221. Managing Relationships With Nicole Scanlan

Welcome to another episode of Professional Builder Secrets. In this episode, I interview Nicole Scanlon, who's the partnerships manager here at APB. Nicole manages more than 100 partner relationships across the construction industry, and she's built relationships with everyone from software providers to finance experts, suppliers, and more. In the episode, we dig into what makes business relationships thrive, how you can create genuine connections from day one and and the simple habits that keep them strong in the long term. This episode of Professional Builder Secrets is brought to you by Apparatus Contractor Services. Apparatus provides full scope, end to end QuickBooks, Precision Construction accounting and CFO services for residential builders. If you feel like you can't completely trust your weekly and monthly financial reports or you feel like you're flying blind, Apparatus will rebuild and operate your QuickBooks accounting system and give you precision construction accounting capabilities you can trust. Learn more@apparatusteam.com or on the APB Rewards Partner directory.

We forget that every single transaction or any person that you come across is a stakeholder. Every single person that you interact with is technically someone that you need to manage and build a relationship with. Communication with me, as the client can sometimes be left in the dark, we forget about updating them, communicating with them. Connection builds trust, which equals commitment. Relationships are the outcome multiplier, leading with authenticity. Showing up as my real, true self to build trust faster. There are no tangible takeaways that they can say. They gave me this. I got this spreadsheet and they gave me that. It is purely the relationship of those communications. Not everyone is fit for you and that's okay. How do I want people to feel after they interact with me?

Welcome to Professional Builder Secrets, the podcast for building company owners wanting to grow safely and securely. I'm your host, Will Blunt, and today I'm joined by APB's partnerships manager, Nicole Scanlon. Nicole, welcome to the show.

Hello. Thank you for having me.

I am equally nervous and excited for this episode because you are part of the marketing team at APB and we've worked together closely for quite a while now. So very excited to have you on today and share some of your expertise. So thanks for taking the time.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm really excited to be here and nervous as well, but really excited to chat.

No, no need to be nervous because you've got a ton of experience working with partners for apb, but also just working and building business relationships in general. You've taken our partner space, you know, astronomically since you joined APB. We have over 130 partners now, which you all manage the relationships with. So I think there's going to be a ton of value for builders that are listening in today around how to manage relationships and get the most from them. So let's dive in. Do you want to share a bit about what you do at apb, but also what history you've got with managing relationships?

Yeah, absolutely. So I've been working in the partnership space for probably over four or five years now. It started as it coming naturally that I really valued building relationships to a longer term than investing short term. And it just became naturally that I started to get into this partnership space. So I've gone through a different couple companies working in that space and really just developing my career. And I landed in apb, my first time in the construction field, which has been an awesome learning curve and something that I've really grown to love. So I've been at APB for almost two years now. It'll be two years next year. And what I do at APB is I look after, yes, all of our partners. But what our partners entail are pretty much every external stakeholder that doesn't service our builders directly through our membership. So we have our rewards directory, which is a directory of our partners that offer their services and products to our builders. So we build relationships with other companies that service builders and we can then connect our builders to them as well. So we're teaming up basically with other companies that can service our builders to add more value and a shared goal of wanting to add more value to our builders long term. So that's one pathway. We also have sponsors that we manage. So we host events all over the globe actually, so across multiple countries and we have partners that attend. So we have industry experts that sponsors vacant events as well as attend network with our builders. And we also have many of those as well. So a lot of those are partners across multiple channels. We also have ambassadors, so those that want to give builders to us to help and share our message. So we all have a shared goal of wanting to help residential builders and they come into our network in many different pathways. So I help manage all of those communications and building those relationships.

It's pretty complex because I think in business you've got like, from a builder's perspective, there's multiple stakeholders that you're dealing with, but the primary relationship is with your team and then with your clients. Right, but you're dealing with accountants and software providers and business owners and lots of different people from different walks of life and with different objectives. And I think the benefit there for the builders is like understanding that extended stakeholder experience that they're working in within their business. So how do you understand the different perspectives of the stakeholders you're working with?

Yeah, it's a really good point that we can minimize who is a stakeholder in your company. We forget that every single transaction or any person that you come across is a stakeholder and doesn't mean that they're directly paying you as maybe, you know, they're the one that is a member of APB or the one that you're building the home for. It can be as simple as the person that you're picking up the receipts from or anyone in your company that is adding value to you or helping you in that process. So stakeholders are extremely diverse and there's a lot more of them than we realize. And that can come down to every single person that you interact with is technically someone that you need to manage and build a relationship with. And that can sometimes be put down levels of the importance that we forget about. Oh, I also need to put energy and effort into every interaction that I have because we don't realize the value they have in your company as well.

