24. Using Story Telling To Grow A Building Company With Jimmy McKinney

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Hello and welcome to the Professional Builder Secrets podcast, a podcast by the association of Professional Builders for building company owners, general managers, VPs and emerging leaders. Here we discuss all things running a professional building company from sales, processes, financials, operations and marketing. I'm joined today by Jimmy McKinney, president of JNR Construction, based out of Lexington, Kentucky. Jimmy, welcome and thank you for being here today.

Yeah, thanks Bosco. Thanks for having me. And thanks for all those listening out there.

Absolutely. We're so excited to have you. Tell us a little bit about you. How did you get started and how did J and R construction come to life?

So my grandfather and great grandfather owned some sawmills in eastern Kentucky. We're in the United States. We're right, you know, almost in the kind of the center to the east a little bit. Owned sawmills in the eastern part of the state and started doing a lot of handcrafted furniture and things like that. And my father worked for the oil company, but he also did a lot of building projects and things growing up. He actually built our house when I was born, the house that we lived in. And so through that and that became a love of mine. I remember being 10 years old and built a clubhouse in our backyard and I was just proud that the roof didn't leak. So put some pallets together and some walls, but I remember the shingles. I lined up all the lines so it wasn't staggered like it's supposed to be. So I remember that was one thing that got pointed out to me early on in my building care. But I took a lot of woodworking and drafting classes in high school and then went off to college, went off into the military, got back, started with a local lumber company, which was actually a national lumber company, and started transferring around, got promoted, transferred to assistant manager, was in Raleigh, North Carolina for a year and a half, then was in Atlanta, Georgia for over a year, but it was really in Raleigh in the mid-90s. So 1996, I was a meta superintendent with a large home builder down there. We became good friends. We started building a lot of decks and screening porches together. So that's where it started. Kind of started as McKinney deck builders back then and then as I moved back to Kentucky and worked for another local contractor and then started JNR. It was 2003, so I just got married in 2002 in August. About six months later, started J and R. I think a couple months after that we found out we were pregnant with our first daughter. And ever since then my wife's been a stay at home mom. And you know, the ups and downs of owning a business from the start. I think I had almost $700 when I started.

Wow. So it sounds like you discovered your purpose at a very young age and this was something that you wanted to do. Is it fair to say that, you know, there were moments when you second guessed whether this was the purpose you wanted to go after or pursue starting jnr?

Everybody has their different beliefs and stuff, but it's like, all right, Lord, if you want me to start this full time, you're going to give me a stupid sign. And he did twice. So I was like, okay, that's, it's time to start. Ever since then, and I don't know, I would hope that there's other business owners like me, that there's a handful of times that you want to just wad it up and throw it out the door. You know, it's like, I go work for somebody and not have to deal with any of this stuff. But that's rare. You know, I can count on my hands and not use all my fingers that I've done that over the years. So it's been a journey, ups and downs, times I haven't paid myself. There's been times we've been on medical cards and food stamps as a family. So it's now got to that point. You have that vision and that calling early on in my DNA and my blood, I don't quit. I did a lot of sports and was very competitive growing up and still am. I think that's the key thing, I think, for business owners and especially entrepreneurs, and a lot of them will tell you it's like you get to the island, you get off the ship, you start up the hill and you turn around, the ships are on fire. Burn those ships, there's no going back. That's what you've got to have to make it. A lot of times, and especially in this industry, sometimes it can be very challenging.

Let's go down memory lane for a second and let's think about that pivotal moment when you said, I'm going to now transform this deck company to a building company. Because there was a moment in time when, like you said, you Started off in the deck business. So tell me a little bit about what those moments were where you gave yourself permission to succeed and go, hey, I'm going to actually build a professional building company.

