213. Building Together With Jacob Oelofse

Welcome to another episode of Professional Builder's Secrets. In this episode, I interviewed Jacob Olafser, one of the executive business coaches. Here at apb, we dive into the unique world of husband and wife building companies. Jacob shares what makes these partnerships so powerful and unique and the common challenges couples face when running a business. Together, we explore the right balance between their personal and their professional lives and how you can put just strategic systems in place to make your company successful when you're a husband and wife team. I hope you enjoy the episode. This episode of Professional Builder Secrets is brought to you by Apparatus Contractor Services. Apparatus provides full scope, end to end QuickBooks, Precision Construction accounting and CFO services for residential builders. If you feel like you can't completely trust your weekly and monthly financial reports or you feel like you're flying blind, Apparatus will rebuild and operate your QuickBooks accounting system and give you precision construction accounting capability you can trust. Learn more@apparatusteam.com or on the APB Rewards.

Partner Directory specifically for builders. They don't see themselves as a professional. I'm just a builder. But they actually are. It stands out that this working with husband and wives is really a little bit of a superpower. They're building a life and they're building a business. So that's almost like that tension that happens between them in a positive way.

I mean, marriages are complicated enough as they are and so are businesses. So putting those two together and the.

Challenge is that they don't know when they're crossing the line because they don't set the line. No shock talk on a Friday at all, but Monday through Thursday, whatever those can go, what's the rules? That will work for you. And you have to be flexible, be on the same page with a strategic direction, and then go tactical. The fact that you are two people pushing the business forward towards that strategic goal means your personal things will actually come faster. It can work if you follow a certain set of rules.

Welcome to Professional Builder Secrets, the podcast for building company owners wanting to grow safely and securely. I'm your host, Will Blunt, and today I'm joined by Jacob Ulufser, one of the executive business coaches at App. Jacob, welcome to the show.

Thanks, all. Nice to be here.

Finally.

I think it's the first one. You're with me on it or I'm with you on it. So it's nice to be here.

Well, Jacob, great to have you on. You're doing some fantastic work with builders around Australia and New Zealand, and I reached out to you to come on the podcast because you're getting some great results in particular with husband and wife teams. So that's something I wanted to dive into a bit more today. But before we get into that topic, could you just give me a little bit more of a background on your experience? Just for builders that aren't familiar with you listening today?

Yeah, no, that'd be good. I've been with APB for almost five years now and I've been in obviously business coaching and so on for almost 15 plus years, so that's been an interesting journey. But just, just I think the dynamic of working with builders has really upped my game as a coach and making sure you stay relevant and up to date. But just the sector itself is such a dynamic industry and the people we work with, it's, it always keeps me on my toes, which keeps them on their toes. It's just amazing to work with builders. And obviously apb, our, our, I think our motto philosophy is, is to, to build and help build builders become professional. I think it's understated sometimes in our name and we want to create professional builders. A big, big passion of mine came off a coaching session just now, so I'm still a bit fired up about a strategic conversation. So it's always nice to have these conversations about builders and just helping them.

What's your definition of professional?

Oh, that's a good one. I love that question about professional. I just think it's obviously a big thing of how you present yourself, but it's also the other side of the flip side of how you see yourself. And I think that's sometimes where the lack of confidence comes in. Specifically for builders, they don't see themselves as a professional. I'm just a builder, but they actually are. I mean, if you, if you really look at what we do with our clients, specifically in the, in the coaching world, even in the membership level, you're raising the bar. So to be professional, you need to know your stuff, if I can say that word, like numbers, marketing, sales. But also you need to see yourself as that professional. So professional for me is somebody that not only acts it, but they believe it. So I think that's the combination. They are professional.

So there's an element of mindset there by the sounds.

Definitely, definitely. But sometimes it's. Once you get past that, it becomes even more challenging. But that first step is definitely the mindset.

Well, that was an interesting segue. But back to the topic at hand. Husband and wife building company teams from the ones that you've coached. What stands out to you about how they Operate compared to other building companies.

