223. Selling Without Pressure With Tyson Lawes

Welcome to another episode of Professional Builder's Secrets. In this episode, I interview Tyson Laws, the head of growth here at the association of Professional Builders. Tyson and I unpack what strong sales mindset really looks like for builders. This isn't about being pushy or salesy. It's about showing up as a calm, clear professional who can guide people through big financial decisions like buying a home. If you want sales conversations to feel easier and more natural, this episode will give you the tips and tools you need to make that happen. This episode of Professional Builder Secrets is brought to you by Apparatus Contractor Services. Apparatus provides full scope, end to end QuickBooks, Precision Construction accounting and CFO services for residential builders. If you feel like you can't completely trust your weekly and monthly financial reports or you feel like you're flying blind, Apparatus will rebuild and operate your QuickBooks accounting system and give you precision construction accounting capability you can trust. Learn more@apparatus team.com or on the APB Rewards Partner Directory.

Your sales is just a mirror. Unless you understand yourself and you've overcome those objections within yourself, then you're never actually going to overcome them. It's the six inches between there is.

Most builders, in fact, they're great at building homes, yes, but not necessarily thinking, I want to be a salesperson. In fact, most of them are probably thinking, I hate that concept.

Most of us have a dysfunctional relationship to sales. Where your resistance is is where your task is. Whatever we resist will persist. Instead of being a salesperson, become a trusted advisor. You're supporting someone through a decision that is probably one of, if not the biggest, financial decisions that they're going to make. Intent counts way more than technique does. People will buy from the person that they trust or sales. It forces you to grow because if you don't, you're going to get left behind.

Welcome to Professional Builder Secrets, the podcast for building company owners wanting to grow safely and securely. I'm your host, Will Blunt, and today I'm joined by APB's head of growth, Tyson Laws. Tyson, welcome to the show.

Thanks, Will. Happy to be here and thank you for the invitation.

Just for the listeners out there that don't have the understanding of what you've done in your career and why you're here today. Can you tell us a bit about that?

I've always been fascinated by human behavior and human performance, and that started at a very young age. So my dad's actually an Olympic swimming coach and I grew up going to training sessions at 4am listening to Tony Robbins tapes in the car. You know, that's kind of been embedded in me from a very young age. So high performance and human behavior has really been a part of what I've been interested in which led me to really work with some of the best in the space in entrepreneurship, sales and high performance and personal development in general. So I started my career roughly 10 years ago in sort of the business consulting, but also sales and entrepreneurship space. And you know, I was working from very quickly working with businesses anywhere from pre startup to all the way from 100 million in revenue on different, like different topics. And what really I found was that business is just a reflection of you. So unless you're growing, the business won't grow and we limit our growth. And I then found whilst I was stepping into sales and having, you know, being mentored by some of the best in the sales industry in the space at the time, that sales is the closest thing to running your own business. And if you're in business, you're probably doing sales right. So that's what led me towards sales. Again, the way that I frame it to my team as well is sales is just a mirror. So bringing back to, you know, you can have all the techniques, you can have all the tools, you can have all the boom lines and the objection handling, but unless you understand yourself and you've overcome those objections within yourself, then you're never actually going to overcome them when you're chatting to people. So that's a long way around of saying that's what led me towards sales. I've been in this industry for 10 plus years. I've worked with again some of the greats in the industry and I've just been obsessed with human behavior and this vehicle of sales, and this is why I love sales so much, is such a beautiful vehicle because again it forces you to grow because if you don't again, you're going to get left behind and you're going to limit yourself. And, and again, if we apply that to builders in the space, it's well when, when you're starting out or just in general, you're going to be doing some form of selling. Whether you're still selling directly or you're selling, you're selling your team on an idea and a vision. You know, it's all, all about that. So hopefully that answers your question mark. It does.

I've got another one to follow up though. You know what's really interesting, you said sales is the closest thing to entrepreneurship in terms of you fit in the organization, which makes sense. But if you flip that equation on its head and say entrepreneurship requires sales. Like you mentioned, builders out there are selling in some respect. As a sales professional, you're choosing your path. You're like, I enjoy doing this. I'm getting more skills in this space, I'm getting better at this. As an entrepreneur, you're not necessarily choosing to be a salesperson. Most builders, in fact, they're great at building homes, but not necessarily thinking, I want to be a salesperson. In fact, most of them are probably thinking, I hate that concept.

