205. The Power of Proof With Russ Stephens

Welcome to another episode of Professional Builders Secrets. In this episode, I interview Russ Stephens, the co founder of the association of Professional Builders. One critical area for building companies is being able to demonstrate proof effectively so that prospects trust what they do. Whether it's case studies, testimonials, awards or industry recognition, proof is what gives your clients confidence to move forward. And it's often the difference between winning or losing a contract. In this conversation, Russ and I explore what proof really means, how builders can use it to stand out, and why the highest level of proof comes from third party recognition. Keep listening to discover how you can leverage proof to win more contracts. This episode of Professional Builder Secrets is brought to you by Apparatus Contractor Services. Apparatus provides full scope, end to end QuickBooks, Precision Construction accounting and and CFO services for residential builders. If you feel like you can't completely trust your weekly and monthly financial reports or you feel like you're flying blind, Apparatus will rebuild and operate your QuickBooks accounting system and give you precision construction accounting capability you can trust. Learn more@apparatusteam.com or on the APB Rewards Partner Directory.

In terms of marketing, evidence is case studies, testimonials, online reviews, awards. It's not hearsay, it's not claims. It's irrefutable proof, which is getting more and more important in today's world. You got to understand the question going on inside the prospect's head. They're always going to be asking their self, can I trust this builder? Can I trust this company with AI content on social media and online? It does make people even more skeptical, but it also creates an opportunity when everyone's going one way, go the other, be more personal, be more genuine. Cut through that noise. Your proof will overcome objections and head them off before they even get raised.

Welcome to Professional Builder Secrets, the podcast for building company owners wanting to grow safely and securely. I'm your host, Will Blunt, and today I'm joined by APB co founder Russ Stevens. Russ, welcome to the show again.

Ah, thanks so much, Will. Great to be here. I must be honest, I wasn't sure if you were going to invite me back or AI Russ back after the last one.

Yeah, that was a lot of fun that episode. A little bit different this time. I'm sure we could ask ar us some of the questions we're going to cover today actually, so maybe that's a bit of a side project we could do.

Okay, I can tell who your favorite is.

Yeah, I'm chatting with AI Russ all day when I can't get hold of.

You, so He's a lot more responsive, isn't he?

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Today we're talking about the concept of proof. What is that? What is it all about?

Well, I like to think of proof as evidence. It's not hearsay, it's not claims, it's irrefutable proof. And I guess if you think about a court of law as an example, you can't just rock up and make claims in a court of law. You have to provide evidence. And in terms of marketing, evidence is case studies, testimonials, online reviews, before and after galleries, awards, even partnerships, you know, borrowed authority. All this is, is evidence, evidence and proof that you are a, how should we put it? I mean just a genuine business that is operating which is probably getting more and more important in today's world.

Yeah. What does it actually mean for builders? Like why is it important?

Well, I think you got to understand the question going on inside the prospect's head. Obviously there's not much we can trust online these days. So they're always going to be asking their self, can I, can I trust this builder, can I trust this company? Are they going to deliver on their claims? So yeah, this is where we can't just make claims on our website and in our marketing. We've got to substantiate those claims with hard facts, evidence. So yeah, this is the purpose of it.

I was reflecting the other day, I listened to a podcast, they were talking about how good AI, video and things like that are getting in the online world and how much like pure content there is out there, which is decreasing trust in general across all online platforms. Do you think that emphasizes how important understanding what's going through customers mind is when it comes to proof and also getting more personal in person connections with your potential customers?

Yeah, I mean this really has been a trend over the last ten years, isn't it? I guess it started with the Internet and a lot of automation, even outsourcing. And it became easier and easier to produce a lot more marketing content and especially as people started to game the system. Yeah, I'm talking about SEO. And at some points it became about volume. We're kind of back to quality now. But all that does is it just makes people more and more skeptical. And like you mentioned now with AI and just the explosion in content on social media and online, it does make people even more skeptical. But it also creates an opportunity because the way we have to look at this stuff whenever there's a, a challenge and there's always challenges because you know, in business the goalposts are always moving. But, you know, rather than get frustrated by that, we should always be excited and see it as an opportunity because the opportunity is, you know, when everyone's going one way, you know, go the other, be more personal, be more genuine, cut through that noise and actually, actually show why you're building company is different.

I want to explore that more with you in a moment because I think that's the how to of demonstrating proof in a modern world when AI is taking over the online space. But let's take a step back again and just look at the builder's sales process and how proof plays a role throughout all of that. How critical is it?

