57. Who Should You Hire Next With Jacob Oelofse

A lot of guys need to move to that growth mindset. They need to have a shift in it. There's a big shortage at the moment globally of good, highly skilled people. Hire slow and fire fast. Don't go and overthink things. The simpler this process is, the better for your business. They don't actually say, okay, what do I need to delegate? What can I automate? What can I delete? If I added that fixed expense, what change would that have on that specific contract I'm going to sign? Be honest with yourself. A lot of builders, they, they almost feel scared to put up their hand and say, listen, I can't do everything anymore.

This is Professional Builder Secrets, the number one podcast to help you grow your building company safely and securely, brought to you by the association of Professional Builders. Join us every week as we talk to industry experts and your fellow professional builders on everything you to know to generate more leads, more sales and higher margins while improving the building experience for your clients. Hello and welcome to the Professional Builder Secrets podcast, a podcast by the association of Professional Builders for building company owners, general managers, VPs and emerging leaders. Here we discuss all things running a professional building company from sales processes, financials, operations and marketing. We have another exciting episode from the Professional Builder Secrets podcast. I'm joined today by Jacob Alefsi, executive business coach for the association of Professional Builders. Jacob, lovely to have you back again. How have you been?

Good, thanks, Bosco. We were chatting before we hit the record button. It was nice hearing your voice and your face this time. So it's always good to be back here.

Yeah, it's been a hot minute since you've been here before. I mean, we had a great chat the first time. But I'm really excited to talk to you a little bit about the hiring process and what to hire next and who to hire next and doing it properly, I guess. But. But why is making the right hire so crucial today for builders?

I think it comes down to almost a mindset aspect to it, especially when you're looking at the building industry. A lot of guys need to move to that, that growth mindset. They need to have a shift in it. And I think why it's important to make that decision and why it's so crucial to make the right hire is it takes a long time. There's a lot of preparation behind the scenes to make the right hire physically takes a long time. It's not like 20, 30 years ago where you just go to the street and say, I want to go on this. There's five People available. And we also know, I think we'll probably touch on this a bit later as well. There's a big shortage at the moment globally of good, highly skilled people. And we're not talking only on site. Not carpenters, builders, roofers. It's in the office. People want different things from a builder, from a company. So it's very important. I think the impact that it has on a building company is far greater than most builders think it has. So very, very crucial. I think it's important for guys to make the right decision and do it. Almost hire slow and fire fast, but obviously firing somebody, there's things with that as well involved. But I think that principle is important. Hire slow, but fire fast.

And it also, I mean, if you have the right hire, you don't have to fire anyone at that point too, right? So it saves. Someone actually said to me, it actually costs so much to hire someone, you might as well do it well as well. I want you to sort of open up the curtains here because our builders love to hear what are some of the common obstacles, barriers and experiences from other builders as well. So, you know, with the builders that you're coaching and mentoring today, what are some of the struggles around hiring the right person? What are they going through currently in the market?

I think the one I touched on it a little bit is just the scarcity of good people at the moment. And that's, that's an obvious one. We can always see in general all building the struggle, finding good quality people, but I think it's also the slim pickings part of it. So when they do have a list of candidates, they only have two or three to choose from. It's not 10 candidates to choose from. But I also think the desperation comes in is there's a massive growth, especially with Australia, New Zealand builders, but it's globally, everybody's still spending money on residential properties, whether it's at innovation, whether it's a new build. And the problem that they have is they become desperate. So the struggle that they have is this, I need people, so I become desperate to hire and then I short circuit the process. That's a big struggle at the moment for them is they know that they need to follow some process which obviously at the APB we provide them with the training, but they so desperate to make a hire because there's this new contract that's been signed. They short circuit that process that results in poor hiring, hiring too fast, hiring the wrong person. And the other struggles I think is letting go a lot of builders struggle to let, let go of certain roles in the business. They always like to say I'm wearing five caps. And some of the builders, I call them on it, they almost seem proud to say I'm wearing three or four or five caps. And I said, but that's not healthy physically, mentally, but it's also not good for the business. You know, I get what you're saying, you're a talented person, but it's not a good thing in the long term.

How do you work out who you should hire next? You know, what goes into that? Planning, I guess so that's a good.

One because I think a lot of guys wing this process. They just wing it and say, let's just decide, okay, I'm going to hire this person because I think I need them. At the apb, we actually turn this around and we offer most of our builders a five hour plus session where it's a business planning workshop. We touch on all the elements. But HR hiring, the process of HR management, the budget behind it, we actually go quite deep into this. So it depends from business to business, but that's one of the elements we touch on. And I think that's important because the, the process of going through that workshop actually opens up your mind to realize, wait a minute, just like I plan to sign a new client or build a house or renovate a property, I have to plan for hiring my next hire. So I can't just wing it and do it. There's a planning process and obviously there's a lot of things behind the scenes, budget for it, when do I hire them? All those type of things come into that conversation. But I think for us it's about planning for it. You have to look into the future and say, where are we taking this business? Are we growing? Are we trying to be stable? What's the thinking behind the scenes? And then plan for that picture that you've got in your mind. So that's, that's the key thing you've.