Yeah.

So why is that? And how do they overcome that barrier?

Again, like builders can be great at their craft and then business and sales is just a whole nother skill set, Right. But you can go down so many different avenues and layers here. But one of the first things that sort of pops up if I just zoom out and look meta is most of us have a dysfunctional relationship to sales, right? We've probably been sold something we haven't wanted before. Classic foot to throat sales, you know, buyer's remorse. We've been in that situation where people are pushy and we don't really want to be that person, right? So what often happens is we have that resistance towards it. So if we have a resistance towards being a buyer, right, because we don't want to be sold to, therefore we're going to have a dysfunctional relationship to sales. And that actually just creates this relationship where it just becomes weird. Like it, the buyers don't really trust the people that they're speaking to. The sales salesperson don't want to come across as pushy or that person, you know, typical snake oil salesperson. And that leads to that piece. So there's a saying, where your resistance is, is where your task is. So if we resist the sales aspect of the business, even though we don't want it, again, that's just going to limit our growth, right. And again, most builders probably know what to do, like practically, right? Like if, if that lead comes in, we should probably reach out to them in a timely manner. We should probably follow that person. That said, they'll get back to us. We should probably ask that question and you know, be present within the sales call. It's pretty basic and intuitive stuff, like let's do the behavior that's going to naturally lead us to the outcome. But it's like, why, why don't we? And oftentimes, like one of my mentors, he used to say, I could give two people all the tools, the systems, the frameworks, one will go make tens of millions of dollars and the other person won't. And I'm using the G rated version. But what's the difference between those two people? It's the six inches between their ears, right. It's the mindset, it's the psychology, it's the beliefs. So if we, whatever we resist will persist. And unless we lean into understanding what our relationships to sales is and where those, and you can go micro where all those little blocks are, it'll continue to show up. Sales is just a mirror, like I said earlier, like off the back end of that. What I often say as well, again, you can have all the tools, the techniques, the frameworks, all the boom lines, all the objection handling, but unless you have the right intent, the technique's not going to count. Technique's important, but intent counts way more than technique does.

Is it essential to be a salesperson as a business owner or do you have a choice?

I think every relationship requires some level of selling, so I don't think you have a choice. I really don't. Like I'm selling the audience right now on my ideas. By just communicating. Right. Like you and I like in a conversation, we'll be selling each other on ideas like it doesn't matter if you don't no longer are responsible for the sales in your organization. You're going to have to sell in one way, shape or form or support somebody who is as well.

I'm going to have my guard up next time we're having a conversation. Now what's going to sell me this time? How do builders make that shift to start thinking about sales conversations differently then?

Yeah, I think again there's so many different ways you can look at this. But again, if you think about a classic salesperson, right. What do you think about? You think about cold calling, manipulation, pressure tactics, greedy, non trusting, selling to anyone, even if they don't need it. And of course we don't want to be like that. Right, Right. And again, that's half the half. The issue is we think sales is that. So the way I like to reframe it is instead of being a salesperson, become a trusted advisor. So what's a trusted advisor? It's somebody who asks questions to understand and support the client to make a good decision. Because again, like if you think about it as a builder, you're supporting someone through a decision that is probably one of, if not the biggest financial decisions that they're going to make and you have context that they don't. You are an advisor, you have skills, knowledge and experience in the specific industry that they don't. So again, being a trusted advisor, it's supporting those potential clients or clients who are overwhelmed. So they hear the horror stories, you know, about the builders that, you know, their friends that had a terrible experience with the builder, you know, and they're thinking, are we making a mistake? You know, are we extending ourselves? Are we going to get ripped off? Will this go wrong again? If they've had experience like that in the past, will our costs blow out? Timelines, variations, those types of things. So as a trusted advisor, we're really helping people make smart, informed, emotionally grounded decisions. It's human first and trust first versus here's the features and benefits because at the end of the day, that's what's going to help a person make a decision.

How do you take steps towards becoming that trusted advisor? Because every builder listening out there, they are an expert in what they do and they understand it, as you mentioned, way better than the client that they're talking to. But how do they understand how they can portray that to the client? Well, I'm just imagining my conversations with builders over the years and they're holding something back, not deliberately, just because they, they're not meeting me at the point I'm at in my journey. They're not necessarily understanding that I'm 20 years behind them in terms of knowledge about the building process, if that makes sense. So it's like an educational piece around there, I think.

