33. How To Create A Case Study With Sky Stephens

This is Professional Builder Secrets, the number one podcast to help you grow your building company safely and securely. Brought to you by the association of Professional Builders. Join us every week as we talk to industry experts and your fellow professional builders on everything you need to know to generate more leads, more sales and higher margins while improving the building experience for your clients.

Hello and welcome to the Professional Builder Secrets podcast, a podcast by the association of Professional Builders for building company owners, general managers, VPs and emerging leaders. Here we discuss all things running a professional building company from sales, processes, financials, operations and marketing. We have yet another exciting episode from the Professional Builder Secrets podcast. I'm joined by co founder Sky Stevens for the association of Professional Builders. Thanks for being here today, Sky.

Thanks Bosco. How are you?

I'm doing well. It's been a hot minute since we last spoke. We wanted to get into the success barometer of what does success look like for a home builder Today we'll just.

Kick off like with the biggest question ever, shall we? We've actually gone through this question in multiple episodes prior. This is where we can incorporate a lot of different things. Success to any professional building company is delivering an exceptional product with an exceptional experience for their clients. But always remember, it's making money doing it. It's all of that.

So it doesn't have to be exclusive one or the other. What you're saying is you're fusing the quality of the service with home builders making a profit?

Yeah, absolutely. Two things can be true and I think honestly the two things actually have to go hand in hand. This is what we say all the time. You know, builders can't deliver a world class service on tiny margins. It really, it has to be everything. Let's go ahead and deliver those exceptional quality homes that professional builders are delivering day in, day out. Let's make sure the service and experience they are delivering is second to none. But please, always let's make sure we are making money doing it. We've got good high margins that can take care of the company and all of its staff.

Why is it so important in today's market for home builders to create and collect case studies?

Well, that's the bottom line of the proof, isn't it? So you know, we can deliver those beautiful homes, we can get photos from those homes. But really in this day and age with the Internet, people can start nicking pictures from anywhere. You can download even your competitors photos, you know, of their finished products. I have heard of this happening in the industry. Like certain members or even builders sharing the story that competitor down the street started using their photos from a project. So photos are one thing, but I think introducing a case study, written video is even better. That is something that, you know, I mean, you can fake it, but that's a lot of effort to go to. Introducing a real case study is that extra layer of proof for consumers that allow people to trust you. They get to know you, like you, and trust you even more because of what they can see in terms of the actual project getting completed. But here from past clients talking about their experience with you, it's so important.

You talk about trust. And for me, I feel like that's a really important topic to open up the can of worms. Do we feel like the industry has changed and when it comes to trust, was there a stigma in the past where builders were looked at differently? Do you feel like that's evolved and the industry is just changing?

Definitely. I think in general people are less and less trusting. You know, as the Internet has evolved, we always say this thing, people are looking for reasons not to trust us rather than reasons to trust us. So you'll look at someone's website and then if you see in the footer, you know, built by such and such, copyright 2011, and you're like, whoa, that's not been updated in a really long time. It just goes on, all right, that's something. Or not sure about that. That's a reason not to trust you. So in general, I think people are getting less and less trusting because of how much is available at the moment. But especially in the industry, like the residential construction industry, this is big money getting thrown about. This industry, let's be honest, doesn't have the best reputation with every consumer. So there's a lot of weariness out there. There are a lot of horror stories people have heard. So people aren't instantly trusting of anyone in this industry. So using or utilizing proof like a case study can really help overcome that. Build up that trust a lot quicker than just a conversation, one on one.

And you bring up a really great point. Consumers have been burnt before as well, but where they've had not the best experiences in some cases. And in this day and age, everybody has a review or an opinion that can be found online as well. So there's a digital footprint. If you're not managing that trust too.

Good and bad, that's the thing. So I should probably get a proper stat on this. But you know where maybe it's 10 times more likely, I'm not sure, 10 times more likely to write a review after a bad experience than we are after a good experience. So there's going to be people that aren't happy with any company. I don't care how amazing you are. Like, it's something like you can't please literally everybody. But what we can control is all of our good publicity. So we can actually control getting positive reviews on those platforms, but then obviously going that step ahead and getting it on camera and on video and making a point of getting ahead in that way.

It's interesting because this conversation is not only just talking about credibility for sales, but it's also about reputation management as well. Because most of the time a lot of us will look at, you know, five star reviews and make decisions based on those little, you know, tiny objects that sit on a website, right? So it's, it's interesting you bring that.