Oh, look, it's very critical because it's all noise, isn't it? And are you adding to the noise or are you actually providing valuable information, proof that's going to support your claims with clear evidence? But yeah, it's very, very easy to go with the pack and go with the flow and follow what other people are doing. But when you get to the sales process, just because you've had that meeting and that conversation with someone and got through that initial inquiry and got their details on your database, you've still got to be providing proof, providing evidence, because, yeah, there's no such thing as a done deal. You can't be complacent. But the evidence and the proof that you're going to provide is going to answer a different question in their head as they travel further and further down the funnel. Your content needs to reflect where they are in the funnel, both in terms of interest, but also in terms of proof as well. So, yeah, it's something to be very mindful of that we have to have content that reflects where they are in the customer journey.

It sounds like you're suggesting there's almost a hierarchy of proof in a way, from the initial research phase all the way down to when they're, they're ready to make a decision.

Yeah, because we don't want to go too detailed. We want to think about the question that the prospect has inside their head at a very high level. You know, when they're maybe just thinking the building versus the kind of skepticism questions, concerns that might affect a consumer further down the funnel. And we don't want to get into that situation where we've done all the work and we're about to get them to sign the contract and they start stalling and ghosting. So really important that we understand what the objections are each stage of the funnel. And obviously when it comes to that contract signing, You've done most of the hard work. And really there shouldn't be any objections at this point because the contract you submit to them, the proposal you submit, is exactly what you've been talking about and describing for the last, what, three to 15 months. So there should be no surprises. So it should be a slam dunk. But you know, invariably it never is. But if you think about the kind of objections that are going to come up at that point, this is what you want to be tailoring your proof. You know, your, your proof will overcome objections and head them off before they even get raised.

Yeah, that's a great point. As you were saying all of that, I was just thinking it's almost like you need to list out all of your objections. And it's not just about having a response for those objections in your sales scripts. It's about understanding what third party piece of proof can actually combat that objection as well. Right?

Yeah. And be creative as well. You don't want to make it a Q and A. We're not talking about creating FAQs here. And what happens if my builder goes bankrupt? We don't want to be doing it like that, but we want to be creative and tell stories that address that concern, that objection that may be going on inside their head. Because human beings, this is how we pass on knowledge. It's been happening since the, on the time. So any bit of crucial information that you want to pass on to someone else, if you can wrap it up in a story, that will really help them absorb the message but retain it as well.

In that example of if someone was concerned about a builder going bankrupt, what story could you tell that would prove otherwise?

Yeah, I would talk about business acumen. We've seen some phenomenal responses from builders that have worked with us very closely where they do their quarterly strategic planning. And I've seen builders actually share that on their social feeds as well. Like this is a half day in the office with the team spent strategic planning. And those posts blow up because although it's not related to the consumer building, they love the fact that these builders are acting professionally. And what it's telling them without telling them is we are a professional business. We operate just like you do in your own professional, professional business. Because a lot of these people, especially if they're building high end homes, a lot of them are business owners as well, or they're very senior in a business so they understand the importance of planning. So when you tell those stories, that is going to give them that confidence without actually saying, yeah, we're trustworthy. You can depend on us. We have integrity.

We're just thinking we had the APB awards this week in New South Wales and we had our Sydney event this week and there was a financial management award that would be a great example of something that would demonstrate that you're not going to go out of business sometime soon. Right?

Yeah. All of these awards are great and they complement the awards that are handed out by other industry associations as well. Because generally industry associations, they hand out awards for homes completed or remodeling projects. But we do it a little differently at apb. We hand out awards for business acumen. So yeah, like you say, the financial award, wow, that would be gold, wouldn't it? I mean, that's going to head off an objection pretty, pretty quickly. But we also hand out rewards for different aspects of running a professional building company, which all adds to the proof. You know, it's evidence that you are a professional, well run building company. And of course, the ultimate award that we hand out is Professional Building company of the year. So I mean, how good is that for proof of a ethical, strong business?

And beyond just plugging our awards, I mean, there's so many awards out there from credible organizations that you can apply for. So having a strategy around how you can do that I think is an effective way to get the proof that you need as well.

