50. Creating A Legacy In A Family Business With Phil Turner

I found the process of managing a business really not natural. But some people, doesn't matter what you do, you're just gonna be stuck with a monster. We don't want to be doing this for free. We need to be making money. We're in business. You can be in a job and enjoy it, but not love it. You've got to know where you stand with your competitors. You've got to be transform. If you've got that attitude, you really can achieve anything.

This is Professional Builder Secrets, the number one podcast to help you grow your building company safely and securely. Brought to you by the association of Professional Builders. Join us every week as we talk to industry experts and your fellow professional builders on everything you need to know to generate more leads, more sales and higher margins while improving the building experience for your clients. Hello and welcome to the Professional Builder Secrets podcast, a podcast by the association of Professional Builders for building company owners, general managers, VPs and emerging leaders. Here we discuss all things running a professional building company from sales, processes, financials, operations and marketing. We have another exciting episode from the Professional Builder Secrets podcast. I'm joined today by Phil Turner, managing director from Turner Trading in Tasmania. Phil, welcome.

Thanks, mate. Good to be here.

Yeah, nice to have you. I'm really excited to speak to someone from Tasmania. It's all my places to go. Phil, tell us a little bit about Turner Trading and what you specialize in and how did you get here.

Right. Turner Trading, first and foremost, we're a family business, so it's myself as a director, I have my son Aiden, who's on the tools, and my daughter's also back of house, so she does the office, keeps me in order, in check. So, yeah, that's where we're at there. But I guess in terms of what we specialize in, we're custom builders. And because of my training, it gives us a little opportunity in two areas. Firstly, architectural. And so that's. We do work predominantly with architects. A lot of builders do work, do architectural work. But I was fortunate in my training where, you know, my boss at that time had us work with architects and alongside architects through the whole process for the job. So I was groomed, if you like, in that. So I don't see that as an unusual experience where. So that gives us a little bit of an edge sometimes depending on the project, and also heritage work. So there's not as. There's a lot of opportunity here in Tassie with heritage work, but it's not like in Brizzy, where I'm from. They Just don't have the funding for it at that scale. So, yeah, so down here predominantly where custom builders, architectural. So that leads I suppose a little bit into where I came from, I suppose how we got here. Yeah, so I was back in the day, I was in college in New South Wales and there was an opportunity for a pre vocational course up in Brizzy. And I had thought before that I'd probably be an engineer building bridges and things like that. But as things worked out, that didn't happen. So I saw this pre vocational course and always had an interest, good with my hands, always had an interest, you know, in carpentry. So I did this course and there just were not a lot of jobs going in. Brizzy and this fellow come to TAFE at the end of that course looking for apprentices, which was unusual at the time. And yeah, I went and did some work for them and I was very lucky to get the job. Apparently the other young fellow that applied for the job was, was slightly better but they were just too scared to say no to me because I was that keen that I wouldn't, I was just hanging, hanging around of like a bad smell. So. But yeah, they, they gave me the opportunity and they were boat builders traditionally that got into heritage work. So it's very unusual, but it just meant hands on, you know, those traditional skills. So that's, that's where I come from, I guess, in terms of training. But I often bang on about your training and it being a representation of how you got to here or wherever you're at. Always giving kudos to that because I think that's lacking these days. Just to acknowledge that you didn't get here by accident. A lot of people have contributed to that and in my case that is so true. You know, I've been very lucky to get the training. So that's our commitment now, is to train. I think we're onto our 25th or 26th apprentice. We're running a small operation so that's, you know, we've had a couple on the go all the time and I just want to pass that training on and put some good chippies out there.

Yeah, it's a. Definitely a noble legacy to keep and sustain as well, especially at a time when there's a shortage of skill trade work workers out there as well. So it's interesting that you talk about leaving a legacy as well, which we will tap into because you've also talked about your family and I want to talk to you about, you know, how you got your family involved into this. But for now tell me a little bit about. Let's take a trip back down memory lane. Tell me a little bit about your purpose. You know, do you consider yourself an accidental builder? Do you consider, do you consider that this was the purpose that you walked into? Did you choose it? You know, tell me a little bit about how you made this your purpose today.

Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I, I guess when I was really young or as you. I think everyone does this when they're young. They, you know, what am I going to be, you know, when I grow up. Building wasn't on my radar as the first. First option. I suppose so. I love cooking, I've always been passionate about that. But worked in a restaurant when I was young and that cured that very fast. And then you know, the, you know, architecture in there, always interested in buildings, you know, and construction. But like I said there one stage engineering, I think that was a pipe dream really. But yeah, getting into. No, I don't think building was ever something I envisaged and thought I would have as a career. But we're talk very young anyway. Like I, I started my carpentry apprenticeship a little late. Like a lot of fellas starting their teens or late teens. I was 20, 21 when I started that CNF001 it was called, it was a pre vocational course in brizzy. So yeah, I don't think I thought I would be, yeah a carpenter or a builder as such. But as for running a business, I can probably speak to that more. I come from a family that one way or another have always been in business, run their own businesses. So I guess that's in the blood. So when I did the carpentry course, I just absolutely loved the skill side of it, the carpentry. I fell in love with carpentry. I think it's a wonderful trade and particularly, you know, I was very lucky again doing the heritage work. It's not throw them up construction. It's very interesting. You're learning old rules and old, old skills in terms of symmetry, getting the balance right. So there's a lot of aesthetic involvement and ergonomic as well in the old ways and yeah, just really basic stuff and where it comes from, it's all in there. And while we do things the way we do today and while we've moved on from those things. So yeah, that's kind of. Does that answer your question?

