233. What Builders Never Get Taught With Anthony & Paul Mancini

Welcome to another episode of Professional Builders Secrets. In this episode, I interview Anthony and Paul Mancini from Mancini Made. Mancini Made is a design and build company delivering high-end architecturally designed homes in Melbourne, Australia. Over 15 years, Anthony and Paul have grown the business to $25 million in annual revenue while navigating some of the toughest conditions the construction industry has seen. They share all they've learned over that time about running a successful construction company. It's a must-listen episode. This episode of Professional Builders Secrets is brought to you by Apparatus Contractor Services. Apparatus provides full-scope, end-to-end QuickBooks Precision construction accounting and CFO services for residential builders. If you feel like you can't completely trust your weekly and monthly financial reports, or you feel like you're flying blind, Apparatus will rebuild and operate your QuickBooks accounting system and give you precision construction accounting capability you can trust. Learn more at ApparatusTeam.com or on the APB Rewards partner directory.

We didn't really know what, what the future looked like. There's no training manual for that. The biggest shock is you've just got no idea what you're in for. Construction is probably 10%. You gotta learn legal, you gotta learn contracts, you gotta learn HR, you gotta learn branding, marketing, strategies.

Most companies that worked for no longer around, they both went into liquidation. We feel like you learn a lot more from the negative impacts of business, seeing it firsthand. We got off 5% on any of those items, your cash flow could, you probably won't be profitable. You really need to put all 4 quarters together to make sure that you are profitable. There's no real formula.

It's just. 1% by 1%.

Welcome to Professional Builders Secrets, the podcast for building company owners wanting to grow safely and securely. I'm your host, Will Blunt, and today I'm joined by Anthony and Paul Mancini from Mancini Made in Victoria. Welcome to the show, guys.

Thanks, Will. Thanks for having us today.

Yeah, hi, Will. Nice to meet you.

I think I got the Australian pronunciation of your name right by the sounds of it.

Yes, in Australia you're spot on, it's Mancini and if we're having espressos in Italy, it's Mancini. So yes, definitely got that right.

Very good. Well guys, it's great to have you on today. I'm selfishly keen to learn more about your business because it's been around for 15 years now and you've got a phenomenal front-facing business online that I've been exposed to. So really excited to hear more about that, but there's a lot of awesome stuff that you do behind the scenes as well. And I think a lot of the builders out there will be very excited to hear about that. So maybe Anthony, do you want to kick us off and just give us a bit of a background on how you got into this industry, what your company does?

Yeah, for sure, Will. So essentially, like you said, Mancini Made has been around for 15 years. For Paul and I, sort of goes a fair bit further back than that. We're a family of sort of 3 boys and our parents. We're in real estate. So essentially our business acumen started from our parents. Our parents always run the business and we sort of were guided by them. And so the eldest brother runs the real estate and Paul sort of had an inkling for architecture and I sort of followed Paul. So how it all started is essentially, um, yeah, we both went to university. So we went through that route. Paul went and worked for a company called Liquid Lines and sort of, you know, what we call getting our apprenticeship. And I went to another very high-end builder. And we always had the idea of coming together and starting something. You know, it's been a very quick 15 years. We'd, you know, essentially positioned ourselves in the Melbourne market to build luxury. So that scales from, you know, multi-res to apartments to homes, renovations and everything in between. So that's where we sit quite comfortably. And yeah, it's been a really, I'm going to say fun journey. From start to today.

Fun's one way to describe business, I guess.

Yeah, I mean, fun is the shortest abbreviation, but yeah, look, honestly, it's a journey. And yes, it's got as many— I won't use the words ups and downs, but it's just a journey where you're continually learning. And it's something that we thoroughly enjoy, to be honest, even though, you know, people, the listeners from Melbourne would would empathize here, but yeah, Melbourne's been especially quite tough. So it's, it challenges you as a person and you continue to learn, which is, you know, learn and evolve, which is probably what Paul and I enjoyed most about running our business.

Yeah, perfect. Well, we'll dive a bit more into that as well and hear more about how you approach business. But Paul, tell us your take on how the business started and from your perspective.