Now let's just focus on ours. No, you're right. You want to demonstrate a range because yes, some people may not have heard of apb, but they might have heard of another industry association. It doesn't even have to be industry associations either. I mean, there's a plethora of awards you can apply for. I think one that we promote every year is best place to work. And that's something we've been applying for and we've been very successful for a number of years now. But although that may not specifically encourage a prospect to sign with a building company, it adds another layer of proof and, and probably more importantly it, you use it in your recruitment process as well. So I know we're actually, we're talking about sales here, but you know, we're not limited to sales. We got to, we got to think of our recruitment process because we are selling there as well. We're selling ourselves to the marketplace in an attempt to attract the very best talent. And to attract the best talent. It's not just about the package we offer. You know, it's got to be a company that people want to work for. So, you know, think about what you can do in terms of proof and evidence to encourage the, the best people to come and work for your building.

Yeah, I think in that example, if I was looking to build a home and saw that you were a great place to work, certified building company, for me, that would, that would tell more than just the fact that you've, you know, you've won this award. It's more about you look after your staff. Your staff are motivated to do a great job for you. You know, all of those layered things which are below the surface that don't get spoken about.

Yeah, it all compounds, doesn't it? They all complement each other. And yeah, you've got an overall. Yeah, I guess the burden of proof is on the defendant, isn't it? So, yeah, this is. Anything a builder can use can only help.

Okay, we've been a little bit theoretical so far given some examples of what proof looks like for building companies. But let's dive into some more details about the types of proof which can really move the needle and change how a prospect perceives a builder. Can you talk to me about some of those, Ross?

What the actual, like types of proof or specific examples we're looking for here?

Yeah, let's start with types and then we can go into examples if you've got some.

Yeah, well, case studies are really powerful and the reason for that is because they tell stories. And like I say, a story is a great way of getting the message across, but also helping someone to remember that message as well. So a case study really is going to be a story. It's not just someone, you know saying, yeah, we built with this builder and they were great. You really, a good video company is going to really figure the whole story out and tell the story using video. I mean, reviews and testimonials, they work as well because they're coming from people that have got no vested interest in the outcome of a prospect's decision to build with you or not. You know, they got no vested interest in that at all. They share their reviews and their testimonials because they're happy with the work that you've done for them and they want other people to benefit from their experience. So this is why we all place so much value on reviews. And of course you're not going to have a perfect score, especially in this industry. There's always going to be one. But that's not bad either. If you've got a one star review on Google or someone that wouldn't recommend you on Facebook, the best thing you can do is just respond to that professionally. You don't want to get, want to get into an argument with them. But a lot of the time these bad reviews are completely unfounded. So you know, just addressing that, maybe it's someone that has never built with you, we see that a lot. And other times there, there might be specific instances of where they are unreasonable. Now you're not, you're not going to do all your dirty washing in public, but you are going to present a different side of the story. And then when people are looking at that, that builds even more trust because they can see. Well, yeah, I, company has problems like every building company does, but it's how they respond to those problems that's really important. Awards, like we've been talking about, certifications as well, that's other types of proof and really, I guess borrowed authority. Because when you can link your building company to another brand that's maybe more well known, maybe better established, you actually lean on that trust as well. Borrowed authority. So that can be really, really valuable for a builder.

Yeah. A good example of that from our perspective is we have partnerships with industry partners that have credibility in the industry as well. Right. And they're leveraging our credibility and vice versa. So partnerships could play a part in that as well.

Yeah. So there's no kind of case studies, is there, or awards or testimonials or reviews involved, but the mere fact that we work so closely with these partners, again, that heightens trust, I think because we're actually leveraging off some massive companies like buildertrend and Houzz for instance, that are very well established and well known and yeah, people will see. Well, yeah, if BuilderTrend and Houzz work with these guys, then I know those companies, I trust them.

Talk to me a bit more about the Google reviews. I'm probably, you're probably similar to me, I'm not sure. But the first thing I do when I look at a company that I'm looking to work with, whether it's a service provider or a builder or whatever, I go straight to the negative reviews just to see.

No, it's just me. Yeah, yeah, but I mean I look at the, the overall, I think that's, that's pretty good. But you got to look at it in the context of similar companies as well because maybe a 4.1 or a 4.2 is a pretty good score. I've noticed this with a lot of ho hotels. Yeah, I'm looking for a five star rating. It doesn't exist, only when they rate themselves five star. But in terms of a review it doesn't exist. But in the context of all the other hotels, a 4.1, you know, is, is a pretty good score on a lot of sites. But I, I do the same. I, yeah, I'll look at Google and, and I'll be scanning down, I want to know the ones but the twos as well, they're the, they're the nitty gritty ones, aren't they? I'm not going to go one because I might be perceived as just someone who, angry and never satisfied. I'm going to go too and that really hurts. But I'm looking at what they say because a lot of the time I don't even need to read the response from the company. I can see from their wording that they're completely unreasonable, they had unrealistic expectations. But yeah, it's always nice when you see a response from the company as well. It shows that they care.