Yeah, yeah. I mean it's fascinating because in a world where we're also losing so much of our Heritage. It's amazing to find someone that's actually started and looking at taking those lessons and then enhancing it even more in the future. So there's a lot of perspectives that come with your craft of work as well. I'm just curious, when you look back now, what were some of the most memorable mistakes that you made when you first got started that you always remember and potentially defined your career in many ways? Because, you know, many builders will have those classical entities that they'll remember, especially if it's a mistake.

Well, that's a really interesting question. I think. I won't say outright my mistakes have defined me, but there are so many to list.

You're in safe company, Phil. You're in safe company.

I'd like to talk about how I moved forward from those mistakes. But look, when you're young, you're new in business, you're dealing with all this money. I said, I come from, you know, family of running businesses. I didn't necessarily define that as successful all the time. They certainly, my father and others certainly had their challenges and battles. So that, you know what I found the process of managing a business really not natural. I guess it's the same for everyone in that sense. But some people do it easier than others. I'm not one of those people. There are things I do really well and there are things I don't do well. So in terms of mistakes, they're all so many. But certainly time management was not a strong point. Certainly is on the tools because that's how you, you're trained, you know, with systems and management. But as we all know, it's the management of the business that is the motor. And that's where I really lacked a lot of skills. So a lot of mistakes were made there. Time management, money management, people management, clearly defined goals, you know, and there are key times where certain things happen. You know, we work for some really difficult clients and there's a mistake right there because I think with, on that subject, you know, you have the opportunity, sometimes your gut tells you, you know, this, this is not a good option. And just having the courage really to say no. So that's. Yeah, it's a mistake in itself when you can't do that. You know, I was a bit of a yes man, I guess, in that sense. So learning to say no has been part of the journey, which is interesting because moving forward, you think it's yes, don't you? But. But yeah, so lots of mistakes. But a key one where things really came to ahead for us was we you know the old saying, too big, too quick. There was a boom in Southeast Queensland. In fact, most of Queensland at the time, back in 2000 on, really from the introduction of GST right through to about 2008, it was just boom time. So, you know, at times there were. I think some of the statements were 5,000 people. You know, it was either a week or a month. Moving to Southeast Queensland from Victoria and Sydney. Yeah. So Melbourne and Sydney areas. And, you know, so work wasn't a problem. We had lots of work. So we expanded very rapidly. But without that skill set that I mentioned before, we were doomed. And we had a business failure in 2000, and I think it was registered in 2019, and we went into voluntary administration. That's my greatest accumulation of mistakes to date. And you have a choice right there. You know, do you sulk, which I did for a week, or do you get back up, dust yourself off, move forward, and learn from it? So that really defines from that date, you know, 2009, because that. That sort of takes a fair while to go through that process, and not pleasant, but, you know, we wanted to maintain a level of integrity, which is always difficult when you're in that situation. We wanted to pay people, so we sold up and paid people and then. And moved down. We were actually traveling for a while and then moved down to Tassie and started all over again. We didn't think that's what we'd do. We thought we'd go back to Brizzy. I had a good base there. Still a reasonable reputation, given the circumstances. But because we. We, you know, we did our best to make sure we did the right thing there. But, yeah, in the end, Tassie got us, and it's a wonderful place, and it's been a great, first of all, healing place for us and going through that experience and also moving forward and growing and learning new things and learning from that. So, yeah, that's the accumulation right there.

Well, I'm gonna definitely dig a little deeper about the, you know, the transformation and the key struggles and how you changed it. But let's talk about difficult clients. You know, if you look back, what are some of those, you know, one. If you can think of one key difficult client and what did it teach you and how do you avoid, you know, for our listeners out there, how do you avoid getting more of those difficult clients?

That's really. There's a bit to that. I think that in a nutshell, if you're marketing yourself correctly, you've got your feelers out there. And you're getting enough leads or people coming in, you're in a position where you can pick and choose. Firstly, if you're in that position where you can pick and choose, it helps with being able to discern better. Whereas if you're in a position where you really need work, you haven't perhaps planned well and made good use of the good times and got everything in order. And so if you're not exposed as much where you in the way you want to be and you're not getting enough, like I said, leads or, you know, client base coming in and wanting work, then it's very difficult to pick and choose because you're dependent on the work. So that's probably first and foremost and that's something I've learned from apb and I'd really like to go into how they changed my thinking on marketing if there's an opportunity to do that in this conversation. But, but your gut, for me, historically, nearly, I can tell you, it'd have to be almost all the time. My gut told me, no, this is not the right client for you. There was just something, you know, and I ignored it. And a big mistake for me that was consistent when I was young is I didn't listen to my wife. My wife has not been in our business in terms of an operational sense, but she's certainly always been aware and, you know, has my best interest at heart. And nearly all, and nearly every account she'd say, why are you doing that job? You know, why are you working for them? And she was right. So listening to your gut, listening to your wife or partner, and I think there's still true things, you know, they're things you'll, you'll know, but doing your homework a little bit more on people, I. In the business world, you sort of think, oh, people have got to do their homework on you and you've got to convince them. It's a little bit the other way around too. You've got to make sure they're the right client for you. You've got to make sure they're the right client for your team. I don't want my kids exposed to a difficult person unnecessarily, you know, and some people can become difficult and that could be as much our, you know, something we've got to work on effective communication, etc. But there can be a lot done to avoid that happening. But some people, doesn't matter what you do, you're just going to be stuck with a monster.