Up, but this is like building a home. So it's again, it's one of those things, right? You can see all these five star reviews and you're like, okay, but I think now we're all a bit more switched on. Are they real? You know, like these questions. So it's just because we're asking that question, are they real? You know, is this legit? Like we might be questioning it. It's not a reason not to get those five star reviews. It's a reason to do more, get more of those reviews, but then go further, get those video success stories, video case studies, do completed galleries of all your finished homes, you know, keep your socials up to date. It's like you say, it's that trust factor.

So what do you have to say to builders that come to you and say, you know, how do you motivate customers to give you a case study? Do you actual builders that come into your coaching program that go, but sky, I just, it's hard getting these, these case studies and testimonials and it's so much work. What do you say to that?

I agree. It is because at the end of the day, of course it is. Because if it was super easy, wouldn't every single professional builder just have them coming out of their ears? You know, like every single, not even professional builder, every builder would. So it actually, it is work. But like everything we do at apb, if you can create a system and systematically roll it out and just ensure you're proactively asking for them? Because I think that's the biggest mistake. They don't just happen. You can't just like literally deliver an amazing home with an exceptional experience and just expect they're going to say great things. It comes back to, you know, you're 10 times more likely to write a negative review rather than a positive review after that, after an experience. So how can you motivate your customers like your clients that you've built for to give a case study? Quite frankly, you ask them. But there's a lot of work that goes into making sure that by the time you ask them, you know what the answer is, they're falling over themselves to talk about you. So that comes back to delivering an exceptional product with an exceptional service. Mistakes happen, things happen. Goodness, you'll be working with them for 6, 9, 12, 18 months before you get to that handover point. You know, if you're doing the design and build, so things are going to be happening. So it was like when a problem happened, how did you proactively solve it for them? That, like, you're getting judged on every single thing. And if you can keep exceeding their expectations and just being that constant to them, you want to make sure by the time you go ahead and actually ask for that, for them to participate in a video testimonial or a video case study, you know their answer is going to be yes, they'll be falling over themselves. And then it's just admin at that point, getting it all set up, you get your camera crew there, you can get all the filming and photography done. And that sort of. It becomes the easiest bit. I think the hardest hurdle is actually getting the agreement to do it.

I would say it sounds like what you're saying is also it holds the owners accountable for success as well and, you know, sort of be responsible to push the envelope, not just deliver a service in many ways too.

Definitely. And think as you scale your building company as the owner, you're most likely not going to be involved with every single client anymore. So if we can have goals in terms for our company, we want X amount of reviews, or we want a referral after every project, or we want at least X amount of video case studies a year that ensures that our team is still delivering that exceptional product with an exceptional service that people are still happy to get on camera and actually share that.

You just brought up an interesting point too. You just said as a business owner, you might not be across all the clients. So now you need to have a system to make sure that your staff are actually doing what they need to do and delivering things on time.

Totally. And it shouldn't be down to anyone remembering. We want to put something as simple as a case study into a process and the thing is, you can get these case studies done at any point in time in the process. Obviously, probably the easiest one, I would say, is at handover, once they've got their beautiful new home because they're all excited, or even once they've had it all furnished and kitted out and they had it all decorated, because you can get much more beautiful photos from that point. You can ask for a review, referral, case study at any point in the process. You just need to catch them on a win, catch them on a success.

And catch them when they're in a good mood.

Yeah, well, exactly. You don't ask them when there's a problem happening. Right?

That's true. Well, let's rip the band aid off and let's get into, you know, what goes into a successful case study. And what are you seeing today that's actually delivering results?

Well, there's actually an art to delivering a good professional case study that actually works. There's a big difference. Maybe we should talk about this. There's a difference between a testimonial and a case study.

Let's dig a little deeper into the differences between the two.

