49. Design And Build Vs Quoting Plans With Erik Cofield

Every custom home is made up of three main components, right? It's labor, material, and profit. They may not even have a clue as to what the home is going to cost. But the truth is, it's actually much harder to convert someone who's shopping you compared to someone coming in fresh looking for advice. The most common blind spot is really not understanding who you're going after. When the consumer is confused, a confused mind doesn't buy. Worst things a home builder can do is think of themselves as a construction company.

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Hello and welcome to the Professional Builder Secrets podcast, a podcast by the association of Professional Builders for building company owners, general managers, VPs, and emerging leaders. Here we discuss all things running a professional building company from sales, processes, financials, operations, and marketing. We have another exciting episode from the Professional Builder Secrets podcast. I'm joined today by Eric Cofield, executive business coach for the association of Professional Builders. Eric, lovely to have you back again. How have you been?

Hey, Bosco. Good. Great to be here, man.

Well, let's get into the business model for custom builder, shall we? Tell me a little bit about what you think that looks like.

Well, that's my favorite subject. Custom builders. There are really two main business models for a custom builder. They're talking to someone who wants to either design or design and build or maybe just build a home that is unlike a home that they could just buy from a production builder. So they're looking for something unique. Right. But the two main models are where either a custom builder is quoting plans, the consumer comes to them with some architectural plans, and they say, hey, how much does it cost to build this house? Or a custom builder is really getting into the relationship earlier than that. As a design build company, they're talking to people who might want to build a home. But so in that case, it's different than just quoting plans because you're really helping the consumer even figure out what those plans would look like in the first place. So two different business models, I would say quoting plans or a design build company.

Okay, so we have these two models. How would you define each of those two business models?

Well, the builder that's quoting plans is working with someone who is coming to them and they already want to build A house, that customer comes to the table with a set of plans that they want the builder to look at and then quote them to build. So they're asking for a quote. Whereas the builder who does design build work is working with the customer who wants to design the home, or they think they want to design a home and then build the home. So this customer is really asking for design guidance and help at this point. Right. They don't really know how much their budget is or what their house is going to look like. And so the builder has a much better opportunity to build that relationship early on as opposed to the builder that's just being asked for.

So let's talk a little bit about the similarities and the differences between a custom builder that quotes plans versus a custom builder that is a design build company. I'd love to dive deeper into this topic. What do you think would be the similarities and then differences as well?

Yeah, for sure. Well, the main similarity is they both end up building a custom home eventually. They're both paying for marketing. They both have some amount of overheads that are fixed expenses, such as the light bill and salaries, whether they have any active jobs or not. They both may be working with a customer that has land or that needs land. The customers in both cases may or may not be going through or to a bank for financing. They may be paying the builder directly. But to be blunt, that's kind of about the extent of the similarities because the business models are vastly different from there. So then there's another interesting similarity. I mean, many builders are doing a combination of both custom homes with either model floating plans and true design build as well as their own spec units. So spec units, meaning units that they're going to build on speculation that they can sell to somebody. So in both cases, you know, those two types of builders could be doing a hybrid of those three things, quoting plans, design build and specs. And some of these builders have vacant lots that they can sell to the same customer who's walking in and wanting to design a home or get a quote. But it's more likely that the quoting plans builder, if you want to call them that, is working with someone that has land. So if people are coming to you and saying, I want to build this house and here are my plans, they probably already have land. Whereas the builder doing design build has a better opportunity to also not only sell one of their own lots of in that same transaction, but maybe even help the people find land in the first place.

Okay, what about those differences? I think I just want to hone in on this. And in my head, I'm thinking, in many ways, a custom builder that is quoting on plans is meeting a consumer probably at a time when there's a demand for it, too. That's the one thing that I'm getting out of this. Whereas in the opportunity for someone that's designing, this could actually be meeting them at a creative stage when they're not really in that demand stage. Would that be a good assumption?