Well, actually, let's get into the APB conversation, because I think there's. There's a lot of curiosity here that I have. So what were some of the key struggles? Obviously, you talked about moving to Tasmania. I'm assuming that you started the APB mentoring program when you were in Tassie, is that correct?

Yeah, yeah. I only reasonably. I think we've only been going with the program less than 12 months. Oh, wow. So, yeah, yeah, we've not been with them a long time, but part of the reason why I agreed to this today, this podcast, is we have such noticeable improvements. And look, you've always got to take time to measure improvements. So it is early days, but I've been doing this long enough to know what I've been looking for in terms of change. And these things are definitely happening. And the checks and measures that are in place to make sure that they're happening are coming up with really positive results. And with this sort of thing, you always get, you know, I never trust an ad, you know, because, you know, you get people paid to respond. This is, you know, my position is really genuine. I've always offered to Dennis, my coach, or our coach, rather than that I'd really like to talk about this stuff because it has made a tremendous difference to us here. I think I speak for the whole team, and we're not a big team, but it has impacted everyone in a very positive way. Our more senior staff, if you like, commenting on the change in me and the confidence that I have and how I've let go, I'm delegating better. I find that really interesting.

Yeah, that's really fascinating to hear you say that as well. Tell me. Okay, so let's, you know, let's take me through your mindset. Right, so what were some of your challenges? You talked a little bit about marketing and financial. What was some of the things that have changed and transformed because of the mentoring program.

Right. Well, when I actually noticed APB flagging for a while and different, you know, adverts and things, mainly on social media, I'm on that a bit and sort of looked at it and went, oh, you know what? You know, is that the right choice for me? The reason I was looking was I've never really felt like I've hit the mark. You know, profitability's never been where I've wanted it to be. I've never been really. I think I've had a lot of knowledge across the industry, across running a business, so a lot of bits of information, if you like. But the. I didn't have the right connection or flow of that knowledge. So it wasn't all connected. It wasn't. It wasn't operating well, the motor wasn't working well. And. And so I went, I need something, you know, I need to bite the bullet here. I've been doing this way too long to not have, I guess, parameters that I could recognize as successful. You know, this is working, this is the way I want it to operate. And that's right across the board. So, first of all, I'll, you know, obviously financially hitting financial goals, making sure that we're. And being able to say, look, we are profitable, that's a big thing for me. I mean, I expect for most businesses, you know, that might be 101, you know, do trade, you know, be disciplined, get a good result. That has not been how I would define my experience at all. It's been really difficult. So from the get go. So we decided to go with apb and from the get go, they just, they really simplified a lot of things. I think tons of, you know, looked at something and got all anxious about it because, you know, it's quite complex or it's quite, you know, there's a lot involved in it or it takes a lot of work. And given that I've been doing this career for a long time, this is going to take a lot more energy. Having ip, the Dennis again is our mentor. Having them in the background has just been a real encouragement to me in that I feel supported in the learning process. So it takes that difficulty out of the way. And yeah, for me, it's been encouraging having someone.

So tell me about your relationship with Dennis. Obviously, there's. There comes a hesitance when you try something new for the first time or you. You start a coaching program with someone. When was your, you know, when did it click that this is actually working for you?

Early. Dennis was able to identify early what some of our issues have been. Here's a simple example. It was needed a clear picture of our figures. Where are we at? You know, what are we turning over, size of our team, what are we turning over and where are we really at? Where's our bottom line? But something in there that came up. Was it discussed what are our fixed costs, you know, our overheads? And, you know, he talked about this figure of it being around, you know, fairly consistently in the industry, around the, you know, 14, 15%, you know, we're popped up there, way above that. And he took a look at our figures and went, hey, you've got your. This is almost embarrassing. You've got your. Your staff, your tradies coming into you, coming into your fixed overheads. And I said, that can't be the case, you know. So once they were removed from that and put where they should be, you know, cost of doing business in the sense of the job, and it's calculated in the job, we were operating at about that 14%. And I tell you that. And like, that was just identifying something so simple that we were. That was a hangover from a bookkeeper we kept. That just wasn't doing things correctly. I didn't pick up on it. Just. Just missed it. And here it is. You know, we're actually not looking so bad. There's actually room to move there in terms of, you know, you can make all the money in the world, but if you're spending it all, you know, and you. You're too top heavy in that sense, and you've got too many, you know, assets that you're tending to, you're gonna, yeah, you're gonna go under. But, you know, we just had something in the wrong spot. He spotted it straight away. He just looked at it, went, mate, that can't be there. And, I mean, it's rather obvious. That's why I say it's a little bit embarrassing. But you kind of got to take that on the chin because this is what they're good at. And right now, straight away, you know, what. What's your turnover? What are you looking at there? And so we sort of clearly clarified some goals early. And this is a key thing. Some of the goals were focusing not just on turnover, because it's not necessarily the secret to turn over more, but for us, we needed to turn over a certain figure, and we set that goal that, you know, within 12 months, we'd like to turn over this particular figure. And also then getting a true representation on the go of how you're looking from a, you know, a profitability perspective. So we set a goal, we put wheels in motion. There was a lot of stuff happening in the background that Dennis was helping us with, you know, working on the business or the organizational culture, you know, as well, and clearly defining roles, making sure, what are our values. It's a positive workspace, you know, for people so that they. They're able to do their job. So that was all happening in the background and within a very short space of time. Time. I'm still taking a double take on these figures. But we're not just hitting that mark. We're well exceeding our expectations and our goals.

