209. Estimating Without Overwhelm With Haydn Simmons

Welcome to another episode of Professional Builder Secrets. In this episode, I interview Hayden Simmons from Price A Plan. Hayden helps builders take the stress out of estimating by turning what's often an emotional late night task into a structured, supportive process. We dive into the emotions that come with quoting and running a building business and explore how understanding those emotions can transform the way you approach estimating and client relationships. This episode of Professional Builder Secrets is brought to you by Apparatus Contractor Services. Apparatus provides full scope, end to end QuickBooks, Precision Construction accounting and CFO services for residential builders. If you feel like you can't completely trust your weekly and monthly financial reports or you feel like you're flying blind, Apparatus will rebuild and operate your QuickBooks accounting system and give you precision construction accounting capability you can trust. Learn more@apparatusteam.com or on the APB Rewards Partner Directory.

The modern builder has got so much more to handle within their business. There's this pressure to provide and then some of the emotions that relate directly to that. Stress, guilt, frustration. Fear. What if I get it wrong? I've just started recently really listening to what the emotional aspect is of it for them and it really intrigued me. Builders are deeply emotional guys that care immensely about the project and the person and the outcome and that gets lost when they get into talking numbers and quotes. The old school builder never had access to this. They were never encouraged to talk, they were never encouraged to open up, they were never really encouraged to seek support. The modern builder has got so much access right now because, yeah, we do see estimating as far more than just crunchy numbers.

Welcome to Professional Builder Secrets, the podcast for building company owners wanting to grow safely and securely. I'm your host, Will Blunt and today I'm joined by Hayden Simmons from Pricer Plan. Hayden, welcome to the show.

Thank you very much. Will, how are you?

Very good. So super excited to have this chat. I mean, we were just riffing off air, which has got me really excited about what we're going to talk about today. But before we dive into the topic at hand, which is the emotional side of running a business and how that ties into the decisions you make and estimating and all those kind of things, can you tell the listeners what your business does and your background?

Sure. My background is quite a long and windy process to end up where I am and it's, it's been quite colorful and it's not always been in the construction industry. I've done, I actually did nursing, I've done furniture making, I've done delivering yachts in the Car in the Mediterranean. I've worked in bars, worked in the film industry. But at all, I really should have done construction from school because of my aptitude. The natural skill set was always drawing me back towards that. So eventually I fell back into construction, got a carpentry license and got my builder's license and ran my construction company for, for a number of years. And then probably coming up to about 18 years ago, we transitioned off the. I was sort of forced off, I had an injury, so I sort of had to look for another element to provide for myself and the family. And I fell into doing estimating just purely as a stopgap really. But it just continued to grow and the more I leant into it, the more I realized I quite enjoyed it and the more I realized the real need for builders to have some additional support related to estimating. So Pricer Plan has grown into a company that now supports hundreds of builders and companies all over Australia. And we take the pressure out of the estimating aspect of their business and we see estimating as quite a big system. It's not just about putting together a quote. We see it as everything from the time they receive an inquiry through to delivering a project on site. And we think about it in that framework and we've developed a service and support that helps builders with all those aspects of estimating in their business.

It's interesting you describe the benefits of working with a company like yours as taking the pressure out of that. Because there's not many industries with more pressure than running a building company. It's high stakes, there's lots of money involved, people are very emotionally connected to what's going on and builders deal with that stress day to day. And we were talking before about the emotions of running a company and also estimating in itself. Can you talk to me about what kind of emotions builders are going through that working with a company like yours or just generally dealing with their emotions? Better could be done.