Yeah, so I actually started the business a couple of years earlier than Anthony. I'm 4 years older. So as I was finishing uni, I was, yeah, well, like I said, like Anthony said, working at a company called Liquid Lines who were doing high-end restaurants, bars, and homes. We did projects like the Stokehouse in Melbourne, Vue de Monde, Cafe Vue, the Carousel. So super high-end luxury restaurants that people probably heard of before. I was there for about 6 years and then I think at 27 started we had the idea to start the company together. So we're obviously partners. Anthony at the time was 23 and we thought obviously prudent that he remains his company of employment just to get a lot more experience. I feel like that was good grounding for us because obviously we wanted to sort of be in the real world and understand the ups and downs of, yeah, business, I suppose. Those companies that we actually used to work for no longer— I think, yeah, most the companies that work for no longer around. They both went into liquidation, which I think in one sort of silver lining for us, which is obviously devastating for them or for that company, but we learn a lot from, you know, we feel like you learn a lot more from the negative impacts of business seeing it firsthand. So we did implement a lot of sort of strict routine and sort of checkpoints for our company, which has sort of put us in good stead, I suppose. So yeah, a lot of learnings from just going and get that experience and then bringing it to Mancini Made. And we've obviously systems— we'll probably touch on it later— but putting systems and procedures in place. We sort of do run our company like a commercial sort of company, a residential company, with, yeah, systems, procedures, quality assurance checks from top to bottom, which is sort of, yeah, like I said, kept us in good stead. We sort of built it from the ground up. So even though we only had one employee and then had two, three, and four grow naturally, we did build the companies built on solid foundations from the get-go. So we can scale, it could be scaled. So as we grew naturally, yeah, the foundations were there to support it.

What are some examples of the practices you put in place that you learned from being in a company that went into liquidation in real estate? Estate? Because are you talking about financial practices and financial processes and things like that?

Yeah, look, we had a couple of bad sort of debtors throughout my company in particular. And just simple practices like getting, making sure that the, your client's got finance approved, seeing that finance approval. Obviously that's one, that's a requirement of, you know, the home warranty insurance. Making sure that the owner of the land is the person that you're contracting to. Just being super diligent with if they, if the owner of the land is a company, doing a check on who is the director of those companies. If they're lending money from so-and-so, making sure they got it in writing that they're, that is, you know, tied to the project. So really just making sure that there's no loose end, like any loose end, you know, the more loose ends you got, then becomes an issue. And then obviously the more issues you got, the worse it becomes. So just being like super diligent with documentation, contracts, scope of works, just never, literally never leaving a stone unturned. Yeah, I could go on forever really. Like there's so many practices that what I feel like it's really, like I said, kept us in good stead when, when the rubber, yeah, hits the road, that you, you know, you, you got all four wheels on the road.

Yeah, it's interesting. I don't think I was expecting that response because you've gone down the risk management path, I think, which is awesome. I guess what I was thinking, maybe it's a bit of both, is your internal processes around understanding your financials and your pricing and all that kind of stuff that gives you a little bit more, I guess it's an internal risk adverse as well.

Well, there's so many factors to owning a construction company. It's literally like, it's like I say to my or our employees, that we need to put, like, it's like playing 4 quarters of football. Like, you need to be quoting well, winning work, delivering well, well on site, good practices, you know, good communication, good culture, good staff. Like, there's so many things that come into play when delivering a good product and being a good company that if you're one, if you're off 5% on any of those items, like, you know, your cash flow could, you know, you probably won't be profitable or have a crap year. Jobs are delayed. Like there's so many, yeah, you really need to put all 4 quarters together to make sure that you are profitable. So, so many factors.

If you had to summarize, Anthony, the difference between when the business started and how it operates today, what are the biggest things that are different?

I would probably start with Paul and myself. I think we've evolved personally and professionally. I think that's the biggest factor. I think we've learned to delegate better. And with what Paul said, so yes, we did learn from our, our ex-employees' failures, let's call them, but all experiences. So we— that was our foundation of starting process and procedures. So as time has evolved, Paul and I have evolved, but also our procedural systems have evolved. So that would entail getting— recently we updated our project management software, our site safety software. I think As you grow in terms of years, our company's grown in terms of employees as well. So I think the main differences are now we're a little bit more equipped in terms of personnel systems, and we're just a little wiser in the way that we cope with the stresses of, you know, operating a business. And I guess what that means is we've got people below us that do an amazing job, and that, that stress is also you know, shared throughout the group. And that, that is probably the biggest difference of where we're at today is just let's revert it back to the sporting analogy. Play with 300 grams. You just become conditioned to the environment and what you can expect on a day-to-day. I think when Paul and I started, you're two young guys that just finished uni, plenty of energy, but we didn't really know what, what the future looked like in terms of the challenges we were going to be faced with. And, you know, all builders in Australia, or maybe even internationally, like COVID was a great example of that. Like there's no training manual for that. And I think, you know, you needed to adapt on the spot. So I think that's all, all with experience and time.

Yeah. Tell me more about how you've learned to handle all of that stuff over time, like the constant pressure of the construction industry. Like Paul, you touched on it with all the different moving parts. There's no other industry like the construction industry when it comes to the risk and all that kind of stuff.

Right.

And the fluctuations in markets, you know, things like COVID that come out of the blue. There's, thousands of other things that could throw you off on any given day. So how have you learned to manage all that?

