36. The Benefits Of Joining A Builders Network With Duane Johns

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Hello and welcome to the Professional Builder Secrets podcast, a podcast by the association of Professional Builders for building company owners, general managers, VPs and emerging leaders. Here we discuss all things running a professional building company from sales, processes, financials, operations and marketing. We have another great episode from the Professional Builder Secrets podcast. I'm joined today by Duane Johns, regional partner with Allaire Homes and co host of the Builder Nuggets podcast. Duane, thanks for being here today.

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to chat with you guys a bit.

Well, one podcast host interviewing another co host. I guess this is cool. Tell us a little bit about you, Ellair Homes and the Build a Nuggets podcast as well.

All right, well, I guess I'll give you the shorten the version as much as I can, but I am a builder, remodeler, husband, father, chief hat wearer. Been involved in the industry all of my life. I'm 53 years old, so, you know, for 30 plus years have been doing it in some form or fashion. Similar story to a lot, I guess. You know, I started out as that guy on the job sites that was stacking lumber and, you know, was really paying attention to what those around me were doing and then learned some skills and did some carpentry, did some painting and said, hey, why don't I just go out and start my own business. Became a subcontractor, working for a few other really talented custom home builders in the Hamptons on eastern Long island east of New York, working on some gorgeous oceanfront estates. So, you know, was exposed to high end custom building and sort of developed a passion for that. Really a passion around, you know, what it took to build these homes and remodel these homes and all the different characters and individuals involved, you know, so I had an appreciation for all aspects of the business. Moved to Charlotte, North Carolina in the mid-1990s, started my own contracting business here with my current business partner, Roger Ketchum. You know, still continue that relationship today. Was one of those folks that, and anybody that's heard my podcast will hear me say it. I always think there's a better way, a better way has to be a better way to do stuff, you know, so that was kind of me As I was growing the business, you know, was very hands on in the beginning, started to bring some folks on, growing the team, and then, hey, I need systems, I need processes. I need to stop doing a lot of the stuff that I'm doing. I think that was, for me, transformational because I got into that growth mindset, started to collaborate with other folks in the industry, got exposed to a group of folks from Allaire Homes around 2016, I believe that was, joined that team. And then because of some of the things that had transpired and where I was able to get my business, I got to a point where I had the, you know, fortunately, the freedom to do a few other things and actually started doing some consulting and started a podcast last year, the Biller Nuggets Podcast. And so that's kind of the long story, you know, I mean, here I am and just enjoy doing stuff like this, you know, collaborating with folks in the industry and sharing what's worked, what hasn't worked. And, you know, my big thing is that I want to help folks because there's a lot of folks that put 25 or 30 plus years into this industry trying to figure everything out on their own. And, you know, if there's one message I'd like to get through, it's, hey, there's a lot of people that have done it. So just take some time and keep with some people that are willing to share.

So now you're part of the Allaire Group in Charlotte as well, right?

In Carolina, I am. I actually own an office, general contracting custom home building remodeling company in Charlotte, North Carolina, which is part of the Allaire Homes Network. And I'm also a regional partner for Allaire Homes. And in that role, what I do is I help to recruit, go out and find other builders and remodelers throughout the Carolinas that might be interested in what we're doing and maybe joining the network of builders and remodelers we have all across North America. And then I kind of act in a support role, almost consulting, coaching capacity to support their ongoing operations and just growing a real cohesive team here in the Carolinas.

We'll get to the podcast shortly, but I want to know what prompted you to pick this industry? Do you feel like you're actually living your purpose?