I think it's the dynamic. I think it's almost like a bit of a superpower. I think some of them would agree that does work with me. One on one or just outside, then the membership is. They don't realize that it's a superpower. So, yes, there's dynamics. Husband and wives, father and sons or father and families and their daughters are involved, sometimes brothers or brothers and sisters in the business. But the husband and wife brings a unique dynamic to it because they're building a life and they're building a business. So that's almost like that tension that happens between them in a positive way most of the time. But I think that's the thing, is it stands out that this working with husband and wives is really a little bit of a superpower. They just don't know it yet. So some of them need to discover that it's actually a superpower. It's not a bad thing because there's this stigma, oh, don't work with your wife or don't work with your husband. It's a bad thing. Sometimes it's true, but probably 90% of the time, it's really a superpower.

Do you think it comes down to the personality types of the husband and wives?

I think he does to some degree. But. But I think probably the underlying. That, that's like when you, when you put something on the stove and you just put it on like low heat, it's. It starts to simmer in the sense of. It's. It's communication. It's usually like, so what are we actually doing here? When are we husband and wife and when are we business partners or when are we co workers? Sometimes that's the case where the husband or the wife is the actual director and the husband or wife just works with them as a, As a, as an employee, if you want to say. But that's usually the thing there. It's like, so. So the communication part, usually that's where, where most of my work goes in, the rest of the stuff is business as usual. But it's that component of the communication.

Yeah, it's a, It's a tricky dynamic, I imagine. I mean, marriages are complicated enough as they are, and so are businesses. So putting those two together, what do you see some of the recurring challenges that husband and wife teams face?

I think the, the one that carries probably the most weight is, so how do we balance this. This professional. Professional builder being a professional team? That's a husband and wife duo that the public sees versus so when are we just husband and wife? And the challenge is that they don't know when they're crossing the line because they don't set the line. They don't actually put that dotted line down to say, okay, this is husband and wife time. This is professional time. And it sounds so simple, but you need to clarify that role. So first of all, I've got a role as your wife or your husband, and then you clarify that all. Okay, I'm the construction manager. And I'm the finance manager or whatever your role in the business is as directors and obviously the many hats that they wear. But I see the biggest challenge there is just defining, so when are we crossing the line and what is that line? Actually, so. And I do think the underlying thing is that goes back a little bit to communication. But it's also. I've heard this a lot. You are not allowed to talk shop at the dinner table. Okay, but have you. Have you put the line there? So when are you talking about business so that you don't talk so much? Shop at the dinner table with the kids around. And I've got families that actually love doing that. They want to teach their children and their family to talk shop. But you need to draw the line. I think that's the biggest one is they don't draw that line. The challenge is they don't know is a bit of a gray area. So when are we husband and wife and when are we actually professional partners?

So you're actually putting in a set of rules or guidelines around when you should be talking about work and not.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So it's. It's almost like, when do you switch off? Maybe like selectively on a Friday nights, movie night in my house with my two daughters and my wife. So there's no business. It's movie, it's popcorn, it's chocolate, whatever we want to do for that night. And homemade pizzas. No shop talk on a Friday at all. But Monday through Thursday, whatever goes can go. And on a holiday, no shop talk. So it's the same analogy with husband and wife businesses. Set your rules and that will be different. I mean, I've got a good couple of husband and wife teams I work with, and their rules are different and their roles are different. The relationship is maybe longer or stronger than the younger married ones or it's dynamic. They've got different skill sets, but it goes down to the rule sets. What's the rules that will work for you? And you have to be flexible. If you're too rigid, then it's almost like. But that was the rule two years ago. But that rule might not work because you had a toddler, now you've got a teenager. So you have to be dynamic in your rules as well. That you.

It's interesting you mentioned skill sets. I'm intrigued to see how the dynamic works from a work point of view as well. It's not just about, I guess, communication in the home. And I imagine there would be at times overlap between the roles as well, which might create friction.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, that's a big one. We go specifically the HR discipline and we define the organizational chart. In your strategic planning meetings and sessions. There has to be clear roles in the business and then you trust that business partner. Then she's not your wife, who is not your husband. And he's the marketing person, she's the finance person, she's the estimator, he's the marketing guy. Because that roles are very dynamic and very different. There's the fundamental, yes, the husband's on the building site and the wife's in the office. That always comes to the fore. But I think again, going back to our starting segue conversation, to be a professional builder, you have to accept that, well, actually my wife is actually better at the scheduling than I am, although I'm the builder, or vice versa. It's again, it's definitely. As much as you want to define the rules for husband and wife, it's even more important to define your actual role in the business because you've got different levels. You're the director, owner, and you've got your actual operational roles. And then it goes back to that skill point. What are you actually good at and does that benefit the business?