Yeah, it's a good question. I think the main thing is having good people around you, like having good staff. Like, we can't do it without our staff, making sure that they understand their roles. And we, like, we've got really awesome staff, most of them, like, really awesome culture. Most of them are 7 years plus. Some staff have been with us for 13 years. So not having the worry of who's going to do what, knowing— so everyone knows their roles and responsibilities. And secondly, just being organized. Like, we work, you know, 12 months ahead in terms of projects, so we're never looking for a project. We do design and build, so we've got our own architecture firm and we concentrate on, yeah, like, making sure that there's jobs ready to go in the system. So that's one, like, that alleviates literally most pressures, like cash flow is one of our— if you're on top of your cash flow and you're ahead of the game in terms of projects, it pretty much eliminates most issues that you're going to face. So cash flow, obviously making sure Anthony is a construction manager, so he takes care of the site. So really dividing and conquering in regards to roles and responsibilities, and then obviously keeping on top of your cash flow. Pretty much eliminates most issues. Because, like, let's be honest, most issues come from, yeah, obviously safety issues on site or, you know, cash flow. So I think if you concentrate on taking care of that, that business, most of everything else will just fall into line. And then you might have the— you might have a spotfire here and there, but like Anthony said, it comes with experience. Like, we've not— we've dealt with WorkSafe, we've dealt with, you know, issues on site, staff members being sick or whatever. Like we just, we're experienced in those fields. So it sort of hurt, like it just helps being experienced, I suppose, the 15 years. Like there's nothing, nothing really that happens that we don't know, we haven't dealt with before.

How have you got to that point of being 12 months ahead on projects? Because obviously, I mean, that's what we're trying to help people in the industry do in terms of improving their operational marketing and sales system so they can get more pipeline and, you know, have that, that benefit of all the things you just mentioned. But for most builders, that seems like a long way off.

Well, I'm an architect, so we've got, and we've got our own architecture practice, so we've got the benefit of having a design, like a really strong design and build sort of part of our business. And in that, so we would always have like maybe 10, 15 projects that are in town planning, always in the pipeline. So as we're building on site, we've got 10, 15 in town planning or in the early works contract that we know that are just going to be there in 12 months' time. So we're always, we always know that we're not chasing a job. There's jobs there. It's really difficult. And I say to Anthony and the staff all the time and other builders that we're, we've got a lot of friend builders that are in Melbourne. Like if we were tendering, a tendering company, I really don't know how we would go because you're always constantly chasing work. Cutting your price, trying to get undercut by other builders is really, really difficult for builders out there who just tender all the time because, you know, you might be 1 in 4 or 1 in, you know, 1 in 5 and just always chasing. So, and then also with that, you've got so much risk in inheriting other people's documentation, and that's just another risk in itself. So yeah, for us, it's having work in town planning and in the pipeline with that design and build arm. That really just keeps us in good stead. And, you know, we're never really looking— new jobs are just around the corner. I'm always working on 5 or 6 jobs getting to site at any one time, so I can always pull a lever, bring it in forward, speak to a client and just say, listen, we're, you know, and work with them to say, look, we're 3 months out, you know, helping with demos. So just really being organized, being organized and being supporting the client with you know, making sure that they're ready to go, move out, do demo, whatever they need to do to make sure that the jobs are there for the team, ready to go.

What percentage of buildings or houses that you're designing in the architecture firm are you taking across to build?

Yeah, I'd say, uh, probably at least 50-60%. We are tendering one now which is, um, like 17-18 mil. So in our turnovers, yeah, it's been Currently it's about 25 mil. So yeah, but at any one stage I'd say at least 50%, maybe even 60%.

So that one job will essentially double your turnover.

Essentially.

And that's from an external architect. So we sort of place ourselves where we use the design and build as, you know, you call it a safety net, but it's, we're farming our own work. And just so you know, Will, it actually never started like that. It started, Paul and I had learned from architectural builders. So it was always going to be a tendering business. A very, like, a normal operating construction business. But we sort of moved into that design and build because Paul was studying architecture and then finally graduated, but he didn't really get registered till down the track. But what we figured out was, you know, at first we were working within our real estate business. Our eldest brother used to come in and say, hey boys, got a client, he wants to put two townhouses on this site, what can we do? So we used to offer a really cheap design, but sort of it's kind of like an ECI. You're working with a client directly, build trust. And we fell into that and Paul sort of soon figured out that was the way to work. Because when we first started, we also had no name, no reputation besides people knowing us for being real estate agents. So it evolved into becoming a D&B and that is a massive string to our bow. And then we are in the luxury of when architects would like to work with us, we can sort of ECI negotiate that rather than go into a tender. So when those big ones drop where we're comfortable and we have the team and processes to undertake those works. So it's a really good sort of balance between, yeah, design and build and, and yeah, architectural work.

While we're talking about bringing work in and sorry if I sidetrack away from all the questions I sent you because I'm just enjoying this chat. But I mean, you guys have a really strong presence from branding perspective. Perspective, you know, your social media presence is amazing as well. And like just in the general media and press, how have you developed that and how much has that contributed to this pipeline that you're talking about?