I think it was, like I said, going way back. I mean, being on those job sites and seeing just some remarkable stuff being built and everything that went into it. I mean, every. I was fascinated by all of it, you know, I mean, whether it was the Roofing or trim work, custom millwork, cabinetry, plaster work, you know, all of it just fascinated me, and I had to try it all. Even if I didn't like it, I would try it. And I think through that, I kind of at least gained a respect for what the other trades were doing. And that was the thing I think that I took to heart most was that it was such a collaborative process, you know, I mean, to build or remodel a home, it takes a lot of different people and moving parts. And to do it right, to do it successfully without losing your mind or, you know, driving a client off a cliff is people have to be working together, you know, so it was in those cases, I think at the highest level, it is just, you know, teamwork at its best. So I just. I thrived on that. I love that. You know, and then learning new things along the way, you know, quickly realizing that I wasn't so much somebody that was not necessarily so passionate about the actual building of it, but I think it was the coordination of all of it, trying to pull all these pieces together, get everybody moving in the same direction. That's what really was my passion and drove me to want to kind of stay in it, make it my life.

What was it like starting out, being an entrepreneur, being on your own? It could be pretty isolating talking to a lot of the builders out there. It's an exclusive club, and when you get into it, it definitely opens up entire milestone journey for yourself. But looking back down MEM memory lane, you know, what was it like from a. From being a business owner perspective, you.

Know, I look back to some of the early days, maybe when I was even thinking about starting my own business. You know, it's a rough and tumble industry. There's no doubt about it. There was a lot of. You needed to have thick skin, for sure. Walking a job site, not a whole lot of sharing. I remember when I started, it was a lot of stuff was really close to the chest. You know, you didn't. Not a ton of collaboration. And I think the. Maybe because of the tough environment and just because of the way you were kind of brought through the ranks, almost built a sense of, you're not supposed to ask for help, you know, I mean, people would get frustrated with it. Just get your job done, go out and do it. You know, when it's done, come tell me. And so I think that just builds, you know, probably a little bit of a defense mechanism. You're a little nervous, scared. So, you know, there was a lot of trial and error. It really was, you know, I had to try stuff. I had to kind of observe what maybe some of the other really good builders and remodelers were doing and try to mimic some of that, you know, and on occasion, you'd find somebody that's willing to share with you. And, you know, for me, one of the early, I would say, exposures to peer groups were through things like, you know, a local HBA group, homebuilders association, and nary the remodeling association here. That was probably some of the first exposure for me on, I would say more of a, you know, a peer group level. Then that's when I started it, I think, even expand my mind a little more around, hey, you know what? There seems to be a few people that are collaborating together, and then there's everybody else.

So every successful business entity has roots around classical mistakes. And these mistakes are the ones that you're really proud of because they actually change and shape your careers. If you're looking back, what's a classic mistake or barrier that you had to overcome that you're really proud of too, and what do you do to overcome it?

You know, that's a bit of a tough question. There's a lot of different things that you look back on and you go, well, I'm not sure if I'm proud of them. I'm glad I did it because I learned from it. But I think early on, one of the things was you're scrappy and you're trying to probably trying to land everything. I think in the beginning, there's that trying to be everything to everybody in the early days was a struggle, and it led to not being very good at anything, frankly. There was a period of time there where you could take on everything. And, yeah, you're getting cash through the door, you're getting jobs done, but you just weren't doing any of them real well. Or even if you did, you'd go back. At the end of the day, you're going to make sure the quality is there, you're going to get the job done. But you look back at it and go, man, I did it three times. I didn't make any money doing this. So that was probably the biggest thing, I would say, is that realizing that you have to get some real laser focus. What is it that I want to do? What part of this am I good at? Focus on that. Once I started to do that gave me some clarity, and I got to be, you know, could work on my skills at being much better at that particular thing versus trying to be everything to everybody. Which is tough because you know that I. When I started I was a general contractor. So part of what I had to do was pull a whole bunch of stuff together. But even through that, you know, you can focus on a certain niche.

Tell me a little bit about your role today at Delaire Homes as well. So what does that look like on a, you know, on a day to day basis?