So, Phil, tell Me, how did the APB mentoring program really impact your business financially? And how did you transform the business?

Yeah, well, Dennis was able to help us first of all, get a basic understanding, break things down into simple components so that I understood what he was doing. Just some of the language, you know, work in progress at wipas. You know, I. I thought I had a grasp on that. I did. Not at all. And it just sort of broke things down first of all, and explained the general language and also specific language with finance and financial documents.

So take me through the process. So Dennis talked to you a little bit about the systems. How do you transform the business?

Yeah, so initially it was. We identified that we needed to look at a few things. Appropriate growth or expansion. We were probably not turning over enough. I say that with a lot of caution. It wasn't like this massive expansion approach because we know all know where that can end up, but a strategic approach to just understanding that for those goals that we set, these financial goals, it meant that we'd need to be running a certain number of projects at a particular value. That's helped us in different ways, also identify jobs that we would accept and not accept because, you know, we need that kind of value in there to turn over. So that was the first thing we started saying, well, look, doing one at a time, that's not going to meet it. You know, we need to put ourselves in a position with our current staff. We knew at the time we had another staff member coming on board, another carpenter. So we were able to just set a simple sort of goal, if you like, and realized that we needed to be more systematic with the, you know, our starts in our projects. With being more systematic and having a follow on with our scheduling, we were able to immediately turn over a certain value. I guess that actually kicked in straight away and started occurring. It was actually really fluid. I thought that was going to be really difficult, but it was a lot more fluid than I expected. It just. We just went straight into it. We obviously already had the work there in the background. But my usual approach of going, okay, well, I mentioned before that I've had negative experiences with too big, too quick. So I've probably got a bit of a hangover from that and not wanting to. That we were nurtured. Dennis was great in saying, hey, look, this is, this is okay. You kind of need to do this. And the results, you can't have immediate results. But, you know, let's say the first quarter, when we did reviews, we were reviewing all the way along, so it wasn't like we were guessing, but when it came in and, you know, we kicked that goal, bills were paid. That's a big one for me. I believe a lot of builders can identify with this. If you've got, you know, draws coming in and certain components of those drawers are already paid, you know, or, you know, they might be due or in, usually you're just sort of hanging it. Well, I have been hanging in there for the draw, you know, builds paid and, you know, obviously. So that's helped us do lots of things forecast there, you know, our expenditure or, you know, get our cash flow accurate. So we could say, look, we're know we've got this draw coming in. This is this. So back to the schedule. This is our schedule. This is when the money's going to fall. This is when, you know, things are going to be due and to be ahead of the game for the first time over the. Across the board is what, what I'm saying here. Not, you know, obviously up and down, but in my experience, but this is across the board being on top of it financially and having confidence to know, okay, we've got that paid, this is what we've got, you know, coming in. We know we've got these expenses in the background and we've still got money in the bank, if I'm not mistaken. You know, all things considered, that's a pretty positive position to be in. And it's been consistent from. It's almost like we just had to plug this in. I can't believe it. It's like, had I done this 20 years ago, I've actually made this comment to Dennis, damn, I wish this was compulsory. I know that may sound ridiculous, but I really believe that the benefit I've received from it and I, like I said, 20 plus years of doing this, you know, the old thing, you know, old head, young charters. Is that the same? You know, I, I think, you know, knowing what I know now, I would not have stepped forward in business without this kind of mentoring.

Well, it's interesting.

I really think it's necessary.

It's interesting because I was actually going to ask you that question had you known now what, you know, would you have change, avoided things? But you've answered that question for me. So, so look, of all the APB systems and everything that you've taken into action, you know, what is the one thing that was a game changer that set the tone for the rest of the, the year for you, you know, through the, through the programming and everything else? Because you talked a little bit about the fact that Dennis picked something up in the accounting. And that kind of was an observation. And you were like, okay, that's a start. But what was the game changer moment for you where you were like you were onto something?