That kind of comes back to the fundamentals of being creating roles that are. And descriptions of roles so they're replaceable. Right. So it's not just in husband and.

Wife'S teams that that. Because that's the ultimate goal. If you, if you have the family side of rules set clear, what are we doing? Where are we going with this business? The next question needs to be, how quickly can I stop being the estimator? How quickly can I stop being the sales guy, the marketing lady, the content creator, so that I can actually build the business to become less dependent on us as a husband and wife, but more dependent on us as directors, as leaders in the business? Not the do it all, have it all, know it all type of roles in the business.

So you've spoken about communication guidelines and having clear role descriptions between the husband and Wife or just in the organization in general. Is there anything else you see are the foundations for success for this kind of team?

I think for me the key part there obviously goes a little bit almost like first of all, be honest with yourself. It's actually quite simple. There's a strategic conversation first. So you always obviously have to do that together, be on the same page with a strategic direction and then go tactical. A lot of guys mix those two worlds of strategic versus tactical. I think the deeper point of the strategic type of question we have to go and ask this key to the success for this business performing as we expected, the key for them to thrive as a husband or wife team outside of the business is always so that you almost look at the business as a separate project that you're running whilst you're running your husband and wife lifestyle that you want to create. So it's definitely having to separate it, but it's a simple activity of same page meetings. I've got a couple of the guys I work with, husband and wife teams, they've got weekly same page meetings, fortnightly same page meetings, monthly and quarterly so that they align with what is actually happening real time versus the strategy, the big picture of where we're taking this business. So the key to the success, there's simple little habits like same page meetings as often as possible. And that, that's been a great, great success for some of the guys I work with. And when, when it starts to get a bit rocky, my first question is, when was the last time that you guys met as owners and when was the last time you had a date night type of conversation? So you can separate those two. When did those happen and what was actually happening during those moments?

Where does that intersection happen? Those same page meetings you talk about, is that all work related or are you talking about the lifestyle you're creating as well?

Oh, it's actually two. So you would have a same page meeting for business owners. So you would say Friday mornings at 10 o', clock, have a same page business meeting. And then you would have the following week. So your fortnightly sequence would be husband and wife meetings. So what's, what's happening there? That's outside of business time. So that's like family time on a Saturday afternoon. You talk family stuff. And I'd actually have, I won't name and shame them. They will know who they are if they're listening to this. They've actually got a whiteboard in the kitchen. So they use the whiteboard in the kitchen so that they Know what's coming up in the business and how will that affect the family life? So it's definitely two separate meetings for the one part of your life and the other part, that's why I mentioned earlier is that what is that dotted line? Where do you cross the line so that you know you're crossing the line? Family versus the actual business partner world that you're in.

From a coaching perspective, I know that a part of the coaching process is to look long term goals and obviously a lot of that ties into how the business is run. But there's an aspect of it which looks at the owner of the company and where they want to take their life. Right. Like what they want their life to look like in the future. When you're working with a husband and wife team, are you looking at that as a combination or is it separated out?

I almost look at like a bit of a, like a branch out of a tree. So. So the first, the trunk of this is the strategic as a family. So as a family we want a business to give us X amount of income and X amount of a lifestyle as a family. And then we go one level deeper. So as the husband, what would you like to be doing in the next five to 10 years if the business reaches that goal? And then he might say, oh, I've always wanted to go on an exotic island surfing trip. Or the wife would say, I've always wanted to go and travel Italy for two months and non stop trip for two months. And then we say, okay, that's the personal goals. How can the business serve those? But that both of the parties know that that's the individual goals. So it's a very dynamic conversation from a strategic point of view. The two flow out of each other. So again, I want to use the two terms, strategic and then you go almost like the tactical route. So we at the APB do a strategic planning exercise with all of our coaching clients. We update that on a quarterly basis. So that's a strategic viewpoint. Are we, are we heading in that big picture? The big hag? The big picture we want to take it. But the tactical stuff is the small things. It might be easy to go away for two weeks to fulfill the husband's personal goal so he can do that within that big picture. So it's definitely tactical versus strategic and there's, there's quite a tension between these two, but it's, it's one and the same thing. And that's why I think husband and wives don't realize that's not a Bad thing. It's the superpower that you can actually dynamically do things together and separately. You got your personal goals and your family goals. So it's definitely possible. Unless you don't communicate it, you won't know about it. So you have to start by writing it down, communicating it to each other and making it part of the strategic plan for the business. And I almost want to say a strategic plan for the family, but maybe not. Don't have to go like full throttle a strategic plan. But it might work. Maybe you're that personality and it does work.