You actually built your own home, didn't you?

Well, I did, yes.

Physically, you didn't actually know?

Yes, I did just build my own home. I've been in here about a year now, so just finished the build process a year ago.

What was that journey like in terms of working with the builders and being exposed to that whole journey from the other side of the coin?

It was really cool to see the other side. And it was honestly, I hyper focused on really seeing the gaps as well as the strengths. And I could see where communication with me as the client, the primary stakeholder to that company, can sometimes be left in the dark. We forget about updating them, communicating with them, and how much more they could definitely have gone more above and beyond. Maybe that's just me because I'm in the partnership space, but it was really cool to see the other side of the coin and to see things that they did really well in terms of the handover process and making sure that that's a positive experience rather than a stressful one. And yeah, it was really cool to see the insight into being, you know, a home owner now and what that's like interacting with a builder who I am aware that they're building multiple homes, they're managing multiple home builders. So it's interesting to have that experience.

Were you working directly with a builder that did the whole design and build itself or did you, did you work with multiple stakeholders there.

Well, they had a design team within the company. So we mainly dealt with the design team rather than the direct builder, I guess the boots on the ground per se. Then we had a property manager who was probably not doing the building. It seemed like he had a team that he was managing. So we directly worked with our property manager doing walkthroughs and check ins and making sure everything was operating. Very unaware of who actually was the plumber or the electrician or. I wasn't really bought into that kind of scope. But the property manager was the primary person we dealt with and the design team of the company.

Good business structure anyway.

Probably the best way to go, honestly. Minimize the communications.

Yeah, yeah, no, it's just the one we recommend as well. But never mind, that's a distraction. Okay, talk to me about why strong relationships matter so much in business then.

Yeah, this is a topic that I can really geek out on, honestly. The psychology of human behavior, which is studied obviously in a lot of depth. But in the terms of relationships, we as humans have a pervasive need and want and motivation to belong and connect. There's even a hypothesis called the belongingness hypothesis, which is just about connection is the main driver of relationships, which seems pretty straightforward, but really connection builds trust, which equals commitment. And when you have commitment, that's what makes a transactional relationship or interaction turn into a long term partnership. So to answer your question on why do strong relationships matter or why do strong partnerships matter in business is a risk reducer. And when we have trust, we have commitment, we have a long term relationship and that is going to equal less risk because we're building relationship with someone we can rely on. There's lower friction, there's resilience in that partnership. And the collaboration is healthy because you actually have a shared outcome. You have a shared goal of helping each other. So it's actually really important that we understand, hey, you want to help me, I want to help you. We both have something really personally invested in this because we both want to feel that commitment from each other. And when you let down those barriers and prioritize that, the bottom line is that relationships are the outcome multiplier.

See, relationships, I think most people would look at relationships and think that's a soft skill. That's something that almost comes naturally that you can just wing, I guess, without thinking of a better term. But you're kind of talking more like scientifically and methodically around how you actually understand the psychology around relationships and build the ground up. Is that how you approach it, it's.

Something that has come natural to me, but then I've realized with time, there is that science behind it and I can lean on those strengths for other people. Doesn't come naturally. People don't feel connection straight away. They may be a shy personality or they're not someone who is outgoing. And I've naturally always been an outgoing person. I've enjoyed having conversations with people. And I've also really valued learning about how other people interact. So it has been something that has come natural and something that I have valued and why I've ended up in this career. However, it isn't something that comes natural to people and not something that you should criticize yourself on either, because there is a lot more method to something that seems like a soft skill. You know, I think everyone's been in that situation situation, whether that be high school, university, wherever they've ended up in life where they've been thrown on a stage or to speak in front of people and they realize, oh, maybe I don't know how to just speak and feel comfortable even right now speaking to each other. We both probably have a bit of nerves. I know, like, I'm going to throw my partner in here. He doesn't want to answer the doorbell if we've got food delivery. I feel anxious. I don't know how to interact with this random person. You know, I think everyone's been out there where you're ordering takeaway, oh, can you do that phone call? It's actually just an insecurity a lot of people have, and that's okay. But there is science behind why that makes you anxious or makes you uncomfortable. And that's why putting that extra step in to push yourself to build those relationships gets you a lot further.

