206. Why Systems Beat Superstars With Daniel Morton

Welcome to another episode of Professional Builder's Secrets. In this episode, I interviewed Daniel Morton from Jack App. Daniel started out with a hammer in hand and in just six years built his residential construction company into a business, completing over $70 million worth of work a year. Along the way, he discovered the key to scaling wasn't just hard work, it was having the right systems and processes in place. That journey led him to create Jack App, a construction management platform built by a builder for builders. Keep listening to hear Daniel's insights on what it really takes to scale a building company. This episode of Professional Builder Secrets is brought to you by Apparatus Contractor Services. Apparatus provides full scope end to end QuickBooks, Precision Construction accounting and CFO services for residential builders. If you feel like you can't completely trust your weekly and monthly financial reports or you feel like you're flying blind, Apparatus will rebuild and operate your QuickBooks accounting system and give you precision construction accounting capability you can trust. Learn more@apparatusteam.com or on the APB Rewards Partner Directory.

Every good company's got great people behind it that probably go unnoticed. If you don't have good systems, it doesn't matter how good your people are, they can't do their job.

Yeah. Talk to me about that scaling journey from a few remodeling jobs all the way through to a $70 million cut company that runs without you. Was it all smooth sailing?

We were landed in the middle of nowhere with no fancy tools. When I started a lot of hand digging, we got to do everything. We were tiling, carpentry, roofing, painting, we even did air conditioning. That set me up to when we started building. Have that knowledge base to build the company. If you're having your staff have to ask you every day what to do, where to get stuff, you kind of know that the process is broken, right. The true test of ability of the company is if a mediocre person can come in and do a really good job. Generally, that's off the back of good systems. Foreign.

Welcome to Professional Builders Secrets, the podcast for building company owners wanting to grow safely and securely. I'm your host, Will Blunt, and today I'm joined by Daniel Morton from Jack App. Daniel, welcome to the show.

Thanks, Will. Glad to be here.

Great to have you on. Now, you're a software entrepreneur, but you've got a bit more of an interesting backstory to that. Do you want to give everyone a bit of context as to who you are and what you're doing here today?

Yeah, I'm a builder. Started off as a Plumber. Had my own building company for 14 years now and yeah, a little, little over four years ago now, I had some, some issues in my building company, trying to run it end to end with some different solutions. And yeah, now I'm a software owner of Jack Up.

Tell me more about your building company. How did that operate? What kind of building did you do?

Yeah, so started off with smaller projects, well, of my own projects, you know, renovating homes, flipping them out and kind of quickly turned into other people wanting to build with us. And then, yeah, did some developments throughout the early years of my, my career. And then kind of about seven years ago thereabouts, I started a sustainable building company, sort of bit of a trend there and yeah, built it up over the years to what it is today.

Yeah, I mean you're being a little bit, you're downplaying it a little bit. From what I understand, it's pretty significant residential building company, right?

Yeah, we turn over about 70 million a year. Plus recently won the Australia's House of the Year, the HIA and the People's Choice award. So yeah, the company's kind of come from humble beginnings and we've built it up to be a leader here in South Australia.

So, you know a few things about creating a company that operates without yourself, then if you can also run a software company on the side.

Yeah, you could say that. I mean, every good company's got great people behind it that probably go unnoticed sometimes. So I'm very lucky to have, have a good management team beside me that, that run the day to day. But ultimately it comes back to systems. Right. If you don't have good systems, it doesn't matter how good your people are, they can't, they can't do their job properly. So that's it.

How did you make the transition from plumber to building company? And I don't think that's necessarily a common path.

Well, I say plumber. I was a general builder as well. We, I did a lot of Aboriginal housing in my apprenticeship where we were basically landed in the middle of nowhere with no tools, you know, fancy tools. It was excavators and hand tools. When I, when I started a lot of, a lot of hand digging, a lot of, you know, kind of improvising and we got to do everything. We were tiling, carpentry, roofing, painting, we even did air conditioning. There were evaps out there in the land. So I guess when I started my building career I definitely had that backing of the skill base to kind of be able to touch Every point of the build and that set me up to when we started building have that knowledge base to, to build the company from the back of it.

Do you think having that trade background is important for running a building company?