Well, I think that's the powerful part because I imagine there'd be a lot of married couples out there that both have a vision of what their future might look like. For example, the two months in Italy. But they've never verbalized that to their partner. And so they might be on different pages as to where they're going.

Yeah, and then maybe a good example, just as you said it is. I mean, how much would a trip for two months in Italy cost us financially? What impact would that have on the business? So that means my role in the business, I need to be out of that role. I can't be doing the stuff anymore. I need somebody else to take over for two months or permanently. So what does that look like? And the husband might think, well, we, we can live off $300,000 a year quite easy as a couple. Well, not if you want to go to Italy for two months. You need to earn half a million bucks to make that happen. So until the wife says it and verbalizes it, or the husband for that matter. Now the strategic goal will have to change because the business needs to be more equipped, better team, better systems to make the two month trip happen in the first place. It's so connected. But it's again, I'm going to reemphasize this, probably not for the third time. It's a superpower. It's not a negative thing. The fact that you're two people pushing the business forward towards that strategic goal means your personal things will actually come faster.

Bit of a sidetrack. Two months holiday. I know you're an adventurer. Where would you go?

Oh, me and my wife. This is on our to do list. So, so we, we probably want to do a little bit closer to home. We. I want to go to Japan maybe for a bit, for, for to extended type of a trip if I can. But our big, big, big thing is we would love to go to Italy and Spain and Portugal. So we want to like, like Spend probably like six weeks in each one of those countries. That would be like the ultimate, ultimate thing for us to go and do just because we've done the, the research on it.

Very. What's the main thing that you would do over there from an adventure point of view?

Oh, we had a food family. I think you heard it now. Pizza nights, Friday nights we have food family. So that would be out of the big ones. We would definitely go back to the smaller villages around it and, and just explore the local cuisine. We adventurous with what we eat. Not, not too adventurous. But we'll try something for the first time. So definitely going to be the food and just the culture you want to, you want to immerse yourself in the, the local people. We love. We love meeting and talking to new people. You know, we've been on a bit of a trip around Australia as well. So we love meeting new people and trying new food and things like that. So that's the dynamic is. And not take a lot of photos. Just enjoy yourself, immerse yourself in enjoying whatever you're doing at the moment.

All right, back to the topic. What I find fascinating, just listening to the way you're explaining the goals of the husband and wives and how you get there. It made me think about every business owner or building company owner has a vision of their future or they have some way they would like to live their life. But the fundamentals of how they get there, they don't actually change that much. If you look at it from the lens, you're talking about using the business to empower your personal goals. There's a lot of those foundations which, which apply regardless.

Yeah, 100%. And I think the key little secret sauce to. To a husband and wife successfully growing the business strategically is obviously we spoke about communication but is writing it down and then reflecting on what you've written down. And I love doing this in a strategic conversation with husband and wives. They say six months ago the two of you said you wanted to achieve this. How are we tracking against it? And if you didn't write that down, you wouldn't be able to maybe have a little bit of a debate about it of who did not do what, but also is celebrate the win. I mean that's so important. I've had a husband and wife team where they are aggressively working on systemizing the business and they forgot how much work they've done in three to six months. And because we wrote it down where they were percentile 30% there, now they're 70% there. And we actually looked at their systems. They're like, wow, this is a massive amount of work. And the husband turned to the wife and said, that's not me, that's all her. And you could see she was almost emotional about it, that she's acknowledged it's all her work. And it's those moments that are actually that makes that relationship even stronger because now they realize how good they are together. It's not an independent race. It's a combined effort to get to where they want the business to go because then they can have whatever they want. I mean, it's endless, the possibilities if you, if you look at it.

Yeah, that cadence of reflection is really powerful. I had a similar experience with my team just this week actually, where I could sense there was an element of critique coming into some of the things we were talking about. And so it took a moment to take us back 12 months to some of the things we were doing then and compare them to what was getting critiqued now. And the transformation was phenomenal. And everyone kind of just impacted them immediately. They're like, oh, actually, yeah, maybe I was being too negative. You know what I mean? And that's the same with goal setting. If you have it written down to your point, sometimes you feel like you're not making any progress and then you read that back and you go, hold on, I've already made a huge amount of steps in the right direction.