Yeah, that is. That's absolutely a fair assumption. But it goes a little bit deeper than that because. And I know what you mean, the builder quoting plans, saying, hey, they're coming in, they're wanting something. Why don't I just quote plans and get their money and move on? But for the builder quoting plans, the customer comes to them with a completed set of plans, and it's asking for a quote. That sounds good. But the customer is almost assuredly speaking to other builders. So eventually what they're really doing is shopping builders. That's a problem because every custom home is made up of three main components, right? It's labor, material, and profit. Now, the builders get their labor from more or less the same metropolitan area. They get their materials and their supplies from more or less the same industry providers. So for labor material, apples to apples, there's not really a significant difference in the builder's cost that would sway that final quote. That leaves profit. And if the builder is getting shopped and is in a competitive situation, the main way they can close the deal is to lower their profit. But that, of course, is a downward spiral. And it's not even the worst factor, actually. So it's not as advantageous as it sounds because they end up having to quote a lot of quotes before they get one to say, yes, you just.

Said it's not the worst factor. What is the worst factor, in your opinion?

Yeah, yeah. Well, there are several. So that was just the first problem. But if you dig deeper, the customer may have a budget in mind and expect the builder to be in the ballpark. Or they may not even have a budget to build the home. Or they may not even have a clue as to what the home is going to cost, because the person that's creating the plans, typically the architect, doesn't design to a budget. They design to the customer's vision and stated scope of structure. So if the customer Sundays, I want two turrets and a moat, great, no problem. But they're not getting deep into the functionality, the livability, but certainly not the budget. And architects aren't even trained. Nor does their business model support creating a qualified estimate or budget. If you think of all the moving parts, the changes, the price for lumber, windows, lighting fixtures, then you multiply that by literally thousands of options in many category of finishes and selections. So the horrible setup is the customer is asking for a quote from a builder on something they don't really have any idea if they can afford. And there's more beyond that one more.

Well, let's focus on the advantages option. I think I have an idea which one you're going to tell me you prefer. But looking at the differences, it sounds like there's one option that actually would be more beneficial for the builders out there.

Yeah, so we'll skip some of those other pitfalls. So if we compare the specifics beyond the similarities and issues, the differences really start with marketing. The design build builder is looking for a different audience from the very beginning. So when those people come in, they're looking for guidance to craft their dream into reality. The builder has to continue proving their value, but they're in a much better position because they're speaking with people who are starting the process. That means the builder can control the message, build a relationship, align with the customer, as well as be the liaison between the consumer and the architect or their own in house design staff. All of which places them in a position of authority which supports their upfront fees. Now we didn't get into the upfront fees, but that's just the catalyst to the huge differences. So now this design build model allows the builder to charge for their work upfront regardless of whether that home ever gets built. And they're almost assuredly not going to have to deal with as many customers before a full design build agreement is signed like that. Quoting plans builder has to do so they end up with more upfront fees, more closed deals, more projects and ultimately more profit. And the trajectory in one year is significant, but over the long term it's enormous.

Where would you see the impact? It sounds like, you know, the profit margins are going to be cut in many ways if they go go with the quote model because they're being shopped around and obviously at that point it looks like they've got to cut into their profit margins. Is this something worse than cutting your profit margins out there?

Well, yes. If you're cutting your profit margins and you still don't get the job, then you've done all that work and ultimately you haven't been paid for it. And let's say you do cut your margins and you do quote several plans for several customers. If you look at the job that you do close and you sign and you say, okay, I close this deal, that deal has not priced in all of the work that you've been doing to throw quotes out there to customers who didn't even know if they could afford a house. So not only is it bad to cut your margin to get a deal, but it's even worse if you've done a bunch of work on other quotes that you never got paid for either.

This is getting really bad for the builder. What's the next pitfall or challenge? You talked about having a few out there.

Yeah. So why don't all builders switch to the design build model? Yeah, well, there are some myths, right? Many of the myths of the quoting plans. Builders, I think they just believe things are a little different than they actually are. They tend to think that the process and the path to revenue is faster because the customer's coming right to them with a set of plans. You know, after all, they're asking for a quote. That's great. But that's a myth because they have, like I said, they have to go through many quoting exercises before they close a deal. And so they're actually using much more time per project, not making, not making any upfront money on that. The reality is that a design build model allows them to pull in that signed full price agreement easier. And once they build up the pipeline and have multiple prospects going through each stage of a sales cycle, the signed deals come in more regularly. So unfortunately, it's a little bit of a myth that quoting plans is a faster way to revenue. That's one myth anyway.

So let's compare the specifics with a builder that is a design build company. You've kind of given me the picture from the other side and the disadvantages. I'd love to know what the advantages and the specifics are with that design build company. How can it impact the bottom line for the custom builder?