That comes back to our learnings from our previous employees. Where I used to work, I always found that we were delivering the best work in Melbourne, but it was never being projected to the public. So very early on I said, you know, I said to Paul, I want to— we start Instagram essentially. We never went to Facebook because we don't feel that's our demographic, and to this day we're still not on it. But I guess we've always been good at the brand. We were very solid from start. We, we went to a company that we're still with, Seesaw. 15 years later, they actually come up with our name, and we've always been very, you know, big into, okay, it's The typology, we don't water it down. It's always stacked. So, you know, that started with really nice clean hoardings. We had light boxes. So you could sort of see, even though when Paul said we started with one employee, the systems we set up like we were already big. And then that Instagram sort of followed that. So we've always been very consistent. You know, we post every 3 days, we mix it up with client interviews. And so for us, that is a major, major factor because Hoardings are great. The locals will see it and yes, you get local inquiries, which generates more work, but really the eyeballs to Instagram is unmatchable, especially because your return on investment, most Instagram is free. There's obviously investment behind videography and photography, but we've got it to a point now where everyone works in and most of those costs are shared because it's such, we've been very fortunate to build a really strong following to date. And that helps us. It's our propeller that moves us through. Even like through COVID, it's still, you know, people could say, wow, Man City Made is still operating. They're still consistently starting new projects, finishing new projects. It just shows exactly what we're doing and up to. So yeah, it's a big factor.

Yeah, it's a really interesting way to look at it. Like you mentioned that you, your perception or the perception you're trying to create initially was bigger than what you actually were. And that's exactly what you need to do in building, right? Because it's all about trust and perception when it comes down to it.

Absolutely. You know, Paul and I always used to say, yes, beautiful hoardings are great, but how many people are going to see them? It's about, yeah, getting, you know, again, Instagram's got such a wide audience. It's just such an amazing way to portray what you're doing, where you're doing it, how you're doing it, who you're doing it with. It's just such a powerful tool. And we're just very lucky to get onto that very early. In, in my opinion.

One of the main, like, probably just for the listeners, like, whoever, like, even guys that are starting a business, we, we always invested a lot in our branding and the way that the company looks. Like, we always had, like, whether it was one job, one employee, or, you know, 20 jobs and 40 employees, we always set a benchmark of this is how we are going to be portrayed. So it wasn't like, oh, let's make money and then we'll spend it later. We're like, no, let's invest in how we're gonna— what we're gonna deliver. This is how we're going to be. Clean sites, crushed rock, hoarding cars. I've not gone crazy, but just not going overzealous, but just being like, this is our brand. Just like Nike, you're like, if you see the swoosh, you know who it is. Or just being consistent so people like clients see it and go, yeah, these guys, like, they're just consistent. They're always the same. Clean sites, like I can tell you, like, we've probably won, you know, 10, 15 jobs over the years. We've just— people said, oh, I've seen your projects. They're always clean. They're always quick. They're always well set up. Like, we would have won so many jobs like that. And then so many referrals from, you know, I'm probably digressing, but just doing good work and being good aftercare. Like, honestly, like, we just support our clients that much. And just do— we'll go so far out, like, beyond what the expectation is to make sure that they feel comfortable. And they would— if they ever spoke, like, anyone ever needed a builder, that will be, like, you know, first on the list. And the good thing for us, and luckily enough, like, we've got so many good relationships with our existing clients that we've done 3 or 4 projects, we've used their houses as display homes, like, they let us in any house, anytime, pretty much anywhere. It works for us because we don't really have a display home, but we've done 200 projects and they are all our display homes. So some learnings from being 15 years in is always just go the extra mile for your client. I don't even, I can't remember what the question is now, but yeah, like just honestly, like it's a small world and like just if you can, if you've got the best intention, for your clients and just deliver the best project possible, like it will come back tenfold.

Yeah, but I guess as well, to your point, like if people don't know about that experience, sure, you might get the odd referral, but if you're representing that publicly on Instagram, for example, or other means, then you can portray that well.

Anthony leans on that with interviews afterwards and say, look, we do like client interviews and how was the process. And honestly, I, yeah, we use Instagram as an awesome platform, but I also use my clients as a referral base as well. Like I'll just say, listen, here's 3 clients, pick 3 clients from the website, any job, any client, and I'll give you their number. And then they just, you know, I've sealed so many deals like that.