Yeah, yeah. So there's a couple of quotes that come up. It's questions are the answer and I just had it, now I've lost it. Questions are the answer and meeting somebody where they're at. Right. So, and it's assumptions. There's two killers. The two biggest kills of sales is time and need. Sorry, three biggest killers of sales. Time need is an assumptions. Right. So if we assume that they know what we know, we have so many different cognitive biases when it comes to our frame of reference. Right. We delete, distort and generalize based on our skills, our knowledge, our past experience. So it's almost like having an empathy. Like the empathy piece of like, how do I put myself into their shoes? How do I understand where they're at and not only what they're saying to me, but also what they're not saying. So how do like people feel you before they hear you? And 80% of communication is non verbal. So again, like, how do we lean into understanding and like essentially asking questions to see where they're at so we can support them along the journey and help them Feel grounded and less overwhelmed.

Yeah, absolutely. And, and to your point, it sounds like you've just got to ask the right questions to start understanding that better.

Yeah, exactly. And if you are thinking about what's going on, if the talk track in your mind is, I don't want to say the wrong thing, I don't want to come across as XYZ abc, I don't want to be that salesperson, then all you're thinking about is you, what about them? Right. So if you can start to step into what that trusted advisor looks like supporting somebody and, and having the right intent as you go into the conversations, you then can be more present and intuitively ask the right questions. Again, you could have the best sales script in the world and follow the best process. But again, if they're not feeling like you're present and they can trust you, it doesn't matter. It really doesn't.

How do you work on that, your internal state that's holding you back? How do you get out of your own way? Because it sounds like that might be one of the biggest hurdles.

There's probably like high level overviews and then there's like deep grounded things. Right. So I think like, look, a practical tool like debriefing what comes up, like, what are some of the common objections that come up through through a sales conversation? Right. That's a good way to start. Oftentimes, oftentimes our, the common objections that come up for us oftentimes things we haven't dealt with within ourselves. So if we get. I need to think about it a lot as an example, it's like, well, where in your life like is you having to think about it showing up? And that's, it's a great frame. It's like, well, if you're accepting that, that objection as an example, it's because you haven't dealt with it within yourself. So it's really going internal and you have to do a lot of debriefing and you have to like really be honest with yourself about. Yeah. The common things that, the common resistances that you have towards sales or money or those types of things. So that's like one way to look at it and you have to go quite deep there. But another way is again, just practically like just checking your intent before every call. Right. So if your intent is to serve, how are you going to show up? One of my mentors, when I first started doing sales, I first started doing high ticket sales and you know, I was, I was quite nervous. I was just getting into It. And I was messaging her before this, this closing conversation, and I was like, you know, what if I stuff up? What if I don't say the right thing? What if, again, it's all about me? And she said something to me that absolutely shook me. And it just changed the way that I saw the world and sales just in general. And it still shakes me to this day. She said, tyson, what would you do if you knew you could not fail? How would you show up? What would you do? And I was like, okay, well, I'd probably relax a little bit more. I'd listen, I'd probably ask better questions. I'd enjoy the process and really get to know them, because I know, I know I'm going to get the sale anyway. So, again, it's. So that leads. Leads to, well, okay, what's my relationship to failure? And that's even a bigger and deeper conversation.

Right.

But it's looking at our relationship to the things that are really holding us, holding us back. And they show up in the sales conversation because sales is just a mirror. You really just. You really have to be, reflect and, and debrief and really go through and be honest with yourself. And it starts small. It starts small. You know, it could just be you're noticing when that referral comes through that you're delaying calling them. It's like, oh, interesting. Okay, well, what's a better outcome? What do I need to do to help myself be in a state where I can be present and call them without delaying? Because we know that the sooner you call somebody, the more likely is that they will go with you. Yeah, that's a long way.

There's a million psychological reasons why you wouldn't call them straight away.

Exactly.

You said something really powerful there and you skimmed over it. So I want to take a step back and go there. You mentioned accepting an objection, and I've not heard it framed like that before, in the sense that you hear about objections and you hear about real objections, fake objections, whatever. But accepting objections to me, sounds like a mindset. Talk to me about how you get into that mindset of not accepting objection when you hear it.