Yeah, well what I find is the five star reviews is probably what you've heard from them anyway if you've spoken to them. Right?

Yeah. It's no value, is it? It's no value at all really. We don't spend too time reading those.

But also sometimes you look at the one star reviews and you go the things that they've complained about aren't important to me.

Yeah, that's a good point.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because some, yeah, different things are important to different people and you think, yeah, well I can live with that because if that's why they gave them a one staff, yeah, it doesn't affect me. Yeah, I'm all good because they even say that they were happy with other stuff and you think, well that's, that's what's really important to me. But yeah, that's a good point.

It's not actually easy to get people to place Google reviews. And so for builders that are doing 5, 10 homes a year potentially or somewhere within that realm, it's going to take a while to get a good amount of reviews on Google. So what's your perspective on how they can build that up and what's a good number to have to make it credible?

Yeah, you've got to have a strategy and you've got to be willing to ask and then ask and then ask again. You've got to keep, keep asking for these. Just because they don't do it the first time you ask doesn't mean they won't and they are so, so important. You've really got to have a strategy to make this front and center and make sure you do ask one thing. We use, we use an NPS survey because it's so important to us to understand if people are happy or not happy when they're working with us. And that actually acts as an early warning signal for us if someone is maybe not happy about something in the business. So we can jump onto that really quickly. But just as importantly, when we get the nine and tens come back as well, the next logical step is to ask them to leave a review. So we've seen building companies implement the NPS scoring, which is net promoter score. It's like how likely are you to recommend our business to friends and family? It's internationally recognized score. So it's very, very, very simple but really, really powerful because you can benchmark how well your building company is doing by the score, the overall score that you add up. But it also leads to good conversations if someone is feeling a bit negative. And, and it's a way of generating reviews, you know, if they're feeling positive. And what it also means is you're not waiting until the end of the build. I think this is, is what catches a lot of builders out. They always feel that they need to wait until the project is finished and been handed over before they can ask for a review or a case study. No, you're taking people through a process. You've already dealt with them at the concept stage, the design stage. Just ask for a review or feedback on how they found that part of the process and then after that how they found the prelim part of the process and then as they're going through the contract, how they found the process so far. And yeah, you don't have to handicap yourself by waiting until the, the very end of the build. You can be gathering this proof all the way through.

Yeah. One thing that used to work for me when I ran my own business and was working with, you know, business owners or high net worth individuals, they're busy people, right. So for them to go and take the time to place a Google review can actually feel like a lot of work for them, even if it only takes a couple of minutes.

Minutes.

So what I found helpful is just asking an open ended question. Would it be helpful if I drafted something for you based on our conversations and then you can edit it and post it and it takes all of the burden off the customer.

Yeah, yeah.

These days you could literally plug in, you know, a transcript of a call you had with them where they were positive about the experience and turn that into a short testimonial and then, you know, give them the opportunity to edit that. And that actually removes a lot of the barriers.

Yeah, yeah, you got to take the friction out of the process. I mean you can. Yeah, the NPS score is going to like when someone gives you a 9 or 10. The next question is, that's great to hear. What did you like about our service? And you're going to get that info that you can then utilize and you could just follow it up with a link to Google because you've got to take the friction out. You don't expect them to go and find you on Google and then find the reviews, send them a link that's going to take them straight to that spot and ask that they could just leave a review. And if that doesn't work, work because this is a campaign you're not just going to give up on the first time and then the next one could be, hey, I've drafted something up. It really mean the world to us if you could drop this into Google. And again, you put the link in. But yeah, that's a really good point. A lot of people, they got all the best intentions, haven't they? They want to leave a good review for you, but it goes into too hard basket because you know, you sit down, what do I write? And so yeah, you can take that pain away and make it as easy as possible for. And if they've already said it, you're just reframing it, then that's perfect.

The other thing that allows you to do is you can actually hit some of the objections, you know, that you get in the sales process with what you draft up for them.