Yeah. And it's almost contagious. I mean, if you do like a three month check in review of your strategic plan, and that's the cadence we obviously at APB recommend is you do your strat Strat plan for the next year, next three years, and then you do your, your check ins monthly. But there's this quarterly check in and once you start to celebrate those little wins as you achieve them, you tend to become actually more successful. You actually tend to become more profitable as business owners. You get more equipped, more confident, which then is almost contagious. It's this not a vicious cycle. It's this positive cycle. It's almost like you can't believe we're doing all of these things because you're tracking it. You can actually go back 6 months, 9 months, 12 months to see I'm in a position where we can go back two years if we want to. Where was the business two years ago to versus where it's now? That's just next level thinking because then it's okay, so what can we do in the next two years? And that makes them excited. So, okay, well, Italy, two months trip that's booked and done and dusted. What's the next thing to do? So that again, it just makes this goal setting bigger, the goal setting more exciting but also realistic. You're not, you're not just chasing some dream that's never going to happen. It's actually in motion. We see it happen.

Yeah. Because otherwise it's too easy to get lost in the day to day.

Yep. But maybe just segue there, maybe just go there, don't. It sounds all nice and flashy what I'm explaining now because it's in the past or it's like I'm looking into the hindsight. There's a lot of work involved to get to those checkpoints. So don't underestimate this. It's not all L D to get this. There's a lot of work to get there. But the moment you realize you get, you actually can see what is possible. And I think that's what the strategic conversation and this, this husband and wife dynamic actually does. You push each other forward but sometimes you have to drag the other one as well a little bit because they scared or they're not confident. And, and once you start seeing this come together, it just snowballs in a, in such a beautiful positive way.

How does the coaching dynamic work with a husband and wife team or when you're working with any partnership when you've got a coach there? Because when there's just one owner, it's pretty simple.

Right.

You've just got a one on one relationship there. But there's, there's a lot more in play.

Yeah. Obviously it's three parties in that conversation so it becomes quite a bit of a interesting conversation sometimes. Especially when there's some finger pointing of he didn't do that, she should have done this. Then, then you a bit of a mitigating factor, me as the coach. But I always elevate this. I always tell them, okay, we are both in this together as all three of us together and the both of you are in this together. So we always. I try and set a rule. You are present in all meetings. Even though this meeting might not be specifically for your part of the business because you need to understand what they do. That's why they're feeling a bit stressed because they're actually implementing something massive in your business. So strategic planning, all parties involved, husband and wife needs to be there. The tactical they present but they're more observing, giving opinions. And that's where it becomes dynamic because the, the wife would make an opinion on the construction schedule and she's not really equipped to it, but she makes such an observation that it changes the whole direction that he had with his plans or vice versa. Something in the marketing world or the sales world that the wife is doing, the husband would make the comments and say, but why don't you just do it this way? And it's like a light bulb moment. So. And once you have one or two of those light bulb moments, the dynamic and the tension that's there to try and navigate a marriage and a business actually goes away because most of the time if they're both on the call, they actually know what's happening at in the big picture as well. So that it's still forming part of the strategic conversation. But I'm going to be honest, it is a challenge talking to a husband and a wife. And sometimes I would have to phone the husband afterwards or the wife afterwards and say, hey, I saw you held back there, why did you not say something? Then they'll spill the beans. And then I would start the next meeting with saying, guys, spill the beans, we're in this together, just spill the beans, let's talk about it and solve the problem or come get over this bridge or solve the issue, whatever it is.

Yeah, that's a tricky one. I was going to ask is there any times where you go one on one? And you answered that anyway. But then that in itself could create additional tension if you don't address it in the right way.

I think it starts probably at the beginning of the relationship. So whenever I start working, I tell them that I actually frame it to them that might happen in the future and keep it professional. I use our name, APB Professionals. And I say to them, as professionals, that will happen. However, the underlying fact is I will never keep anything a secret. So I will always make sure that everybody knows and everybody will know that I've discussed something with either husband and wife outside of it. And the next session we will start the session with that discussion. And by then I'm expecting you guys to have spoken about the fact that me and the wife or me and the husband have spoken because I'm not going to become a marriage counsellor. So my job is not to marry counselor, it's there to drive the business. But obviously we need to accept that these there's a husband and wife dynamic, there's people, there's emotions. And I will usually just start that conversation the next coaching session or we might have to schedule a quick catch up and say, is everybody on the Same page, but everybody on the screen, everybody connected. And if they say, yes, it has been discussed, then that chapter is closed or that conversation is closed.