Yeah, it's when those figures came back in. Like Dennis helped us. Like they don't just sort of set a goal, help you set a goal because it's, it's we that set the goal, not apb. You know, we set the goal, we wanted it to be reachable, but just slightly up there. So when we're getting the figures back in and the reviews with Dennis and we're looking at it and, and like we were getting there before he was even reviewing it. We're looking at it going, this can't be. And I'm in a position of disbelief. You know, I'm like, no, it can't be that. I don't think easy is the right word. But that simple. It can't be that simple. And look, my experience has been, you know, we were just missing that. Just a clear understanding. I think couple of little things were not we didn't know or we were doing incorrectly. But certainly it's all around the financial management. You know, for me that's a clear, you know, you can set whatever goals you want, you can talk about all sorts of things, but if the money's not right or your understanding of running a business financially isn't clear and understood, Even though I've been doing it so long, the old saying, you know, flying by the seat of your pants, you can only do that so long from my experience, before you get into trouble. Obviously I've learned enough to work just outside of that. But we was, there was so much we. The motor was just you. We're running on. It's an eight cylinder motor. We're running on four. You know, like. Yeah, it just, it just helped us. I don't know if synergies are right. We're like, just connect, connect. Probably these understandings that I had and the bits that were missing, the misunderstandings or the lack of knowledge. And it's again, it's all around that financial management and planning understanding. You know, I thought Wipa's, sorry, your work in progress. I thought that was done annually. My accountant would usually ask me, you know, can what, you know, as at 30th of June, you know, what's your work in progress? I'd have a look at invoicing in July, have a look at, you know, work we had on at the time. And Expenditure. And I'd come up with this figure and just say, well, that's our work in progress that is so far. That's only not right. And to know that that can be done consistently throughout the financial year and should be done consistently throughout the financial year is, again, a game changer because it's, it's helping you get accurate figures of where you are actually at and not just from, you know, cash flow forecast in terms of, you know, creating this balloon picture, but targeting things like, well, okay, we're going to have tax coming in, you know, and having a clear understanding of what work in progress you've got at certain times and just giving you a clearer picture so that you. Yeah, again, that's the significant thing for us is just a clearer understanding of our financial systems and changing those. But also, you know, cash flow forecasting, we're only really just getting into that. But like I said, I've obviously got some understanding of these things. So with this new knowledge or this connection that I talk about that Dennis has really helped us with, it's just making the whole motor start to function and we're not coughing and spluttering as much, that's for sure.

Well, speaking of, you know, future planning, are you. Are you in the process right now adopting new softwares, potentially focusing on new leads, or is that something that's on the horizon for you and what are you looking forward to right now? You know, taking. Taking forward.

We put the cart before the horse there a little bit in that we had the. So the software in place. So we've been using. I presume it's okay for me to mention the.

Yeah, absolutely.

We. For our estimating, we use solo assist for our quoting and estimating. And that's a program that's been put together by both a friend of mine and someone that I've worked with in the industry. So it's a builder and it's very fluid. So that, you know, in terms of getting, from a quoting point of view, I'm about to put a big one in here that Dennis helped us with in terms of using that software. I won't say I was all over it because I constantly talk to the principal of that business and he says, mate, you're running on about 17% Dive into this software and use it, you know, so which we're starting to do, you know, and use what's available to us. And also we use build a trend for our daily management, if you like, our project management, our scheduling. So we have that stuff in place. But you can appreciate my frustration. Okay. We've got this really awesome software. You know, we've been in business for some time. Something's missing. Why don't I just have this, you know, and when other people tell you about their business, you know, it's always exciting or sometimes it's, you know, always difficult. But when you get those exciting stories, you know, the grass is always greener and you're not getting the full picture necessarily. But you, you know, you do scratch your head and go, man, you know, how. How can they be there? And I'm here, you know, so just seeing that all come together. Apb, that information and that knowledge has helped, helped us tie that together. But one thing we identified early in that financial assessment, we were looking at our. Our margins. So we're again, in a custom field, if you like, custom build, builds, architectural. And I'm thinking, you know, I'm running a particular margin, and that's, you know, that's where it's at. We were way off where we needed to be. We needed to increase our margins. Because when we looked at, you know, our fixed costs and we were looking at where jobs were coming in financially, you know, money in, money out, we're able to identify fairly quickly that our margin wasn't where it needed to be. We do intend to push that up a little bit. Again, we've got that reputation. We're in that field. We don't want to ever overcharge our clients, but you need to be making money. And we identified early that there was an issue there. So we pushed it up a bit. Sort of a stage one of, of two. You know, you can't just. I don't believe you can just jump to this magical figure. We wouldn't have any work, but we certainly pushed it up. We've checked that in the industry with our, like, if you like, our. We get a constant stream of work from a particular architect. We're constantly checking those figures with them, and we're consistent. And here's the thing, we are still just below one of our biggest competitors, so we've got room to grow there and hit these targets. So that's a big one. You know, a lot of builders, like, we're all sensitive when it comes to margins. We. We want it to be right. We don't want to be doing this for free. We need to be making money. We're in business. But you. You feel like you've got this pressure that you, you cannot be above this figure, you know, whatever that is for, for each individual and the area they're in. But the truth of the matter is, with help with understanding your marketing, so your brand strategy, your marketing, all of that sort of guts of the business, if you're able to get more leads in, you're able to pick and choose, firstly, identify the client that's right for you and the job that's right for you. So you're able to pick and choose a little bit. Well, a lot more, because not. This is a thing that got me. I said, but, Dennis, you know, when I talk to someone, I win over 90% of my jobs thinking that that was a good thing. Dennis's response was not. Not less than encouraging, but pretty much, well, that's not a good thing because it can't be that everyone's right for us. So just little things like that, if you can appreciate they've only. Some have been major things, but just little things and going, you know what, I've been patting myself on the back going, you know, I'm winning all this work, but shooting us in the foot because that job was probably not profitable from the outset or, you know, potentially profitable from the outset. And I've just gone, yeah, look at me. I won this, you know, to myself, pat myself on the back. You know, I'm really good at this. Well, no, I'm not. So there's been a lot of eye openers where, you know, particularly, I. I just couldn't understand. I said, I look, look, Dennis, marketing, I've got this in the bag, you know, like, I probably don't need help with that. And he encouraged me, very softly, I guess, to look at it differently. Boy, was I wrong. I so don't have a clear understanding. I mean, just being able to delineate between a line between marketing and advertising, brand, brand strategy. And behind that, having a good look at, you know, you know, what your values are. They've also helped us put that together. And the good thing is I was able to pass that over to my son. There's no good me handing a business over to him and saying, mate, yeah, this is what we are about. I passed the buck in that sense to him and said, what are we about? What are our values? What are the key things? You know, we come up with some things, we've changed it since, so it's been an evolution. But, you know, excellence, challenging ourselves to do better, to learn, all of us, myself absolutely included, first and foremost in that learning. So under that learning, you know, mentoring. I have a mentoring role. I said before, we're committed to apprentices and Learning personally and encouraging that for everyone because, you know, you can. You can be in a job and enjoy it, but not love it, you know, but if you're learning and you're moving forward, you know, you're going to stick around, you're going to want to be a part of this, you know, so. And. And we've got a commitment, you know, this is something that Aidan worked on that was encouraged. What are the best outcomes for our clients? We want that for our clients, you know, and we want. Quality is one of those words. You know, it's a dirty word in the building industry, but I actually believe it's time to bring it back, really understand what that means. People want things to be done really well and to know that when they've got their back turned, you're going to make sure that's right. You know, it might be hidden behind a frame. Hidden is the word that's got to be eradicated. You know, it's got to be right. And also a commitment to clear communication and these relationships, you know, relationships. A key one for us, right, in that whole family business thing, if we're not about relationship, what are we doing this for? And before, like I said, not a lot of money. So. And, you know, just this openness is transparency and this frankness, you know, they're. That we've a lot like we're saying they're our values, they're things that we want to move forward. We're getting an understanding of what we look like, what our avatar is. You know, we're getting, obviously getting a bit of help around this stuff. This isn't, apparently this is common language.