I feel for what I call the modern builder. When I was doing my carpentry, I was working with an old school builder who saw the transition from all paper contracts through to a mobile phone and they would not have even thought about marketing and he definitely would not have thought about workplace health and safety, you know, hanging off, hanging off the sides of ladders and dodgy scaffold. So I, I think that the modern builder has got so much more to handle within their business and the pressures that come with that can be really, really quite overwhelming and significant. There's this pressure to provide and then so some of the emotions that relate directly to that is stress. That's probably one of the biggest ones. They're trying to fit it in, they're doing it after hours. They're feeling guilt because they're not provide, they're not much with their family. This frustration can come into it because they don't know whether they're wasting their time with a particular estimate or a quote, fear. What if I get it wrong? So these are all the emotions that are sort of just dangling in the background probably. And the majority of the time I think that the builders are not particularly in tune with the motions being there, they're just there. But most builders that would be listening to this are seeking out ways to improve their business and they go to what's best practice with APB teachings are, and they're looking for systems and structure to help them grow their business or grow themselves. And that's all amazing and that's really important. And then what they get from that is some structure and some systems and some processes to follow. I've talked to just hundreds of builders around Australia, you know, monthly. I've just started recently, really listening to what the emotional aspect is of it for them and it really intrigued me and I think that if they become more in tune to the emotional reactions that are involved in the quoting process and the building process as well, it'll actually help frame up why all of those systems are so important. The emotions are major, there can be joy as well. It's not all negative. I know I just painted a picture there of the negative side of things. But there's also incredible reward and self satisfaction and team satisfaction and being able to be providing and that's what can come from it. When all of these elements are intertwined together and they're working well, what impact.

Are those emotions having on day to day decision making and the performance of the business for builders that you can.

See they're going to experience different emotions depending on what stage they're on with their client. And I think that you've also got to think not just about the builder's emotions here because I think you've got to think about what the emotions are for the client as well. And being in tune to that actually makes them a better leader. I think if the potential for them to be a better leader and to guide the client through the journey because it's a massive journey that that client's going on. But you know, when they're stressed, they tend to probably rush things. When they're stressed, they make Decisions that might not be in line with what they need to run their business. Self doubt can creep in. It's like, oh man, have I got enough in that? How am I going to. Have I got, have I got that covered? They worry that the client might be think this is too high, so they'll react to that in advance and instantly start to cut things out. So they can start to make bad decisions for their business because the emotions are regulating their decision process rather than sound research and sound process.

You recently went on a road trip actually, and you just told me about this before, where you went up and down Australia and met with a whole bunch of your clients and did a whole professionally shot marketing program. What was the point of that and what were you uncovering along the way?

There's a few things, like on a personal level, it was just a great experience for me to Australia and go and meet my clients face to face. Right, yeah, no denying that. But the essence of why we wanted to do that was to showcase the reality of what things are like on the day to day for the builder. And I really hope that that series gets in front of the homeowners and the consumers who are looking at building a property or going into a renovation or a new build so that they can, they can understand what the builder is experiencing. Because I think that there's just far too often this misconception that builders are assholes, that they don't care, they just care about the bottom line, that they're rough, you know, and you would know from all the people that you connect with and talk to. And I certainly know that that is so not the truth. Builders are deeply emotional guys that care immensely about the project and the person and the outcome. And that gets lost, I think, when they get into talking numbers and quotes and whatnot. So the idea of that series was to actually meet my clients, try and learn some of those stories and showcase that reality. And it was fascinating, really fascinating. I learned so much. And then the things that I've learned, I can translate that back into what we do as a, as an estimating company that provides support. Because we do see estimating as far more than just crunching numbers. It's really about understanding the requirements for that individual and his business and his needs and, you know, trying to support them in their growth.

Emotions are complicated though. I mean, like from what you've just said so far, there's so many different emotions, that negative, positive that are flowing through the builder's mind, not to mention the client's mind as well. During that whole process. And emotions drive our decisions, Right. So how does a buildup even start understanding all of that and kind of get a grasp on it?

I think the one emotion, in my opinion, the one emotion that helps me deliver a better support for my clients is actually compassion as the primary. So you put yourself in a scenario where you try and understand the perspective that your client is coming from or try and understand where they're at at this current phase. And I think that the client's going to have a whole series of emotions depending on what stage of the job you're at with them or what stage of the quote. And they're. And I don't. No one's probably ever done this. And by no means am I a psychologist or anything like that, but I think that, you know, you think about the parallel between the stages of grief, right? You go through these emotional stages of grief from, you know, denial and anger, you know, depression, et cetera. I think that the client. You can almost phase and structure a program for a builder where they go, okay, I'm entering into a. Got a new client inquiry coming through, right? So we're entering into the fear stage for the client. So understanding where they're at and positioning yourself to be prepared for that, I think it helps them make better decisions and helps them educate their clients a lot better through the process.