There was probably two years I was working for another remodeling company and I was just doing a lot of the decks became other projects. I started laying some tile and doing just general remodeling projects. That's what we are as a company. We're a full service design, build home remodeling company. I have built houses in the past. I've done commercial projects in the past. We've done insurance work in the past. But that's some of the advice I got early on was to focus our niche early on. So that's what we just stay in our lane of residential remodeling now. I remember laying tile on a guy's house at 1:00 clock in the morning and lots of weekends and evenings and it just got to a point to where I started having to take extra days off of my day job to do my projects. And that's where I was like, okay, is this, is it time to make that move? You know, like I said, I didn't have a bunch of money saved up to have a cushion for a year if I didn't make any money. It just, just started. So that was, that was kind of that, that moment that really it was on my knees in that prayer, that and having two different people in the span of two weeks say the same verbatim sentence, word for word. I just knew in my spirit that second time that it was like my. I remember my wife picked me up that afternoon and when I got in the car I was like, yeah, we're going to start full time here in about a week. And she's like, okay, so you're paying.

Attention to the signs from the universe, I guess is what they say. But you know, when you were starting out, did you have that long term vision that you would be where you are today? I mean, you know, I was looking up your company and you've got multiple locations now and you know, you've grown as well. Did you have that DNA and mindset that this is where you are going to be or did that long term goal evolve over time?

I think it's a, it evolves over time. I had a vision of a large company having multiple staff and the multiple locations came about after I'd been in business. So that wasn't really a vision of mine until, you know, probably seven or eight years ago. To have, and that's in our vision statement as a company to grow into other locations when the timing is right and partner with. But we don't go just go into a location, just to go into location. Our core about what we're about is relationships. So we have to have a relationship in a community or in a state or in a market with local people that, you know, we're connected to. It starts with key people. This whole industry is about people that has to have a key person as a general manager to start a location. So we've got some future locations that are in the works, but those may be another year or two coming online, but we're excited about those.

Jimmy, tell me a little bit about the love for this industry, because you obviously have to have a lot of love to be in this. Like you said, there was some questionable evenings where you were pondering whether this was the right move for you. But, you know, what do you love most about your role today? What did you love the most about your role when you got into this business and how did you bridge that gap?

I'll start with the second part of that question. I think the love in the beginning is just like a lot of us in this industry, we like working with our hands, we like seeing a project come together, something being built. You know, when I first started, I was tool belt on during the day, office manager at night. You know, it was just me, you know, and now we've grown to, you know, a staff of. I think we'll. We're at 22 is how much, how many staff we have now. And so the love, it's something different every single day. It's something different. Every client is different, every personality is different, every project. I can go back over 19 years and I don't think I've got the same dollar amount to the penny project that I've done ever. There's always something that's a little bit different about each project. So that's what I like about this industry, is that it's, it's ever changing. The products are getting better, longer lasting. I think it's. For me, this industry is opposite of some mechanical industries, maybe like the car industry that we're putting in, things that last longer. We're actually giving longer warranties now as a company than we used to early on because products are lasting longer now.

For our builders out there, they're probably going to be curious to go, well, what was the X factor that led to this growth? You talked about, alluded to the fact that you Build relationships in communities. You've got 22 people working for you now. But what was that magic factor that allowed you to 10x your business? To the point now that you are at this place today, what would you contribute your growing factors to?

Focus is a key word. I've got a sticky note here. You can't see it, but it's on my screen. It's a quote from a book I read a long time ago. It says if everything is important, then nothing is. Early on, if you want me to build you a doghouse, I was going to build a dog house. You know, I was taking anything that you could take. But then over the years, you can start to narrow that focus. You can start to say no to the things you don't want to do and more yeses to the things you want to do. Because within this industry, there's a lot of people that I know that are just kitchen remodelers, that they're just bathroom remodelers and say no to those other projects. I think for us one those relationships, we also things that we say no to, we have partnerships with other contractors that we refer people to that we know are going to do a good job. We might even compete with them on certain projects but not certain other ones. We're always, whether you call us, anytime somebody calls us, we're going to be able to either help you or refer someone that can help you. So I think keeping that focus on relationships, the key moment I think was we moved to this office in Lexington in December of 2013 and I think I still hadn't broken a million dollars at that point in sales. And I think it was the next year when we did. It's like getting into a new space. We started doing more design at that point. So I think when we started focusing more on the design build aspect and that grew, that's when that shift happened for us. And we've been able to focus on that and really handhold our clients through the whole process. You know, remodel building still has ups and downs. You're living in the house while it's being torn up. And so it's very challenging as a client and those listening know you, I'm sure you can call to mind those five clients that you're having difficulties with right now. I think that was the key moment when we started focusing on that hand holding, that design process where we can take our clients from design to drawing to handholding of shopping, helping them make selections all the way through the construction, all in one house. Whether we offered the design or not, or it came from an architect outside. We're kind of that one stop shop for that. And I think that's catching on around the globe with the design build movement. And the design build movement is not that old in the residential world. It's not that old. So it's pretty exciting.