Well, there's a sense of excitement that I can sense from. From, you know, how passionate you're talking about, you know, the mentoring program. There's a sense of rejuvenation from, you know, just how you expressing everything for someone. You know, for our listeners out there that aren't fortunate to have a mentor yet or are considering to jump into a mentoring program as well. What. What advice do you have for them? Because it sounds like you've gone through an entire mindset change and shift, and your values have really been articulated to have that curiosity for mentoring. What advice do you have? Someone that is considering becoming a member or also looking to work with, with one of the coaches as well.

The advice would be to different people at different stages. If you're young and in the trade, depending on what level of mentoring you choose could be viewed as an expensive process. I actually believe that that's the Wrong way of looking at it. It costs money. You know, there are people working in the behind. You know, you've got a team of people working for you in the background here. You know, someone's got to pay for that. But I'm careful to use this word, but I will use it. I think it's essential for young players that are getting into the trade. It is changing so rapidly. See, I've had a failure, a business failure historically, and that taught me that I have, first of all, a responsibility. I thought I understood that. Now I have a clear understanding. I have a responsibility to my clients. I haven't. And I absolutely have a responsibility to the people that work with me and for me in that sense. And I understand what that means now. You've got to lower the risk. We've got to mitigate, we've got to manage the risk. How can you do that when you're a new player, you're fresh. Look, we all thought back in the day, you're a good chiby. That's all you had to be. I was, as I mentioned before, I was very fortunate to get this highly skilled training, you know, very fortunate, blessed, whatever words you want to use, I can do it all. But look at it, you know, that's why I said identify how you got to here. But the secret behind all of that is you've got to understand that you've got to be transformable, you've got to be teachable from the outset. If you've got that attitude, you really can achieve anything. It's taken me 20 years, you know, I don't say this easily, you know, from the outset, knowing what I know now, this is why Aidan, my son and my daughter Jordan, who, as I mentioned before, Jordan's doing the, the book work and being trained in accounting. Aidan is being trained in managing the projects now. So project management, that's ongoing, but he is running projects with me. These guys are involved in that, that coaching. So in a sense, it's not financially coming out of their pocket, but it is in terms of their part of the business. So that I would not proceed forward for their sake. They're these young players. I would make sure. So if I'm a young player looking at getting into the building industry, find a way to afford this. You can afford the new drop saw, you can afford the new. You know, we find a way. We always do. We work hard. But I'm saying as a tool in your kit, like, it's like having a retake, a re. Look at safety. Safety is One of the tools in your toolkit. You can't operate without this tool now. You know, we used to wing it. We can't wing it. It's got to be managed. I'm saying that this mentoring is an essential tool in your toolkit, particularly if you're a young player. Yeah. If you've been. If you've been operating for a while, or like in my case, years. And it's. It's just not connecting. It's just, you know, it should be easier than this. No, it shouldn't. But it should be simpler than this and it should work, you know. Well, that just means some things. You know, you got either a misunderstanding or, you know, it's just not connecting. I use that word. And you just might need someone else to have an objective perspective outside of you, because we get quite emotionally involved. This is our baby, you know, this business. But the frustration, I can't tell you. Like, you know, I've always said to myself, the day I can actually say that I've turned a decent profit, I think I'll go sit down in the paddock with a, you know, six pack of Bud Lights. I'll do for your benefit and have a good old cry because you're emotionally attached. And we don't want that much. We just want to make sure that people are looked after. The people that work with us and that employ us and they're getting good value. But you want to. You want to turn a profit. You know, it just makes the whole thing work. And the joy that comes out of that, I can't tell you. So if you've been in the game and you're looking at mentoring as an option. For myself, it has made all the difference, but it's not. It's holistic. It's not just like, oh, we've got all the answers. They have encouraged us to look at other things. We are looking at this software that we're using and using it further and having a part of this big picture. We're getting help with marketing. APB have a lot of knowledge and stuff there, but we've got another company that's helping us there with our, you know, our brand strategy, if you like, and I'm really thankful for that. So it's a holistic approach to running a building business and understanding that there are a lot of tools available, but you have to have that basic knowledge. You have to break it down, simplify it, and then just sort of, from the building blocks, build it back up again. I think every chippy can understand that.