Somewhat two part. I mean, as an owner, I am co owner of the office in Charlotte, North Carolina for a lair home. So typical, you know, remodeling, customer modeling, home building company. But my role there is really, you know, I've gotten to the point where I'm more of kind of in that visionary role. I'm helping to guide my team. I found that my real, highest and best use there is to create opportunities for that team. I mean, I've got a great group of people from project managers, my business partner in a business development role. Carpenters, you know, they're just, they're rocking and rolling. They're kind of making it their own. I enjoy being able to step back and just kind of provide the resources that they need to really grow it without me having to be in there mucking around in it every day. You know, frankly, I got out of the way. That's what really helped it thrive. And so that's what I do there through that entity. But as a regional partner with the lair, whereas I'm spending most of my focus now is, as I said, it's a little bit more like a consultant kind of coaching role. I help other Allaire offices across the Carolinas in, especially in North Carolina here I help to grow their businesses, I help to support them in whatever capacity that might be needed. You know, and that can change at any given time. You could have an office that's maybe new to the Allaire network and they're trying to grow their business and you know, learn some of our systems and processes. Could have some folks that have been in here for a while and they're looking to expand into new opportunities, maybe even additional locations. So it's really a supportive role and I enjoy it because I'm working with project managers and business owners, working with trades people all across the industry and it's tremendously collaborative. The culture is that. That's what attracted me to it was the culture. You know, you've got a group of people here that are all collaborating all the time on best practices and how to do things better, sharing ideas and that's. That's fun to be a part of on a daily basis.

Give me the skinny on Builder Nuggets. What were you thinking at the time when you started the podcast and what's the podcast about?

Yeah, the podcast really focuses on. It's definitely more on the business side. We don't really get into products or building science or anything like that. The idea when we started Builder Nuggets was, and maybe people will say, where'd you come up with the name? But that's really what it is. You always hear people talk about the nuggets. I heard a little nugget. That's a great little nugget. And that's what it was. We were like, hey, you know, there's so much stuff out there that is being shared in different facets, whether it's from other podcasts and other business coaches, other business owners. For me and my, my co host, Dave Young, and partially through what we're doing with Alair, being able to go out and talk to so many different builders and remodelers, you know, we. There's a common theme and I think anybody that has spent some time in this industry knows that there's a sad reality that there are a lot of builders and remodelers that put 25, 30 years or more into this industry. Blood, sweat and tears. And at the end of that road, they don't have a whole lot when it comes to their business. Generally, they end up closing the doors. I mean, some of them may think that they're going to be able to sell their business, but when they really try to get into selling it, they find out that that's very difficult. Most times what people, you know, if somebody is going to come in and think about purchasing a custom home building or remodeling company, there's not a lot to purchase outside of the physical assets of the business. Or they may want that owner or someone to stay on because they know that they need that person to kind of bring the value. So anyway, that was kind of the theme behind the podcast was how do we help folks through sharing, through collaboration? How do we start maybe paving the way and giving people some of those nuggets so they can start putting them into their business so that they can work towards having a business that really becomes valuable to them. You know, it's a very. Becomes a very rewarding business. The type of business that. And to us, the way we look at that, when we think of rewarding or valuable, that's really options. You know, think about getting to the point in Your business, where you've got options, you could have the option to sell your business, you could have the option to step away from your business. Maybe you only want to work in it 10 hours, four hours a week. I think when you get to that point, to us, that's a really successful business. Something that has created value. And then also think of the value that that has created for the team. You know, you've got folks that may be able to step into a position of ownership or, you know, so there, there's a lot. And there's a lot of things, as you guys know, a lot of things that has to go into putting a business together that functions like that, you know, so. And so that's really the premise of the podcast. We have other builders, remodelers, we have other business coaches. We have folks like you to come on. We've had some folks outside the industry. It's just collaboration at the highest level to bring those fundamental ideas to the table. And that's the other thing that we found too, is you go outside the industry, it really doesn't matter what industry you're in. A lot of these fundamental things are similar from business to business, industry to industry.