I think it's part of it. I think certainly early on when you need to kind of, I guess catch people out trades when they're BSing you. But then as the companies grows and you do want to scale, I think being a builder is less important and it becomes more important to be a process and a systems and a HR person more so than a builder itself because you know, you can get good tradespeople to work for you, but systems and processes and you know, culture is something that know you don't have to be a builder to do that. It's. It's a process.

So yeah, talk to me about that scaling journey. I mean from a few remodeling jobs all the way through to a 70, 70 million company that runs without you, was it all smooth sailing?

Definitely not. I mean, early on, probably the hard lessons were learned that trying not to do everything myself and getting better people and recognizing when people are good at their job and letting them run with it, but also giving them, you know, kind of those tools to, to run with it and do a proper job as well. So I think the biggest lessons that I learned early was certainly make sure you had good people on your side and then give them the tools to succeed and you know, give them some vision as to where they're going in the business as well. Has kind of been a big part of the early days for us and the hard lessons that we had to learn and change that, I guess mindset from trying to do it all yourself to let you know, yeah, good staff do what they need to do.

What gave you the confidence to start handing more over to other people?

I think I always knew that we wanted to scale the business and when I couldn't get the day to days done and that quality starts to slip from a client's perspective, that's pretty motivating to start to delegate stuff off and get other people to do it. Because I'm pretty client focused in any of my businesses, you want that best experience. And if that ever starts to slip, it's very motivating to put some stuff in place.

Yeah, I love that. I don't think many people describe it that way. It's always about how do I get more time for myself or you know, that like that kind of side of things. But looking at, from a quality assurance point of view is interesting as well.

Yeah. I mean, kind of the client experience and that end product that you put out is the end goal and how you get there is a journey. Right. So if you're not getting there in a nice fashion and a sustainable way, then, yeah, stuff's got to change. So I think we changed a lot early, constantly. Like there was a new process, a new system every month, every week, but eventually you kind of land on something that works and is repeatable. So I guess learnt that don't last on your laurels in those early days to really keep pushing the barrel and changing stuff up until it was right.

You've mentioned processes and systems a number of times already. Is that something which you found was a huge part of the success of.

How you scaled it was one of the main parts? Yeah, 100%. So I always give a good example. If you have a really good staff member, we always want to hang onto them. But the true test of ability of the company is if a mediocre person can come in and do a really good job. Generally that's off the back of good systems. So that's kind of almost a barometer for me. If you've got someone who's not an absolute superstar and they can come into your company and shine from your systems and processes, you know you've got it right. Because most of the time everyone wants to work hard and do a good job, they just need something to follow to do it. So that's certainly been a big part of it.

Yeah. And sometimes you can find people that you might consider as mediocre initially. If they're given the right systems and processes and space to actually deliver value, they grow and thrive in that environment as well.

100%. I mean, you look at some sporting clubs, they've got all the talent in the world, but if they don't have the right coach and the right things around them, then, you know, generally the results, the wins and all the client experience in our case doesn't happen. They just. They need to be put in front of of the right things to let them achieve. So, yeah, always critical of that. That's a barometer.

Yeah. I like the sporting metaphor. I mean, I'm a big sports person myself, but you always look at the successful clubs and people that aren't successful elsewhere, they can go there and slot into their system and just perform well.

Yeah, 100%. It's so true. And it doesn't have to be complicated as well. I think that's a big part of systems is if someone can come in and understand something straight away, you've set it up in a nice neat fashion. It doesn't have to be so complex that only two people in the company can understand it. And that's another thing as well. You know, staff always leave and come and go. If you've got so much knowledge and procedure in one person's head and it's not laid out in a nice system, then that's a major risk for the company. It needs to be in a fashion that if people come and go, the company keeps rolling.

Just just to be clear for everyone listening out there, when we say system, it can be interchangeable with procedure, process as well, right?

Absolutely. Yep.

So it's kind of a catch all for that. What would you say are the most important systems and processes that you put in place in your building company that helped you scale, that helped you give that confidence in the team?

