So I think the biggest challenge is really is having, is having a consistent marketing funnel so that it never gets quiet. And even if they're not, you might have a funnel and you're like, okay, we see these people closing in the next 30 days, these people closing in the next 90 days, these people closing in the Next six months and having that consistent and building it up and you know, having a lead magnet which brings in opt ins and then having emails which nurture those leads and move them with trust. Because remember what I said before about the 30 piece of content bumps the conversion up significantly. So you have really good quality emails which nurture those leads and then those from those leads that then turns into a far easier sale.

So let's talk a little bit about building that trust. It stems from having an online presence. It stems from communicating with your audience as well. What are some of those critical steps needed for a building brand to have an online presence that then creates that trust? What are some of the key steps there?

Yeah, so I think there's a few things. Number one is understanding where your target market hangs out. Now, one of the really good ways you can do this is there's an interesting book called if you want to go deep, there's an interesting book called Buyer Persona by Adele Revella. And one of the things she talks about is interviewing your clients and also interviewing people who didn't buy and understanding what their buying process was. So let's Say you interviewed someone, one of your clients. You said, well, what happened? And they're like, well, you know, we saw your Facebook ad about X 12 months ago and then we received 27 emails and then we decided to make an inquiry and we liked the guy that we met and then we went and made a sale. Now that may be a one off, but let's say you do that several times and, and you see a real theme there. Do you know what I mean? Now that may not be the theme. The theme may be, yeah, they got recommended by a friend. So you need to work out what is the, what is the theme, what are the trust elements? And then base your funnel around those specific trust elements, so to speak, because they'll tell you, they'll say things like, you know what we're looking at to looking at two builders and the reason we chose you was because we knew that you'd done work with several people in the area. Do you know what I mean? If that's the case and they're all saying that, well, then maybe you need to get case studies from prominent people in the area, right? Because that's building the trust, that's building the sales. So it's understanding that at a really deep level, maybe everyone's getting referred hypothetically from their accountant. You call up six people and it's like, oh, you got referral. Then maybe you need to go and develop more relationships with your, with your, with other accountants in the area, deep relationships and do it that way. So it's really understanding the actual buying process because it is a long buying process with builders and it is a more complex buying process than with a lot of other products and services.

You mentioned an interesting point about, you know, knowing your avatars and then speaking to them or interviewing them and then speaking to them, you know, and obviously the building industry has so many different facets. You've got, you know, remodeling and new construction or new design, bespoke. What are some of the common targeted avatars that building companies should go after?

Yeah, I mean, I think it depends on your target market, right? So if you look at it like you've got your developers potentially, you've got your mom and dads who are like 35 plus, you got your first home buyers, you've got your investors potentially. And I think they all have like, there's a potential for all of them, if that makes sense. So it's really understanding your marketplace and where you want to build in. So if you're building in Toorak or Toorak in Melbourne or Double Bay in Sydney, for example, your avatar is probably going to be very different than if you're building in a country town in Bordertown in South Australia or Tari in New South Wales or that sort of thing.

So it's that the avatars speak differently, or you'd have to speak to them differently as well, based on their. Where they are geographically, what their needs are.

Yes. And you may decide that you want to do something different. You might decide you live in an area where you know it's going to boom for investors. Right. So you could, you could then target, if you chose to, you could go outside the box and target investors who are looking to just build a home in that area, build it up and flip the properties potentially, if that makes sense. So there's lots of ways of thinking outside the box rather than just saying, rather than just advertising in Facebook, in your local area sort of thing. You can do joint ventures with people, all of that sort of thing. There's a lot of options if you open your mind to it.

Now, when you talk about case studies and when you talk about building trust, you're asking builders to become storytellers. And often a lot of builders will say, I don't have time to be a storyteller. So what are some of the common hurdles that come with the building company need of building storytelling, and what are some of the workarounds to become an effective storyteller?

I think the key with storytelling is it really comes quite natural to all of us if we're asked the right questions, right? So if someone sits in front of you and asks you a question, generally you can answer it. Whereas if someone goes, oh, can you tell me a story? I don't know what to talk about. And that's one of the big issues that people have with their content in terms of what to do. I mean, one of the easiest ways to do this is if you've got an email list, send an email out asking if you can ask, or you can do it on your social media, whatever. If you could ask me any two questions about building, what would they be, or about building your house, or just craft that question the right way and people will come back and they'll ask you those questions, and then all you need to do is answer those questions. Now there's a little tool called Otter AI, which you can download on your phone, you can have on your computer. It's like an AI transcript type service. And literally, if I asked you right now, Bosco, what do you love about what you Do. I'm sure you could talk about that for several minutes without really needing to think, if that makes sense. Whereas if I told you to write it, it would take like six months for some people, for some people be like, oh, I'll get around to that. But you can talk it, right? So then you just talk it and then you've got the transcript and that makes up the meat of your content and then you just transcribe it and away you go.