Now tell us a little bit about digital storytelling. And, you know, when I was getting ready for this interview, I was pretty impressed with the visual storytelling that you've embraced. But you also have a podcast as well. I was looking it up and it's called the Skinny on the Home. And you know, tell me a little bit about the inspiration behind this and what propelled you to embrace, you know, digital media to be part of your brand.

We're on, you know, digital and seeing each other here, you can't see I'm a pretty slender guy. So back in high school, I got the nickname Skinny, so it all rhymes. Jimmy Skinny McKinney.

Right.

So I was a track runner and a pole vaulter and all those things. But so that name stuck over the years. And then coming into this to the industry I'm in now, getting this skinny on home improvement. You know, our model has been whether you're going to hire a professional, you're going to do it yourself, or you're going to have a family member do it. We want to just give general information to our listening audience and tell that story. So we have guests on just like look like you guys do. We have electricians, plumbers, H vac painters. We bring in suppliers. We actually get some of our suppliers and trade contractors advertise with us in that podcast. So the great thing about podcasting is it's free, basically.

Free.

I mean, you get some good equipment, which is not very expensive, and you can put a podcast out. And then my thing with marketing, you know, networking and marketing are kind of my strongest suits, I would say. And I like to give several touches to a client before we've actually gone out there. So they've seen us somewhere, they've looked us up, they call us when they call us. We actually have several videos that we send to our clients once they, once we've qualified them that we're actually going to go have an appointment with them. We send them who we are and why we do what we do. We send them, and that's a video. We send them another video on what to expect, you know, kind of from start to finish, the short and sweet. And then we do a separate video on the emotional roller coaster. So we Send a graph that shows, you know, from design all the way through. And I think the lowest point is drywall sanding through that and do a video, a visual in that it's not like the 30 minute TV shows that we all watch that you can't redo my kitchen in 30 minutes. No, it's going to take two or three months. So that piece of it, plus, you know, I look at branding and marketing as a kind of an 18 piece pie. You can have one or two things or maybe you just get all referrals, which is great. Love you guys. Love those guys that we like to visual storytell through multiple avenues and not just the normal ones that you think of. You think of Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, all those. We've started a TikTok channel. We do a lot on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is where the professionals are. They're going to spend money to build or remodel their houses or build a new house and things like that. So that's why I look at that piece. You may advertise in a magazine and you keep track of your leads and you go all year long and nobody ever said, I found you in a magazine. So then the next year you're like, well, I'm not advertising that magazine again. Maybe they saw you in the magazine, then saw a Facebook post, Googled you, and when they called you said, how did I find you? Well, I googled you, but you still touched them all that way. So you've got to be careful. I see a lot of guys that'll just start throwing stuff out because they don't feel it's working when maybe it is working.

So you're talking about multiple touch points as well for our audiences out there building companies that are considering digital media, visual storytelling, podcasting. How does a builder leverage these digital outlets, including podcasting avenues, to position their brand strongly in the market?

Good question. I think it starts with consistency. If you're just going to put something on Facebook because you're not busy and then a month later you do it again. You know, if you're not going to be consistent several times a week with it, don't even start it. You're just wasting your time and wasting your resources. So I think consistency is the key starting point. Be consistent. If you're gonna do one thing, pick that one thing and be consistent. Post on Facebook three times a week, add Instagram in there. That's an easy one to add on Instagram. Those can tie together. There's a lot of different softwares out there that can Post to multiple sites at one time for you. Hootsuite is one that we use as a company that posts multiple ones. Some of the ones that take a little bit longer. You know, TikTok is a little more challenging. Takes a little bit more time. I'm a Gen X guy, so I have younger people working for me that do some of that stuff. But yeah, I would pick one or two. YouTube is a great one, especially if you're out on your job sites a lot you can just post little short videos on. And people like to see that the rawness of it doesn't have to be every beautiful picture of the after in a magazine. You know, show them the dirty of your project and you know, how it's going and why it looks like the way it does and all those things. So all those things are good storytelling. It connects your audience with you and your company personally. Because the difference I see in residential commercial is. Residential is more personal. Commercial is not as personal as that because it's a little disconnected.