Well, again, have you overcome it within yourself? So let's say, what's a good one? What's a good example? I'm not ready to start now. So avoiding making a decision, again, like we just use that example. But again, where in life are you avoiding making decisions? There's a powerful psychology that they talk about in influence, and it's essentially a frame collision. Right. So at that point if you just accept it's like, oh, that makes sense. Like I, because I usually delay making decisions in my life, then you're just going to accept that and you're going to kind of leave the ball in their court. But if you know the consequence of and you can actually, like, you really take a good hard look at your life and look at all the decisions that you delayed in the consequence of making those decisions, you're going to support that person to not delay making a decision. The objections we accept are the objections we haven't overcome within ourselves. That's typically it. And yes, we will still get all the different types of objections, but again, it will be a lot easier to have a conversation around them. Again, it's you two versus the objection, not you versus them. It's like, how do we support you to make better quality decisions as the trusted advisor? Then you're going to have a lot better time doing that because you've dealt with that within yourself.

Okay, let's dive back into what you were talking about a moment ago then, which is around going into a conversation with the mindset of not failing or believing you wouldn't fail or you couldn't fail. I think you framed it as you were talking about that. It made me think about confidence and it made me think about the situations I was in my life, whether it was business or just general, where I felt like I was going to win. You know what I mean? Like, I'm confident that I'm better than the situation. I will go on to win this situation. Therefore, I don't have any pressure on me necessarily because I'm in control of all of the elements I need to be in control of. How do you get to that point? When it comes to a situation like selling a home to someone, I think.

There'S, again, practical tools. So if you're not attached to the outcome as an example and your intent is to serve, you're naturally going to show up being a little bit more relaxed. So that mindset piece is, what are you attached to getting the sale or are you attached to supporting that person to make.

Let me reframe this. So it's very real, the situation. I see what you're saying. Like you're not detached the outcome. I don't need to sell this home.

Yep.

You know what I mean? Therefore, I'll just be the trusted advisor. But playing devil's advocate, I've got nothing in my pipeline. I don't have any homes coming out. I've got a full team. I've Got a, you know, you know, support. They need work, they need to be paid. We need money coming through the business. I'm having a conversation with someone. I am attached to the outcome because I need to land that deal. Nothing else. I don't have a call for a month after that. You know what I mean? So how do you break away from that then? Because that's what's driving the discounting the decisions around not being confident in the sales conversation, accepting objections. That insecurity around Shivers. I actually need this work asap.

Yes, Yes. I just keep coming back to state. Right. And the objections that you haven't dealt with within yourself. Maybe there's like, is there a different way that you can ask that question? Because I'm trying to.

Yeah, maybe it's. Maybe that's my insecurities coming through in the question. But I'm just thinking of a common scenario that builders find themselves in. They don't have enough work coming through, and then the opportunities they do have, without being rude, they're desperate to close them. They want to close them. So they're kind of doing anything and everything they can to close them. Which doesn't put them in the best mental state when they're having those sales conversations.

Absolutely. And there's like, natural tools you can do. Like, because again, we're all going to be attached to the outcome. But it's like, how can we make sure that the intent to serve is before that? Right. We can always have a goal, we can have an outcome, we can want the sale. There's practical things you can do, like, like a, a call reset or making sure that before the call, you're in the right mind frame. You're not. You haven't just been at the, you know, building the building site, putting out fires a thousand different times. When, like a practical thing, like, when's a good time of day to, like that, you know, you're more present, you're more regulated. Naturally speaking, like, have you gone for a walk? Like, you know, have you eaten properly? Like, are you getting enough sleep? There's like, natural things that we can do to lead back to that. But you know, a simple thing as well that I always come back to, and it might sound silly, but is breath work, like, before every call, like, take a couple of deep breaths in and like, center yourself. There's studies around this that suggest if you take two deep breaths in and then a long exhale and you do that four times in a row, your nervous system is naturally going to relax a little bit more. And I hear what you're saying here. There's like the deep psychology of like, that's the long work of like, you know, deal with your objections, the objections you haven't, you know, overcome within yourself. And then there's like, what are the practical tools that I can just get to this next thing. And sometimes it is just a season of, you know, you just got to lean in and realize, wow, there's, there's, there's a, there's a resistance here to following up or I'm not present on the call. How can I catch myself in the moment, have the conscious awareness to catch myself and bring myself back as best I possibly can? Because you don't know what you don't know. Does that answer your question then? I think so.