So a testimonial is when someone literally just speaks and praises your building company, which, might I add, is fantastic. We do want them. I'm not saying they're not great at all, but a testimonial is, quite frankly, all about you and your building company. I absolutely loved Bosco from Bosco Custom Homes. He couldn't have done a better job. Love everything about the process, blah, blah, blah. That's a testimonial, and we want a ton of them. But what gives a lot of clout in your entire marketing process that will help in your sales process is producing what we've been talking about, which is a case study. And case studies are a little bit different because they're actually a story and they focus all about the client. You as the builder in the building company, you just helped them win the day. So the case study is all about them. You know, with such and such. We were looking to design and build a custom home in this area we'd actually built before, but it was a horrific experience. So we were really concerned this time around. We were doing a lot of research. We happened to stumble across, you know, X, Y, Z Builders, that's your building company. We went through the whole process. We were able to ask so many questions, and we got the home of our dreams. Now we can have our grandchildren over wherever, blah, blah, blah. You can see in that small off the cuff example of a case study. It's actually all about the clients. And the builder was mentioned as a means to get the client what they actually wanted. And that's what you want as a case study. Because when that happens, when you actually get that on camera and you get to promote that in your sales and your marketing, it's other prospective clients that get to see themselves in those clients that are on camera and can relate to them. They're like, well, you know, what if they solved their problem? Like, I'm exactly like that. I had the same experience. Or we want the same outcome. I love what they had. I can see myself in that person. They're then thinking, okay, what did they do to solve that problem? Oh, well, they went and talked to that building company. That's what I should do. That makes sense.

Yeah. I mean, you've. You've kind of crafted sort of where they were in their journey from the customer's lens, what the problem was that they were encountering, what prompted them to reach out to the building company, what were some of the actions that they loved, and then how did that turn into results? And that's basically the DNA that you just wireframe. But the interesting thing here was, I didn't realize until you actually articulated this. A testimonial is more focused on the builder. A case study is more focused on the actual customer.

Exactly. And that's the key. That's the kicker. I've seen a lot of builders try and produce what they're thinking is a case study, but it's just an elongated testimonial. It's even longer, and it's still all about them. And let's be honest, we all love hearing good things about ourselves. And, you know, subconsciously, we're always like, yep, let's just talk about us. It's marketing for our building company, after all. But to get into the psyche of someone, even your prospective clients, get them to see themselves in your current clients. And that's the power of a. Of a case study. And you know what else as well? They're actually more memorable than a testimonial. And you know why?

Because it's real.

Yeah. But also, it's the story. And we are literally designed to remember stories more. So you're basically like getting your current clients or even your past clients to share their story. Everyone remembers that. So when you go into a sales conversation, these help your sales process and sales conversations phenomenally. But by the time you get into a sales conversation, and we know how powerful it is, Sharing stories when we're selling like this is borderline sales 101 at this point. But what you'll find happen like the more case studies you get, your prospects in front of you will actually finish the story story off for you. I remember that I loved that house. I really got inspired by this part of it or whatever. They can share your own stories with you.

You are right about the fact that people remember stories. I think if you look at a lot of these TV shows as well. I used to watch the Living Room on Fridays and I used to love the transformation that would be the before and after. And I think people are driven by transformation results. So going into that concept of storytelling, how do you see storytelling playing a part in cases? And do you recommend the visual type of storytelling in today's market?

Well, definitely. I mean, bottom line, I think case studies, storytelling, I genuinely think they are one in the same. It's a particular story, it's a very structured and quite literally, by the way, it's the same every single time. The secret to a good case study is mainly asking 5 more or less pivotal questions and then you dig a little bit to get some more clarity. But that will actually take you on that journey. And that story. It's the same five to every single client. But I remember having a session with a building company on this and talking like, it's the same five questions. Don't change them for the client in front of you. It's the same five questions. Just hear their answers because their answers are always going to be different. It's always going to be unique to them. Your ideal client is similar in a group, but everyone's stories are unique. They're going to be just very specially and uniquely about them somehow. And that's what will make it memorable. And that's what you want to dig to in those questions.

So, sky, you know, the most common challenge is budgeting for photographers and videographers. And I think sometimes that creates an obstacle or a challenge on its own. How do you manage that?