Defined roles would be the first one. So not letting one person touch everything and do parts of everything. If you have an estimator, let the estimator be the estimator and control that and give them ownership of it was probably the first, I guess, thing that really clicked for us. The second is when someone does own that role, that there's a clear defined way that they do things. And then the third is different hold points throughout the company that control the client. So in our own company, one of the things we do is once they've finished design and gone through selections, we have a verbal sit down with the client that says this is a whole point, you can't make any more changes. You know, if you want to move forward here, we need you to sign the dotted line. And it seems like such a simple thing, but being a custom builder, we used to have a lot of problems where people changing stuff late, it would delay your workflow. And you know, delaying the workflow when you're, when you're starting out can cost you. It could be 30% of your work for three months by having a couple of projects when you're early on in the day. So I think having those clear defined hold points in your process, whether it be for the client or whether it be for your staff, and make them really well defined. It keeps the synergy across the company and know which points you're all aiming for. So for instance, our selections girls know that they have a set date to sign a job out that we're expecting to go to site and it's really clearly defined from when the job first starts and then that helps everyone achieve a common goal. So I think just having everything well defined, nice and clear of where everyone's going in the team, it certainly helps those procedures work well and they don't have to be complex. Yeah.

Talk to me about that complexity. How did you find the balance between making sure everything was super clear and that there was consistency across all the processes in the company compared to just having so much detail that it's just overwhelming?

I think a big part of it is not stepping out of your procedures too often. So one thing that we changed a little while ago, about five years ago, is if a client came in with their own plans, we 100% will not build it unless our architects redesign it. Now, early on, changing that process from project to project just can confuse the staff and they don't know. Well, I thought we didn't do other people's plans or just making sure that if you do have a procedure to simplify it, to stick with it, don't chop and change it all the time because that's where staff get confused. So it's not that it's not complex, it's that if you do have something that you stick to it and you live by it, so that everyone buys into it. Because as soon as you have a procedure and it's working well, if you then completely change it, you've got to have a really good excuse with your staff as to why you're going to flip their weld on end. Is it going to make it better or are you just doing this because you changed your mind? I think that's a big part of complexity of systems that the staff understand and live by.

Yeah, I guess. And then a bit of it comes back to training as well.

Yeah, 100% onboarding, people training. So, you know, sitting with other staff when they first, first come on board, give them a month of just sitting there, not doing anything with other staff and walk through the systems and the procedures, don't chuck them in the deep end too early. Is a big part of, you know, new, new staff success with systems as well.

Did you find that over time you were just building out system, system improving, or was it like a big bang situation where you, you know, you built them all out at once?

I'd say 60, 70% of it was built out at once. It was kind of running chaos for a couple of years, just getting by. Sure.

There's out there that know that feeling.

Yeah, yeah. It's not a nice feeling. Right. And you go home at night and wondering whether you're making money where your next job's coming from. So I think I consciously took an effort to sit down for a few months and build out a whole system that was going to capture a lot of those problems and then that the structures there to then keep doing smaller refinements and tweaking it. And I've also found that as I've scaled to that kind of next level, letting other staff take onerous on improving them as well, and then they get the buy into it. It doesn't all have to be you making those systems decisions. Your good staff can. Can guide that because they're there on the trenches every day. They know the little. The little nuances that you need to solve.

Have you read Systemology by David Jennings by any chance?

No, I haven't. Okay.

I mean, all of a sudden, I.

Must admit, I'm not a big book reader. No.

Okay. No, it just sounds, you know, a lot of the stuff you're talking about is straight out of that book. He's got this concept called a systems champion where it's basically enabling and empowering someone within your team to build the systems themselves. Yeah.

Anyway, makes a sense.

What impact did you see as your system started to be more documented and implemented within the business?

Being able to scale with confidence and accuracy, that's probably the biggest effect, I'd say. So one year we grow 40% and it didn't get as chaotic. We knew what metrics we had to hire with the processes we did. So for instance, we have maintenance carpenters that with a certain amount of handovers, we know what one guy can do. We've kind of tracked that over the years. So we knew that the 40% that was coming the next year, we had to get a guy three months before and take him on. So that our handovers were done in a. In a good fashion for our homeowners. But without that system of being able to see our forward workflow and knowing how many people we had to have for these amount of handovers, we wouldn't have been able to foresee that. So kind of seeing that workflow has been a big part of it.

So is that, I guess, a part of the systems you built out, like being able to forecast effectively and all that kind of stuff as well?

