26. Successfully Working With Your Spouse With Toby And Elizabeth Searle

This is Professional Builder Secrets, the number one podcast to help you grow your building company safely and securely. Brought to you by the association of Professional Builders. Join us every week as we talk to industry experts and your fellow professional builders on everything you need to know to generate more leads, more sales and higher margins while improving the building experience for your clients.

Hello and welcome to the Professional Builder Secrets podcast, a podcast by the association of Professional Builders for building company owners, general managers, VPs and emerging leaders. Here we discuss all things running a professional building company from sales, processes, financials, operations and marketing. We have another exciting episode from the Professional Builder Secrets podcast. I'm joined today by co founders to Toby and Elizabeth Zuro from High Water Homes. Thanks for being here today, guys.

G', day Bosco. Great to be here, mate.

Thanks for having us. Bosco, we're excited to have a chat with you tonight.

Tell me a little bit about High Water homes.

Yeah, High Water Homes. We are a boutique custom home building specialist and we're situated in a little town called Camden which is about 45 minutes southwest of Sydney. We employ 11 staff within our team, that includes Toby and myself and we've been operating for 10 years. We celebrated our 10 year anniversary, September last year. Yeah, that's just a little bit, little bit of information about High Water.

Wasn't much of a celebration there with COVID We wanted to celebrate but I think that's on hold, isn't it honey? We're planning on something this year.

Hopefully any exciting big plans when everybody can actually celebrate again? Do you guys have any ideas of what you guys want to do?

Yeah, we were thinking of maybe going on Sydney Harbour with our team and our trades and contractors. We currently just experienced the floods here in Camden and sure other builders around the state and Queensland have experienced the massive rainfall that we've had recently. So yeah, hopefully the weather will settle down and we'll be able to look forward to some sort of celebration later in the year.

Well, if you can allow me, let's take a walk down memory lane, let's go back in time and let's start off with how you got started in this industry and what made you choose this amazing journey.

For me, Bosco, it all happened in the early 90s. Leaving school, I really didn't know what I wanted to do so I ended up going to university and found that that wasn't quite for me. So I came home one day after six months at uni and just came home to dad and said look, this is not for me. So I'm going To take a break and just work out what I want to do next year. And he said, what are you going to do for the rest of the year? I said, well, pretty much without using the same words. It was just stay at home and bludge off you. And he wasn't going to take a bar of that. So dad got me in contact with a few colleagues of his, or not colleagues, but he was a businessman in Camden, so he knew some people and one thing led to another and I contacted a builder that he was associated with and I labored for him for six months. And then I actually went back to university after that first six months of laboring because I thought I'd give it a go, a second go. So I've sort of. I tell people I've got two uni degrees. I didn't finish them, but I did start them. So I just found it wasn't for me to study. So I actually went back after six months. The second time around at uni I actually went back and started my trade with the builder and then got my carpentry apprenticeship out of the way and then worked for myself as a carpenter. Worked on the Olympic side in Sydney in 1999, before the 2000 Olympics, and eventually found my way into supervising for some or for one small local builder for about six or seven years just to gain experience. And then from there in 2011 we sort of start or the seed was planted in about 2008. It took a little bit of time for us to get started, but by 2011 we had high water homes up and running. First year of trading, 2011, so. And then the rest, as they say, is history.

I'm just curious what it was like starting out. And also tell me about your experience with the Olympics as well. That must have been a pretty milestone moment.

Yeah, the Olympics was fun. That was the first job out of my apprenticeship and I joined up with another friend of mine and traveled into Homebush. We stayed in a factory just outside the Olympic park and built the portable buildings that the Australian athletes stayed in and then we built them off site and then traveled the site, I guess to install these portable buildings. So it's a bit different than what I'd normally done, but it was the same principle behind I guess, carpentry and building, I guess little homes on a smaller scale. Quite interesting and really good. Very busy. Great to be a part of it. Such a one off event. I know they'll come back again one day, but it was really, really, really good experience, especially first year out of my apprenticeship. But yeah, starting out as a carpenter was fun. And eventually in 2011, starting Highwater Homes as a building company was. Wasn't challenging as such. I was actually really excited to start out. It was something I thought about for a while. I can be an overthinker in a lot of things and that's why it took a little bit longer to start. But I wanted to be sure that I was ready to start the journey and build for myself. I did want to do it ever since I, I guess ever since 2000 when I finished my apprenticeship, the goal was to get the builder's license and start building for myself. But I knew it wasn't going to happen overnight, so it was fun. I really enjoyed starting out because I really did plan for it before 2011 and yeah, took the small steps to get to where we are today.