Yeah, if you line that up with your sales process and really understand the most common emotions during those phases, that could be really powerful.

I reckon it is. So, like, the client's gonna feel shock, mistrust, confusion, fear, guilt, hope, excitement at various stages, remorse.

So if the builder's anticipating that, that's one side of it. But he's also anticipating what he's going to be feeling. Nervousness, guilt, stress. You know, if he's aware of that, I think it. Can you line that up with your sales process and your building processes. I really think, think there's a space here for enabling builders to be empowered, to be better leaders for the client and their whole team.

It's like what you touched on before. If you understand those emotions, you can offset them with processes and systems, if that makes sense.

Totally. Absolutely. Your response, your emotional response can be prepared. Again, an example was I found myself in a situation where I got put on the spot. And I know builders might, you know, they're frequently in a scenario where the client's going to throw a question at them that can be a bit confronting and challenging for them to respond to, like, why does it cost so much? Why are you asking Me to pay for a quote. Why is it taking so long? Right. They're going to get questions. It's such a constant negotiation and management of what their client's experiencing. I just know like an example that I can use like I was recently in a, it was actually a court hearing, it was at a QBCC dispute hearing with a builder and a client. And I was asked to come in as an expert witness to give my opinion about the reality of the dispute. I get, I probably do that maybe two or three times a year. Definitely don't enjoy doing it, don't seek it out, but it, sometimes it comes upon me. But anyway, my point with this was I wasn't prepared for the question that came to me. And when I reflected on it, my first response was like.

You'Re like you like what are you asking that for? You know. And the question which was a great question was asked by the client was she said, are you a quantity surveyor? And I said actually no, I'm not. And she goes, well, how do you have relevance to this in this, within this hearing? So it was quite a good question. But my response was like I got irritated, I got annoyed and I really found it hard to sort of regroup. But I regrouped and answered it with genuineness about the relevance of where quantity surveyors are versus a builder that started an estimating company and how they relate and got through it okay. But it was interesting. I wasn't prepared for that. My first response was frustration and anger and that would have come through, translated into that room. And a builder is going to experience that all the time. But if I had have understood where that question was coming from and why that person wanted to understand that, it helps me sort of quell the emotions and just answer it logically. I think that's just a good personal example that I just had recently where I was just so aware of when emotions rise in those, what can be really tricky scenarios that the builders have got to deal with.

Yeah, I mean a good example would probably be like you mentioned before, a client might push back on price or they might complain about something that's happening during the build even or something like that. And your first reaction might be frustration or anger towards the situation. But if you can look beyond that to the outcome you're looking to achieve, that's not going to be the best response to the client. Right?

Yeah. And I just feel for, feel for guys out there day to day educating edge, trying to educate their clients and what APB do and what we try and do. Is generally just trying to change this dialogue in the industry, because it's not really the client's fault that they're asking all these silly questions, or it's not the architect's fault that designs blow out. It's not the builder's fault that prices are so expensive. But the builders are the ones that have to be on the forefront of dealing with all those questions and educating everybody around that.

Yeah, it's never going to be perfect. But we talk about content marketing a lot for builders and how important it is to educate clients through the whole process from when they first find out who you are all the way through, even beyond the build, just so they may not read all the resources, but if you have the resources available to answer a lot of these common questions that come up consistently, they can educate themselves and therefore come to you when they're with it from a different point of view.

Yeah, absolutely. Re education, it's like going back the industry has the industry and the consumer almost has to go back to school again to relearn what best practice is for the building industry, because what's been taught previously or what's just the way the industry has organically found its place to where it is, is not healthy. What APB are doing in that educational front, what we really believe in as well, I think is key and it's really, really needed.

Just closing out the conversation on the customer and then we can move back to the builder. I think. I think it's really important. Like you might look at, say, let's look at the sales process, for example, and there'll be tons of objections you might get that pop up all the time when you talk to clients. Those objections might come out as it's too expensive or now's not the right time, or I found a builder with a, you know, A better. A better price or a better reputation or whatever. Whatever it is.