So tell me how you evaluate results or how do you look at metrics that tell you if copywriting is effective or not effective, Especially when it comes to building companies. Where do you go to look at that type of level of engagement and how do you know you have effective copy?

There's several metrics along the way, right? So number one is the metrics is how many opt ins. So if you're advertising on, let's say you're advertising on Facebook is how many people actually download the special report or whatever you're, whatever you're offering and what's the cost for that special report? What's it actually costing? And essentially then you've got, and it might be a webinar, whatever your particular marketing modality is. And then it's like, okay, from there, how many of those opt ins turn into leads? So how many of them actually contact you and what's the time delay for them to actually reach out to you? So that's, that's another one. And then how many leads actually turn into, turn into sales? That's a very simple metrics that you can get. Far more complicated. You can go, okay, this is what the, this is what the process is. And the numbers are for Facebook, this is what they are. If they're coming from a referral, which will probably be a lot better, this is what they are, is that if they come from Google AdWords, and it may be a different process for there because you may not have an opt in, you may go just straight to appointment because they're actually looking for your service. So all of these sort of things. But essentially for a builder you've got opt ins, appointments, sales, and then there's layers of complexity between that, how long between the appointment and a sale, how many appointments turn into sales, how many subscribers turn into appointments, that sort of thing.

So you've got primary and then secondary sort of metrics that go along hand in hand as well.

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah.

So with the building company, you know, there's so much change going on. How do building companies focus then on becoming better Copywriters becoming better storytellers. And why is it so important today?

Yeah, I mean, I think as a building company, I think one of the best things that you can do is start to, start to use that. Because most builders aren't necessarily writers. Right? That's not your craft. I mean, the same as if you ask me to build a wall, I would be completely lost as to what to do. Right. So I don't know if a lot of people listening to this are going to go, yeah, I want to become a copywriter, maybe some, but I think it's a small, small percentage. But if you can get tools like your otter AI and that sort of thing, and you can just start to transcribe it, get very clear, send an email out, find out what questions your prospects have, audio it in and then create a system where someone can then take that, take that content and then it's coming from you, it's in your voice, it's your language, it's not hypey, it doesn't lose authenticity. And then you can have someone tidy that up and turn that into your content that goes out. This is for written content, video content. I mean, one thing I would be doing if I was a builder, I'd be doing video content, distributing that via all the different social media platforms, but then having that transcribed and turning that into, into email content. Because emails I find are far better written than they are written with a call to action than they are just video type of things.

So yeah, what are some of the content trends that you're seeing today? You mentioned video and you mentioned that visual storytelling as well. What other aspects of copywriting or content marketing that, that builders should consider in today's day and age?

I mean, I think you've got your big ones which aren't going to change. You've got your LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, that sort of thing. It's really wherever your target market is hanging out is where you want to be.

And it sounds like email is still relevant today as well.

Well, according to litmus.com, email is like the gets a 42 times ROI for every $1 spent. Now if you compare that as a whole to any other marketing medium, it's. It just can't compare. You know, imagine getting $42 for every dollar you spend on Facebook. Maybe back very. In the early days that may have been possible, but I don't know anyone who can get that today. However, you've got to build the email list, right? So you've got to like for scale things like your social media, your ppc, all of that sort of thing. Yeah. Is. Is critical for actually building that email list and generating the leads and, and all of that sort of thing. But if you have an email list and you're not using it, it's like having a pot of gold sitting in the backyard and just ignoring it.

So when you talk about emailing the database, are you talking about a series of automated emails, are you talking about monthly newsletters? Where are you seeing the trend or the shift when it comes to email marketing today?

Yeah, so I'm a big fan of what I call open loop emails. Right. So which is where every email. Because you sort of have these two polarities within the same with content, but particularly with email marketing, we have the scorched earth approach, which is just like, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, and that ends up burning out your list. You do get some, you know, you do get some good results, but it burns out your list and then you've got the romantic approach, which is just like if I do all this wonderful content, people are just going to magically find me, love me and, you know, I'm going to make a ton of money. I prefer something I call the third way, which is basically go straight down the middle, say every piece of content, apart from the occasional maybe sale, which wouldn't really apply to builders anyway, but every piece of content starts with quality, starts with giving and then we'll have a very soft into it or where they'll push to maybe an appointment close or something, something like that. Now if you can do that, you can email far more regularly. So I went through a period where probably a decade where I emailed daily without a problem, every weekday. I would say most builders probably won't want to do that, but doing it weekly, I don't think anyone's going to have an issue with it, providing it's delivering quality every time.

So it's sort of that quality of content with a call to action is what you're saying.