And it sounds like you're a believer of this because most builders will go, I don't have the time to do a lot of these things. But it sounds like you've actually incorporated this as part of your working lifestyle. You have people that you mentioned that, you know, work on some of the visual stuff. It sounds like you're playing everybody to their strengths as well.

You may not have a big staff, maybe. I was doing some of that myself. My office manager was doing some posts. I had another designer that was doing some posts. You can have multiple people doing it as long as you're doing it consistently. If I'm going to be the one to post to Facebook, then that's on me. If you haven't posted Facebook for a month, that's on me. So it's not on the designer, the office manager. So. But yeah, incorporating people. You can easily add your current staff or a spouse or a family member to help out with some of those things. And with the media and the resources editor, especially on podcasts, you can edit those fairly easily and get those out pretty quickly, too.

So let's talk about the highs and lows with being a builder. And, you know, I've spoken to enough builders to know that it's not all smooth sailing, for sure. But let's start off with some of the biggest challenges you face to date and how did you, you know, overcome some of these challenges?

I think this is the part of the show that everybody turns down everything else, and it's like, all right, now we're going to get to it. This is also the part that all the guests are like, crap. No, there's definitely lows with the highs. If there were more lows than there were highs, we wouldn't be doing this right. So I think early on I was several years into it before I knew the difference between markup and margin. I thought the two were the same and whoo, was I wrong. So yeah, that was a big one. Misquoting things early on when I wasn't getting all the numbers, doing some swags, you know, silly wild ass guesses on what something might cost and then trying to sell it and go from there. So I think I remember I had an addition once. I think the client paid, I think I paid 10,000 more than the client paid to actually get this project done. I've had a few of those. You don't do too many of those before. You learn very quickly not to do those things. So I think that was some of the lows have been some of the financials and understanding that. And what I've learned over the years and having a good accounting software early on has helped me understand my numbers. But being involved in trade groups, roundtables, you know, apb, you know, all those, this is a good group. You know, just what you guys do that will help you kind of piggyback off the mistakes of others and learn from others so you don't have to repeat all those same mistakes and things. So that's what's helped me over the years as well. But the financials, learning those as quickly as you can because you can't as an owner of your building company kind of turn your eyes away from the financials and let somebody else worry about that or let your accountant worry about that. I mean, you have to know and if you don't know, ask them, show me how the, where this number's at. Where do you get this from? All those things, which I know you guys teach all that stuff and everything too, so. But I think that was the. Some of the lows. Misquoting things. We do not swag anything anymore. And we start off with, with our clients kind of if they don't. A lot of our clients don't know what their budget should be for a project. So we show them examples. We show, here's a, here's a bathroom we did at 50,000, here's a bathroom at a hundred thousand. Which one do you see yourself in? You know, kind of. And work off of kind of a range to start the design process. And then get that final number once we get. We have trade contractor walkthroughs now, which our trades really appreciate those walkthroughs now. Whereas before maybe we didn't take those guys out there to look at the project. We would, based on the plumber's gonna charge me $1,000 a hole. You know, put it all together. Well, when he gets out there, it's more because he looked at it and said, well, I've got to run this this way and not normal and all this stuff. So. And that helps the client to ask a lot of questions of our trade contractors during those walkthroughs that they may not get answered at certain points. So that you have the electrician, the plumber, H Vac, the framer, the drywall, or the painter all there for a walkthrough with the client. You know, the client's there asking questions and stuff too, so it's great. So I would say those are some of the highs and lows of. If I looked back over the years, you know, still, even now, you know, we have some challenges, you know, currently with slippage, you know, just managing jobs that you plan on a job taking eight weeks, it takes 10 weeks. Well, you may have hit all your numbers in there with trades and subcontractors, but it took you two more weeks longer to manage that. So you lost two weeks of overhead that you may not see on a profit and loss by job because you hit all the numbers, but you lost two weeks of management time. So that's still money you had to pay out on that. So keeping track of that learning, you know, there's a group that I joined that I actually got work in progress, spreadsheets and things that I can really keep track of all those and looking at and all the software that we have nowadays that can manage projects and they can talk to your accounting software. It just really helps you as an owner get a good grasp on your financials.