What I'm hearing you say is that you've got tools available to you create habits prior to calls, during calls, after calls, which will help you be in your best state during that moment.

Yes, absolutely. And we have a four part reset that I usually talk to the team about. And it's like hard conversations, I call them challenging conversations. Right? Because when something is a challenge, you're more likely to lean into it. But if you can debrief after a hard call and you're like, you know, and it was particularly difficult and maybe didn't go the way that you liked, it's like, what happened? Ask yourself that question and just, just general, just like let it all out. What did I learn from what happened? Like what some of the lessons that I can bring into the next conversation, again, what will I adjust? Like, so there's the lessons of this went well, but maybe this didn't. So what will I adjust? And then also what was outside my control? Because again, oftentimes we make the conversation about us when in reality, again, if the prospect or the client, the potential client on the other end is nervous, we can make it. It's like, oh, I, I did something wrong. But in reality it's like we can, we can identify that maybe it's their stuff that's coming up as well because they're overwhelmed. And then again as coming back to the Trusted Advisor piece, like, how do we best support them to be in, in less overwhelm. And that is taking our time, asking the right questions, you know, really, really relaxing and making sure we're in the best state. And when we have those types of conversations as well.

I like that habit of just resetting after the call. Makes me think of just journaling in general, you know, when you really worked up about something, you verbalize it or you write it down, all of a sudden, it just doesn't feel that big a deal anymore. And, I mean, trying not to lead too much into what we offer as a company, but if you do have a coach or mentor in your corner, that's a great third party who you could just do a voice note, send it to them after a sales call with all of your thoughts around how you performed in that sales call, and there's no judgment coming back from them. And it's like someone that's not within your current team, where you feel like you need to keep up appearances, et cetera.

Yeah. Oftentimes it is actually just like there's studies around just getting it out, whether it's verbally or writing it. And we realize that, you know, again, it maybe wasn't as bad as we thought it was. Or, hey, maybe we're taking this personally. Again, maybe our stuff's coming up. Again, sales being a mirror.

The other bit that came out there, which you didn't go too deeply into, is just being empathetic to the situation your client's in. Right. You're going through all this internal stuff, but at the end of the day, your client's also going through this huge emotional journey for probably the biggest purchase of their life. That's stressful for them.

Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Again, the more we can do the inner work, and it sounds cliche, but the more we can look at the emotions that are coming up with us, the more that we can relate to what's going on with them. So, you know, it's the micro cues. Like I said, 80% of communication is nonverbal. So what are they not saying behind the thing? It's like, all right. And again, questions are the answer. You can ask the questions that help you gather the information that you need to support them rather than making an assumption when it comes to that. Oftentimes as well, when we feel overwhelmed, we probably just don't have enough data to support where we need to take the conversation. So ask more questions.

And I want to get a little bit more specific on a couple of things. If you've got this feeling of wanting to be liked by other people, and that's holding you back in having hard, challenging conversations with someone in a sales situation, how do you overcome that? Maybe you don't have that. Do you care about being liked or.

Well, and here's the piece. Like, I understand you're trying to, like, go deeper in that conversation, but it just comes back to what's going on within myself. Like, why do you feel the need to be liked? Is the question I would ask.

So it's identifying at first that that is something. Maybe it's that, maybe it's something else.

Yep.

And then recognizing that something within yourself could be causing that to happen.

Exactly. Having the awareness is some of the biggest piece. So Joe Hudson, he's a high performance coach. I just listened to a podcast him over the weekend. He oftentimes says it's the fear and the resistance towards the feeling that is oftentimes what causes the biggest suffering. Right. So oftentimes if we just look at the thing and feel the feeling, and again, it sounds a little bit woo woo. But we just look at the thing and feel the feeling. Oftentimes it goes away on the other side of that. It's just like, oh, you know, it's so.

It's so true.

Yeah.

Fear of the feeling is worse than the feeling itself.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that comes up in sales conversations. It's like, please like me. You know, we don't want to come across as the greedy salesperson or whatever it might be. And look at how we grew up and our relationship to money as an example. Like, you know, grew up watching the Simpsons. I know I did grow up watching the Simpsons. Right. Who was the. The rich person who was evil Mr. Burns. Right. So unconsciously we're getting programmed that, you know, if we ask for money, like, and that leads to discounting, that leads to hesitation, that leads to the please like me behavior. I don't want to be that, you know, the rich bad guy or again, it's the like unconscious money stories of, again, like money. Like, I grew up with this saying all around me. Money doesn't grow on trees. Right. So I want to be nice to this, but, you know, please like me, that that type of energy comes out that way.