Because we all want it to be done perfectly if we're going to go in and get a testimonial or even better and we get a case study. We would want the best photographer, the best videographer. We want the best visuals, the best sound, best lighting for when we do that interview. And then that is when it can actually get really overwhelming. Because organizing all of that, vetting all the videographers, getting it all organized, suddenly it's a big old production to involve the clients in, it becomes overwhelming. It becomes a really big job, and more often than not, it goes into the too hard basket sometimes as well. Budget does come into play, and a lot of builders are thinking, you know what, I probably don't want to spend that couple that it's actually going to take to contract that out and then get it all done. I'd rather do it next time. And it goes in the too hard basket. It goes next time, next time, next time. So that's a big danger. But one thing we're really passionate about here is progress, not perfection. I mean, this is not a podcast about us in any way. But if I can do a little side note, our case studies, if you go all the way back, any of our content even, it's all about progress, not perfection. You see some of our videos back in the day, it was not a professional setup. We were just, you know, recording on an iPhone in the beginning. So it's all about just making sure every subsequent one is better than the last. And I think we need to have that mindset with case studies. Say we don't have a videographer and a photographer right now. We can actually get a case study done. Let's just have an interview with our clients. Let's do it over the phone. Even if you just get a written one initially, so it's all verbal and you get that story spelled out, that is a perfect case study story that you can share in your marketing collateral, pop it on your website, pop it on your socials, and then just do better and step it up each time from there. The first time you get them on camera, maybe it is with an iPhone. We're stepping up with iPhones. The camera quality is getting better. Just make sure the sound is a little bit better next time and then just keep elevating it. And to be honest, it's probably almost better doing it that way, because spending a couple thousand dollars for the first case study you do, it probably isn't even going to be amazing. Maybe we changed those five questions and we didn't follow the formula and we went into a tangent and we got off track. So it takes a little bit of pract. Once you get it nailed, you can really get into a good routine and a good procedure to get that. Exceptional case studies that by the time it's edited and then bringing in, like you say, visual storytelling, because honestly, a talking head video for maybe 90 seconds, two minutes, you want to keep them short, can get quite boring. But especially in this industry, when you've got consumers talking about their home prospects are like, let me see it. What are you talking about when you say this was the best feature of your home? Let's see it. So you want to do that visual storytelling when you can overlay the photos and the videos of their journey as well and what their lifestyle looks like now, that is where just the impact is insane.

It's interesting because there's a lot of powerful storytelling in a photograph too. I find myself scrolling through transformations even on Instagram or some of the social apps going, wow, this is a transformation from before and after. And a photograph can tell a million stories as well. But on that tangent about storytelling, can you give us an example of some of the members or even a member that comes to mind that's done an amazing job or great job of creating and collecting case studies that was so memorable that you remember it today?

I think what's amazing is even in our members group, they will get to share them with each other as well. So I've seen quite a few, but in terms of consistency, a good example is Thai Auro. We've had him on the podcast here in one of the earlier episodes. He's done some amazing visual storytelling and actually getting people to comment on their journey with our constructions. That's based. That's one based in Australia that I can think of. We've got a new home builder based in Canada building spectacular homes. Honestly gorgeous. So the ability to visually storytell people's journey with them is really cool to watch. I remember watching a couple of their case studies Haven builders in and then even Trevor actually, because Trevor Salter was on the podcast earlier on as well quite a few episodes ago. He's based in New Zealand and even him and his team actually have invested in like they're all stepping up and moving into professionally produced videos and yeah, being able to visually storytell the journey of building, you know, really big custom design and built homes.

It's interesting you mentioned Ty and all and Travis Alter as well, because I've had the pleasure of interviewing both of them. And what's really interesting is they're also at a different part of that journey. They've gone through that first time being a builder, making all those common mistakes. They're in a different stage now in their career where they've invested in their team, they've invested in their business and the case studies keep getting better. I see Ty's comments and visuals on LinkedIn and on his website and I look at Trevor's work as well and it really goes back to what you just said, which is you know, they started off with humble roots. As their brands have grown, they've now, you know, put back into that marketing, into that visual storytelling over time, which is a really impressive feat. But, you know, they all started somewhere.

Well, exactly. And what's really interesting as well is both of those, just as an example, have actually done case studies for us at apb. And so there's always been like an awesome opportunity to be like, okay, let's walk you through the case study formula. You know, exactly what you ask your clients with. Going to ask you the same ones and we're going to pop it together in a story. So it was borderline always, like a little bit of training as well at the same time. But it's phenomenal. Right. Even if you compare both of apb, we've got Ty's story, we've got Trevor's story. They are the same questions. You watch the videos, they are the exact same formula, but they are so unique to each of those guys. It's incredible, right?

Yeah. It's interesting you say that because when I was interviewing them both, I actually asked them similar questions, but they both had different answers.

They are both obviously a professional builder. So it's APB's market, but they're both so unique. And so you can see now when a builder starts interviewing their clients as a group, they are similar because they're their target market. But the stories are going to be unique and memorable.

All right, so we've covered what goes into a case study. We've covered the importance of it. Let's talk about how do you leverage and maximize the use of a case study? So let's just say we've had a builder now that's invested in the time. They've got some wonderful case studies. Where do you see them dropping that and where do they use it?