Let's talk a little bit about business growth. So obviously, Allaire Homes in Charlotte has gone through that transformation. You've gone through that transformation as well. How did you transform that business? And what does it look like today in comparison to when you first got started?

Yeah, I mean, I think that some of the transformations I'll go maybe go all the way back to 1997, when my business partner and I started the business. It was very typical of that small business, especially in construction. I mean, it was really him and I, hands on. We were the business, we were physically doing the work, whether it was framing, trim work, you know, hanging cabinets, whatever it could be. And then as we would start to get more projects coming in, you know, we realized that we would need more resources. I gravitated a little bit more to the business side of things. So I became the person that was kind of moving more into the sales role, you know, and then with that came more growth. And with that came the realization that, wow, we need, we need help, you know, so that's when you start bringing on teammates, which starts to bring in a whole new host of challenges around HR issues and hiring and building teams. And I would say by the time we got to 2007, 2008, had a good team going. And of course, you know, the Great Recession hit here and we survived it. I Mean, we scaled down like a lot of companies did, but we hunkered down. We did survive. We got through it and it came out of the other side with a little bit more of a design build type philosophy around how we wanted to approach, you know, building and remodeling. And the thing that we were realizing was that we were starting to put more and more value on our time. We were realizing that, you know what, we're trying to deliver a very high level product and service to our client. We want the client to see the most value in it. So we have to position ourselves as professionals, you know, I mean, at the highest level, what can we do better than the competition so that, you know, the client sees value in it and that frankly, we're being rewarded for it, you know, so that just led to more and more growth internally around how we operate. Realizing that we need to have a rock solid set of systems and processes. All that sort of stuff that you hear about went through some more growth. And I would say it was, I think it was 2015, 2016. I was approached by Allaire. You know, they had found me on online, I think it was through LinkedIn, and had liked the work that we're doing, said, hey, we're looking to expand into, into the Carolinas. We like what you're doing. Had some conversations. At first I said, no, I don't think I want to be a part of something larger than me, this network of builders, you know, it was a franchise. That sounded weird to me, you know, so. But after I had a few more conversations and got to know the people that made up, you know, the network, these other builders, remodelers that were very similar to myself, you know, very successful folks that, and in all facets, folks that, you know, large, small, but they all had a common, kind of a common goal behind it. They realized that the industry was ripe for some change when it came to just how things are being delivered, especially behind the scenes. And the idea of collaborating on those things that probably gave us the most headaches. I mean, I think as builders, remodeler, small business people, things like the finances, the accounting, the branding, the marketing, training software, all the systems and processes, we know we all need it, but man, we don't have a lot of ways of getting it or putting it together or we cobble it together. So, you know, to stumble across something that was providing a bit of a solution for that and the fact that you had so many different builders and remodelers looking to share those resources in a sense Collaborate to make them better. It really was. It aligned with where I was in my phase of trying to grow the business. So you know what it allowed for us was it allowed us, and I say us, I say myself and my business partner Roger really did, to get the hell out of the way. That's where we were. We were at a point where we were probably just mucking things up because we were trying everything. We were trying all the different types of. We were trying software and systems and plug this in and let's add one of these. And I heard this in a seminar. I'll try that. It was just constant mucking around. And I think what we were doing was probably confusing our team to a certain degree. Then when we landed on this, we found something that we really liked. It was a proven set of systems. And we said, hey, you know what? Let's take this. Let's use it to its best ability. Let's train our people to use it. And that allowed us to step away, move into some different roles. I think that was the point where our team really had the freedom to grow. And it's, like I said, given me the opportunity to do some other things here several years later.

Is there a big difference between a franchise and a network? You mentioned that Lara's got such a big attitude as well. And how does it benefit a business owner getting into it as well?