Well, so being able to build that relationship and charge for that work, let's just say you did five. Let's just say you were working with five customers and four of them, you charge them for the work and you gave them sort of a concept agreement or a preliminary building agreement, and they never went through with it. Okay, but you've been paid for that work and preferably even marked up your labor for that. So if that preliminary work took you 40 hours, you've been paid for that 40 hours plus a markup. And so that's good. Now when you do get a job at full price, you know, project, you're not having to absorb all that extra unpaid work from many proposals before that. Then also when it's a little bit of a hidden situation, when you're building the relationship with the consumer and you're working with them upfront, by the time you give them first, maybe let's say it's a concept agreement, they sign that small deliverable, small dollar amount, great. Then you give them maybe a preliminary building agreement with a few more deliverables, a little bit more money, they sign that. Great. By the time you're handing them the pen for the full price agreement, they've already bonded with you there. It's just another signature. Right. So you're actually able to charge a reasonable, what we would say market related gross profit margin, which in our case for custom design builders, we show that 25% gross profit margin, which is 33%, well, 33.33% markup on cost. That's actually quite attainable because you've built up the relationship. They're not looking for other builders, they just want you to do their home. So it's a little bit hidden, but that upfront work, not only are you charging for it, but you're building the relationship so you can charge more for the full price agreement. And they just, they typically say yes. Because typically for consumers who have the money for a custom home, even if that's a 4 or $500,000 custom home, in some markets, of course, it's a million. And others or more for those consumers, they typically want what they want and they get what they want. And when they want you, the builder, they're not shopping you anymore. So that's a big advantage that the design build custom builder has.

Well, that seems like a much better model. Why don't all builders switch to that model? Or better yet, why aren't builders moving to that model in the first place?

You know, there's pros and cons on the flip side. I mean, some builders don't go down the path of design build because they simply don't understand how to charge for that work. They may have even heard about it or read about it, but they don't know how to do that. So they look at it as a lot of unpaid upfront work. But that's also a myth. The reality is they just don't know how to structure their business model to charge for that upfront work, let alone profit from it. And sometimes the builder thinks he's paid marketing dollars simply to refer the customer to an architect. To get the plans created. But as I mentioned earlier, that's also a myth because that design build builder is not just tossing the consumer to an architect. They're really staying engaged and involved and as the liaison between the consumer and the architect. So they're really maintaining the control in the relationship and doing a service and a benefit for the consumer at the same time. So, you know, some builders, they just don't know how to maintain and control and drive the relationship like the design builder is doing, which I think is sad for the industry and for the builder and really the consumer, because it's super easy. Once the builder knows how to move the customer from lead to prospect to true design build customer with a signed agreement, the customer is getting a home that they want at a budget that they can afford. And they're not just out there throwing money to an architect to get plans that, you know, five builders say, well, you're crazy. I can never build this house for that amount of money. And so, you know, I think it's a much better fit for the industry and the consumer alike for the design build model. It's just not every builder knows how to get their company to that level.

It sounds like also builders need to give themselves permission to succeed because it's almost like they're hesitant to do this. More importantly as well, I mean, I.

Think one of the most critical things for the design build company, because they're demonstrating value early on, they're taking the customer out of looking for other builders. And once that customer has bonded with you, really a small difference in markup or gross profit margin is not going to be as much of an issue, if at all. So not only are they converting more, but at a higher at higher margins. And also the business model allows for the adherence to a sort of a logical sales system with a workflow that's proven for the business model, which converts that customer journey into multiple smaller steps. A design build model where the builder follows a sales process that walks the consumer sort of sequentially through a process that demonstrates value that's better for the builder and it's better for the consumer ultimately. So, you know, that builder gets to demonstrate the fact that they know what they're talking about. And I don't want to say be friends with the consumer, but to an extent, really a lot of them end up being friends because they're building a relationship, not just a home.

You talked a little bit earlier about myths. Are there any other myths when it comes to these two types of business models?

Well, it's not such a myth, but maybe sort of a false assumption. I have frequently seen that the quoting plans builder thinks that they're not very good at sales and this model is easier for them. But the truth is it's actually much harder to convert someone who's shopping you compared to someone coming in fresh looking for advice. So that's kind of sad because the builder, you know, whether he's articulating that to himself or not, he's going down this path because he thinks it's easier because he doesn't really like the sales aspect of it. But unfortunately, that quoting plans builder who doesn't think they're great at sales is actually making their work to get the sale even more difficult, which probably perpetuates their feelings and misgivings about sales. So that's, that's a problem. Interesting. This happens frequently, actually.