So at what point did you discover that you had landed on a value proposition for high water homes? At what point did you both realize that this was not just a calling, but this was, you know, a business opportunity that could grow as well over time?

So in terms of a value proposition, we sort of set ourselves apart from the other builders. Camden's a small place, but there's a lot of builders within the market and there's a lot of new building happening within our local area. Toby has always said that builders, you know, they know how to build homes, but some of them do lack that service quality and that communication that they can offer clients. So one of our value propositions that we offer our clients is our communication. We make a promise to our clients that any messages or emails or that sort of thing replied to within 24 hours. We have a 24 hour response time and they really value that. They appreciate that we do that for them. We use a project management system, an online system for our clients. And again, a lot of builders do use this sort of system, but we get our clients involved in the system, so logged into the system right from the beginning, so right from our initial estimate proposals, so they can see how well this system works right through to the building and the handover of the home to our clients. So that's something, I think that sets us apart from other builders. Although other builders may have these online project management systems, they don't involve the clients in those as much as what they could. So we saw that as an opportunity and jumped on it. And our clients, they thoroughly enjoy being a part of that. Using the online system so they can keep track of what's going on with their home and communicate with Us and it's an excellent system.

It sounds like it's a pretty collaborative process as well, where the clients are part of that as well. What do you feel homeowners, especially the ones that are looking to start building their first home or their new home as well, what should they be aware of in today's climate and conditions as well?

I mean, it evolves over the years. Bosco. Like when we first started out, as Elizabeth was saying before, and just to elaborate on that a bit further. Sorry. Is like we focus on the builders, on the, on the experience. Sorry. So not just building the home, but the experience of building the home. And that's what we found when we first came into the market, that clients weren't getting that. So we really do focus on the experience that the clients go through while they're building a home for six, nine months, sometimes 12 months, depending on the size of the project. So that's what we focused on that originally and we still do, but that's one of our strong points. So homeowners need to be aware that it's not just. You're not just buying a car where you go and you sign up for a car and then drive out a week or two later. And that's the experience done and dusted. It is a longer experience in the building game. And that's what homeowners need to be aware of. And I think they are now what I think, like now in 2022, I guess they need to be aware, I guess, of setting realistic expectations. And that really is a matter of just the access they have to all the information online and through friends and family and other colleagues that have built before. So I really try and set, I mean, we have high expectations, I think most builders do when they're building high quality products and delivering a service that clients enjoy going through. So I think clients just need to be aware that expectations don't base it off reality TV shows, don't base it off what other people may have gone through or what they expect to go through. So timelines might be a bit different. Quality needs to be found by the builder, not so much them. A lot of homeowners think they just see something online, it must be good. But they've got to trust. They've got to trust the builder, they're trusting us as the experts. So clients just need to let go. And it is hard to let go and let go of that control. But they've got to trust in the builder they choose to build their home and set those realistic expectations from the start, but it's also up to the builder to manage those expectations and let them know how the process will pan out.

And I'm hoping that with the collaborative tools that you talked about in the systems, that does establish some trust because they're part of that process and they see that journey as well, going through the technology side of things. Talk to me a little bit about transformation. Obviously you have changed the business from when you first started. You know, it's changed and grown. What does that look like today? And if you look back, what was that pivotal point that you realized you were transforming the business?

