54. Transparency, Systems & Future Proofing With Andrew & Marcus

We've now got a structure that allows us to keep up with what's changing. You know what? To be successful, we've all got to pass on our experiences.

It's good to have a partnership because you can sort of remind each other to look after business and one's gone. But we never knew how to put the ideas together and make them work.

Clients hate being blindsided. So when we discovered apb, yeah, it was, it was a game changer for us. It was, I don't think you can have enough good people in the business. You know, if you're thinking about it and it's like, oh, should I, shouldn't I just do it?

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Hello and welcome to the Professional Builder Secrets podcast, a podcast by the association of Professional Builders for building company owners, general managers, VPs and emerging leaders. Here we discuss all things running a professional building company from sales, processes, financials, operations and marketing. We have another exciting episode from the Professional Builder Secrets podcast. Today. I'm joined by Marcus Elliott and Anthra Saracusa, directors from Cube Constructions. Gents, thanks for being here today.

Good morning, thanks for having us.

Good morning. Thanks for having us.

Well, tell us a little bit about your roles at Cube and what do you specialize in?

Okay, my role at Cube is I'm in sales and also business development and Marcus is in construction management and also project management as well.

And where are you guys joining us from today?

Our office in Malvern.

Awesome. Well, how did you guys get started in the industry? Was this purpose for you both or was this one of the scenarios where you accidentally stumbled upon this profession?

Well, we both had different journeys for me, yes, definitely by accident. Actually, I actually started off phone up as a computer programmer, which interesting enough, some skills are actually quite transferable, believe it or not, with the admin side of things. But yeah, I basically just hated my job. And then I had a mate of mine who was framing out in the burbs for a volume builder and just said, try it for a bit, see how you go. And I honestly just loved it and never stopped. And here I am 20 years later, still doing it. So that's kind of my story in a nutshell.

And what about you, my friend? How did you get Started into this.

I was always in a trade as well. I was a cabinet maker by. By trade in the day. So I did company making and then I got into developing as well. And that's how I came across meeting Marcus, because I had a development in northern east that linked onto Marcus and he did all the carpentry work for me there as well. And that's how we sort of started our relationship.

So, you know, obviously you've been there, Marcus, for 20 plus years. Most people are defined by two things, the successes, but more importantly, the mistakes that they make in the industry. If you look back, what was one of those moments that was a memorable mistake that you made that you'll never forget and potentially had changed the direction of how you grew your business?

I always think back. The things that always stick in my head the most are probably the ones where I misquoted things and they're the ones that keep me awake at night. I'm like, oh, how could you do that? How could you forget to put that in? They're the ones that just seem to never leave me, I think. Yeah.

Do you still have those recurring dreams at night now? Or is it better? A lot better now?

No, no, it's a lot better. I'm getting therapy now, so it's helpful.

Maybe that should be another podcast episode. Therapy for builders, I guess, or in some cases, maybe this is a therapy for builders. Well, look, I'm curious to know, you know, if you look back, a lot of builders that I talked to have really defined their values through this business and, and, you know, have what we call the non negotia. And typically that's, you know, either because you've had a really good client or you had really bad clients. If you think about, you know, the worst client you've ever had, how do you avoid getting those these days? What are the non negotiables? And any advice for the builders listening to this episode podcast as well?

It's a good question. I mean, we've had a bit of both. We've had some horrible clients and we've had some amazing clients. I think it's just one of those things after time when you meet people for the first time, the second time, the third time, you get a bit of a gauge on who they are and whether you're going to connect. And knowing those experience we had, we had one of the worst clients I think anybody could ever have. It was an absolute nightmare. I think it really shapes. It shapes you, the business, I think, really, because you're like, I just do not want to go through that again. And you really look for the flags that show up that indicate that that could be that client again. And that happens to us all the time. We go, I can feel this client being another one of those. And we will really. We've got some strategies in place now that really sort of steer away from that.

What do you look for typically? Is it the alignment and values? I guess or.

It is. It's alignment in values.

It's their.

Their motivations.

Expectations.

Yeah, expectations. There's a few things that we kind of really look for that that will indicate. And just personality sometimes too, you can just get a gauge that, you know, building for a client, it is like a. In a way, a bit of a marriage. You know, you've really got to connect with someone for quite a long time. Some of our best clients have become good friends after it. And you really do have to find that unique sort of partnership. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

And I'm assuming flexibility is really important too, from the clients too, that you need that as well in such a changing world today, right?

Absolutely, absolutely. Something you can. Something you can work with. You know, we're designing and building a house that's got so many different variables. There's someone that can actually work with you on that journey and not be so hard and fast on how they.