Let's flip it around then. If you're naturally inclined to build connection and relationships, and that's why you're in this career, how do you approach a meeting with a potential partner that you're trying to build a relationship with who might be someone that isn't naturally inclined to work that way?

That's a really great question because that's definitely the fundamental of what I implement when building a new relationship or a new. A new business partnership, which is leading with authenticity. Showing up as my real true self to build trust faster because they then see the authenticity. They see that you're being transparent, you're. You're being confident, and I'm showing them who I am, which kind of lets the walls down for them to reciprocate. So I, I Like to say, I don't want to hold my cards close to my chest. I actually want to be open and show them, hey, this is who I am as a person. Not just this front of APB partnerships. I must be, you know, this very strict formal self. When I show up authentically, they can then almost naturally match, oh, I'll be myself too. But then on the flip side of that is always keeping front of mind. Okay, I'll show up as my true self and I'll show up in being authentic. Not everyone is doing that on the other side. So it's important to have that front of mind when speaking to someone that this may not be who they really are. It may be a bit of a hard shell to start with. Or maybe they're not naturally inclined to connect with someone and knowing that that's not on you, that is their decision. But you are always authentic. Most likely is going to lead to building a connection faster by you at least letting that wall down first.

Do you have a toolkit that or a list of I guess cards, if we're using that metaphor, that you will hold close versus ones that you'll reveal in those first few conversations.

Transparency and really clear communication of particularly in a high stake environment like home building, relationships can build from getting a coffee at the cafe versus we're building someone's home. This is your livelihood, this is your company that you're running. Same with apb, we're working with partners, we're working with many partners across the globe. So there's a lot more of a high stake environment. So being really clear and concise from the beginning of of that shared goal, establishing the shared goal between you is really my first tick is instead of chit chatting and trying to understand where they sit, is you being really clear of like, look, this is really important to us. This is what we're trying to achieve. I want to hear what you are as well so that we can both align. I don't think there's anything wrong with establishing what your goal is. It can sometimes be a little bit of something we want to steer around the fact maybe I don't want to let them know I'm after a sale or a lead or whatever it may be. You can be clear and honest and that is also easily reciprocated when you actively listen to what they're after as well. So that's definitely my first point is to say be really obvious, be really clear. Show your cards on what you want from them. Because everyone starts a conversation with this back Foot of what do you want from me? I'm unsure about you. And that's the first thing is let that wall down. Tell them, look, this is what I'm after. I would love to hear what your, your goal is at the moment and your focus.

There's probably some nuance though. Like you're not going to walk into a meeting and say, I want your money.

Maybe not like that. Okay.

But as in, like if you're, if you talk about wanting to, you know, find alignment and move, like our goal is to grow this partnership, etc, etc, or from a home builder's perspective, whatever that objective is and being really clear about what the end goal is. So through their eyes, I guess it would, it comes across as being upfront initially.

It's a good point because every conversation would probably start and finish with I want your money, you want my money. Where do we go from here?

Yeah, exactly. There's a bit more very short conversation.

Yeah. Which would probably be nice, wouldn't it? We'll just all be swapping bank accounts. But really it's about what, what are we doing along the way? So hey, we want to scale this company, we want more, we want to get more from this, we want more leads, we want to close that deal or we're trying to change our reputation the way that we're reaching this audience, we're trying a different method, you know, those sorts of things. So that's really clear on just the journey of what that entails.

A lot of builders might find it easy to establish that connection initially in terms of building rapport and you know, creating that initial one to one connection. But I think where the real challenge comes is maintaining that after that first meeting and also looking long term rather than, you know, just getting those short term wins. So what do you, how do you go about approaching that longer term view with, with relationships?

Yeah. Converting a short term, quick transaction into a long term partnership is definitely something to establish early on of. I see value in this. I don't want this to be a transaction. I would really like to invest in what your goals are as well. So a really key part of that is the transparency and consistency over intensity. So that's changing the short term. Let's get this done. Let's just get this transaction out of the way and get what I want right now rather than maybe we should take it a little bit slower. But I'm going to invest in who you are too. So hearing about what their long term goals are and start talking in a long term approach of how do you see us aligning with that more than just right now? So long term partnership over transaction is our focus and that comes from transparency and honesty. So we're trying to prevent that drift and protect the commitment. When you talk long term with someone, there's a commitment of I know where you're headed. And that can also be a touch point through conversation, is I want to hear about how that goes. I know you're doing this or I know you're launching that. Keep me in the loop, keep me in your circle. I want to keep hearing from you and you need to reciprocate that well. So it definitely goes both ways. And it's something that can also really be easily left when you've got so many partners on your plate or you've got too many stakeholders and you leave them behind and you're only calling them when you want something. And that doesn't build a strong relationship. When you make someone feel used or only needed when you want something. No one wants to feel that way. So we always are simmering back down to that human emotion, aren't we? Of that drive of feeling wanted, feeling like you belong. And that is where a long term partnership is probably going to grow further than rather than short term transactions.