When we first started the business, we were operating from home. So we've got a study at the front of the house and that was where all the operations and housekeeping and that sort of thing would happen. So all the planning that happened from our little study. We'd sometimes also meet clients in our study and even in our house, our living room. So we got to a point where we realised we had to divide work and home. So that was really important back then. It was just really Toby doing a lot of the work, I was doing some of the accounts and that sort of thing, while I also worked part time as a teacher. And I guess as we've transformed, we realised we needed to move the business out of home. So about, I think it was about four years ago we made the big step into our own factory space in Smeaton Grange, which is just about a 10 minute drive from home just outside of Camden. So that was a very positive move for us, being able to actually get in the car and drive to work each day. And I guess transformation also in terms of our team. So just the one man show of Toby working within the business, we've now got a team of 11. So that's been a really big transformation as well.

And I guess there's a lot of lessons that come with managing other people now and not having that home based business as well. What was that like for the two of you? You know, going from a home based sort of environment to this office environment. Did it change the dynamic at all between the two of you or was it sort of the same?

Yeah, I think it was a great move moving out of home for me, especially Bosco. I just found the separation between work and family life was needed and it was too easy just to leave the study, go to the dinner table, eat dinner and then return to the study to reply to an email or do something with the plan. So I think it was important, the timing was right. It might have Been even a year or two too late. But not too late, but longer than what we would have wanted. But for me it was good and I'm sure Elizabeth thinks the same, where we actually leave home to go to work. And that sounds silly, but that's very important in our lives. With three children that we've got. It was very convenient 10 or so years ago when the kids were younger, because they'd get off the bus just down the road and walk home and we were there. Or we could walk down and pick them up and do what we needed to do with them. So in my life, in my light. Sorry, Elizabeth may disagree, but it's been better for us, moving out of home. Yeah. So we can have that work, family life, separation.

And Elizabeth, tell us your version of the story.

Now, this could be different. No, I do agree. Within the study where we were working, we're actually sitting a metre away from each other and working sort of 8 to 10 hours a day opposite each other. Sometimes we wouldn't even say a word to each other throughout the whole day, even though we're that close. So now we actually have our own offices, which is, I think, a good move. So we actually have a dividing wall between us, which is even better. So it just helps us to, I guess, define our roles as well. You know, although we husband and wife and we also work together five days a week, it's important to have some separation. So, yeah, it was a very positive move.

Just so you know, Bosco, that wall that's in place in our office now, that wasn't there originally. Elizabeth refused to come and work from the office unless that wall was in place to separate me from her. So I didn't know how to take that when she told me the wall must go in, but it's there and it works.

Well, I think you just have to take it as a compliment at this point. Right. Trying to tell me a little bit about the association of Professional Builders. Obviously you're one of the distinguished members and part of the coaching program, but how did. How did your relationship with the group start off with the association of Professional Builders?

I'm not sure of the year. I guess Russ would remember the year, but it might have been 2013 or 2014. But we got involved with CocoStruck, which is our online management system, and Russ and the guys at APB would, I guess, distribute Cocoa Struck within Australia. So that's how, I guess they reached out to us and just receiving some emails and information from Russ and obviously I'm a very curious Guy and I wanted to improve the business or see where we could improve and just made sense to look further into it. So we joined them, I think it was in 2014. And yeah, they had some sales training programs that we enrolled, I think it was a 12 month program we enrolled into and it was just the information that they gave us. And obviously it was a lot different for us back there, especially for me. Like, I think I've heard a lot of podcasts you've done with the APB recently, Bosco and a lot of people we're good tradesmen, like a lot of the blokes out there are good tradesmen. But we're not as good a business people as we can be, especially when we start out. But what the APB do is they turn us into business people. They won't tell us how to build a home and how to do the gyprocking and the painting and the plumbing. That's up to us to do. We've got to be the experts at that through all of our training or our previous training. But they, they focus on the business and they focus on building businesses only. There are a lot of other coaching companies out there that will be a general coaching firm and they'll just take any old business on and give them, I guess, advice. I've never had any other, I guess I've never had any other organizations that I've been a part of. So I hold the APB in very high esteem. What they've done for us is amazing. What they've done for a lot of businesses is amazing. Just through teaching us business principles, I guess directly related to building companies, they've had a massive impact on our business from when we first started to where we are now.