Want things and understands the value of their project as well, and expectations of what things cost. Because some clients want the world and obviously they don't want to pay you the world in the day. So it's sort of working that out with them as well, where their financials lie.

I guess that's such a timely topic right now because the value of goods today has changed drastically over the last few years as well. So it's not what it used to be. From what I'm hearing from the builders and the frontline people on the front lines as well, things are changing very quickly.

They are. They're changing, you know, daily sometimes. So, yeah, like making sure that those clients understand those. Those variables and what's kind of coming around the corner. In our communication with. With clients, we try and really get on the front foot with all that sort of stuff so that, you know, if there are sort of changes and. And cost increases or whatever else is coming in the corner, really get on the front foot early and communicate those things because we find it. Clients hate being blindsided.

You know, they hate it.

So if we can avoid doing that and really get on the front foot with leading the Conversation early, that blow, because it is a blow when it happens to the client, is softened because it's sort of been building for a long time.

What are you known for today? If someone had to sort of review your clients today, what would they say about Cube?

I think transparency is a huge thing. The way we set the agenda very early on in projects. For example, when we're doing a design and build basically brief and their budget really early on, knowing what they want to spend on the project, what their brief is, does that marry up to what they want to spend? And being really transparent early on with the client, letting them know, well, your budget doesn't make your brief in the day, so. Or vice versa. And work through that before you start designing. So by the time you get to the end point or, you know, hitting sites and building the project or going to contract, there's no hidden costs. It's all been discussed very early in the pace and I think transparency is a huge thing.

So tell me a little bit about the key struggles that you encountered before you joined the association of Professional Builders. And how did that story come about? How did you guys end up finding or hearing about the association of Professional Builders?

Well, yeah, that was interesting because I mean, there's been a couple years leading up to actually signing up with abb. We've been talking about it and just never did it for whatever reason. We just thought, oh no, we'll just defer it. Defer. And then Covid hit and ironically we just signed up before COVID But the timing for us was it was perfect because I mean, we had issues all over the business really from a point of view of just having lacking that structure. I think lacking that. This is how it should be in.

This part of the business.

This is how that part of the business should run financially. All those little key things that we build along the way, we needed that someone that sort of got us in that direction of how to be more process driven. You know, when this happens, you do that. So when we discovered apb, yeah, it was. It was a game changer for us. It was.

Now, was it out of necessity or need or was it nice to have at the time? Like what compelled you, I guess, to make that decision to go, guys, we really need to implement this quickly.

It was a necessity and a need on the day, both. So I think we needed to find a system that could show us how to structure the business and sort of grow with that structure. We are running in different directions.

Well, yeah, we were particularly the more jobs that we got on like for one or two jobs, you know, we probably could have handled it in that way, but when you sort of multiply it by five or six, if you haven't got all your processes in place, things get wild. That's what we were finding and that's. Yeah, that's why we need help.

Yeah, that sort of things are falling through the cracks in the day because there's only so much you can remember in your head on a day to day basis. So we really didn't have a place to go put all the data we needed and you know, all the specs of the jobs, all that sort of stuff like that. So sort of running on the fly. Definitely things, you know, when you're running on the fly, things fall through the crack.

Now you talked a little bit about, you know, financial awareness, you talked a little bit about systemization. Where did the APB membership impact you guys directly first? Like where did you see the transformation and what type of values did you have to bring into the business to prompt that change?

Yeah, well, it took a while. I probably drove it for a long time. But yeah, I mean financially, just doing the quotes properly, I mean, you know, just the education on putting in the overheads and the correct amount of overheads, the difference between margin and markup, all these things that were kind of like just an eye opener for us. We kind of knew that there was things that we needed to implement. But just getting that reinforcement like this is how you do it, it really just changed everything for us. But what we found amazing about it was that all the modules all linked together so there was such a synergy between all of them. Like it wasn't like they were independent from one another. You kind of needed all of them to make the story make sense. So from that point of view, we absolutely loved it and we, we were all in. We were all in. And, and since we've been all in it, it really has, well, it's changed our lives more than just the business because now we just mentally are able to forever minds be more present. We're at home with our families because we know that our systems and our business is in, is in good shape.

Yeah. And with the sales side of things and apb, I mean it's amazing. It's just changed my direction in sales and how the sales work and how to approach clients and their pain points. And so it's really, it's really set a really good structure for me to go out and see clients and work out what the client wants within the day and Sort of have the right questions to ask and sort of lead them in the right direction to sign them up. The pipeline, having a pipeline now and having construction slots, all these things have sort of really structured the business for us really, really.