Now you become a leader when you make some classical either entrepreneurial or leadership mistakes. It's sort of the norm. If you look back and you look at some of the classical mistakes that you may have made, what is that badge of honor that you're really proud of? Because it's that defining moment that has changed how you lead and how you run your business as well. Is there one that you're really sort of familiar with that you can think.

Back on with staff or clients or both?

Anything that comes to mind.

Anything that comes to mind. I think realizing that everybody's personalities and everybody's emotional intelligence is different in this industry. We started doing emotional intelligence training as staff. So we go through EQ emotional intelligence. I think it's emotional intelligence 2.0. And all of our staff, you can take a online assessment, see where you're at, and then go through that in groups with our staff so that they can understand too and pick up on the emotional intelligence of our clients, of our trades. I think one moment that I'm proud of my staff, of what they've done here recently, is we've started doing a lot of trade contractor lunch and learns. So we bring in our trades, especially new ones. This all goes back to, you know, we were talking about marketing, branding. We've been in business now for 19 years, but we have trades. You know, I hear, you know, people have, it's been around for a long time that hiring issues, you know, can't find trades, this, that and other. We have them call us all the time and want to do business with us because of how we brand, how we do business. But focusing on relationships, we have a lunch and learn where we provide lunch. We bring them in, we talk through kind of our expectations, how to use our company software when they're out in the field, and then ask them some of them. We bring in seasoned trades that have been with us for a period of time. What can we do better to help you? Because they're in business also, they're working for other contractors. But if we can help them be better business owners, be better contractors, trade partners as well, that just helps the whole industry, but it also helps us with our clients and our projects.

Take me through what lessons you're applying today. Obviously, you've been pioneering a few things now and you've been in business for quite some time, and it sounds like you're constantly improving yourself as well as you move along. So what are some of the lessons that you're focusing on today to take you through the next frontier?

Focus more now on getting the maximum results of our, of each, each division of the company and fine tuning that. So Toyota has coined the process of lean. You know, lean remodeling. Like we put up all of our steps and all of our process. And is there anything we can combine or take out or, or do differently? One thing that we do is we have a quarterly all staff meeting. Actually, I've got one this, this coming week that I'm getting prepared. And that meeting usually lasts all day. And I usually only ask one question, if there's anything we could do different or better. What would it be? And that just starts a conversation throughout the whole company of different things and different ideas. And that's where a lot of what we do now, a lot of those things have come from those meetings. And then we also, we require each person to set a goal in their position for the company and also a personal goal in that meeting. We say if we've achieved 80% of that by the next quarter, then we would call it a win. We reevaluate those, pull up last quarter's goals and, and things like that too. So I think getting your whole team involved and having that culture of, you know, even if it's just a couple people, you know, you may have a handful of people working for you and you think, well, we meet all the time. Well take a strategic quarter, get outside the office. We don't have that meeting at any of our offices. It's at an off site location usually and it's free because we, one of our trade associations gives us the space that we get to use. But it gets you out of the office, gets you out of your normal environment and just starts the idea juices flowing, you know, of asking those questions. And we also do a, one thing that we do, we do an encouragement and affirmation time of that meeting too. So we do it kind of popcorn style and one person will encourage or say something affirming another person, they get done and then it goes to the next person on and so forth. So that's been really, really neat over the years of building the team.

Sounds like you spent a lot of time creating and nurturing your team as well, which is really, really inspiring to see. Talk to me about some of the achievements that you've had that you're really proud of. You know, it sounds like there's a few that have come out obviously with all the changes throughout the years. But if you look back down, you know, this illustrious career of yours, what are some of the things that you' really proud of?