I think it's, in a way, we call it the accidental franchise with a layer. It wasn't really intended to be a franchise from the start. That's just. They landed on. That was a good model for it. But the premise behind it was that if you think about it, there hasn't really been consolidation, if any, in this industry. You look across all the other industries, there's all sorts of consolidation, shared resources, and there's really been none in residential construction. So that was really. The premise was, hey, what if we settled on a pretty solid, proven business model, find those pain points, those things behind the scenes, that kind of. That your business needs to run on the systems, the Rails, so to speak, and we just kind of combine resources to grow those, refine those, and then share in them. That was true scalability. You know, the fact that not every individual office has to go through the effort of trying to put all of these pieces in place and things together. They can work off this set of systems that, as I said, is proven is working, but yet still have input into how these systems are running and how they can be refined and changed. What we've found is that the Vast majority of the business owners, the builders and remodelers, they're really passionate about a couple of things. One is the relationships that they build with their clients and their trades and their teams and then building stuff. Not many really get excited about the marketing and the accounting and training and systems and processes. So we felt that, hey, if we could take that stuff in a sense off their plate, say, hey, here's a solution for it. That's the thing I think that a lot of folks find appealing. It's not necessarily for everybody. It might not be the thing that is a perfect fit for every business and certainly with a layer, we're not looking for every business. But I think it's for people that are out there looking for the right solution, looking to grow and scale their businesses. It's definitely a viable option. As with many other options, it's one of those things where you've got to dive in there, you've got to do your research and see what's available. But pretty scalable system. Very risk averse too. The nice thing about it is we try to run lean and mean. We try to say that there's ways that you can set up your, you know, your business so that you don't have to have a ton of exposure to risk and then operate on a, you know, on an, on an efficient and profitable manner.

So how did you hear about the good folks of the association of Professional Builders?

I have seen them for years in the industry, have followed some of the stuff that you guys do. I think it was Eric Cofield here in the US that him and I have had some conversations and said, hey, let's. That's what we do through the podcast. There's ways that, like I said, we like to collaborate. We love to get out information and options. I think that's what's important for everybody in this industry, you know, is to be able to as, as you guys are doing here with this podcast, you know, if we could get more information out to people in the industry. And that's truly my belief, you know, there's so many people that have done things that have, you know, they've fallen down, they've skinned their knees, they've gotten up, they've figured it out, share that information and then maybe that same person found a great solution. You know, maybe there's a provider out there of consulting, coaching, a different platform, whatever that might be. I mean, I think the more people can have access to that and hear about those things, the better there's opportunities for everybody out there. You know, I mean, this. You look across the globe right now and, you know, there's. There's no shortage of supply. Well, I mean, demand for construction services, you know, it's everywhere. But what we have is a lack of labor coming in. We have a lot of people struggling to get all the parts and pieces they need in place to grow their businesses. So I think as an industry, we owe it to ourselves to do everything we can to help one another.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's great to see so many different folks from all walks of life going through similar struggles, similar victories in different parts of the world. That's the truly inspiring part about doing what I do. Look, you definitely have been doing this for a while, and you talk a little bit about not not wanting to muck things up and stepping aside as well. What do you love today about your role that really gets you up in the morning and gets you excited to come to work as well? What's the best part of your day today?

I think the best part of my day, and it comes from, I think, some of the things that I've been doing, and obviously some other folks I've collaborated with here over the last few years, some guests I've had on the podcast, some folks I've met through just different channels. Sometimes you have those moments where you get hit upside the head with the two by four industry. And for me, it was about a year or so ago, maybe two years ago, when I really started to realize that the thing that was getting me excited, the thing I was passionate about, the thing that I truly love doing, was building and creating opportunities for other people. And I've heard that over and over again. But at the time wasn't really. I heard it and was like, oh, that's another catchphrase. But that's the thing for me, that there was a light bulb moment that I realized that's it. That's the thing. And I think across all businesses, that really is, as a business owner, I think that's really where we have to put a ton of focus. We have to think about that if we do want that business that I think we all dream of, and that could be different for everybody. But if you're ever going to get to that point, you have to realize that that's probably your highest and best use is to say, how can I create opportunities for other people? You know? And then ultimately, when you think about that, that means you're growing a healthy business. You know, you've got the things in place that you need, whether it's the resources, the outside help systems, processes. But you've got something that's running well enough that you can then sort of lead, mentor people and create new opportunities for them. So, I mean, for me, that's it. Each and every day. That's the part that gets me excited.