Well, what are the other pros and cons to either model that builders should be aware about too?

In both cases, it's about marketing. You really need to know who you're going after and create your marketing to go after that exact type of customer. The other quoting plans builder might say it takes longer. If they were going to be a design builder, it takes longer because they got to do the marketing, then they got to talk to people who don't have plans yet. So yes, it is true that getting your company going, that pipeline full, like with a lot of leads coming in at the top of the funnel, it probably takes a little bit longer for a design build company to actually realize revenue. But once they do start realizing revenue, they're going to start realizing more revenue and have higher profit margins.

Are there some other salient facts that either model, for me, the model that builders might miss, you know, what are some of the more common blind spots?

Well, the, the most common blind spot is really not understanding who you're going after. And the second one is trying to do everything. So I see some builders, you know, oh yeah, we're a design build builder and we build specs and we do remodeling and we build, we do some commercial remodeling and we lift houses on the coast and you know, it just keeps going on and on and on. And actually they're doing themselves a disservice because it's very difficult to be an expert at everything. And when the consumer comes to their website and sees that they do gutter and kitchens and whole house remodels and basements and whatever, that consumer doesn't really have a high level of confidence that they can do everything well. And so we try and help builders understand. Don't shortcut or shortchange the intelligence of the consumer. It's really hard to be an expert at everything. And when the consumer is confused, a confused mind doesn't buy. So it's really better if the builder would focus on, you know, one or two types of projects that they can be the absolute best at, whether that's new design, build custom homes, whether that's remodeling or whatever it is.

How does the builder transition from courting plans to a true design build service model? Is it as easy as just changing systems and adding marketing to this? And if they were vice versa, if they wanted to change back or move back and forth, is it a system that's hard to do?

Yeah, that's a great question. So. Well, the first thing is planning. I would say the builder has to have the resources to do the design build work either through relationships with a few key architects or external designers, draftsmen or an in house staff person. Second, the marketing has to change. That starts with content long before any ad or fishing expedition is started. The builder has to position themselves as in this is what my company does with content on their website, emails, videos, blogs, articles, frequently asked questions, guides, really. Content that is specific to the type of work that they're doing. And then only then when they've got that content, should they start marketing. Now this is not a pasta competition, you know, where we see what sticks. But they need to use the scientific approach, like we do at the apb, so that they know who they're going after specifically and exactly how to reach, engage and convert those eyeballs into leads, prospects and then profitable signed contracts. Now from there it's all about talking about their vision and dream and your ability as the builder to match that or sometimes help them define or refine their vision and their dream. And doing all of that with their budget in mind, providing value through the entire customer journey that starts way before plans are ever created. So yes, you can easily switch. The first step is planning. Second step would be marketing. And you've got to make sure that you can actually do the work as opposed to just quoting plans.

Now, is all that work insurmountable for a builder to switch or would that sort of deter them from switching? In this particular case, no, not at all.

And see, that's the sad thing. I mean, I wish I could tell every builder in the country to do this if I, if I just only had a microphone. For every builder, every journey needs to start, right? So at Some point they have to start, but they can easily learn what they need to do. Most builders are not genuinely held back because they don't know how to do something. They're held back because of mindset and not having the confidence to do what it takes to learn and then make the change. Learning is easy. The implementation takes a driver's personality and, but wow, when you think about the benefits and the different points, the two example builders are that I say, I mean, not just in one year but 10 years later, it's life changing. It's, it's amazing. You know, I, I talk to builders all the time. I was at the International Builder show and a lot of builders said, hey, we're, we're making, you know, we're making 10 profit, that's not so bad. I said, is that gross profit? And they said, yes. I said, well, it would be better if you could make 10 net profit. So they just don't know how much money they're not making because they, they just don't know how to do it. And so it's, it's sad for the industry, but I would say not hard, not insurmountable. You just have to start. Every journey has to start.

Eric, it sounds like, you know, the builders are a far better position to switch to the design build model. Would you, would you be recommending that to a lot of builders? And at what stage do you recommend it to your, to the builders that are members with apb?