You talk about building a legacy with a family business, you know, and that's something that you want to leave, you know, your kids with this gift that has, you know, the legroom to grow even further. What goes into creating that legacy and at what point in your career did you decide to go down this path to create something for your kids?

Yeah, well, you know, when kids, your kids with Jules and I've got four kids, and when they go out into the world and they are setting their own careers, that's not an easy space. It's not an easy place. Nowadays, if you're building a business, you know, the kids. Because kids tend to move on from their hometown or sometimes they stay, like my son Aiden has. Well, when I say hometown, we're originally from Queensland, so our older kids have moved back there. But Jordan's still an integral part of our business. Like, we can't, we won't do business without her. She, like I said, she's dealing with the book work, she's dealing with and learning the accounting with an accountant overseeing, but taking on so much more. She's really excited about the opportunity that she has. So in other words, she's able to look at this business and say, hang on, this is as good as I want it to be. She's really getting that understanding, which is exactly what I've wanted. I don't want it to be, okay, guys, today we're gonna do this. That's all me. You know, I want them to realize the potential and the opportunity that's before them. Excuse me. From a career point of view and ongoing, a life point of view, but also on a day to day basis, these kids can set their own, like, their own goals. And nothing's more exciting than that for me now because in training, that's exactly what we want. We want to empower people to be able to do their. Do their thing and to realize that that's. Now that looks like what they ever want it to look like. So that's exciting for me. You know, before the mentoring, I would say I was exhausted. I've now actually earned back all this time. So I was running entirely inefficiently, really. That's the truth of it. But what I was doing before, let me say I can do it in a very short period of time now. But also having time to work on the business, that's giving me time to think about these things. Okay, well, you know, what is it we're handing over here, you know, for the kids, you know, is it, is it a Business that's struggling, that's got the legacy of dad not getting it together, that. That'll only hold them back. I want them to realize that, first of all, you've got to be teachable, you've got to be transformable, you've got to be able to move forward. And once they identify that in themselves, because let's face the facts, it's only an idea, you know, running a business, you know, you come up with this idea, you know, this is what you think it looks like. Well, once they get that picture in their head and what that looks like for them, the motor's already running. And if they, if you've given them this guidance, they've had this mentor in this direction, the rest is history, I reckon. So I'm really excited about that.

Yeah. And you know, the advice, I guess, for the listeners out there who are, who have potentially family members out there, it's to create a teachable mindset and allow, allow everyone from the top up. Because you talked about the fact that you had to change your values and corporate mentoring as part of, part of this as well. Right. Yeah. Let's talk about, you know, in your area and, and where you specialize in, you know, do you know, the other builders. Builders can, can sometimes live a very isolating world. So how's your relationship with other builders? How do you stack up and compare with the. With the other builders? And what do other builders say about your company today, you know?

Yeah, well, I, I do. I. I do have feelers out there. I've been doing that this long enough. You know, you've got to know where you stand with your competitors. I don't think you should worry about your competitors, but you should definitely know, first of all, be able to identify who they are. So. But you're right in saying that the builders, it's almost a, you know, a commandment building. Thou shalt not talk to each other. It's a weird thing. I had a guy finished a job one afternoon and down at the pub, which I don't do often, but let's just go with it. And all the boys are down there and he comes up to us and is this young fella in our crew that's going out to do his own thing. Then this guy staggers out of the, out of the pub full as and full as a butcher's pup. And he, he sort of staggers over there and he goes, what are you doing, young fella? He goes, I'm moving on. He goes, and what are you. I'M gonna do my own thing. And he goes, all you builders are the same. He said, you're all stupid. He says, if you just learnt to work together and to communicate together, the world would be a different place. He said, you're all reinventing the wheel. You live in a vacuum and then stag it off into his car. We wet ourselves because we don't know this bloke. But gee, he was dead right. Like, it is a, it's a funny world, you know, But I think that's changing, particularly with, you know, the access to podcast, social media, all that. Now you're able to at least learn and listen from others. But yeah, I, I do know that in, in our world, I guess we've got some really good competitors. I've been doing this, as I keep saying it for a while, I'm not going to pull the old for 45 years, you know, because that doesn't work. But long enough to know. And I've been scratching my head, how can this. Yeah, there's a young player, he's been in the game 10 years and he's leagues ahead of me in terms of the jobs, the leads. He's getting this profit, you know, figure that he clearly puts in his job. You know, he's up there, he's slight, like I said, he's slightly above us, but he's, he's all over it. And it's, again, he's one of these young fellows. I know he received mentoring from Day Dot and he's, he's also gone on, I believe, to do, you know, a business degree. Like, he's always learning moving forward and he has a very clear understanding of marketing and strategy there and he, he's, he's overtaken the industry down here and I'm scratching my head, how can he do that? He doesn't have my experience realizing that that's not everything. You've got to have a clearer understanding of how people operate when someone's looking for a job. How does my, you know, website, for example, answer some of their questions? But, but also as importantly, how does it deal with some of their fears? You know, like they don't want, you know, they're about to spend X, Y, Z, you know, like I said, we're high end, big money. They want to know they got the right team, you know, and he's able to communicate that really well. He's had mentoring, he's got it together, he knows what he's doing. And he has overtaken me. You know, I got over 20 years he's, I think 10 years if. If that in his own business, and he's, he's. He's slicing off parts of the market. You know, he's just, I'll have that. And he's got it. So I learned that. That we've got to be, you know, we've got to. I've got to learn something from that.