Yeah, that sounds like really important, like what you're establishing at the very beginning of the relationship. So everyone is in agreeance that this is how it's going to work.

And it's beautiful. For me as the coach, luckily, it's never happened severely, like, oh, you're choosing my wife's side or my husband's side. Nothing is that as luckily has ever happened. Maybe because we frame it for them in the beginning, but I actually remind them, say, remember in the beginning of our coaching relationship, you gave me permission to do it this way. And they're like, oh, yes, yes, yes. And then everybody just. You just need to remind them, we're working with people and human beings. Just keep it real, keep it honest. And I mean, you're in a marriage, there's a reason you want to marriage because you love each other, you trust each other, but you also want the best for each other, which means you want the best for the business.

That's a great point. If you get permission documented on anything, then you're allowed to refer back to it.

Yes. You're 100%.

That works in a marriage as well.

Yeah, 100%. So that's. That's where you find something. Okay, so. So that's good. No, but it's. But it's actually, it comes back to what we said earlier. It's communication and what is the boundary? And that's as simple for them and for us in the relationship.

Well, Jacob, you've shared a lot of really valuable information for husband and wife teams out there, and we've got a bit of an insight into how that would work in a coaching relationship, which I thought was really cool. If you had to summarize what the most important thing is for a husband and wife team to be successful in their business, what would you say?

That's always a tough one to answer, but if you push me in a corner, which you probably are, I'll go for it. So I think my. That's maybe my. My value system and I think APB would definitely mirror that is. Is I think be careful of listening to other people here. Don't compare yourself to the Joneses. Oh, husband and wife teams never work. The business is never successful. Don't compare yourself too much to the Joneses. Compare yourself to people that have actually been successful. So put this practice, what you preach, type of technology or theology, whatever you want to call it, into, into motion and say, we are different because we want to be professionals, because we're following a system. And if you're part of the apb, you're following a guided process. I mean, think of the APB levels, think of our protocols. You are using certain tools and skills at your disposal. So don't try and listen to everybody else. What is it that you want to go and do again? Go back to our strategic plan. It's a customized strategic plan. It's not a blanket approach. We copy and paste it. Yes, the template is a template, but the strategic plan, when it's final, is your plan. So as a husband and wife, spend less energy on listening to other people and comparing yourselves to other husband and wives that fail and say, what can we do to not fail? And I think here's where the difference is. If you stop spending energy on listening to other people, you spend more energy on creating your set of rules, creating your dotted line, creating your, let's call it the B hack, the big hairy, audacious goal. Where do you want to take the business whilst at the same time, where are we taking our relationship and our marriage and our family? And I think that's where it becomes something that's very dynamic. And if you put in that effort, if you put in that focus on where you want to take things, then the results almost feel like it's automatic. So that has been what's really been working for the guys that I've been working with. I wouldn't say completely ignored, but they didn't listen to the wrong people because they were, oh, it will never work. Bring your husband in the business or bring your wife in the business. It can work if you follow a certain set of rules. And I think APB provides good guidance for that. Me experiencing it hands on, I'm applying APB protocols with these husband and wife teams. Some a bit different, some a bit dynamic, some a bit more challenging. But all of them, when I talk to them, they driven, they focus, they know exactly where this business is going and the relationship is actually getting better because of it, not worse.

I love that. Well, Jacob, thank you so much for sharing all of those tips and that expertise. It's been, I've learned a lot today and I'm sure there's husband and wife teams that'll get a lot of motivation and inspiration from it. The big thing I took away was just getting on the same page. All those things you spoke about, personal life, business, strategic planning. If you're on the same page, you communicate effectively. Sounds like you can break the trend and be successful.

Most definitely. Most definitely.

Awesome. Well, also, a big thank you to our listeners wherever you are in the world. If you like the show today, please subscribe to Professional Builder Secrets on your platform of choice. And if you're feeling generous, leave us a review. But until next time, have a great day.