Yeah, that's a really great point. How do you go about making sure your habits align with that objective? So not just calling people when you want something and making sure that there's enough consistency in the communication so they feel wanted and feel that you are on the same journey?

Absolutely. Habits are the best thing you can do for yourself. Is making little things a habit to you so that it comes natural? It can be. Maybe it'll be a bit hard at the start if you're transitioning from, gee, I haven't given that person the time or day in a long time, versus implementing habits that are going to build a long term strong partnership. So simple things like that I implement day to day is keeping notes and keeping your information as up to date as possible. Sometimes we can leave behind, oh, I didn't update their number, I'll get to that. Or I can't even remember their name. I've, I know so many builders who have just this long list of contacts with no names. They're just numbers. I'm sure we've all seen those tradies who just have like all these unsaved contacts. We need to save that contact, we need to know their name as soon as we pick up the phone, as soon as we call them, you know you're putting in that extra effort to make sure I remember their wife's name when they mentioned that to me. And I know that they. Maybe someone just got married and their last name changed. All these little things matter. So writing notes, keeping your information up to date to help yourself. If someone calls, you haven't spoken to them in a while. You can quickly check and say, last time we spoke, we chatted on this. You can touch that point again. So it's always those touch points. A real key habit that I would really love anyone to take away is this sorry culture, which is we've all been in that boat where you pick up the phone and the first thing you go is, oh, oh, it's John. Hey, John, I'm so sorry I haven't gone back to you. The first thing you need to do is apologize because you haven't answered their email. You never called them back. You've left a text unread. You know he needed something from you and you didn't send it. Where are we building a relationship when the first thing you have to say is sorry, it's not positive. And I personally, within apb, keep myself to a very high standard that I am happy to wait on anyone, but they will not be waiting on me. And I don't want to start a conversation with apology. So keeping yourself to a high standard of get back to them, close that inbox, give them what they need. Which I know is easier said than done, and I know that will be a point that might come up. But you don't want people waiting on you because you need to set the expectation of what it's like to be a partner within my network is I will go above and beyond and make sure that I'm not apologizing whenever we speak.

I'm sure you're hearing sorry quite a lot, actually, from other people that are waiting on stuff. Yeah.

And that I love. I actually love that. I answer the call. I go, hi, it's so great to hear from you on a call. I'm so sorry. I know you've been chasing me. And I go, don't even worry about it. It is completely. Because I'm giving them empathy. Yeah. You want to chase the sorry so that they know that you're understanding and then you've got empathy to give for them rather than the other way around. It's definitely the best way to be. You want to be on the front foot always.

What you said about note taking and making sure you've got all that information stored, I think technology makes that so Much easier. Right. Like if you're using note taking tools, like AI note taking tools. We use Fathom, for example, and using a good CRM like we use HubSpot, everything just gets tracked in there. So the next time you go to make a call to someone, you have all that information at hand and you don't have to go back and, you know, trace it all down or to your point, not even have their information stored.

Absolutely. It can be, you know, we can go way further than, you know, just saving a contact. We can have note takers and summaries left. Every time someone calls, you've got their name, number the last time you spoke. You know, you can set up those systems really easily so that you have everything you need. As soon as that phone rings or which it should be, you're calling them. So when you're contacting them, you do a quick 2 minute check over and then you call them. You've got three touch points of what it is that you want to cover. One could just be a. I know you had the weekend off last weekend. How was that? Hey, have you had a chance to look at that particular proposal? No worries. And I know you've got a public holiday coming up. You know, it doesn't always have to be, this is what I want, this is what I need from you. And have you done it yet? It can be as simple as, I just wanted to check in. I know you've had a really busy period and that can be something that takes a partnership to the next level. Something that I've heard quite a lot in my time is when people say I've had a great experience, like working with me or working with APB in our partnership space. I ask them, what's different? What did you have a different experience with someone else that you've worked with? There are no tangible takeaways that they can say. They gave me this, I got this spreadsheet and they gave me that. There's no tangible. They gave me this. It is purely the relationship of those communications that they mention. I don't know, I just feel like you're on top of it or we talk a lot and, you know, I hear from you frequently. It doesn't always feel like I'm. You're taking from me. It's always coming back to the communication style rather than a tangible takeaway. And that is really what the point of difference is.