That's the beauty, isn't it? You can get the review that you want. That's like not just going to be like a gray covering all aspects. It's going to be targeted because we want case studies, we want reviews, testimonials that actually hit a specific pain point or objection like you say. So yeah, we don't want people wading through like masses of stuff. We want to be able to pull this out in our marketing and use it in different areas.

The other thing is builders are busy and so if they finish a job, they're onto the next one. They're onto the next thing. Right. Following up with people, I'm sure falls through the cracks. And that's probably a lot of the problem around that. Where it's is they should be automating a lot of this through their CRM if they have the right process in place.

Yeah, combination of both. Yeah. Automating a lot of this through the CRM as you go through the process, but even adding it as a talking point, especially handover, I mean, that is a great opportunity to get some sound bites from the prospect who's absolutely excited at that point. Yeah, just if they're comfortable, just pull your phone out, start filming a quick video. The more natural the better as well. So it doesn't have to be high production either.

I thought you meant pull your phone out, pull up Google reviews and get them to do it on the spot.

Yeah, why not?

Yeah, especially with the AI tool like voice to text. You could literally get them to just speak into a phone while you give. Doing the handover of the house.

Yeah. Get them to hand over their phone, you jump on it, write the review yourself.

Easy. Done. We spoke earlier about skepticism with all of the AI content that's out there and how everyone's probably feeling a little bit, you know, drowned in content on special, on social media and everything at the moment. Do these types of proof we're talking about now overcome those challenges or is there other ways that builders should be thinking about that too?

Well, it depends on how they're produced, I guess, because if you're just too stayed and product production heavy, then it's just gonna add to the noise rather than cutting through the noise. So getting the attention of people, it's always been a challenge in marketing and it always seems to get harder every year. So I think it's really important to think about your hooks. What's going to get them to watch the video once in that first few seconds of a video playing, or what's going to get them to read the next few sentences in a review or a testimonial. But that's kind of standard in any marketing, isn't it? The hook is so important at the beginning because we hear top copywriters, they spend 80% of their time getting the headline right, 20% on the actual content. I mean the content is still good because they're professionals, but it just shows how important that early part is to get the consumption.

Yeah. Sometimes I wish I was marketing back in the 40s and 50s when you could just tell them whatever you wanted and they'd listen to you.

Yeah, look, it's a double edged sword, isn't it? In some respects it seems like, oh, that was, it was so much easier then. But then again it was a lot tougher to measure a lot of stuff then as well.

And you couldn't get the same breadth of visibility and everything.

No, the Way we can test stuff so quickly now.

Yeah. What about external recognition? So we've spoken about case studies, reviews and testimonials and touched on awards and certifications. What about things like media coverage and just diving a bit more into that third party validation. So stuff.

Yeah, well, I think when you, when you do involve third parties, you know, when you are going up for awards or it could even be, you know, media coverage as well. This is why a lot of companies, you know, spend so much money on their, on their public image and public relations. Because media coverage is really, really powerful. But you know, industry recognition, it all shows that you've achieved excellence and it's been judged by an independent body as well. So I think this is what makes it so trustworthy, so, so powerful and considered evidence. And the other thing to consider here as well is when you start getting external recognition, the, the added bonus is it's going to actually unite your team as well because it, it kind of creates this tribe mentality where everyone, everyone feels that, well, everyone is being recognized as being part of the team. This isn't just about a brand or the owner of the company. This is a reflection on the whole team and teams respond to that. They enjoy the acknowledgement and they have a sense of pride and belonging as well. And the other beauty is this kind of stuff, it's almost timeless. It compounds over time. I can remember walking into a builder's office and second generation building company, but the awards wall was massive and it went back 30 years and it just shows that they've achieved excellence consistently over three decades. So yeah, it all plants these messages, it all builds on itself and layers. So yeah, it's really important.

How do you get started if, I mean awards, there's a process, right? Right. There's industry people that, sorry, companies that run awards, processes you can apply, et cetera, et cetera. But when it comes to media coverage, I feel like that's much, a much bigger fish to tackle.

Yeah, media coverage, yeah, that can be a difficult one for a lot of builders to break into. But yeah, we have seen builders manage this successfully. But it may not be worth engaging a company to do that for you. But as part of an outreach strategy, as part of an ongoing strategy where maybe you've got someone in marketing or business development or a salesperson just trying to connect with people in the media and whenever there is a story about construction and you've got something to say, just messaging, but I mean business is all about relationships. So if you are able to build those relationships, you could land. And you only need one really, don't you? Because when you get that one, it's all of a sudden you've got a load more proof, you know, as seen on. And you can just say the channel that you've, you've been on. So, you know, another layer of proof there or featured in, you know, a publication.