So I think, well, there's 2 things there. So one is to your first question about marketing. So marketing is, it's only a small factor of running a business, call it 20%. You know, you got HR, you got building, you got, you know, whatever else. But yeah, marketing is a big factor. My advice to do this business is just put, like, not—

I would—

it's a big factor, and to put— reinvest into it as much as you can because it comes back twofold. So there's two things. One thing is marketing. Yes, portray yourself clean, cut, beautiful, great branding. You know, you're really good and consistent, but you got to have the backend. So the backend, that's where Paul's sort of speaking to. Okay, we've been doing great work, we've got people that speak for us, and then when those two worlds align, you become— it's a powerful, very powerful tool. You know, we, by the time we get to the end of a project, you've got to think about a design and build. They've been working with Paul for probably a year pre. So, you know, they've gone to Paul and said, Paul, I want to build a home. It's got to be $2 million. So Paul's designed it, got within their budget. We've got it to site. So guess, tick, they're happy. We built it within their timeframe, you know, generally 10 to 12 months. Tick, they're happy. And then by the end, we are essentially best friends. Like most of our clients are. Our best friends. It's, it's crazy. Like, warranty is not warranty. It's, hey, how are you? What's happening? You know, I've got this, you know. And we've got a full-time warranty guy, but that journey is amazing. And all of those clients, like Paul said, are willing to endorse for us because of their experience. Would you be open to photography or doing a client interview? You know, they're always so sort of willing and genuinely happy to do that for us. And that, that endorsement is bigger and better than anything we could ever say about our business or, you know, our post on Instagram could do.

Yeah, that's a great point. I mean, you can have all the front end looking nice, but if then the back end and the delivery of the product doesn't line up with that, then it's a complete waste.

100%. And I just want to maybe touch on one more thing that I learned from my old business was we were not good at aftercare. And I think that's something Paul and I've paid really special attention to. So we've got an aftercare manager that's been with us for 15 years. So since day one, he was initially building our hoardings but evolved into that role. And that role is so crucial because Darren is the face of the aftercare. And clients, you know, aftercare is when the builders come in, finish his job, being paid, and, you know, some people think, oh, is my builder— are they going to come back? Do they care? But, you know, when you've got somebody that picks up the phone or they put an email in and say, yep, we acknowledge your email, we're going to be in touch within 24 hours. That care is crucial. I would pay special attention to that because in my experience, normal builders would say, oh, the old site manager will, you know, he's your least, go, go do it when you get a chance. But that, that guy's on another job and has got a workload too heavy already. So I think that's a big factor and it's been very good for us because when Paul goes and calls the client and say, hey, you know, Bruce from Durkin or, you know, wherever, Richard from Reid, can you mind if I come in? Yes, if they're happy, absolutely. You know, but if they've got a water leak, it's not— you're not a good chance.

How did you justify investing money in marketing from such an early stage in the business? Because I suspect a lot of that investment you may not have seen come back for years.

So truthfully, it's a tough question because Paul and I, don't entirely see eye to eye on that. I'm very much spend, spend, spend, and Paul runs Cashflow and he's all about, mate, hold back, hold back, hold back. Mate, there's no magic ball and no magic sort of answer to that. It's hard because you can't really quantify your return on investment. Early days, we would be using architectural photographers on homes that probably didn't deserve them, respectfully to us and the project. But, you know, we were paying $5,000, $6,000 for photo shoots. But in essence, we're trying to link up with, you know, architectural photographers to elevate the brand of Manzini Made. So it's a tough question.

I think any, like anything, just got to look at what your cash flow is. You got to budget. Just set a budget. Like no matter if you're turning over X or Y, it's like, okay, this is my budget for the year. And then revisit it every year and just make sure that, okay, we spent this much or we, you know, we made that much and that worked for us and that didn't work. So you're always learning. There's no, like, whether it's marketing or, you know, vehicles or, you know, hoardings or whatever it is, it's just setting a budget and then revisiting it and adjusting it and just being open, being flexible to, yeah, being, make sure you get your learnings and, and see, okay, did it work for us? Did it— you were gonna have made sales. Like, we've— we used to spend some— we used to sponsor Melbourne Victory pretty heavily, spend a lot of money there. It worked for us for a couple years, then we hit COVID. And then, so at one stage we're on like Melbourne Victory, which obviously for the viewers is basically the premier soccer competition in Australia. Yeah, we're on the side hoardings, we're getting, you know, we're getting tickets to every game in a box, but we're taking clients. It was really working for us. And then COVID hit, they weren't playing games. So then we peeled back and it's just been like being able to pivot when you need to understand the learnings and pivot when you need to. So it's just setting a budget and then being open to changing it. Like it's no, it's no right or wrong. We might spend X one year and then spend X another. So I'd say set a budget.

Do you have a formula for that budget that you work towards? Like a percentage of retained earnings, percentage of revenue or what are you just plucking a number out of there and hoping it works?

Yeah, I think honestly, um, for my— are you saying for marketing?

Yeah, yeah, to invest in the marketing.

Yeah, no, there's no rule. There's no rule. And like, one, like last year we redid our website, so that straight away, that went, you know, was quadruple what we'd normally pay. So I don't think, um, we don't have a real formula for it. It's just now that Anthony does have a budget on now the Instagram and all that, because that was sort of getting out of control a little bit. But no, there's no real formula. But Anthony's right, like you do sort of, when you do, you spend, you only get it back what you spent really. So I wouldn't be, yeah, too, you don't want to spend, like you definitely want to invest something.