What are you focusing on moving forward? Obviously, you hit a stage now where you're on the business as well. But what can we look forward to when it comes to a layer in Charlotte as well? And what does the company look like today as far as the projects? Are you running multiple projects at the same time? Is it mostly remodeling as well?

We do a mix of custom homes and large renovations. I've been growing year over year and see continued growth going here. There's definitely some high demand in the Charlotte market. We actually have some growth on our horizon when it comes to locations. You know, as I said, we've got opportunities coming up where we have some folks on the team that have an interest in opening their own location, maybe an office that works in tandem in a different market. You know, we see opportunities in a few other markets in and around the Carolinas that we would like to, together as a team, say, hey, you know, you have an interest. You've been a project manager for several years. You've got an interest in maybe becoming an owner. And there could be some partnership opportunities for folks within my existing company in Charlotte. So that's what's on our horizon. We're already mapping those things out and what that's going to look like. And I see more of that across our network of builders here in North Carolina and South Carolina with a layer. And I think just in general, the demand does remain high in this region. I think no matter who you are as a builder or modeler, I think that's what you probably need to be focused on, is that there's a lot of opportunity out there. Yeah, there's going to be some challenges with inflation and supply building materials, But, I mean, I think you really need to be thinking now about setting yourself up for the next few years and taking advantage of it. Because there's challenges. There's challenges within the workforce, with labor, but try to position those in a way where you can make them some sort of opportunity and not get hamstrung with looking at it as a challenge.

We're actually going through an interesting time in history right now. What do you feel are some of the struggles or blind spots that builders need to be paying attention to, especially the ones getting into the industry?

Today, as a old guy, I guess, veteran of the industry, I definitely seen this industry have its ups and downs. It's always going to happen. I have a little bit of some apprehension because there's a fairly young generation of folks in this industry now that have done well the last 10 or so years and have not seen the other side of it. Not that I feel like the other side of it's coming anytime soon, but I think there's going to be definitely some changes. I mean, we've got the interest rate thing I find to be very. We actually just recorded a podcast on that not too long ago. I look back, really I don't know that we've seen interest in the form. It's in close to 40 years, but at the same point the demand is high and people still want. But at some point the client, the consumer is going to start to say it's too expensive. And the challenges are going to, especially as interest rates start to tick up a little bit more, they're really going to start to challenge us around what things cost, you know, and I think anybody out there, if you're a builder, remodeler, business owner, listening, you know, it always comes back, it's always your fault when that conversation comes up. But we're going to be challenged to figure out how do we provide the same things that these folks want and somehow reducing costs. So what is that? Is that going to be collaboration with design teams? Is that going to be making things smaller but, you know, better built? Obviously we're going to have to start to get in some ideas of whether it's panelization, modular building, 3D printed homes are on the horizon. I think there's going to be a lot of things that we have to start to look at that we didn't look at in the past. Because I think the demand's going to stay there. I don't think it's going to be the demand with an open checkbook that it's been. I think the demand is going to be there, but the challenge is going to be how do you become even more efficient and more able to provide it at possibly at a lower price point. I also think you're going to see a complete. I've had some guests on the podcast that have met our podcast that have mentioned it as well. Unfortunately, I think you're going to see a continuation of probably the very, very high end projects and then the low end stuff. I think the middle type projects will probably be the first ones that start to take the hit as things do change. But as I said, I think the demand, all in all, is going to stay there, but we're going to be challenged with how to get the work done for sure, how to get the work done and how to get it done cheaper.

Is the residential construction industry still the final frontier of the Wild west, as some call it today? What's it evolving to? What are some of the trends you're seeing right now?