Talked a little bit about, you know, business owners needing to let go and being on top of the business rather than being in the business. That takes a lot of trust and delegation and hiring people, obviously. So let's talk about how can hiring impact a residential business owner in a positive way? Where do you normally see the impact? Is it financially and in the books? Where does that help?

Typically, I think it has a massive impact across the whole business. But the biggest thing is for the owner of the company, and I want to use this word, freedom, it gives them the freedom but not what people think. To take the surfboard and go for a surf every day, that's, that's a good freedom to have as well. But it's about actually now having freedom in your mind to apply thinking to the business, to analyze your business. Because if you're fighting fires every day, running from site to site, organizing everything, doing everything, when you actually have a good team and you're hiring the right people, it gives you that freedom to actually focus on the big picture. Because a lot of guys forget that when I ask them this question. As a building company owner, I'm saying, what would you do if I gave you 10 hours this week as part of your working hours? What would you do it if you had 10 extra hours? Most of them don't know what to do with it. The other ones say, now I'll go and play golf, I'll go surfing, or I'll go fishing or whatever their hobby is, or I'll spend more time with my family. Great things, good answers. It's almost like a textbook answer. But in reality you need to take that time to apply to thinking and planning the future of the business. And that's the benefit there is that freedom. I'm talking about you need to have the freedom to work, to work on the business. That's the biggest thing that I picked up. A lot of guys see this impact that they have when it's a positive hire. The site supervisor doing the job, the competence on key, the admins in the office, the estimator, they're doing what they've been hired to do. And following a process, it gives them that freedom.

Let's talk about the journey of the interview process. Obviously that's so crucial when you're making the right hire. And typically the two areas that make that first impression would be the interview process and potentially a reference check. What should building owners today look for in an interview? Either the right things or the red flags. And what are the things that you want to look for in a reference check as well?

That's a good question because a lot of, like I said earlier, a lot of guys rush this process. They talk to somebody that talks the talk. They sound great and they look great and they sound very experienced. And then three months into the hire, wait a minute, this guy can't even do half the things he was talking about in the interview. And that comes obviously to the reference check, which I'll come to in a minute. But I think the important thing is the little non verbal cues you pick up during your interview process. And that's why we've got a process we follow with all our APB members. We take them through what to do when hiring a new staff member on site or in the office, the interview sequence, the advert sequence, how you advertise for the role, how they respond to it. Every piece of that process is planned out with an intent. And if it's somebody that needs to be attentive to detail the interview, the advert, the job description will be lined up to pick up. If they're actually somebody that pays attention to detail, for example, and we've picked up there that in the action plan or the training done after the APB members have watched it, they come back to us and say they've never realized that it's actually a formal process that takes place. It's not just putting this advert up on some job site and then interviewing a couple of people. Because the follow through when it comes to the reference check is a lot of guys don't even do the reference check. They just, they are so overly sold by the candidate, they feel now they trust this guy or this woman that's going to hire, they don't have to do a reference check. And we need to be conscious here. Across the globe different rules apply in different countries. Where some countries you're not allowed to give a negative review as the employer of that person because then you're restricting them from getting new work. So you need to be very creative in the questions as the builder owner or the building company owner. When you ask these reference checks questions, because you hear sky mentions in one of the trainings where if you interview or call three people as a reference check and they all sound very robotic and very the same, they've been scripted, they've been asked by the candidate to give those answers. But there's a nice way to go around it where you actually have to be very, very strategic in the question you ask and also the follow up question on the answer so that you can pick up, do they even know that, hey, this John I'm talking about is actually the John that they've got in mind. It's not John number seven, you know, it's the actual person you're talking about. But I think it comes down to we've picked up a lot of builders when they come into the APB program and they start with the trainings that they don't do reference check, they don't see it as important sometimes because they're so desperate they just want to hire the person they don't realize spending that 20 minutes on a phone call can save you 200 hours of nightmare afterwards. So it's very, very important to follow a strategic process when hiring any new candidate. Whether it's the admin support, the laborer, right up to a GM in your company, there needs to be a formal process you follow.

It's interesting when you talk about making quick decisions or hasty decisions when you're desperate, that can actually end up hurting the business even more. You talked about, you know, doing a five hour workshop. You talked about, you know, alluded to strategy and planning. Do you need a strategy for recruiting? And how far out should building owners be planning for? Is it, you know, just the next 12 months? Should they have a game plan that's 3 to 5 or 10 year roadmaps? What does that look like for you?