I'm enjoying the battle you two are having here because we spoke off air and we didn't actually mention it too much in the interview yet around the roles you have in the business. And I think it's starting to come out in the way you're talking about it, which is cool. But There's probably a little bit to that, the way you both think differently that's been part of your success, I would suggest. But did you always have those defined roles initially? And do you want to just give a quick overview of what you both do actually, as what your roles are?

Yeah. As you're asking that question, it's funny because today we're wearing opposite shirts. So, okay. So look, Paul and I, for— is different in age gap. Naturally, we're very different in personalities and skill sets. And I think that's actually what makes us great together. I think individually we wouldn't be so good, but together we actually amalgamate so well. My role in the business evolved initially when I started, I was site managing because we're still growing the business. I then evolved into sort of a construction manager and then moved more into directorship and overseeing branding, marketing. HR, new business, networking strategies, all of that, but still got my hand heavily on construction site managers, PMs, with help of another gentleman, Marco, who's sort of operations manager. And then, yeah, Paul.

My role is, yeah, so day-to-day run sort of the accounting, cash flow, workflow, new business, design and build. Yeah, just making sure that, you know, everything's ticking over. I'm more sort of office-based and where Anthony's more, yeah, site-based. So I've got, yeah, my finger on the pulse in regards to, yeah, jobs, um, starting, jobs finishing, um, yeah, essentially cash flow and, um, yeah, just making sure that that's all going well.

So you're a numbers guy, but you're also a designer.

Those two things seem the opposite. I think it's one of those things like when you if you didn't start when you don't, you don't know the things you don't know when you start a business. Like you think, oh, I'm not really, because our family was in real estate and I'm like, oh, I'm not really want to be a real estate agent. But it was very, very soon I realized I'm actually in sales myself. So, um, so I had to be good at sales. Yeah, good at obviously numbers, good at architecture, um, which is not, not a sort of necessity for a builder. But yeah, you're sort of wearing many hats really as a builder. Yeah, good organization. Planning, I suppose. So yeah, there's a couple of skills that you need, definitely.

I think, well, that's the biggest shock is when you, you know, you ask what's different from when you started the business, the biggest shock is you've just got no idea what you're in for.

Like, yeah, honestly, most people say like if you actually knew what you had to do and what like what was entailed, you probably wouldn't do it because just learning construction is hard enough.

So as a kid, you're obviously very green and the level of construction methodology for basements and, and, you know, whatever is, you know, might be suspended slabs. And it's difficult. And then there's all different types of soil types, and is it on a sloping side? Is there a water table? That in itself is hard. But when you're actually running a business, I always say to Paul, construction is probably 10%. Like, you got to learn legal, you got to learn contracts, you've got to learn HR, you've got to learn branding, marketing strategies. You know, it's crazy the journey you go on as a builder, and you know, to all the listeners, just know that anyone even in our position, we didn't know any of this. Like at university, they don't— there's no modules for this.

I definitely reckon getting experience, if you're looking to start a business, is get 100% experience. Go work for someone because it will just expand your horizons. And then secondly, like, make sure you actually love what you do because if you don't, you don't— this is not the type of industry that if you actually didn't love what you do Yeah, you're not— I don't think you'd be doing it for too long because it's— it can be grueling. But we look at it more like a sport, like we, we're always up for it, like, um, and then yeah, just having good support around you because you need to spread the load, definitely.

And just one more thing in addition to that is have a mentor or a couple mentors. So we were lucky that our business— our family had a business and they already had a few mentors in place for us, like accountant and lawyer. And we've got a few building mentors too now that we lean on that have been in the industry for longer. So if you do work for somebody, there's no harm in leaving that boss and still be staying friends, because like guys have left us and we love supporting them. Like we'll send them work. And I think that's important to know that everyone's got their own journey in life, and you'll be surprised that people do want to help you, especially if you're a good person and you you've got a good energy.

You know what's funny? Every entrepreneur I've ever spoken to, they have a similar perspective in the sense that it's harder than you think. And, you know, if someone had told me this initially, maybe I wouldn't have gone there or whatever. But regardless of that, I think people, I think they do get told that at the beginning. You guys probably got told that as well, but you just didn't listen. Like, you just, you're too much like, I'm going to figure it out myself.

I think it was always in our blood to start our own business. It was never any doubt that we were going to do it. So yeah, I think, um, I don't know, like, it's hard to say. Look, we just, we just always wanted to have our own business and, and, and do our own, I guess.

Well, when you're young, you're, you're fearless, like you're a whippersnapper. You know, when we started our business, we still lived at home, so you've got no major responsibilities in life. You're not married, you haven't got kids, you haven't got mortgages, you haven't got cars, like we were just full of energy and enthusiasm and the nous. We thought, you know, we knew what we were doing, which was not the case. So you come in with great energy, but then as energy drops, your experience rises. So, you know, it's a great journey and I would recommend it to anybody. You know, I think you want to be challenged. And like Paul said, I think we always were destined to do it. And You know, I think to this day, even I would not ever want to do anything different. Like I actually thoroughly enjoy and love my job. I love meeting new people and building new things. And it's, and it's ever evolving. Like the landscape's continually changing, the economics, the architecture, the just what's happening in the industry now is that multi-res is apartments. It's, it's a beautiful industry. And yeah, even though it's got its moments, I think it's, it's very rewarding.