I love this story because every time I talk to all these different builders from anywhere around the world, being in this business can be pretty isolating. And you know, you don't have a lot of people to talk to. You don't have a great sounding board or you know, it's. You're operating like you said, Elizabeth, some days where you're not talking to each other for a long period of time. So the one thing I observed from a lot of the builders I talked to is the fact that they feel a little bit closer connected and also they just love having that sounding board in the coaching program as well.

Yeah, that's correct. And they have a great Facebook page where all the members are a part of. And if you feel like you've got a question that you're just not Quite sure of the answer. Everyone goes on there, asks the question, get some great responses from a lot of the team members, a lot of the builders. So that's a really good support mechanism and being part of the apb.

Yeah. When I first got on as the host for the podcast, I actually did some research and I was like, russ, take me to where the builders hangout. And I actually jumped on the Facebook group. And I love how collaborative everyone is. And no matter whether you're in the US or in Canada or New Zealand, everyone's got, you know, some, some great ideas and it's a great, it's a great validation too as well when you're in the industry as well. What do you love so much about running a building company today? What did you love through this entire journey so far?

It's obviously a lot of hard work goes into running any company, let alone a building company. But yeah, I love having my own company, obviously for the freedom that or the potential freedom it has to give us. We're not there yet, but the idea is that we're striving towards that goal. But it's just great to work with clients. I think working with clients and taking them on the journey and we go on the journey with them, obviously, and meeting new clients is a great thing for the first time. And then even when you go towards the end of the project, just doing the handovers with them and just seeing the smile on their face knowing that we, yeah, we took them through, we built them a nice home, but we also took them through a nice little journey with us to get them from A to B, sometimes over 12, 18 months or even longer. So I enjoy, I guess, the interaction with the clients when things work out really well for them from the start because they are very nervous. Most clients are nervous from the start. They sort of don't know what to expect or if they do know what to expect. It's been a bad experience from a previous build. So just, I enjoy that part of it, taking them on the journey.

And you talked a little bit about where your companies today. I think you mentioned, Elizabeth, about 11 employees, is that correct?

Yeah, that's correct.

What's the future look like? Where is high water homes moving forward now?

We don't really want to grow the business exponentially, Bosco. I think where it is now is manageable. So the idea now is to get the processes in place and get the right people in place to, you know, to keep the business growing slowly but safely without going overboard with the company. But obviously the Homes. As we built more homes over the years, they are becoming. Their homes are becoming bigger, becoming higher quality from when we started out. So I guess the focus will remain on quality of the homes they're building and just managing, I guess, the client's expectations and doing that in a safe way where Elizabeth and I can one day enjoy some freedom.

Speaking of freedom, what are some of the challenges that come with the growth? Obviously, every builder will talk about what they love and what worked out and where they are. But let's rip the bandit off and, you know, talk to me about the challenges, because I think for our listeners out there, they connect to the challenges and they connect to the adversities that people have to go through to get to where they are today. If you look back, what are some of those memorable challenges that you can smile about today, but at the time was probably very challenging, if I think about it.

From when I started, I guess the idea of delegating Costco, I found it hard. I still do. Mind you, I don't want to say I've conquered that fear, but delegating roles to different people as the business has grown over the years, I've got to sort of get the right people involved to take the business to where it needs to go. So that's a challenge. It's an ongoing challenge of getting better at releasing the jobs that I do. So I've got other 11 staff or nine other staff. So obviously I have to give away some of the hats that I used to wear from when we first started. So that's definitely a challenge. And the people, even working with people and employing the right people is a challenge as the company grows. So I got a friend of mine who often talks about processes and people, and if you've got those two things in place, then you've got the good foundations of a strong business. So obviously the APB are great. They're teaching us a lot of processes that need to be in place. A lot of work goes into that. But I guess on the second point of getting the right people involved as well, which can be a challenge sometimes. And I guess when you do find the right people, you've got to try and hang on to them, because sometimes you get the right people and they want to fly the nest, I suppose, and start their own businesses, which is you can't begrudge them that. But when you've got to replace them, that becomes a challenge as well.