I'm proud of the fact that we've grown into kind of a management team that has different departments managing different pieces of that. We have a design manager that manages the design and sales, administration and production. You know, those are kind of the three main components of a, of a building company and so developing that. I have weekly, twice a week meetings with my management team that we're going over a lot of the high level stuff and then it filters down from there. So having that chain of command, you know, just like the military that your people know, you know, if you're the person they're always going to. As you build, you're going to have to build a management team in place because you want to take some of that off of your plate as you build. So you might be a one, two man company. Well now you're going to go to three, four, five people, six people. You may need to put another manager in there somewhere to kind of have that buffer between and things like that. So that and our team has been one of the most awarded home remodeling companies in the state for several years in a row. So really proud of that. This past year we got five awards for five different projects. And so that was pretty neat.

That's pretty cool. What's the plan for the future? I guess now obviously there's so much change that's happened in the last few years as well. But the industry is evolving, it's growing, it's turning itself into this professional outlook. How are you preparing for the future?

Yeah. So in my world as remodeling, I'm just excited the future in the first time in our industry we'll possibly see remodeling expenditures exceed new construction expenditures. And so that's exciting because there's only so much land to build on. And then the average age of, at least in America, the average age of housing is I think is 38 years, 39 years old. So that's, you know, we're remodeling houses right now that are just about 20 years old. So it's, you know, to think about that a 20 year old house is ready for a remodel. But that's what we're doing. So the industry is growing. There's always going to be remodeling, building new construction. Even if it's, you're tearing down something and building it back. I've got friends of mine that are big builders in Nashville, Tennessee. They're tearing down houses and building new ones. You know, that's the market now. That's that we're going to. Because there's no land to build new on. So you've got to take the old and redo it. But the industry as a whole, you'll see some still dips and things like that. But I think remodeling in a boat, you imagine a large ship but also having little speedboats that you can get off and do things if you need to. Don't be so locked in that if something happens, you're like, oh crap, you know, you may have to change. There's been times where we've done home maintenance programs. You know we're talking about a small projects division which is quote unquote handyman division. But it can still be a hundred thousand dollar project can be in the small projects division, you know, so there's, there's many different ways to leverage different parts of this business depending on what you want to do. I've got another friend of mine in Minnesota that has four companies inside of his building company. They do like $30 million a year and it's restoration, windows, roofing and siding, new construction and remodeling. So I mean all. And I think he has a cabinet company as well that he built his own company, custom cabinets and he's been in business as long as I have. So there's a lot of different ways you can go in this industry. So I mean the sky's the limit.

Knowing what you know now if you could give yourself, you know, a younger version of yourself, any advice when you first started, what would that be and what advice would you give, you know, builders that are trying to make it work or struggling or you know, starting out, what advice would you give them as well?

If I could go back and tell myself, I would tell myself to take that 2 to 3% that I'm pulling off from every dollar now and save it back then. Yeah. So if you can take 2%, 3% of every dollar that comes in, put it into an account to build up that reserves and have that three to six month reserves so if something doesn't come in, you know, it's okay. So that would be one. The other would be learn what markup and margin is early on. That'll save you a lot of pain. And yeah, focus. I got some older guys in the industry together early on in business. I think I was two or three years in business, got them together just to have kind of a masterminds meeting. Okay, what should I do? What should I focus on? And they all said focus and niche as quickly as you can. So if I was going to go back now I would say get into the design build earlier than I did. But yeah, advice for I would say get around a group of like minded individuals. So whether that's in a roundtable group association where you're not in non competing markets, which I think is what you're all as an organization does Russ and Russ Stevens. I've talked to Russ, actually had him on my podcast if you want to listen to that. That was pretty neat to have Russ on there as well. So I would get around like minded individuals cause that you know having someone, there's a lot of me too out there and when you can get around a group of other like minded, you may be doing it wrong and maybe you're the worst in the group, but at least you can learn from each person in that and that'll help you grow and get to the next level where you want to be. Because everybody to me success is A lot of people define success differently. Some people define it as your bank account. Mine is doing the things you have to do when you don't want to do them.

Jimmy, I could talk to you for ages because you've got a lot of insights my friend, but I think this is a great, insightful interview. I want to thank you for your time and appreciate you being with us today. We'd love to have you again in the future, but thanks again so much for your time.

Appreciate you and listening audience and anytime any of your listeners want to reach out to me, as long as they're not my next door neighbor in competing markets, I'll be happy to share any information you want to.

So sounds good. Thanks for being here.

Thanks. Have a good day.

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