So the topic of this interview is actually be about improving yourself. And we've kind of just spoken about business the whole time, which has been cool because I've learned a whole ton from you guys and I appreciate you sharing it. But I'll at least ask one question related to that. Over the years, what have you learned about improving yourself and how that's affected the, I guess, the success of the business as well?

In what regard? More personally?

Yeah.

Like Anthony mentioned in our pre-chat, just You've focused a lot on learning and developing yourselves in terms of your skills and your knowledge. And you mentioned mentors, that kind of stuff. How has that impacted the business success? Because you focused on yourself.

I think one of the main things is understanding what your strengths and weaknesses are, because then you can get people around you that have the strengths that you don't have. I think that was one sort of big takeaway for me. Like we read a book I, I read a book and highly recommend it, Good to Great, which is basically get the best people. It's by Jim Collins and highly recommended. Basically get the best people on the bus no matter what they do and just put them in the best seats possible, and then you'll be able to together go like where you got to go further. So yeah, for me, like, it's understanding what your strength, your strength is and what your weaknesses is. And if you've got weaknesses, get people in to those positions to strengthen those positions, then you've got, you know, you've got all guns blazing. So, and then just learn from your— and just learning from your, yeah, just experiences, like reviewing every project, like breaking it down to like every project, what we did good, what we did bad, where'd we make money, where'd we lose money, where'd we make mistakes, like analyzing every single project, every single project's data, client feedback, take it on board whether you agree or disagree, self-reflection, staff feedback as well. Like, we're always open to staff feedback in regards to how can we be better, because how did that work? Had like always being open to it. Like, we, we always have our door open in regards to feedback, whether it's good or bad. We'll always talk about it, table it, even try it. Just being open, just really being open to, yeah, getting information, feedback, and data, and just then using that to strengthen. There's no, no idea that this team has that we never thought, okay, let's, let's discount it. Like, there's a lot of our process and procedures, programs come from probably staff input, really. Oregon saying, go, this worked, this didn't work, because we're, end of the day, we're only two people. We're not on every site every day doing every process. Yeah, we, we rely on, you know, our staff and clients to give us the feedback so we can just be better every day. Like, I mean, that's probably the main thing.

Yeah, I think, I think that's a great answer. I think two things for me when you ask that question is like, we're continually upskilling ourselves. So reading books, going to seminars, speaking to people, having mentors, having mentors in positions that we want to be in. Not just in construction, but you know, you speak to lawyers or just entrepreneurs that have been successful in their life and you find the older guys actually want to give you their wisdom. And then, yeah, like Paul said, it's a good point. I think be open-minded, although yes, you are the director, it's your business. The users are at the interface. They actually know what's working, what's not. You know, like Paul said, listen to those resources. And, you know, like you said, most of our best procedures, processes come from our people. So just be open-minded to change always. And you've got to be adaptable and you've got to be able to pivot. So, you know, we learned early days where we're going to get all this work from. We opened an architecture firm. That's been amazing. During COVID we couldn't get timber. We opened a trust company. So now we are manufacturers of our own like-aged steel. Did we have any ambition to do that when we started? Absolutely not. I didn't even know what steel was, steel frames. But it's our willingness to take mitigated risks if we know it's going to assist us, our business operations, and our efficiencies. It all comes down to making clients happy, being efficient, and building great work. So, you know, recently we invested heavily in a project management software that the team just said, boys, This current system is too clunky. And we said, yep, get them in. If you like it, let's do it. We changed it and off we go. I think we're willing to invest and we're willing to be better. Like that's, you know, that's all you can do as a business operator is be open-minded and say, yes, I'm not perfect. I am learning and I want to be better. Very, you know, it sounds basic, but it's the truth. No matter how big or small you are.

Yeah, I love that. It's good ethos.

Yeah, I think the one thing about that is, um, staff feedback is their buy-in. Yeah, like as soon as you get buy-in, they like, they'll stay with you forever. Culture's solid, they, they're inspired. So if you get their buy-in and then they understand like company goals, where we're going, where we do like, uh, we do like three-quarter, three-quarter meetings. We call them— we call— I got— I forgot, but they were called huddles. So we let them know, okay, this is, this is what we're planning to do this year. This is how we performed last quarter. This is what we're doing this quarter is what our game plan is for the next 12 months. And then they, so they feel like they come along for the journey. So they're part of like, you know, what our goals are. So if they, once you get their buy-in, then at least, you know, okay, they're there for the long haul. You don't really have to worry about like, you know, them, let them flourish and then we can do what we're doing, but it's always good to get their buy-in because it just creates awesome culture.