Yeah, every now and then we get reached out to by TV networks who are looking to connect with builders that have done certain types of builds and things like that. There's usually a fee to pay to be to participate in those things, but it's somewhere between five to ten grand or something like that. It's probably not the worst thing to consider if you do have a specific niche that you work in. And there's those opportunities that come up as well.

Yeah, I'm always a little skeptical about those. It's not to say that they don't work, but there are a lot of companies where this is just a money spinner. But there are also opportunities where, yeah, you can pay this money, you can actually end up on the tv, which is phenomenal opportunity. And really it's not a lot of money for the amount of proof and exposure you're going to get. So there's good opportunities there. But be objective. I mean, we evaluate every marketing opportunity very, very objectively. We look at what we're going to spend and what we think we're going to get out of it. So you must go through that process as well. But yeah, there are opportunities in there.

You're right, definitely. All right, now we're going to plug something of our own. But this is actually really exciting. So we've got the State of Residential Construction Industry Report, which we've been publishing since 2021. This year, for the first time ever, the survey's live at the moment as this episode is going out. So the report will be published again next year in 2026. And for the first time ever, we're giving builders a chance to have one of their builds featured on the front cover. Actually, I'm just going to pick up the 2025 report. Report for anyone watching in video. This is the 2025 report. There's an example of what the build's like on the front. One builder who completes the survey will be able to be on the front cover. So talk to me about what benefits that could provide to a building company or us.

Yeah, well, I mean, can you imagine having a home that you've built that you're really proud of, featured on the COVID of A respected industry report that is seen by, by tens of thousands of people across multiple countries. That is an incredible endorsement of your work. And not only do you get to showcase your work as well, you just get to leverage off that borrowed authority that we've been talking about because you're connecting your company to the association of Professional Builders, but also all of the sponsors that support this report as well. So you've got Build a Trend and Houzz and many other very well known sponsors as well. So you're connecting your brand and your product with all of those companies as well. And it can create a massive amount of marketing opportunities across social media. You can be very creative in how you use this, but also it will help to galvanize your team as well because it's going to make them very proud of where their company is heading and I'm proud of the fact that their company's being recognized as well. But yeah, it's going to create incredible marketing assets for you that you can literally use for years into the future.

Yeah, I think of the physical nature of it as well, Russ. Like think about a prospect that comes into your office and maybe there's a waiting area with a little desk there. You've just got that, the sourcing report sitting on the desk and they're flicking through it before you come out. The first point of conversation is that's our build on the front cover. Like that's pretty powerful.

Powerful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lovely, lovely endorsement of your building company. Yeah, yeah. It's going to be very, very excited. I'm, I'm looking forward to, looking forward to this process and yeah. Seeing a winning building company with their home on the front.

Yeah. And if it sounds like it's, it's going to be hard to get featured, it will be. But there's also five builders that will get the chance to be within the report as well. So there's a runners up prize there. So, so gives a little bit more chance for more builders to get their, their builds out there.

Yeah, gotta, you gotta buy a ticket.

You don't have to buy it though. You don't have to buy it.

Yeah.

Figuratively. Yeah.

It doesn't cost you anything.

No. We'll include the links to the State of Residential Construction industry survey with all the show notes and stuff on this episode. So if you're a builder that does new homes or remodeling, jump on that and submit some of your photos and we'll, we'll check them out. Out. Well, thanks, Russ. That's been a very valuable session on demonstrating proof for building companies. Any final thoughts before we wrap things up?

Yeah, we have to be aware that I think we can get wrapped up in our own businesses. And especially as we become bigger and more successful, we can make assumptions and we always have to look at our business through the lens of someone that has never heard of us or seen us before and be objective. And obviously making claims is not going to cut it. How can we really demonstrate? How can we provide evidence that we are the best at what we do? So, yeah, look at things objectively, build up your evidence, compound it. And yeah, it will only help to strengthen your marketing and bring in more quality opportunities.

Perfect. Let's end it on that. Thanks, Russ.

Thanks, Will.

Also, a big thank you to our listeners wherever you are in the world. If you like the show today, please subscribe to Professional Builders Secrets on your platform of choice. And if you're feeling generous, leave us a review. But until next time, have a great day.