Yeah, I think what's standing out to me is it's an emotional feeling that they're getting. But the way you're approaching it is systematic. There's process behind it. You have things that you're doing to make sure that you're hitting those markers which are giving them that feeling and emotion.

Yeah, it's definitely systematic on this side, emotional on that side. And that is also really clear to them that they're can see that there's system behind it. That then I'm making sure that they're followed up. Even if it's as simple as having a phone call, no action is needed, but you send an email after saying, just to summarize, we touched on these points. Thanks for the call. It's not needed, it's not necessary. But everything's documented and easy for them now because they can easily reference it. You're making things simple, even sharing your notes. A lot of partners I know adds a lot of value when I go, oh, I'm happy to share the notes that I've taken with you. If they don't have a note taker or they aren't prepared, that makes their world way easier. So always happy to help in any way. That's very minor for you, but can actually take a lot off their plate when you're helping them in that way. So try to go a little bit further whenever you can.

So how often are you trying to stay in touch with the partners that you're working with?

That's a great question. I mean, we have over 130 partners and I do have myself set to a high expectation. I will be honest.

Remember as well, this is written into the manual.

So yeah, I was gonna say I'm gonna get called out here. We do have a 30 day touch point where everyone needs to be communicated with at least every 30 days. And I would say that it's unlikely that I'm not speaking to a partner before then. If I'm not, it is very obvious that that partnership isn't as fruitful as the other ones. I can always say the ones that I'm calling, leaving a voicemail, haven't heard back from them. We're not having as much success together and but again, I'm the one that's making that effort, making sure the touch points are there so that there's no. I'm sorry from my side. This partnership wasn't a success because of what I've done and that's really valuable and it's not putting the blame on them. But you're making sure that you're putting everything in so that your focus is a long term successful partnership.

Okay, now for the hardest question. Of the interview. This is something people will deal with in business in general, but also especially in partnerships. Sometimes expectations won't be aligned and a partner will come forward. They'll be unhappy about something that's happened. How do you go about dealing with those situations and communicating effectively with them?

Yeah, there's a few points definitely to touch on here, and it definitely happens. And it's not something to criticize yourself on. You know, you can't always have a successful partnership with everyone. Active listening is definitely, I would call listening a soft skill. But active listening is a lot harder than people realize. We always want to protect ourselves and put our two cents in. But when there's a disagreement or you know, you're getting feedback, you really need to take the time to listen and hear them out. I think a really key point is listening does not mean that you agree with them. And that is something that we as humans instinctively, when we hear something and we go, well, I don't agree with that. We want to, we want to touch on it, we want to come back. Listening does not mean that you're saying you're correct. So take a minute, let them say their piece, and nine times out of ten, they're actually just gonna kind of go in a circle and come to a conclusion anyway. A lot of a few instances I've had where maybe they had a negative experience with someone or even us, who knows? You just want to let them feel heard. You want them to know that you care to listen. That is really important because if you're not giving them the time of day or the platform just to speak how they feel, because it all comes back to feeling, that's not going to end anywhere positive for anyone. So number one, active listening. Let them say their piece. Let them say how they want to say it too. It doesn't matter. You hear them out and you let them say it. And from there I sound board like Will. Obviously I come to Will all the time. I come to you Will all the time. And it's always important to kind of soundboard off someone, share your experience, get their two cents. Because sometimes when you're having a long term partnership, you can get embedded in that relationship and really driving, wanting it to succeed. So I love to chat to you about it. And a point on that is when we talk about a disagreement or whatever it may be, my instinct comes out and it makes me realize the way that I'm speaking to you about this. It's quite obvious where we're headed or what the next steps are. It's normally just for me to voice it. And then I realize, okay, by the way that I'm describing this, it does seem like this is probably the next step. So going with your gut as well, leaning into that intuition that you may have and speaking to someone else just to hear a third party, non objective, an objective opinion. Sorry. Is probably definitely a good place to start.