Yeah, that's right. So as soon as a job comes into the system, there's a predefined job program, whether it's in a lead stage or a job stage. And, you know, weekly project managers and sales consultants are sitting in and adjusting those start dates. And then off the back of that you can run a report to say, you know, August 2026, this is the slabs we're going down, this is the resources we currently have. And then I'd sit with my CFO or my HR team and kind of figure out, okay, this is where we're going in 12 months. Have we got the resources at the moment? If we don't, what do we need to make sure we have those resources in 12 months time? So having systems that show you where you're going, it just makes it a lot easier to, to forward, plan. Because you know, building, you can kind of foresee things if you, especially a design and construct builder because you've got the job in your pipeline, you know, a year before you're constructing it. So it certainly does make it easier to be able to foresee and plan that workflow going forward.

Definitely you touched on the simplicity of systems being important. How do you go about making a system simple so that it kind of, I guess a new staff member like you mentioned can just come in and implement, even if they may not be the highest performer compared to supporting that, you know, the long, longer term growth and making sure everything is as detailed as it needs to be.

I don't think there's a simple answer to that, to a simple system. But I guess making things visual is a big part. I know in Jack we've got like a pipeline view of our sales process, a pipeline view of our job stages, and off the back of those, when those stages change, we have automations built into the system that automate processes. So for instance, when an estimate goes into manager to check status, the manager gets an email, as simple as that. But the staff can literally bounce into the system and see what stage that job's at. So kind of mapping out the stages of every section that you take within your process, whether it be in your sales, your job process, your estimating process, putting that into a visual pipeline within a system so that any staff member can kind of, I guess take a look at that visually and understand the workflow of the job. So we used to do that in files and folder structure within a laptop to show where the jobs are at. Whereas now we could have a couple hundred jobs in the system and a new person can come in and see exactly where those jobs are at visually. Not having to dig into data and spreadsheets. Yeah, visually I think it's a big, big aspect of systems.

You've touched on something there, which I'm going to go back to the systemology book briefly because he recommends like looking at the customer journey, essentially, or like your sales process from start to finish, because that's essentially the core of any business, right? And then the key junctures in that. And to your point, if you're clear on the systems that support each of those steps, it's going to start to build the foundation of what you need.

It's like building a house. Right. Like every builder knows, you pour a slab, you put your frames up, you put your roof on, you put your walls on. Obviously that's in the construction side. But everything pre and post construction has got a step and a procedure and laying that out visually for someone to see they, you know, left to right or a linear fashion. You know, most people can understand that. It doesn't have to be any more complex than that. But unless you define those steps and how you want that journey to go with your client and your jobs, then staff member's got no hope. If they have to ask you every day, oh, what do I do with this job? Instead of logging in and seeing where a job's at in a. In a certain point in time, you know, it just makes it hard for staff to understand what the expectation is of them.

Yeah, I'm keen to hear more about Jack. It's actually getting me pretty excited to think about how this all ties together. But before we do that, I've got one more question for you. If a builder's listening today and they're feeling a bit stuck, they're not really sure exactly why they're feeling stuck, but they've got aspirations to scale their company. All the things we've spoken about today in terms of making sure there's consistency of delivery of product, you know, the margins are good, their staff are happy. All those great things that we've kind of, you know, touched around today, what are some of the symptoms or signs you think would tell a builder that maybe their systems are a part of the problem or they're, you know, inefficient systems.

Touching data twice, I think, is a big thing. So having to copy and paste things around doing double, double entry, I think that if someone can't log into a system and get an answer without having to ask you as a boss, then you know you've got a problem. The least amount of phone calls you're getting from your staff, that you know your systems are working, whereas if you're having your staff have to ask you every day what to do, where to get stuff, you kind of know that the process is broken. Right. They should be able to get into your data, whether it be your product or your spreadsheets or your filing system, and find something straight away. So I think the number one thing is get organ to start with. Organization and systems kind of work hand in hand. Right.

That's actually not a bad way to think about it. Every time someone asks you a question, if they can't go and solve that themselves, then there needs to be a process updated, basically.

Yeah. And I mean, then they're running off your brain and means you need twice the amount of brain compute in a day to get through your day. And then you end up being more stressed because you're having to think for everyone. And then you think they're all useless because they can't think for themselves. But in reality, it's probably your company and systems that's kind of making you feel that way. So if you're feeling that way, I think focus on the fundamentals. Like something even as simple as where does the plans live? They always live in this folder. And if they're not up to date, they go in a superseded folder. A simple step like that could save a phone call once a week from a staff member saying, what's the latest plans? Or what plumber do we use? Okay, let's create a register in our. Could be in a spreadsheet, could be in Jack of what. What plumber do we use? So the staff member is not ringing you up. Oh, what plumber we're using on this job, go to this folder of our preferred trade list. So just when you encounter a problem. Okay, what do I put in place so this doesn't happen again? And if something has to keep repeating itself, you know you've got a problem.