Most definitely, I think when it comes to strategic planning with all the elements, it needs to be three years and beyond at least. I mean that's for a lot of building owners. It's quite difficult three years from now. I don't even know what I would look like in three years from now. So at least if you can have an average three to five years, that's ideal. Beyond that would be exceptional. But at least if you can do like a three year plan, what would the business look like in three years? What would the team need to look like? Because what is a disconnect that I pick up is when we do the business planning workshop with the builders is they don't see the connection between the disciplines. They don't realize that when I put a sales target or I put a revenue target, or I put a net profit target, it's directly linked to my marketing, to my sales, to my construction site. But they always leave out the HR element. They almost forget that, oh, wait a minute, if I want to make $10 million of revenue in the next three years, my team is going to probably have to double or triple. And they never think, wait a minute, if that's going to be the case, when do I need to start planning to make those hires? The strategic part of the planning process, crucial. Two to three years, ideally more actually. So that's very, very crucial. And it's the most definite have to do.

So would that mean that the business owner would need an organization chart or sort of a mapping to identify where to fill things up?

Yes, most definitely. And I think a lot of builders misinterpret this. They either don't know what an organizational chart is and there's nothing bad about it. I ask a lot of builders in a one on one session, do you know what's an organizational chart or org chart? And then they, when it's one on one, they admit, they say, I've got no idea what you're talking about. The ones that do know a little bit, oh, I've heard this somewhere on an APB podcast or I've read this in a book or something like that. Then I say, what is an organizational chart? No, no, it's this little picture with little bubbles with people's names in it. And that's about the extent that it goes to. And actually it's, it's much more powerful than that. So an org chart is a definite must. It's an element of the business that you actually need to revisit on a regular basis as part of your quarterly strategic planning, your annual strategic planning. It needs to be part of that process. No exceptions. It's very, very important. But you need to understand the principle. The principle is to have the view on that little bubbles that they mentioned. Usually it's this bubble format on. You get many softwares that do it for you. But I think it's what's happening behind the bubble. There's a name or a position, but what's coming behind it. And I think a lot of guys don't realize to just draw a few names on a chart or on a piece of paper. That does not mean you have an organizational chart. It goes a lot deeper than just this one page picture. That gives you a visual perspective of the business as it is now versus two years from now. It's a lot deeper than that.

So with the organization chart, just to follow up on that, should business owners or building owners, I guess building company owners look at also putting roles that they want to fill or is the gap or would they just put the people's names of the people that currently work in the company?

No, definitely. I think you touched there on something important. When they develop the organizational chart, you want the now picture. So first start, okay, this is what it's looking like now. But take away the names. Do not put the company or the employee names next to it. You say there is a CEO, there's a general manager, there's a sales manager, there's a sales assistant, there's three carpenters. So put the positions down and then you go and put the names next to it for the now picture. Then you're going to realize, wait a minute, poor Sarah is everywhere in the office, or Bosco is everywhere on site. He's Doing everything. That's when you go to the next level and say, okay, so in the future we need to take some things away from certain people, which creates a new position. There's definitely the then and now picture. We need to go forward to that now that like, again, like I said, I've got some builders I work with that this is planned out for the next three years. And then we actually plan for that process to fill those positions over the next three years. It's a rollover. Once you reach the one year, you actually plan the next three years. So it's always pushing it the next three years.

So can you break down the process or exercise of figuring out how to hire next? You know, what goes into this? I guess that's really an important part of this conversation, I guess.

Yeah. So I think it touches a little bit on the, on the previous question. I, I've worked this out and working with APB members and, and my experience in working with company owners and specifically builders is you have to reverse engineer. The process is just like building a house. And I love this because it's the best analogy. There needs to be a plan drawn up first of this is what the house should look like after the project is finished. There might be alterations along the way, there might be variations throughout the process, but the initial plan is it's a four bedroom, two bathroom with a study and the games room and whatever else is in the house. The same for your organizational chart and your team that you're trying to build. You have to go to the future and then reverse engineer this back and look at it budget wise, time wise, skill level wise. If you're hiring a site supervisor, for example, it's a very high skill, somebody that's qualified, that's going to cost the company a lot more. And then we go into that process of saying, okay, so in five years time, I'm going to need two site supervisors. But when do I hire the first site supervisor and when do I hire the second one and reverse engineer that process? And as we walk through that step by step, you actually start to realize in the current market, if I put out an advert, it takes me about four months to actually make the hire. Then we can reverse engineer that timeline and actually put it as a visual for the building company owner to realize, if I need a site supervisor or a person by December or by January next year, I actually need to advertise in June this year already to get that process going.