Well, it sounds like you guys are students to the modules because everything you're talking about I've covered in an episode in the past, everything from construction slots to the pipeline and everything else. But what did you learn about yourselves through this process? Obviously, anyone that decides to invest in learning and trying new things, you're putting your ego, you're putting your pride aside and going, look, I'm going to try something new. What did you learn through this entire process about yourselves too, and each other?

I learned that, look, I was never process driven at all, to be honest. The truth is, and I'd love to work the old fashioned way with just putting everything into my head at the end of the day. And I struggled to let go of that. But thanking Marcus, that Marcus really embedded himself into this program, into the apb and he sort of pushed me and drove me through this process and sort of opened up my mind saying I need to do this because it's going to benefit not only the company, but me as well. Because I can go home and have a good night's sleep knowing that there's processes in place. So I think it sort of made me grow as a person and open up my mind to knowing that processes are important and follow your processes and also adjust your processes too. Not necessarily. Every process works to the T. You sort of got to cater the process to suit yourself as well to a certain degree and your character.

And of all the APB systems, processes or action plans, which one did you guys implement right away? That, you know, 10 basically was the biggest game changer that got you those results because there's so many different systems that you use. But which one did you find the most value? If you look back in right now, that really just changed the narrative for your business.

I would say probably the estimating one was huge for us. But I had actually work out your financials, so your overheads, your markup, all that kind of stuff was probably the most important one. But I found the ones, the little obscure ones, like how to be more efficient with your time as well, you know, those are the ones that were really nothing to do with sort of construction per se. We're really about just like management skills really were absolutely brilliant. You know, I really got a lot out of those. And having like a, almost like a matrix of how you organize your day and having those power hours, you know, where you really punch out a couple of good hours. That stuff that, you know, my wife works in the corporate world that they all do those things and we're all we have from trade. You know, I'm a carpet of my trade. This is stuff that really, we've never been taught. So to really get that intel for someone who's got a trade background, it's just gold. It's stuff that you wouldn't, you wouldn't get from anywhere else.

I think we affectionately call it the Netflix for builders as well. All the different videos and training programs that they have in the back backend as well. What software are you guys using right now? And you know, when it comes to automation, what are some of the systems that you're using today? And you talked a little bit about pipeline. I'm curious, you know, where do you put your energy to get those leads in the pipeline? What processes do you, do you put into play today?

So the software we use is buildertrend for our construction. I mean that's been on the game changer. That's huge for us. That allows everybody on the field to see exactly what they need to see. The documents are all in the folders they need when they're on the road. And for us in here, it's just great. I mean we can track the jobs to within an inch of them lives, purchase orders, finances of the job, do a full audit. Once we finish the job, how do we go? Do we win? Do we lose? Where do we lose? Why do we lose? You can really dissect each job. So for that that's been great from that point of view.

Yeah. And also with build a trend that sort of allows the client to come, come into a part of the mix because the client gets a link to the builder trend as well when the job starts. So they can see the job evolve as well through you know, the Gantt chart and communication and plan changes and you know, your fixtures are fitting. So there's a lot through the portal the client gets benefits from as well. The communication level through the portal and the client is really, really, really good.

And we're using, we use AdWords a lot. So that's where we generate a lot.

Of our work from.

And then we have a CRM system behind that. But that really works for, for our lead. So we have like lead, what are they called? Lead.

Like a lead magnet.

Lead magnet.

Lead magnets pop up on the website.

Sort of works with the same system to kind of Find, find new work. So in conjunction with architects now, now I've got a real strategy to target architects. So, you know, all these things start coming together, then your pipeline starts feeling. And that's, that's kind of where we are now, where we've got work banked up probably for, you know, two years.

I was always impressed as well. I went on your website and looked at the lead magnet, but I was really impressed with the, the branding. You know, it translated into each page, each website. The color, tonalities, the aesthetics, the images, everything was really consistent up to uniforms as well. So I was really, I was, you know, it was an end to end, seamless branding journey from start to finish. I actually spent some time reviewing that and I was like, oh, this is pretty cool. It's really cool to see the consistency show up across the different parts of the digital narrative. How are you future proofing your business now? With all the changes happening in the world and the uncertainties as well? How do you plan for the future?

Well, I mean, adjusting now obviously our pricing, we're pricing jobs for the new prices. I mean that caught it a little bit where we had contracts signed, but it was moving so fast that we couldn't sort of pass on to the client because it always on the contract. So once those jobs have filtered through, now adjusting obviously to the new pricing. But not only that, like, you know, in this uncertainty of everything, we're finding that we're needing to PC a few more things just to have a bit more certainty that we've got that, I suppose, support from the client that, you know, we don't know where this could land because things are changing so quickly. So that's probably been one way that we've proved ourselves.