Let's talk a little bit about the future outlook. In my preparation for this interview as well, I Noticed that there's a lot of talk about sustainability in the building process. I'm just curious to know where your thoughts are around sustainability and what does that mean to you?

It is very important, I believe. I think Australia, when you talk about sustainability is probably a bit behind the eight ball from a lot of countries, other countries around the world. But I think what we find in Australia is I guess cost restrictions around sustainability and clients who want to do it and we want to promote it but they're inhibited by the additional costs in there. But unfortunately what they don't understand is their short term costs as part of the building costs, I suppose. But the long term benefits far outweigh the short term costs of building sustainable homes. So we haven't promoted it as much as what we'd like. We've looked into it in the last two or three years and it's one of our longer term goal is to sort of get involved with more sustainable homes and promoting the benefits to the clients and just getting involved that way.

What do you think are the common struggles for builders in the industry today, especially with what you're noticing in your neck of the woods?

I think in particular in today's market is the spiraling cost to build homes that the increasing cost has seen from a number of factors, particularly COVID 19. It's been a big one. There's lots of building going on at the moment, so supply of contractors is quite limited. Toby can probably verify in terms of the percentage of how much it costs now to build a new home. But we're getting price increases from our suppliers and our trades almost weekly from different suppliers. So we need to factor that in because we offer fixed, fixed price contracts to our clients and sometimes before we sign a contract it might be three or four months when we're actually doing the estimating and the pricing of the home. We need to factor in these costs that are coming across the desk each day.

I'm sure that keeps you up at night too when you're guaranteeing a fixed price point and then all of a sudden things start to change very quickly over time too.

Yeah, it's not the best situation at the moment, Bosco. All the last 12 months with price increases from suppliers and trades and it becomes tricky. But I guess going to the apb, they've taught us a lot about financial figures and number and the important numbers and without that knowledge that we have now, we probably wouldn't be in operation. You know, knowing your figures and knowing what the correct, I guess, margins to apply to Each job, even though it's been a struggle the last six to nine months with price increases and obviously signing fixed price contracts, we've got to wear the brunt of a lot of the, a lot of the increases, which a lot of builders have. There are some clauses or some ways around it, but we haven't managed to do that as well as what we could have. But I guess our hands are tied contractually with that as well. So it's definitely a struggle going through that. But the idea is that we'll come out the other end without the APB's help. Over the years, we might have been one of those builders that won't come out the other end, but we know we will. We're confident we will come out the other end and potentially there'll be a lot less, not a lot, but less builders in the market in say, 12 months time.

What advice would you give the builders out there, both new and old, and what does success look like today?

Advice to other builders. I guess the old ones, the older ones don't like advice, but the younger one and the actually, sorry, the younger ones don't either these days, coming up with young kids, none of them like advice, do they? But the advice would be to take advice like we, we learned so much by joining a company like the apb. So the more that builders are willing to improve themselves, the better it is for the industry. And I've always had a saying, and Elizabeth has heard me say this a thousand times, and Russ and the guys at the APB have as well, but they talk about a race to the previously been a race to the bottom. Don't let it be a race to the bottom, let it be a race to the top. And it makes perfect sense. So it means that builders have to help each other. So don't close off any knowledge that you have just because to your competitors, if they're doing well and they're quoting at the right margins and offering a good experience, and they may remain a competitor, but at least the expectations will be there from clients. So the advice, I guess would be to open yourself up to advice, but also open yourself up to give advice to fellow builders as well.

And Elizabeth, what's your measurement for success other than having a wall in between your office and Toby?

I think happiness is important. So when, you know, Toby and I are happy, at the end of the day, it's been a successful day because building homes for clients can be such a challenge at times. And it's so many things to, I guess, you know, can come in, in the way. So yeah, happiness and I think also looking forward to more time out of the office. That's not, you know, an ideal of success, I think both for Toby and I. Yeah, having time out of the office and feeling confident to have time away from the office is. Yeah, I. Our idea of success.