Yeah. I think what's really important from all that as well is partnerships are a two way street. Right? Like if. If partners aren't answering your calls and they're not aligned with the values of the organization and where you're trying to go from your perspective, then sometimes you do need to have the hard conversation and decide to go in separate ways. That's not to mean that there's bad blood or any of that kind of stuff, but not everyone needs to be in a relationship. From a business perspective. You need to actually, it's like hiring your team members or, you know, working with clients. You don't want to work with everyone. In fact, that's gonna cause you a lot of headache if you do.

Absolutely. That's probably one of my key takeaways in terms of partnership is not everyone is fit for you. And that's okay. You know, we can try and we can try and fit a square into a circle plug, but we're really just wasting time here. You're better off to close that chapter and focus on who matters to you and where you do align. And to go back on what I said before. Trust is a risk reducer. So if there's an a difficulty or something's misaligning, if you're both got the same goal, shared focus shared, you're both working on the same goal together and that's still in alignment. The trust is strong. A hard conversation becomes about an alignment conversation instead. Rather than this was your fault and this was my fault or whatever it may be, it actually just becomes about reevaluating next steps. And we've had those conversations with some of our long, longest term partners of hey, we know we've got the same shared goal. That hasn't changed. But this strategy isn't working. How can we realign that difficult conversation now just becomes about realigning and sometimes.

It strengthens the partnership when you actually hit that head on. Right. There's been occasions to your point with long term partners where oftentimes you're making assumptions in your own head about what they're thinking. And the only way you can stop making those assumptions is to have those hard conversations and to your point, actively listen to their point of view. And then once you have the information, all the information available, then you obviously move forward from there.

That's it. You need to get as much information as possible, and that's through listening, asking questions before assumptions in action. So you need as much information that you need before understanding what the next steps are. That's really a great place to start, is to have curiosity when speaking with someone. Whether that's bringing them on as a partner or it's an early start to your relationship. You can. It's okay to ask them, you know, what's your background, how did you get into this, and who do you work with? You know, your curiosity is what's going to make them realize you're really invested in this, and that's that authenticity that you're showing as well. So, yeah, definitely active listen. Ask the questions, gain the information, and then it will problem solve. And I can get caught in that too, about making assumptions about maybe malicious behavior or understanding what their motives are coming in with. I've set your. My assumptions about you in a positive light. You've then proven that wrong is a better way to go than I've assumed. You're acting maliciously, but I got that wrong. You want to come from the other angle.

Yeah, that's a great point. Always assume good intentions first.

Yes, absolutely.

Cool. All right, well, let's put a nice bow on this podcast today. What's one piece of advice just to wrap everything up that you think would be great for the listeners to take away about growing their business relationships?

My final piece of advice, I would say, would be think long term. Think long game. And the bottom line would be, how do I want people to feel after they interact with me? It's probably something we haven't asked ourselves before. As simple as picking up that timber or, you know, whatever it may be, you don't think about how did I make that person feel when we interacted? And that could probably demonstrate a lot of change that you might want to implement. Sometimes we can act out of. I had a busy morning, didn't even ask them how they are, didn't do anything. How did I leave them feeling after that conversation? It all comes back to that emotion. So start thinking about that. Start implementing that in every aspect of your life. It can be a lot easier said than done. We are acting from emotion ourselves as well, but particularly when you're actively trying to improve your partnership space. That's a really great place to start.

Yeah, that's great advice. I mean, before every meeting, every call, every interaction. If you just think, how do I want the person to feel after this? That can be really powerful.

Absolutely. I always like to think after our meeting together, did they walk away thinking, this is going to be great. I'm excited about what we're going to do. I'm going to get that information that she's after. Yes, yes, yes. That's really what I strive for, is they're excited about the opportunity of working with APB and what that looks like, rather than I've just got the longest to do list and she wasn't that nice to me. It's not, not the way to go.

Sometimes they come across that way.

So that's okay.

As long as it's not me, it's all good. Well, Nicole, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. It's been a lot of fun. There's been a ton of value in there for builders, and if there's any partners listening as well, I'm sure you know this has just reinforced the relationship that you've got with Nicole, so.

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, Will. It's been a pleasure.

Thank you.

I love talking about this.

Cool. Well, builders out there, check out the APB Rewards directory if you want to see all the partners that we're working with. If you're not currently a partner and you work in the industry and you work with builders, check out our partnerships page as well and you'll be able to connect with Nicole at some point. If you've a good fit for what we do. But also just a big thank you to everyone that's listened today, wherever you are. If you like the show, please subscribe to Professional Builder Secrets on your platform of choice. And if you're feeling generous, leave us a review. But until next time, have a great day.