That's the key word. Where do you use it? Because there's nothing more devastating than seeing a lot of time, effort and money go into building an asset like this. And it just getting thrown up on Facebook and it will get buried in the feed. It just gets put on Instagram, then it gets buried worse. I've seen them just not get used anywhere and just get put on the website. So. So the key is to actually use it. And in this day and age, you can't get eyeballs on anything for free. So we have to put money behind it to make the most of it. So if we do put it on socials as a post, sure, that's cool. But the organic reach is less than a percent at this point, isn't it? So we need to put some money behind it to get people to see it, whether that's in a Facebook ad, a YouTube ad. Obviously Facebook ads will include Instagram ads as well. We want to be able to actually send traffic to that case study from our database. Because if we've been doing our marketing and advertising right, we're building up a database of our own of all these different email addresses, some with phone numbers that we've had sales opportunities with, past or present. We want to be able to send those eyeballs to watch that. That helps us in our sales process. So we would be utilizing that case study and email campaigns. And I would use it in two different ways. One would actually be linking to that case study so they can go to our YouTube channel and actually watch that video or linking it to a page on our website where it's got the video, it's got some details about the project. There's a project gallery there. It shares the brief. I love pages like this. When it's done well, you can host these case studies on your website, as you know, past projects. And you can talk about what was the project brief, how big was the land, what was the scope, what was the area of the actual home. You don't need to give away actual costings, but you can talk about, these are our clients. These were the deal like non negotiables that they were looking for. Here's like a video of their experience and here's the project gallery. People are nosy, yes, but people also are trying to look for, is that what I want? Because I have a similar brief. How did they achieve that? So that's a really good way that it can properly be utilized as well. It needs to be. I would transcribe it. If you get it on video like you were saying, I would get it transcribed. So now you've got a written one. And I would put that in emails as well for people to read. I would put that on a separate page for people to read. I would pop that in my proposals, all of my sales presentations as well. And I would have them as a bulleted list ready for my salespeople so that they are, I suppose, trained to remember those stories so they can pluck them out at the right time in a sales conversation and say, you know what, Bosco, you remind me so much of like these clients because they came with the exact same brief. You know, it was a different location, the block was, was slightly bigger and it was facing this way. But he was looking for X, Y and Z. And it took a little bit and we ended up doing this, that and that, and we achieved that. And you're able to utilize this proof in a way that's so much more real because you're retelling a story.

It's funny, you mentioned something really important too, and I don't know if all builders realize this, but just having an organic presence in social media isn't enough today. I think the statistic is 1 to 2% of your following actually sees what you post organically.

I think that's generous these days, isn't it?

You know, a lot of the builders that I've interviewed through this podcast, they've actually come to know about the association of professional builders from quality content that came through an ad or video that they've seen on Facebook that they would normally not have seen if they hadn't had seen that ad. It's such an important insight about the importance of amplifying your case studies as well.

Beautiful word, amplifying. Because, yeah, ads aren't always like, buy my stuff, build a home with me, design and build, best builder in Brisbane, whatever. Ads are literally just a word of like, yeah, it's amplifying content. I've put money behind this so you can see it. So we want content rich adverts as well, like this. You know, we've done an episode on this. This is content marketing. And this is another form of content that you can use in your marketing because it's still educational, it's storytelling, it's a bit of proof.

Let's talk about trends, because I think advertising would fall into one of those trends. But what do you feel are some of the trends when it comes to professional home builders today, when it comes to case studies, do you feel that they're upping their game a little bit? Do you feel like you're seeing different types of visuals? Drone, videography? What do you see the future?

Oh, definitely. I think the standard of video is getting higher and higher. You know, we're just getting some really exceptional videographers and editors. Even the editing, I think that's getting to a new standard. Some trends I have noticed, I think this is in everything. When we master something, there was like a joke. I remember one company said this ages ago and it's like we, it worked so well. We stopped doing it. It's when you get complacent with some really good results and you keep thinking, how can we do better? How can we do better? And what's funny is all those small little changes, even after a year, you can look back and you're doing something totally different to what you were doing before. And so a trend I have seen with working with a lot of builders is that once they get this case study format and formula pumping and thriving, they're getting some exceptional videos. Can happen if we're not disciplined to sort of stay on track and remember the why of this formula is we can slowly but surely take a few more steps to the left, to the right, right, a different direction and it turns into a testimonial, it turns into a video all about their fixtures and fittings, which again are fine. But we can't think, we can't kid ourselves that they're case studies because they're not following that format anymore. And it quite frankly just has a different impact. So I've seen it's probably not the answer you were looking for in terms of trends, but it's definitely a mistake I've seen. If we're going for a case study, there's a particular way we do it. It is storytelling. And I think the content is most important in terms of the story itself and the words. Sometimes we can get too interested in all the graphics, all the edits, we can have things spinning in from the left hand side and it can give us a bit of motion sickness. And we're just here to see if it worked for that prospect or not, or that client or not.