Yeah, it's a great point. I had a conversation on the podcast with a builder a couple of weeks back and we were talking about how he felt like he was the problem solver for everyone. And that felt good for a period of time because he felt like he could help his team solve problems. But it's actually diminishing returns because you end up being the person they go to for everything. I think that kind of ties into a lack of systemization as well. If you can't trust your systems. Yeah.

And I think from a staff perspective, if you're a staff member that goes to work and at the end of the day you've achieved all these things and you've done it yourself, like you felt like you've owned it, that breeds really good culture. Whereas if you feel like you have to bother your boss every 10 minutes, you're like, oh, is he pissed off at me? I don't actually know my job. Then they don't feel good. Then your staff retention rate goes down because they're not feeling empowered, they're not feeling like they're worth their position. So it kind of feeds into so many things, not just efficiencies and making more money. It's a HR thing as well, because staff, although they might never own their own business, then they want to own their career and own their role. And to do that, they need to be independent in their role. So if you can't provide them a system to do that, then you're kind of going to fall over pretty quickly.

Awesome. All right, well, let's talk about Jack then. So Jack is not a person. Jack is an application software application. And a lot of the things we've been talking about today can be systemized and handled through your software, but just without me completely ruining the pitch. Why don't you give us a bit of an overview of how it works and from a, from a builder's perspective, how it could potentially help them systemize their business better.

Yeah. So JAX starts at when you get your phone call from your client, we have a CRM system in built so that you can enter the client's details and off the back of that, do some automation in there. If anyone's ever heard of Zapier, it's like an automation plugin that a lot of other software companies have. We have that kind of inbuilt into Jax so that if you move your lead into meeting booked, it can send an email reminder notice to the client, email your administration to make sure there's a bunch of flowers at the desk for the new client. You know, you can kind of really encapsulate that whole process. And once a lead moves through Jack, you can estimate in there with takeoffs, bill of quantities estimating, produce a quote and a contract through there, have the client sign it, and then from there you can turn it into a job. And this is where I believe the real magic of JAX happens. So you can start to track your costs through there. We have an AI bill scanning tool so that builders can save time processing their bills. And then off the back of that, we have a finance modeling tool, which is our cash flow forecasting tool. So this really excites me. So in my own company, I can see two years from now what I'm going to have in my bank account. Basically, what Jack does is links in your job program. So every builder, you know, processes Bills, so they track costs. Every builder has a budget and every builder has a schedule. Now, if you do those three things and you do them in Jack, we will model out a cash flow forecast for you for three years in advance and you put your overheads for your business in there so that Jack can give you essentially a live business plan. I'm sure most builders are listening to this, have had their bank ask them or their insurance company giving a cashflow forecast for the next two years. Give me your business plan and you kind of slap something together. It might be through chat, GDP and a few spreadsheets, but the reality is, if you do use Jack, this cashflow modeling tool and business planning tool that's inbuilt to your finances, your programs, all your variations come into it. It'll spit that out for you instantly and give you that kind of peace of mind of where your company's going. I know for myself, four years ago, I had a lot of anxiety around where are we going to be in two years based on our current overheads, based on our current jobs. But, you know, that's all in the past now. Jack really helps you get that clear picture painted from the very front end.

If we're talking, you know, even. So the lead comes in, then you go to estimating how are you uploading materials and all that kind of stuff, or is that synced with something else?

Yeah, so you can have catalog pricing from your suppliers to come in your subcontractor rates and they can feed into your estimate. You can update on the pricing on them anytime, which updates your estimates. And then, yeah, that feeds into your job budgets and your contracts. So you can do purchase orders, bill processing, client invoicing, track your budget gains and your budget losses. That's an important part as well of understanding financials. And we have cost plus in there as well. So you can do timesheet tracking, you can do your build processing and put your set markup on top for a cost plus job. So we do cater for different sorts of builders. It's just not your volume fixed price builders. We do cost plus and also retention held on the contract price as well.

And is it all a backend system? As in like it sounds like robust from a financial management point of view. But is there any client communication happening throughout the build, that kind of stuff?