Yeah.

And I do know that our reputation out there, it's good. Like, we're a solid player. People know that. We're going to get the details right. That's. That's a big thing for me, but also the feedback I'm getting. So not just from that dirty word that I say, quality point of view, but also in how we operate with our staff. Because I said it can't be about relationships, and you're a mongrel to work with. I have been that person where I'm just so frustrated and upset that you project that onto other people, and that's a horrible place to be. It's everything against our values. But I've been there. I've been that person. Don't you worry. And again, you have a responsibility to get this right. Get your crap together, you know? Can I say that?

No, you can. Of course. You know, it's really inspiring because most people get threatened by competitors. The fact that you look at your competitors and find learning opportunities is pretty humbling and inspiring. Phil, I could talk to you for ages, but I'm going to. I'm going to wrap this up with a really important question. And I was going to. I was going to reverse it and say, if you had a time machine that went back in time, what would you do differently? But you've answered that. But I'm curious, You know, you said something that really stuck out to me, which is you've got some time back now. You know, spending time on. On the business. You've got, you know, the legacy planning as well. If you have a time machine and projected where you're going, and it sounds like you're really excited about the journey ahead, what does future Phil, tell you about the future? And where do you see yourself in the coming years with the game plan that you're building right now, with, you know, the kids taking on the responsibility as well, where do you see yourself in the next few years?

Well, there's a little bit of humor in this one. It has been said by my son many a time that once he takes over, I'm the first person he's gonna sack. So at least now I'm Employable.

Maybe you can be the advisor at that point. Maybe you can be the advisor.

Look, you can't replace experience. I'll tell you what, you can paint it different colors, as I said, with one of my competitors, but you can't replace it. So I think the kids are always going to draw from that. My role will probably be oversight, like overseeing, rather, in terms of, you know, when they're winning, clients and communicate. I love that part. I love talking to people clearly. And I think I'm always going to have a role. But my role as it is now, you know, in the next five years, certainly 10 at most, but we're thinking five years, I'm going to ease out of. Yeah. Wearing nine hats. I'd like to just wear one or two. And the kids are gonna, they're gonna be running this. This ship and, and having the confidence to know that they're gonna get it. They've got something to work with here. I'm not handing over a dirty motor. And, you know, it's already, it's being worked. It's, you know, it's not, it's not fully refined. It's. It's been tuned, but we're getting there. And that's given me a lot of confidence. It makes me smile thinking about the future. But I do see that the kids are going to be. I don't think my opinion. I don't think this is ever going to be a multinational mate, you know, like where we're going to stay in. In a certain. At a certain size, I guess, always having the opportunity to expand. But at least they'll be making those decisions with confidence, knowledge and the right kind of knowledge and relying on, like, being able to identify, okay, well, I don't do that. But this person can and be in a position where they can employ that person. They've got the financial base to do so. And that's another thing I've learned, you know, you've got to have the right people in the right, right roles. And. And Dennis has helped us identify all the individual roles, you know, in the company. Something I thought I had a grasp of as well, but I didn. I know it's obvious, but. But yeah. So looking to the future, yeah, the kids are going to take this thing over and I think they're going to have a wonderful business and crew of people to work with, because who wouldn't want to work for a company that's moving forward, pays well. And your personal experience while you're working for it is a positive one for your family. You know, I don't. I hate hearing people say I hate my job. You know, I'm doing this. You know, I'm just turning the wheels. That's a horrible thing. I know it's a reality, but it's a horrible thing. So I think the kids are going to have the opportunity to employ people that can benefit from that positive experience, positive work experience for their own careers. You know, as I said, learning, excellence, that commitment.

Well, Phil, it's been a pleasure jamming with you. I look forward to keep up with your progress. We usually have guests back again. I'd love to hear your journey in the future as well. And, and perhaps we'll have your son or your daughter, both of them, in the future on the episodes. But thank you so much for your time. And just the humility about the coaching mindset is just, it's really refreshing and I can sense the excitement and, and I've had Dennis on the show as well. So it's great to hear some amazing stories about you and Dennis as well.

Thanks, Bhaskar. That's great. Cheers. Thanks for the opportunity.

Absolutely, mate. Chat soon.

Okay. See you.

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