Yeah, PCs and PSS, but also in the strategy with a client is not only you know, giving them a price for the PC or the ps, it's about getting it quoted properly and then literally being transparent with them and showing them the quote, for example for the trust is saying, this is the trust quote we've got. We're going to PS or PC the trusses because it is moving in price but sort of being transparent with them as well. So they feel comfortable that it is a, it is quoted properly and it is a PC that's legit at the end of the day.

Sounds like the word transparency keeps coming up in a lot of your responses as well, which seems to be a really big part of your journey. From what I can read here, do you feel like you've hit the point now where you're spending time on the business as opposed to in the business for you, Marcus, obviously, Andrew, you've got a whole different world as well. But when it comes to the processes, do you feel like it's a lot easier to manage the business today?

Oh, there's no doubt it is. You know, and now even with the. There's a meeting module actually what sort of meetings to have in app, and even that that helps because, I mean, we're working on the business with everybody. Everybody's got their own intel on how they can. What their experience is like, you know. And our foreman daily comes in and says, I need this, I need that. And that's great because I mean, his role is crucial, so we can actually then support him and change things to suit what he's needing. So we're constantly evolving. Well, it's a moving target. Like, there's always things that pop up. But we've now got a structure that allows us to keep up with what's changing. And from that point of view, it's been amazing.

Let's talk a little bit about the perception around the builders as well, because obviously back in the day, builders used to live what they call an isolating world. And if you haven't been to an APB event, you probably isolated because the APB events are known to bring builders together and talk about the shared experiences as well. I've got a two pronged question here. One is, how do you feel you compare or stack up against the builders in your area? And more importantly, what do you think the other builders are talking. Are saying about your building company today?

It's a hard question. Answer. What are they saying about us? Not sure what they're really saying about us. But I think that if I had to sort of guess, I'd say, okay, where we specialize in a certain field of the. Of the construction, which we do a lot of extension renovations. We've got a competitor that we sort of. I wouldn't call them a competitor, but someone in the area that does similar work to us, which is Sherbrooke Homes. But I don't see them as a competitor. I see them as an inspiration because they've been around a lot longer than what we have, probably 30 years before what we have. And we sort of always at the start had a look at what they're doing and what their business model is. And I know with the APB as well, so we met them at a APB meet dinner. I think people think we're doing great things in the industry?

Yeah, it's a good question, actually, because I think that we've all got such different experiences, not only in construction but in life, you know, and we've all had different journeys along the way. And there is the old school model that, you know, I'm a builder, I'm not going to share my experiences. You need to learn that yourself. You know, I'm not going to pass that down. I want to pass that on to you. You know, you're a competitor. But I think now we've evolved to the point where we're all. We understand that, you know what, to be successful, we've all got to pass on our experiences because I view the world differently to Andrew, Andrew views the world differently to you. And that that view. We all have different angles on how we, how we tackle one isolated problem. We would have three different approaches. So to get all those approaches on and have a network of builders that you can lean on, say, well, how would you tackle that? You know, you have such a better way of getting to the outcome in a much more effective way because you've got input from everybody. And I think moving forward, it's a great way to do it because it just makes sense.

Right?

Yeah. I mean, it's a shared perspective. So I mean, there's a strength in numbers with that too. Right. You know, before I get into the advice section, because obviously you earned the right to give advice now because you've been in the industry for that long as well. I'm just curious, you know, what are your thoughts around the shortage of skilled trade workers right now in Australia as well? What are you guys trying to do to sustain this business long term as well? You know, do you guys feel the shortages where you're at and how do you address this?

We do, we definitely do. I mean, I've even gone back on the tools a couple days a week just to help out the moment because.

Wow.

Yeah, we do. We've got so much work on, which is a great thing, don't get me wrong. But actually getting through it all has been a challenge. So, yeah, I think to future what we do is we create a culture where we don't want people to leave. And so far I think it's pretty good because the boys tend to really enjoy where they work. So give them enough support to feel like they've got our backing and then let them. Let them go. So that's one thing that we do. But for finding people, I think it's just like finding good people. We find people through schools through pre apprenticeship programs, trying to just find as many good people as we can. Really, I don't think you can have enough good people in your business. You know, if we find someone that we think's got a good personality, good character, good values that align with us, we will generally find a role for them and just keep them here, you.

Know, so I just build a good culture in the company where people do talk about you in the industry and they want to come and work for you. That's probably a great thing. If you can build that culture and people start talking about it, they'll say, we want to go work for these guys.