Yeah, so we do daily logs as well. We can do photo uploads, task management. So there's a client portal as well. The clients can log in, approve variations, you can do selection approvals and management through Jack So that your clients can be kept kept up to date and they can see any current invoices you've given them, they can see tasks you've assigned to them. And we also have a trade portal so you can upload all your plans, your documents, your live selections, the live schedule so trades can see what jobs they're assigned to coming up. They can accept and decline those schedule items as well. And they can also see any purchase orders that you've issued to them. So kind of anyone that deals with a builder's ecosystem can log into Jack and get the information they need to be able to do their job.

Even your accountant and stuff like that, like end of year they can just jump in and get what they need.

Yeah, yeah. So your accountant can log in and get your work in progress report and come in and check on your financial health. We link to Xero, we will link to QuickBooks shortly. So your accountants can drill in and get those accurate numbers to be able to give you end of quarter, end of financial year reporting. Cool.

And the work in progress that's following APB practice as well?

Yes, it's the ASB 1500, I think, accounting standard. So.

Okay, all good.

I hope I got that right.

What makes JACK app different from other project management software out there? I mean, there's so many of them, right? Like we don't need to reel off their names, but anyone in this industry has seen a whole, you know, bunch of different construction software management products pop up, especially in the last five, five years. What makes you different and how have you evolved to make sure it's really usable for people?

Honestly, I think it's the end to end solution. And I know a lot of people claim this, but from the moment you enter your data in the CRM to the moment you hand that client their home, everything that a builder would require is within the system and it's constantly being updated from feedback from our current builders. My own building company, I know myself having, you know, been in the industry for so long, I know what builders need and what the fundamentals are to run a building company. So I believe that sort of reflected in Jack and you can tell that it's built by a builder, not a, not a software company.

How did you, did you originally build it for your company and then just started to sell it to other people? Is that what happened or.

Yeah, that's right. So we built it internally and then basically my competitors started asking me, what are you guys using? What are you doing? It's quite strange actually. A lot of the clients of Jack within Adelaide in South Australia are my current competitors. And it's become a little community. We all catch up and talk about reiteration with the software and how it can get better. And not that we tender on work against each other, but we certainly compete for clients. It's been good working with my competitors to drive a product that we're all going to use to create a better experience for all of our own clients and our own companies.

Yeah. I think that's part of the ethos at APB is in. I mean, a lot of our community are builders from that are probably competing for jobs. Right. In their own local areas. But it's not about that. I mean, it's about, you know, learning from other people and leaning on people that have made the same mistakes that you're about to make or you're going through and all that kind of stuff.

Right. Yeah. And it's, it's a funny industry. Like, builders are so open to helping each other. I think we just all know how hard it is to be a builder. We all want to help each other through and get to that other side of running a successful company. So it's a great community to be. And I just, I love it. I love, I love talking to builders every day, helping them improve systems. Yeah. Just building something that we can all, we can all use and grow our companies with. It's. It's really. I get a buzz out of it every day. It's great.

I guess you got that mindset of like, there's enough work for everyone out there and it's upholding higher standards for the whole industry. Right. So that there's better reputations for all builders and all that kind of stuff.

Yeah, for sure. There's so much work out there. It's just. Yeah. We don't have to all compete with it. There's enough out there that we can all be successful.

Cool. Well, best place for people to go next to find out more. Is Jack App IO correct?

Yeah, that's right. You can book a demo, sign up for a free trial. I do recommend doing a demo. Takes about half an hour, but it really encapsulates what the software does and you can quickly see how it can fit into your business.

And for APB members, you guys are a rewards partner as well.

Yes, that's right. So there is a discount if you are an APB member. Yeah.

Cash rebate. Cash rebate if they.

Cash rebate.

Yep, that's right.

All right, get that right.

That's all good. Yeah. Jump on the rewards directory and just search for Jack and you'll find Jack app there if you're an APB member. But Daniel, thanks so much for sharing your story today. I mean, I've learned a lot about how you've got to where you are, and it sounds really authentic and interesting. I think for the builders out there that are looking for something to run their businesses more effectively, it would really resonate the fact that you've gone on that journey and built something for builders. So, yeah, I appreciate you coming on today.

No, thanks, Bill. I've enjoyed it.

Cool. Also, a thank you to our listeners wherever you are in the world. If you like the show today, please subscribe to Professional Builder Secrets on your platform of choice. And if you're feeling generous, leave us a review. But until next time, have a great day.