Yeah, ex. That's it exactly. Absolutely. They should switch. If a builder really wants to be a professional builder who wants to either quickly get to or remain at profitability with a business model that produces more and higher revenue, which gives them a lot of opportunities, they should switch to a design build model. And so our role is really to be the wind in their sail and to guide them on how to do the things that they need to do to get the results that they want to achieve in their business. That is just very much more difficult if they're out there quoting plans all the time. So we would, we're not mandating what they do with their business, but if they're asking us how to get more profitable, how to systemize, how to do these things, that's absolutely going to be. Our suggestion is go to a design build model.

Do you run into this exact scenario often in the coaching you do for custom builders? And how do you manage the resistance or the fears or hesitance to adopt to this model?

Yeah, I do actually. I mean, just the other day talking to A builder, he's one of those builders doing everything. And so I said, which of the various project types that you do is your most profitable? And he said, well, I don't really know. Okay, so then that tells me I got to back up and ask different questions. So we go down the path in a custom way with every builder. This is not a cookie cutter approach because even if both builders are already doing design build and they want to systemize their business, the way they're going to have to get there differs because they're not in the same place. So it's all customized to what they need. So yes, we have, we run into it all the time. We have to sort of focus their efforts on what's going to be either the easiest for them to succeed at or the most profitable or in some way, you know, what their right path is. Don't even get me started on two other biggies which are very horrible in the industry, which is cost plus pricing model. That's a whole nother story. But sometimes we're not only changing what kind of business they do, but some very fundamental things about how they price jobs. So like I said, every journey has to start. But in our case, every journey is customized because we really want to ask the right questions so that we can guide them in the right way for them.

If you look into the future as well, in an industry that has changed and changing even more so now, and there's so much uncertainty out there and unpredictability as well, do you see a blended model or do you see a room for a future model that potentially builders should be aware of or prepare for?

Well, I definitely see a blended model because a lot of builders are doing that. Some builders, you know, when you start out as a custom builder, it doesn't take a lot of capital because you're not, you're not buying land, you're not building a $500,000 house to later, you know, to sell it later, get money. And so it is, it is harder, it's more expensive to start a company where you're going to go out and buy land and you're going to build spec homes and so forth. For the custom builders that we work with, a lot of them do a hybrid model. They will build a spec unit, some of them will flip houses on their own, some of them will do remodeling. But those cannot all be their main focus. So if their main focus is, let's say, new construction, I have a customer in, well, I won't say the city, but in Canada, in a province in Canada, because they build in the Canadian Shield at certain times a year. They, they have to build at certain times a year in that area because of ice and road conditions. And they build smaller cottages there. Whereas down in the big city where their headquarters is at, they build larger custom homes. So that's an example of a blended model. Other examples are where the builder will buy a lot or two and still do custom homes. What I also see coming into play is more builders using systems and components. So instead of a site, a house being 100% site built, like all of the framing is done on site, the foundation is poured on site. Everything's done on site. What I see happening is, and a lot of our builders, not all of them, but a lot of them are using various components that could be roof trusses, it could be insulated concrete forms, structurally insulated panel systems, floor cassettes, really components or pieces or parts that are built off site somewhere. They're getting them from a factory or a manufacturer or something and then bringing them to the site and they're putting the house together more. I don't want to say like Legos because that's a little bit juvenile, but more in pieces and parts. And I see that expanding quite a bit for, especially for custom builders. It changes based on geography. But sometimes, you know, they'll save a lot of money on labor, but the pieces and components may cost a little bit more. Sometimes they can build more houses more quickly. So if, if you're the custom builder doing 10 homes a year, all site built, and I'm the custom builder that can put 12 homes a year because I'm using systems and can build them faster, well then I've got two homes that are, you know, the profits gravy. So I, I do see the industry changing and I encourage builders to, you know, not just not avoid change, not be afraid of change, but actually to go look for it and then profit from it. Because I think that, I think that that's the way of the future. We will definitely be changing how we build homes. You know, it may not happen overnight, but it is definitely changing.