Yeah.

Every single one of those objections is rooted in an emotional reaction. And if you can understand how those two things connect, you're in a very strong position to be able to handle them. Right.

Yeah. So true. Yeah, you sum that up perfectly. And that's what I think. What good education and what good systems do is they control and they deal with those emotions in advance.

All right, let's shift back to the builder again, because I know that's where you've got the most insight. We're talking about the customer and how we can handle the customer's emotions. How can builders take practical steps to understand their own emotions a little bit better? And therefore deal with these situations that, whether it's, you know, during the estimating process with their subcontractors, with their clients, all the, all the stakeholders they're interacting with and even just day to day dealing with their emotions around motivation and things like that too. There's so many different factors to this. How can they practically start thinking about it more?

There are multiple mechanisms and tools out there now for the modern builder that, you know, we talked about the difference between a modern builder and the old school builder. The old school builder never had access to this. They were never encouraged to talk, they were never encouraged to open up, they were never really encouraged to seek support. The modern builder has got so much access right now. So I think that learning about your own emotions and emotional regulation is incredibly valuable. I know, me personally, in my business, the one emotion that I avoid at all costs is stress. That's what I consciously choose to avoid, stress in every situation that I, that I come across. And then I actively take steps to try and mitigate that and diffuse things because managing my own stress is more important to me. You know, my father had a crazy full on heart attack at age 59. I'm not 59 yet, but I'm only a few years away from it. But, and that was all pure. He was fit, he was healthy, but it was all stress induced. So it's my conscious decision. So self awareness. And I think that a builder, when he's, when he's sitting through each task, it's a really, each aspect of his business, each negotiation, whatever it may be, just start asking yourself, just take that moment to stop, pause and breathe and just go, what emotions am I feeling right now? I'm feeling great. I just signed it. I just signed a contract. Man, that feels good. That's a great feeling. As opposed to I've got to sit down and it's midnight, I haven't got this quote done yet. What am I feeling? Feeling stress, right? And then if you can cue that emotion, you go, then the next step is, okay, well how do I alleviate that stress? Or this is a great feeling, I just got that contract. How do I reward this? I go, and now for dinner with my family, you know, so I think being in tune to it, just taking the moment to stop and listen to yourself and listen to your emotion when you're feeling it. And then that'll give you the ability to seek out a tool or a system or a support that can then help you mitigate that or manage that a little bit better in the future.

Yeah, I think it's easier said than done though, isn't it? Stress pops up in many different ways, oftentimes unexpectedly. Like, for example, the time you're in court, for example, and got thrown with a question weren't expecting, you may have felt feelings of stress at that moment. So, yeah, what, what tactical things you feel like builders can do in the moment when they are feeling that visceral experience. And it is stress, but they haven't labeled it yet.

Oh, yeah. Well, look, I'm probably getting out of my depth in terms, from a psychological point of view, because I have a lot of psychologists, but I do know that there's parts of the brain that fire at different times in relation to stress. And I know that the, the frontal cortex fires and differently. And so when you sense that you can actually do teachings to be self aware that go, whoa, okay, I'm here right now, and I know that if I continue on operating while my brain is firing in this manner, I am not going to be able to make effective decisions. So being self aware enables the builder to sense that. And then you stop, you breathe, and you walk away and politely say, I just got to walk away, whatever that may be within those stressful if, when those, you know, confronting stressful scenarios arise. But it's, it's, it's really, someone wants to answer that question will do some learning about what the brain does. You know, I'm not, I'm not by any means able to teach people about that, but I know that there's lots of tools out there about learning about managing stress, managing confrontation, because confrontation's huge for the builder. Right? He's dealing with it, you know, sometimes almost daily. And some guys roll with it really well. They just calmly move through it. Other guys get fired up. So self awareness, I think, is the first step. And yeah, seek out a podcast or a book or some support from another builder who just seems calm and ask them what they do.

Yeah, having a coach in your corner can be helpful as well. I think back to what my mum used to always say, count to 10. She said, it sounds so simple, but it can actually be really powerful if.