Yeah. So quality content with a call to action. And that quality of content is easier than you think, because if you are delivering that content based on your knowledge, it's actually quite easy. The problem is that a lot of builders will go, oh, what I do isn't interesting, but it is fascinating because you do it every day. Right. It's like, oh, it's just humdrum to you, but to your target market, it's actually quite interesting. So if you get the questions and you can then use transcription software to get it out because you can talk at least seven times faster than you can type, then the bulk of it's already ready, if that makes sense. And you can have someone in your team or you have a writer who actually helps you put that together for you.

Now, you've had an illustrious career being a copywriting strategist, you've been doing the consulting side of things and you worked with a lot of builders as well. Amongst all the other brands that you've worked with, has there been any shocking fact or discoveries about builders that you have found in your years of working with them?

I don't know if there's anything shocking. I just think that there's often far more ways of positioning yourself and niching yourself than you might think, if that makes sense. And across every industry, if you do this stuff, if you email your list regularly, yeah, if you do the ppc, if you build the brand, if you do all of these sort of things, you'll be literally in the top 5% of builders in terms of the marketing department. Because so few people, these are just fundamentals. Right. And so few do the fundamentals.

Okay, so let's, let's talk a little bit about the successful habits of a builder online and let's just talk about brands as well online. When you look at some of these successful brands that are actually nailing copyright writing, they're nailing content marketing, what are some of those successful habits?

I think the key successful habit, I think it really boils down to a few things. One is you understand your market so you know what, what to write about because it needs to resonate with your target market. Two is take them offline, do you know what I mean? So not offline, but take them off the social media platforms because that isn't your real estate, you want to move them to your real estate specifically. And then three is be consistent. So that is a really critical thing. If you're consistent, if you're showing up consistently, all of that sort of thing, well, you'll be, you'll be top of mind, which is, it's particularly important with these high end type products and services. Right? Because building is not a cheap product, it's not a cheap operation, it's hundreds of thousands of dollars. If you're going to choose a builder, you're going to do your research, you're going to look around and you're going to make sure you find the right service for you. So if you're doing all those things, if you're consistent, if you're trusted, if you're building up Your testimonial bank, all of that sort of thing, your odds of success are far, far higher.

Now, what critical advice can you give builders who are new to the whole concept of content marketing, or new builders getting into the space and wanting to build a following online? You know, you talked about building a brand of trust or a house of a brand of trust strategy card there, but tell me a little bit about, you know, what advice you would give them.

I mean, really, if you're a new builder coming into the. Into the market, the first thing I'd say is, like, if you're building a house, get really clear on your architecture. So go, okay, who's my niche going to be? Who am I going to approach? I mean, initially, you might just throw things out there and see who you attract, but eventually you're going to want to get clear on how you're going to set yourself apart from there. Then once you've done that, it's understanding that niche, understanding what questions they've got, all of that sort of thing, and building a content strategy based on that. So obviously you've got, like, you've got all your tools and your hooks. One that I've seen recently is one called Comet, which is amazing for all the things that it can do. And you've got your hubspots and all of the different technologies out there, but the fundamental strategies take the technologies, technology away is a human element. You got to be talking in their language, and then they're going to notice you. They're going to go, oh, you're talking about, you know, I'm looking at building duplexes for investors, and you specialize in that. I want to know more. Do you know what I mean? So you're going to be talking their language. The content has to relate to them and, and getting the message out there and bringing them into your funnel, taking them off the world wide web and into your email list.

And my final question for you. Is there a final resource or book that has shaped your copywriting career? And if builders are out there, you know, wanting to read a little bit more about content marketing, copywriting, is there a book that you recommend for them?

Apart from Russ Book?

Yes, apart from Russ Book.

There's so many that I've read over the years. There would be. Literally, I'm just thinking I'll list off some of the people that I've learned from, which I would encourage everyone to just look into these guys. And they've got very different styles, right? But yeah, you, Gary Halberts, Jay Abraham, Clayton Makepeace Just Thinking Robert Collier they're some of the ones that are just off the off the top of my head. If you like anything by Jay Abraham, I would probably recommend reading because you're like getting everything you can out of all you've got. For example, because it'll change the way you think. Because 90% of this is being I found because when I first and I've been doing this for a long time, but I find that often as business owners, we get into our blinkers and a certain way of thinking. And I think Jay Abraham, his content actually opens your mind and goes to achieve this objective. There's like 27 different ways we can get at it. We can come at it from to get what we're looking to do, if that makes sense. So yeah, that's a long answer to a short question.

But isn't that what copywriting is, a long answer to a short question, isn't it?

That's right. That's right.

Well, I've had a lot of fun hanging out with you and chatting with you about copywriting. As a digital strategist, I could nerd about this for days. But Scott, I just want to thank you again for our listeners out there as well. I think this would be a very insightful interview to give building owners and building companies a lot of thought process when it comes to getting their copywriting done well. So thank you so much for your time today.

No, you're welcome. Thanks, Fosco.

Cheers.

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