You know, for me, another passion for me is this next generation that we have to together, we have to build. I think anyone in the industry knows it. You know, there's just. Just the younger folks coming in an industry are just not there. We've got a lot of people that are exiting the industry, from business owners to trades, and they're not being replaced. So that too, as part of the challenges is, you know, this labor shortage is not going to get better anytime soon. We have to start bringing the younger folks into the industry. We have to make it, you know, the conversation around the dinner table, I think, has to change a little bit. It has to be not a bad thing to become a plumber or a carpenter or an electrician. You know, I think it has to be elevated to a certain degree that this is a viable and somewhat even noble profession. I think when that happens, it's going to take a little time. But I think once we start to get some more young folks into the industry and it does start to become maybe even a cool thing, I think their voice will start to change the industry, because I think that's where we are. I think we're at a point where there's a lot of folks aging out in the industry. There's some stuck in the middle. The younger ones, I don't think, have enough influence in the industry just yet. There's going to need to be some radical changes just in the way things are built, the types of materials, how these things are built. That excites me to a certain degree. I think it's a ways off, but I think that's when you're going to really start to see the change. I think you're going to see consolidation. As I mentioned before, I think you're going to start to see that a lot more. Frankly, probably just out of necessity, as things start to change within the industry, you're probably going to see a lot more consolidation. So those are the sorts of things I think I see on the horizon.

What does success look like for you today and what's the future vision for you moving forward? Forward?

I think continuing more along What I'm doing, like I said this, I'm really excited about this ability to help create opportunities for other people and then helping other people create opportunities for other people as I work with other business owners and they start to get their heads around that and realize that, wow, you know what? I can get out of the way. I can focus on these core things and then actually take time and set up these other people in my business to do more. I think more and more of that. That's what I see in my future. And then just I think being part of a group of business owners that really focuses on that growth, mindset and collaboration and we start to see some real change in the industry and just, you know, people living having some true freedom in their businesses and lots more opportunity.

Well, Dwayne, I've got a final question for you. It's been a really insightful interview with so many different perspectives as well. You've been doing this for a while, so I'm going to, I'm going to take you back through an interest version of time. Right. So I think this is the legacy question that I usually ask people, but what advice would you give a younger version of yourself today? What advice would you give a new person getting into the industry today? And what advice would you give a veteran looking to retire?

All right, the advice I would give my younger self is, well, I said it earlier in the podcast, get some focus on what you want to do as quickly as you possibly can. Stop trying things, mucking around. Yeah. Get focused on something you really think you like and stay after it. For young people entering, I would say be get in the room with other business owners as quickly as you possibly can. Do not have any fear about asking folks for help. I think it's the single biggest thing you can do and probably quickest path to growth and success is if you can get in the room with lots of other successful people. So do it as fast as you can. Don't put it off. And then the veterans make hay while the sun shines. For sure. I think we've got a few more years of some pretty good growth here in this industry. I think start thinking about, especially if you're a business owner that start thinking about the things you need to put in your business to make it valuable. And when I say valuable, like I said, it doesn't mean you're just going to sell it. It means that you've created some options because there's a good chance that you're probably at that point where you're frustrated with it or it's just time to get out whatever it is. But the problem is most of what you know or most of the value of that company is probably between your ears. So whatever you can do to get it out of your head on paper, into system, something to where other people can run your business, can manage your business. Do that too. Do that as quickly as you can. Someone said recently to me that you should always be in a position to where you can sell your business within the next 18 months. Maybe you have no intention of ever selling your business, but if your business is running well enough to where it could be sold, you've got a hell of a business.

Well, I really appreciate your time. This has been really great having you on here. We'd love to see you again here in the future as well. But thanks for being here.

Yeah, thank you as well. No, this was fun and glad to do it. And I think we may even have Russ on the Builder Nuggets podcast coming up in the next few months. So looking forward to continuing to collaborate. Guys, love what you're doing.

Absolutely. Thank you so much.

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