Yeah, I just want to add to that because I think that is one of the biggest learnings we've had, that there was a real sort of switch for us when we learned that, you know, once you get their buy-in, your staff are very powerful in terms of, in terms of their knowledge. Like, you know, like Paul said, these huddles, we're showing them our full P&L where the company's at, where we're going, what the jobs are on, who we're talking to. But it's a full open book, transparent, like, and over the last few years, you can just see the staff. There's a switch. They just are now, you know, that person's not quitting. They're not getting tapped on the shoulder by a recruiter and considering it. They are full in. Now we go a little bit further and like the senior management are now in with our planning and goals. So for the first 10 years, I was just pulling myself, but now we're getting the others in where their input's amazing. Like they've got experiences from their old businesses that, you know, I'll speak for two of them that are no longer around either. So they, they've got great experiences to add where we would have never not known otherwise.

Yeah.

So it's really tapping into that knowledge. It's all just comes back to getting the best people on the bus and then keeping them on the bus, you know, really being like, yeah, holistic in, in what a company is.

Just comes with years of just doing it repetitious, like just going to the gym, like literally. Like you never win it. We never— all these things that we do, we just, we built, we've built every year, we've built on it, made it better, made it better. Then we've, when we thought, oh, we hit a ceiling, then we'll go see a mentor.

Yeah.

Like we've hit it, we feel like we've hit a ceiling. Like, what do you think about this? What do you think about that? And then we've gone, okay, yeah, let's go this way. So yeah, like mentorship's huge because you could cut 4 years of a mistake in one conversation. Just say, listen, this is where we're at. You know, we speak to companies that have gone public or, you know, turning over hundreds of millions. And they're, yeah, like Anthony said, they're more than happy to give us their time, have a coffee and say, listen, this is, I was where you were at 10 years ago. I went this way, or we did that, or so many awesome sort of, yeah, things that we've taken on board from mentors. Like, it's just, yeah, it's invaluable.

And they're just like incremental changes, you know, like they're not over— it's not, you know, overnight success stuff. It's just 1% by 1%. Like, Paul and I are really competitive in nature, and how do we— like, every, every goal is how do we get better, how do we get there? Like, we Since day dot, I think that was a big factor for us is we always sat down and did goals. So I can, you know, I can show you goals from 11, 15 years ago. That's also probably very important in terms of your planning and actually having a direction. And the direction will change, but for that year, for that year, you've got, you know where you're going roughly. And then you just continue to follow and build on that. I think that's been a really good backbone to our business.

Awesome guys. Well, we're on the hour, so I've got to let you go, but we could probably chat for a lot longer about your business. I'm being a student at the moment, so enjoying the chat, but I really appreciate you coming on today. Any final advice for the builders listening out there that you want to share?

Yeah, I'd like to say, yeah, obviously thank you for listening. If you ever want to reach out to Paul or myself, we'd always be happy to speak to anybody that, like we said, we love what we do and we're happy to help anybody. And we're advocates for the industry and want to see everyone do well. So yeah, we're very approachable.

I would say, I'm just looking at your questions, Will. For builders listening who feel stuck or overwhelmed, what advice would you give? I think, yeah, look, building's a super tough industry and then the problem's just around the corner. So I think, yeah, just be positive. Always have a, like most things, most times a conversation will sort of fix an issue rather than smashing out an email. Even, yeah, just having a sleep on things and just being— waking up with a fresh perspective. Like, just, yeah, like, just be, just be positive, just be humble, and then just try and attack, attack the problems head-on. Like, don't hide from the problem. If you put— if you had a problem, put your hand up. Most clients will be like, mate, they'll say, oh, you've put your hand up, and it'll probably just go away. Like, they'll just be open with that. Like, just be human. Just try and be as human as possible goes a long way. So yeah, like Anthony said, if anyone wants to reach out to us, we're more than willing to have a chat or send some emails around. But yeah, thanks for listening. It's been awesome.

Yeah, well, Paul, thanks for checking out my, my questions. I think I only asked you like one of them in the end, but everything you guys are talking about was way more interesting than stuff I prepared for. So I was like, what's wrong with this?

Um, we always love to sort of give our feedback and, you know, just our learnings because yeah, we can help, you know, if we can even share some wisdom or help anybody, that's positive.

So yeah, help, help and inspire because we, we were there too and we're still on this journey. It's definitely, like I said at the start, it's fun and yeah, it's, it's to be enjoyed for sure. Cool.

Well yeah, we'll drop mancinimade.com.au in the show notes as well as Mancini Made on Instagram. Go check them out, highly recommend. Yeah, if you— I mean, if you want to connect with Anthony and Paul too, be silly not to. So Guys, thanks so much for coming on today. I've learned a lot and I know it's been a great episode for the listeners.

No, I appreciate it, Will. Thank you very much.

Awesome, Will. Thanks for having us and we really enjoyed it as well.