When you talk about balance, both of you said that you guys now have the ability to leave work at work and go home to your lives. What does balance look like and what do you guys do when you're not having fun at work?

Well, I mean, I play a lot of golf. I'll just come back from a golf tour actually. So that's my kind of release golf and just, you know, spend time with, you know, young families. So yeah, just spending time with the kids, you know, and just, yeah, the ability just to be, you know, in the moment and present, I mean, that's huge. You can be there with the kids but still have your mind on, you know, 100 things to do with the business. But just to be able to disconnect from that and be in the moment, I think it's probably one of the biggest things we've got at akb, to be honest. Like, that's been, you know, just for our families and our own sanity, that's been a, you know, a complete game changer.

Yeah, you do. You need to have your breaks. And you know, Mark's had a golfing break last week for a couple days, which refreshed him. He doesn't know about this yet, but in two weeks I'm going away Sydney for two days. So just, just a bit of a break here and there sort of breaks it up a little bit. And like having a partner at the end of the day, you know, when he goes away, I don't really want to bother him because he's having a rest and sort of it's good to have a partnership because you can sort of rely on each other to look after business when one's gone in the day. So that's true.

Yeah. But the ability to have everything sort of, you know, process driven allows us to go away because when we go away, we know that everybody is aware of what they're supposed to be Doing so we can go away and know that when we come back, you know, the joint's not going to be a rabble.

So when you go away too, like, to be honest with you, it doesn't really shut down anyway. So you're always getting phone calls. Like, yesterday I was home, I was crooked yesterday. And even being at home, I think I was on the phone about 20, 25 times throughout the day. So it's not like you had that chance to sort of put your head down and have a sleep. As soon as you sort of dozed off a bit, the phone went off. It never shuts down completely. But it does help to have a partner and have the structure in place.

It's funny, I had a builder the other day I was interviewing and yeah, the phone just kept ringing. It was one of those things where it doesn't turn off. Right. What advice would you give other builders considering joining the apb, either membership or mentoring program, and what did they need to do to become successful? Looking back at your journey as well, you know, what are some of those attributes that are really important today for them?

Well, the one advice I would give is just do it. You know what I mean? If you're thinking about it and it's like, oh, should I should know? Just do it. Like it's only a small investment from view, but the value you get back, it's honestly changed our business, you know, upside down, really. I cannot express how much has changed our business. So just do it would be the first thing. And we were lucky in Covid times where we had some time to actually just bang, just jump into it, which we did. But I think going if I was to do it again and I didn't have that time would just be consistent and just chip away at it. You know, I think just to dedicate, whether it be one hour, two hour a week, but just block out some time and just keep working on it weekly, I think would be the advice I'd give.

Now, I usually like to throw our curveball question at the end of these interviews. I could talk to you guys for hours. But my question to you both is, if you had a time machine went back in time, what advice would you give a younger version of yourself in this space? And we'll start with Andrew. You know your thoughts. If you go back in time, what would you do different?

What I would do different is probably get more educated in the sense if we jumped into the company, we both were in the trades, we really never ran a construction company at all in the Start. We did work well on site together. We always communicated well. But I think it was getting more educated based on different elements of the business. If it was sales, if it's being a construction manager, just getting more education on how to structure things and getting more intel would have been great stuff, bringing on the right people on board. Earlier on, you know, even trying to, you know, just sourcing out the right people and having the right intel. I think we sort of ran on the fly a little bit, thinking that we sort of create it as going along, which we did. But obviously, you know, sometimes you will spin. You think you're getting it right or we had these great ideas, but we never knew how to put the ideas together and make them work. That's what we struggled always.

And that's what I'd be very helpful.

And that's what I'm saying. So we had all the great ideas. We just didn't know what to do with them. They came along, here we go. Well, now we can sort of implement them. There's a strategy.

I think for me, it'd be going back. I think I'd tell myself, just be open to hearing different ideas. You know, I think you just get so railroaded with one way when you first start because you're just like, yeah, I know what I need to do. But I think now, going back, I'd just say just open up your mind to different ideas. I think would be the thing I'd say to myself. And absorb as much information as you can.

Yeah, put your hand up. Put your hand up. When you can't do it, you know, admit it, I need help with this. That's probably a big thing.

I'm going to make a prediction. That vulnerability is going to be the future. Love language for. For all builders out there. But gents, I appreciate the time, the energy and inspiration. You guys are doing well and I look forward to keeping up with these stories in the future as well.

Okay, thanks, Bosco.

Thank you. Thank you. Cheers.

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