All right, if we want to round it out, what's the biggest mindset shift or just the final piece of advice you give to builders to just take that next step and start improving their mindset when it comes to sales conversations?

Again, if I was to summarize it, and we already spoke about this, intent counts more than technique, right? So if you show up with the right intent, what you say has less words. Again, if you, if we use an example of builder A has a like is present, has the right intent, really wants to help and serve, but doesn't really have, you know, much of a script, sales script or a framework or anything that they followed. Maybe they don't really know much about sales, but they just really genuinely want to help and they're passionate about what they do. And then build a B has all the right skills, frameworks, you know, systems when it comes to their sales. Well, people will buy from the person that they trust versus the person that says all the right words. And if there's any incongruence in the words that we're saying versus how we're making somebody feel, that causes uncertainty in people. So again, if you show up with the right intent, you can get away with saying all the wrong things, quote unquote. And people are still more likely to go with you. I am about six months ago, engaged a high performance coach and I was going through a few sales conversations and one of them in particular I engaged with. He was quite big on social media. And I essentially got on the call and he just started telling me all the things he does, you know, and just started essentially pitching me and telling me this is why you need my program, et cetera, et cetera. Didn't ask me anything about me Interesting, right? And I left that call going, okay, like, it's not bad, but like, I don't really feel connected to his program. And then I jumped on a call with somebody that was actually referral and now my current coach, and not as big on social media, but, you know, came recommended and he. All he did was ask me questions about me to understand me. And I was like this guy, because he actually cares. He wasn't trained in sales. He didn't have any crazy framework or anything like that, but he just wanted to understand just so he could have help me get. To help understand whether he could actually get me to the outcome that I want and whether we. It would be a good idea for us to work together. So intent is one piece. Again, if you. It was number two. If we were to look at it being reframing yourself as a trusted advisor, you've got skills, knowledge and experience that they don't and even other builders don't, right? Like there's only one of you, only one of you that has gone through the journey that you've gone on. So like, lean into that, that being trusted advisor. And the third piece, and we've spoken about this a lot, is like, name the fear. Like, where your resistance is is where your task is. So name what it. Where you're resisting. Like, identify it, name it, lean into it and choose to do something differently and you'll probably more likely get to the outcome that you want.

It's interesting builder a And B that you mentioned before, the one that's all about vibe and then the one that's all about process. I feel like if you combine, combine A and B, then obviously you're in a much better place. Like, there's the process of actually having the sales conversation, Right?

Yep.

Which, to your point, the most important thing is being present. But I think then there's the process in the background, which is your follow up, you know, all that kind of stuff, which I think needs to be paired with the mindset, otherwise you'll end up pissing people off.

Exactly. And that's the bringing the two together. And oftentimes that is the piece that can help you gain a little bit more confidence in this, in the sales process as well. So it's not one or the other. They actually go hand in hand. So if you have a system and a framework that you follow, that's going to give you more confidence to be able to go through the sales conversation because. Because you have that there. Right. And be more present within the call because you have those sort of guardrails for yourself. So, yeah, they're not, you know, it's not one or the other. It's definitely both. And that's where the superpower lies. Really cool.

Well, speaking of frameworks, we do have a free resource available for anyone out there called the Sales Blueprint for Builders. That's the structural stuff that Tyson was just mentioning, if you want to dive into the mindset side of things. Sales Mindset Mastery is one of our action plan trainings for members of the association of Professional Builders. And there's a more detailed version of the Sales Blueprint in there as well, so that's a great place to go. Tyson was instrumental in putting together the Sales Mindset Mastery training. So a lot of value in there that we touched on at a high level today. But Tyson, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. Hopefully this is not, not the last time.

Yeah, yeah, hopefully I'm invited back, of course.

Well, thanks for coming on and also a big thank you to our listeners wherever you are in the world. If you like the show today, please subscribe to Professional Builder's Secrets on your platform of choice. And if you're feeling generous, leave us a review. But until next time, have a great day.