We often enjoy Bosco just a day away. Like often we'll just surprise each other randomly and just either go to the movies or go for morning tea or go for lunch just randomly without it being planned. And that, that's. I don't want to say that makes us happy, but that adds a bit of variety to our, the weekly grind. So it's really. Yeah, it's nice to be able to do that. Not a definition of success, but at least it's a stepping stone towards, you know, enjoying, I guess, a work life balance.

Yeah, I think opportunity is the key to happiness sometimes as well. I've got a, a young British bulldog that reminds me about being present and not overworking myself as well. So I'm constantly reminded about that too. But I totally agree with you. I think at the end of the day you've got to find those moments. You've got to find your happiness, those moments of happiness. Right. I was going to ask you guys, where do you think the construction industry is going and evolving, especially in Australia? What's your perspective of it?

Yeah, we went to a conference last week with the hia, which is one of our organizations, and they sort of have a forecasted vision for the next two to three years and they still think it's going to be okay at the moment. I don't like using the word building boom, but I guess that's what we're in at the moment. A lot of people call it a profitless boom, which is a scary term. But I think the industry needs to just take care of itself and take a breath and just allow itself some time to find its feet again. I think with COVID we sort of fought through the doom and gloom with COVID quite well as a building industry. Then with all the grants that came in from the government, it actually went too far the other way. Whether this is the right word, but it's too busy at the moment and it's not sustainable from that point of view. It's. It can't last forever and it won't. But unfortunately the fear is that from, from this boom we're having now could be a bust and we likely think it won't be. Won't be that. I think the Successful building companies will ensure, you know, they won't go from boom to bust and they'll just hopefully get something, get down to something more manageable. So I see the building industry sort of just flattening out over the next few years, but I don't think that's a bad thing. I think it's just. I can't keep going on this. It's just not. That's not right. People won't last in the industry, especially younger builders. I feel for the younger builders, if they're coming through now and thinking, oh, wow, how good is this? And then maybe in six months time or 12 months time, it's, it's bang, it's going to be a lot different and they'll either, it'll either wear them out or it'll spit them out. The other end won't care for where they land. It'll just be. Gets a bit too hard. So I hope it just settles down to something a bit more manageable in the next few years.

Well, I could chat with you guys for hours, but I think it's been a very insightful interview and we'd love to have you back again. But I do have one final question for both of you and I think both of you have given me an insight of where you are today and what you're focusing on, what the future looks like. So I'm going to go back to the past and I'm going to ask both of you to go back in time. What advice would you give a younger version of yourself? And I'd start with Elizabeth, looking back at your illustrious career as well, what advice would you give yourself and Toby? That question will go to you too.

Yeah, I think having more confidence in myself and my ability. I'm a trained teacher, so I didn't have a vision of working in a building company when I started teaching or even when we sort of had our kids. Something I sort of just fell into and learnt the ropes and found my way. So I think a younger version of myself have confidence to step outside of my comfort zone and be open to new ideas. That's something Toby is always telling me, be open to new ideas. It's okay if things don't work out, but at least you give them a go. So I think that would be my advice to my younger self.

And Toby, in a very brief statement, Bosco, I'd probably say perfection is not achievable. So don't go to bed or don't wake up each day thinking you're chasing perfection. It's never going to come. So put that to bed and maybe set the bar, not set the bar lower, but just have those expectations where still do everything is to the best of your ability. Yeah. Perfection is not there to be sought after. So I think that it'll take away not a lot of the stress. But obviously when you're setting the goals, you still want the goals to be high, but you've got to make sure they're realistic as well. Yeah. And I guess look out for, look out for everyone else in your life and take advice as early as you can to learn the proper process and take everything on board.

Well, I really appreciate both of you making the time to try something new with me as well and joining us today. We'd love to have you back again and thank you so much for your time.

Thanks a lot, Bosco.

Thanks for your time, Bosco. Cheers.

Thank you for listening. Remember to subscribe to Professional Builder Secrets on your favorite podcast platform and leave a review. To learn more about how the systems at the association of Professional Builders can help you grow your building company, visit associationofprofessionalbuilders.com See you next time.