You'Re in a moment of stress and breath work. My thing is for my kids and now they hate it when I say it, but it's like, just breathe. Because I observe when they're stressed. My kids are in a reactionary thing. My observation of them is, you can see their breath is short. And then, so as a parent, I go, just try and take 10 deep breaths. Just try and control Your breathing and then that is a trigger that can help slow things down.

All right, you said you're not a psychologist, so why don't we talk about something that you are an expert in a little bit more and that's estimating. My understanding is, you know, working with price of plan or estimating companies like yours can take a lot of the stress out of, you know, that late night quoting and feeling the pressure of getting estimates accurate and on time and all that kind of stuff. And it takes, it's a big burden for builders I think on a day to day basis. So tell me more about what you guys do and how you help with that side of things.

Yeah, very, very aware of the amount of stress and pressure that is on the builder to complete an estimate. It's almost unanimous. There's a very small percentage of guys that enjoy the process. So it's a big part of their business operation where they need support. So what we do is we look at estimating like an entire system. We create steps and procedures that weave into and they're intertwined within the teachings of best practice with what APB teach that almost incorporate that they do actually they incorporate it into a sales process right through to project delivery. So that's what how we see estimating. I think that far too often people when they hear the term outsource your estimating or get an estimating partner in their mind immediately goes to help me get the numbers right and that's it. But it's so much more than that. So we've got a structured process where from when one of our builders gets an inquiry, there's a series of steps that they go through and we support them with documents and information that helps the builder through that inquiry qualifying process. So and what that looks like is we have a free pre construction process template pack that they can just. It's very foundational, but at least puts a bit of structure in place for them. It takes the client through a budget qualifying step. It's called a qbe, which stands for quality budget estimate. That's a high level budget forecast on the project. Really, really important because so often, unfortunately the clients just really have no perception about what the reality of the costs are and what that step does. It saves the builder and the industry literally thousands and thousands of wasted hours prior to putting together a full estimate and chasing around subcontractors and suppliers, that's a waste of time unless you've qualified that client's budget early. So that step, the QBE is a really important preliminary step. And Then moving on past that, you're putting in expert agreements where the client's agreeing to contribute financially. Again, I know this is all procedures and practices that are within the coaching platform of apb. And then we move on to doing the detailed estimates. And our detailed estimates are really collaborative approach. So my team is pretty amazing. And we maintain databases daily that go back into all of the data that we put together for the builders. And our detailed estimates are designed to the level of detail that the builder does. Never have to go back and measure anything again for that job. I know a common trap that builders fall into with estimating is when they're putting together a quote, they have this habit of going, all right, electrical. Yeah, that job I did down the road was. That was about 35 years. This is about the same. I'll just, I'll just put that in for now. So they make provisions and allowances based on gut feel and experience. And there's value in that because they know their stuff. Right. And then they win the job. And then when they get to the point of placing an order or doing a purchase order for that element, what they have to do then is sit back down, measure that component again in preparation for that stage. And what that happens is they just end up in this little loop, this constant little loop through the job. So the estimating actually never finishes through the job. That's a really, really common trend and it's understandable.

And they might get a few surprises if the cost is a lot more than they initially thought.

Yeah, there's variables in that. It's a little bit uncontrolled, but it's also the biggest thing I think, is the time suck on them. I've got to go back into the office off the site. They've got to quickly put numbers together and so they're just back in this time sucking loop. What we really try and do and what we do do is we quantify everything down to the nail. So once that job goes live, we set up the project inside the builder's software. So whatever software management system they are using, whether it's Buildertrend, WonderBuild, Buildxact, doesn't matter. We transfer all the job data into their system, set up with all of their purchase order structure, cost code structure ready. So when they get to base stage and they want to order their cubic meters of concrete, they've already got a number right there. That's what's very, very end to end. It's a big sort of almost like an ecosystem that all has to Work together and that's the way we approach it and that's the way we've been supporting builders now for. Yeah. Coming up to 18 years doing this. Yeah. Right.

How did you fit in all of those other industries you worked in before you started this?

When I was young, in my early 20s I traveled a lot and did got lots of experience and yeah, but you know they've all, they've all taught me something. They all brought me to where I am and I'm thankful for all those things but I've done it. It's probably not even half the list I could probably elaborate on.