You talk about having a system and you talked about following a process to collect storytelling. And I'm assuming all of the episodes we've recorded, there's always resources in the show notes. So my final question here is how does the association of Professional Builders empower builders to become better storytellers in the market today? Do you have a blueprint? Where do they go to get this information?

Totally. All of our members, obviously that are members of apb, we have a training portal that essentially can give them all different step by step trainings on a particular module. And we do have one for creating a case study, creating a successful case study that actually works. And it is that blueprint. It's the five pillar questions to work through and even the follow up questions so you can dig a little bit deeper. Some do's and don'ts and tips, and we give that away in such detail to give our members the confidence on actually getting the answer that they're looking for. But what I will say in terms of really good storytelling, because we've mentioned it to all of our members in this course and I think we've mentioned it even on this podcast before. There is a phenomenal book that I think everyone should read because it's so relevant in any form of marketing. Not just a case study, but because case studies are stories and just, just goes hand in hand perfectly. It's Donald Miller's book and it's building a story brand. And he literally walks you through the five step formula to any good story. So I mean, you'll watch any movie from this point and just know how it ends because you know the formula. Any good story follows a formula and that's the kicker as well, right? It works because of the formula. So trying to be unique and different and reinventing the wheel is how you get a movement movie flop in the box office. So let's follow the formula and just keep winning every single time. And this honestly is actually where what we talked about in the beginning testimonials are about us, case studies are about them. That's where that profound realization even came from in that book. It's a customer's journey that we are trying to tell. So it's actually their story. And so us as the building company owner and the builder of their dream home to get their win, we were quite simply the guide. We're not the hero of the story. We weren't. Can't think of a good movie to give an example, but you've got like the lead character, they always have a helpful little guide and the guide is the one that helped them win the day in most cases. But the hero gets all the glory. So that's what we want to do with the case studies. The customer has all the glory. We as the building company owners, we just helped them get there and we're okay with that because we want to celebrate them so we can get more prospects just like them. So that's a big tip. I would say it's a really, really great book. Building a story brand.

Donald Miller being the Robin to the Batman, right? As they say, that's the one.

That was the example I needed.

Well, Sky, I went into this interview with, trying to understand the elements of the case study and how to maximize it. But I walked out of here realizing what you're really doing is inspiring builders to become their own media hub. Regardless of whether they're outsourcing the videographer, having an in house videographer, photographer, or becoming a visual storyteller. We're really changing the narrative and saying in order for you to tell great stories, you have to share that and become your own media hub internally. As well.

Definitely. We all need to know how this works. You can outsource it all the time. You can outsource, honestly, anything in your building company. But as really anyone inside your own building company, you want to know what the formula is so you know you're hitting it on the head each and every time. Like you said.

All right, I'm going to throw a curveball question and it's my, it's my favorite question because usually it really surprises guests, but in your case, I think you're going to answer it very smoothly. So here's my curveball question. You've been on camera a lot in the last few years. I've seen you media interviews. You've had a lot of confidence over time building all of these things as well. What's the best camera tip for someone, a customer who's nervous or wants to be on camera to give a case study or testimonial or something like that. But what advice do you have for them?

Literally forget the camera is there because they don't need to be looking into the camera to be giving that first case study. Especially if someone is super nervous. Just make sure if they're standing in front of the camera, there's a camera behind them, but you are there asking the questions. Stand right next to it and just say, hey, just talk to me. We're just having a chat. There's no pressure here. I genuinely just want to hear about your experience. Just go out of your way to make them feel as comfortable as possible. If you've gotten them to the point of getting a case study, they've had such an exceptional experience with you to date that they should feel much more comfortable just chatting to you and sharing their own story.

Any final words of wisdom? Sky?

I would probably just say that it's probably one of the most underrated parts of any marketing campaign is a really good case study, but using the art of storytelling in it. So try it, do it, nail it, do it well, just start improving each time and you'll be amazed at how many of your prospects will repeat those stories back to you when they make inquiries, when they're going through the sales process, they will know them because they will remember them because their stories. So I just do one right now.

Memorable storytelling. That's it. Thank you so much for your time today. Sky.

No worries. Thank you. Bosco.

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