It's interesting, Eric, because, you know, a few months ago I walked into a few display homes in Australia and fell in love with a few different designs, obviously. And as I was probably in that idea stage, right, and there was two homes that really stuck with me and I remember walking out of the display area and the builder greeted, thanked us and that was it. There was no follow up call, there was no initiative to, to check in on us. There was no, hey, did you have any questions? And I walked out of there going, I have so many questions. You know, I wanted to know a little bit about the land. I wanted to know how long the process took, the costings, and I potentially am the consumer because that thought of designing my own home someday is still with me.

Right.

And it's six months now, I would say since, since my visits. And the thought of that home is still there, but the thought of the company or the display unit that I went to isn't there anymore because there's no touch point.

Right.

So my question to you is, should builders do more in that scenario? And you know, would lead magnets be a really good way to catch a consumer in that idea stage? You know, things like seven things you need to know before designing your dream home or talk to us about what goes into building your dream home. You know, should, should builders take that approach?

Yeah, absolutely. First of all, if you need a good builder in Australia, I know several. You just pick the city in Australia and I've got to build it for you.

Absolutely.

But you're, you're right, because I alluded to the fact that not only with quoting plans, builder and design build builders, they really want a logical sales system in place with a workflow that allows a salesperson to know what to do with every lead, because every prospect's buyer's journey is different. And so working with a logical sales system that has a structured workflow with discipline and routine and step by step instructions, that's critical. So what happens is, first of all, it sounds like you have a builder that you mentioned, some builder who's probably just selling based on their building the homes. And whoever can drive by and sees it, you know, they're not, they're not great marketing experts. But when you have a lead magnet, like, you know, seven things you should know before designing your new home or whatever that lead magnet would be called for a builder. When you see that if you go out and bounce around on the Internet and you see that, you're going to gravitate towards that, because that idea has never left your head. The builder has left your head. But the idea behind it is never let your head lift your head. So, yeah, those lead magnets really work to pull you in. And it's just, it's just an appetizer, right. It pulls you in. And then when they start talking to you and you know, get more deeply involved in the conversation and move you through a logical sales process, ultimately you get a house that you love, you get built for what you in line with your budget and you're not renting. So financially you're better off as a consumer, the builder's better off, the industry's better off, and it's all around a win win. Well, except for the people collecting rent.

Well, it's, it sounds like that there's a lot of takeaways from this interesting conversation, but I think the big takeaway is also tapping into the ideas and questions that your consumer has. And this is what a wonderful opportunity to do this through this model because let's face it, we all have questions, we all have ideas, and sometimes we need a sounding board or sometimes we need, you know, an authority to talk us through that, those ideas to, to really tell us and validate, you know, what those pitfall may be. So this could even be a really strong relationship builder as well for those builders.

Absolutely. One of the worst things a home builder can do is think of themselves as a construction company. Because while they are a construction company, they are much more than that. They're an educator, they're a resource, they're a champion, they're an ally, a guide. They really need to be positioning themselves as the consumer's friend and that's, that requires a mindset shift, you know, so. But we absolutely believe that builders are the consumer's friend. It's not at all an adversarial relationship and it shouldn't be.

So it also sounds that if consumers go down this route and they're happy with their home or the builder has really left their mark answering those questions, it builds trust towards the consumer. And again, deeping a little bit from the consumer side here, but I think this is also an opportunity for that consumer to speak highly of that builder or refer business to that builder as well, if they've gone down the stage of working with them. Because at that point the most common thing they'll say is, you have any questions to do with design building, go talk to this person.

Yeah. And look, the marketing doesn't stop at handover. There's no reason a builder can't say, how's it going, Mr. Mrs. Jones? And stay in touch with them. And really that referral is sort of the highest form of flattery. Right. If you're going to ask them, and it doesn't have to be hard sales or cheesy, you can just say, is there anyone else that you know in your circle of friends or family that might like to talk about a future project that's pretty, pretty passive? And if they say, no, I can't think of anybody, that's fine. But, you know, a lot of times they go, actually, my friend Brenda's sister is, you know, then they go off on something, they think about somebody, and then you get a referral. So, you know, I mean, it doesn't hurt to ask when they like you. No harm in asking.

Well, Eric, we could chat for hours. I really appreciate your time and energy as well, but great insights. And, you know, definitely thank you for taking me through this particular process and walking me through the two different types of business models out there for builders. I'm sure our listeners out there would really appreciate it as well, and we hope to see you again in the future.

Yeah, thanks so much, Bosco. Always a pleasure to speak with you and congratulations on all your success as well. Take care, buddy.

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