How does what you offer compare to like bringing an estimator in house and training them up? Like what, what's the, you know, the pros and cons of either side of that?

What I see is there's a point in their business's growth and they're building businesses growth where they can one afford but also become more effective when they bring an estimator in house. There's a tipping point there where it transitions and it's a bit of a different tipping point depending on the size of the business. So the big difference that we see is dependability because we're not an in house hire that you've got to manage a monthly salary with where a service where you engage as required and all of the learnings that we make together with our clients because we're learning about them with each project and their requirements, we're customizing things to suit them. That's company and a service based support mechanism that can roll on for have longevity. So I've got clients who have been with us for over 15 years. It's a very long journey. So one of the downsides that I know and frustrations that people have and why I get phone calls is I've had an in house estimator, he's been with me for two years, he's just resigned, he's moved on to another job and then they're stuck. So I know that's a big, big trigger for why people feel like they've come to price a plan because it's that, that long term dependability. And I also know on a financial level it's way cheaper to use an outsourced partner than it is to have somebody in house.

Yeah. To a certain threshold like you mentioned before.

Yeah, that's right, that's right. Once the turnover reaches a certain point the in house management. But we've, we've. There's actually another little tier in there that we're noticing we've got quite a large number, I'd say probably about 10% of our client base. They also have an in house estimator but we're working with their in house estimator and that anti estimator is supervising us riding with them. So there's another little tier in there.

So they're more like a project manager I guess of the estimating process.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We love seeing builders grow through that cycle to the point where they don't need us anymore. That's pretty awesome. But the value that I think that we're able to provide and the affordability of, the dependability of it is what I believe is a really big value to finding the right outsource partner that can work in with your systems.

Makes a lot of sense to me. You're just working with Australian builders at the moment, is that right Hayden?

That's yeah, we're doing. We have done some work with some New Zealand builders as well and we are running a couple of database trials at the moment with a couple of test projects in New Zealand. No issues at all with the code or anything like that. It's just more our database of rates I need to be confident with. And then in the future we are looking at Canada because my half of my family who work in the business, my wife is Canadian and Adrienne, she's an integral part, she's a co founder of this business. We work well together. We've employed her sister and we've employed her brother who her brother's a contractor builder in Canada so he works in the business for us. So yeah there is thoughts of Canada but at the moment where main focus is Australia. Yeah, New Zealand will be next and then Canada will be the next ticket if we get there.

Cool. Yeah. My wife's Canadian as well so there's a bit of there.

For any APB members listening today, Price a planner or rewards partner. So check them out on the rewards directory. Otherwise pricerplan.com the best place to go. Hayden?

Yeah, absolutely. Whether on all the socials as well as price a plan I think by.

The time this goes live you might have a new website. You'll have that video out we spoke about a moment ago. So.

Yeah, that's right. The website goes live very shortly and then that whole video series, it's a 12 part series. I really hope people connect with it and it resonates with everybody. We're pretty excited about it going out. So if you do see it, make sure you like it and share it you know, do all the usual things so that we can spread the word to, you know, the whole consumer market as well as the builders about what life's like for the builder.

Yeah, I love that. Cool. All right, Hayden, well, thanks so much for coming on the show today. Any final thoughts you want to share with builders before we wrap things up?

Look, thanks so much for having me on. I've been really enjoying the connections I've been getting with the APB since we've come on as a rewards partner. We're here to listen. We're here to help. Finding an estimating partner that works, I know, can be really tricky. There's a lot of distrust out there that they can't trust it. You know, they've stuffed it up in the past. I just got a whole bunch of number and data and I got nothing back from it. But we really do believe that quality estimating support really does make a big difference, provided, you know, you're finding the right collaborative partner to work with. And yeah, hopefully we can be that partner for some of your members. And if they're curious, just seek me out. I'd love to have a chat.

Cool. Sounds good. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show, Hayden.

Awesome. Thanks.

Will also a big thank you to our listeners as well, wherever you are in the world. If you like the show today, please subscribe to Professional Builder Secrets on your platform of choice. And if you're feeling generous, leave us a review. But until next time, have a great day.