So do you hire for business needs or do you hire for potential Growth. I've always struggled with this because when is the right time to make that move?

That's a tough one. You're putting me under the bus here because that's always the question. I get which one do I need to hire? I need an admin person, but I want a site supervisor.

I've been hanging out with too many builders. Jacob, I apologize.

No, no, that's good, that's good. But it's a good question. And I think it comes down to the planning part we spoke about earlier is we encourage and we motivate as a minimum to aim for a 10% net profit in any building company. That's what the retained profit should be in the business. Now that gives you power if you've got that in the position. Let's choose a scenario of a builder that they're making good 10 net profit year on year. There's retained profits. That company most likely 100%, 150%. They are growth mindset. They want to grow the business. They can afford to hire somebody two or three months before they actually need them. Now that's a key question. How do I know I need them in three months time? That is coming back to that business planning workshop. If I'm aiming to go from five projects to 10 projects next year, I'm selling those business slots or those construction slots for the new builds. So in reality, it means I know I'll need a supervisor by March next year to start helping with three new projects starting off because it's going to be three more than we used to handle. Okay, so I've got a due date and now I reverse engineer that back to it and say, okay, now that's a growth mindset. But now the other 50% of builders, they don't have cash reserves. They don't know where to start. So they need an admin person or they need a estimated in the business. And that's where we go. And ask two questions before I go and hire this. Am I following that dad principle? Can I delete that task? Can I automate it or can I delegate it? And when you really dissect this, most of them can be either deleted and automated before you have to delegate to a staff member. And a lot of guys jump immediately to delegate. Oh, I need to delegate my admin process or my marketing process. But you can automate that with the software for 200 bucks a month. Don't need 20,000 bucks for that specific activity. But they don't go through that exercise. They don't actually say, okay, what do I need to delegate? What can I automate? What can I delete? So it's very important. And the sequence of that is also important. You first see is this important or not important? And then I delete it and then go to automation and then go to delegate. So it's very, very important, depending where you are. But that's the two major groups I've dealt with in the past.

You talked a little bit about net profit. I'm assuming the budget indicates when is the trigger point to hire someone. So what do you look for in a budget to say, hey, now's the right time to make that decision?

And that's again, that's a good follow up on our previous question because it's a difficult question to determine the answer for, because when we look at it, it should be part of your organizational chart planning process to say, wait a minute, if we're planning to hire somebody in the next 12 to 18 months, how much cash reserves should I have versus how much cash do I have on hand? And it might even trigger some sales changes. It might have to go into that process as a building company to say, we will not have that cash available unless we sell two additional jobs. So this determining your budget is the easy starting is what is the current market paying for that position? And be realistic on it. If the current admin support person is $65,000 a year, you need to figure out currently, do you have the correct margins in place to cover that fixed expense? And that is part of the business planning workshop is what is your fixed expenses, what is involved in it, who's in that, what is on the list of fixed expenses. And then we start adjusting every new project that we will actually sign on as a contract to say, let's incorporate that as if we've already hired that admin person. Is that going to be possible? Just as a bit of a what if scenario? If I added that fixed expense, what change would that have on that specific contract I'm going to sign? Because remember, it's not that one project that will carry that fixed expense. You're going to split that over all projects. And a lot of guys forget that. He's like, no, I'll just add that 65 to one job. No, you're going to, you're going to add it proportionately. So the budget question, it is an activity you need to plan for. You can't just swipe your credit card to hire somebody and hope they'll make you money. That's not going to work. You need to Plan this as part of your business planning, but also strategically to say, what do I need to do to get to that point? A lot of guys are earning $200,000 a year, and they're not willing to sacrifice that. Where I've worked with other builders that say, you know what, I can sacrifice 50,000 this year to at least get the business going with it. So it's a difficult question to answer, but the budgeting part is a planned activity you need to plan for when, how, and how much money do I need based on current market conditions?

What tips would you recommend to builders out there that, you know, APB members use to make this process of hiring, you know, the person a bit easier, I guess, you know, and. And you're around people in the membership, people that you're mentoring and coaching. What are some of. Some of the trends and tips that you're seeing out there right now?

So the first thing that I would pick up is be honest. Be honest with yourself. A lot of builders, they almost feel scared to put up their hand and say, listen, I can't do everything anymore. So that's the first thing, is be honest with yourself and, and just say, okay, I need to hire somebody. That's the first step. Then the process will start. You need to go through the trainings and the action plans to get all the. The basics in place. And that's what I picked up. We spoke about it a bit earlier. Doing a reference check, that's a basic thing that should be done. And a lot of tips and tricks. We can go into very detail, but do the basics first. A lot of guys skip that step and they want to make this whole process very complicated. In our training that we offer our members, we actually talk about gamifying the hiring process. We need to remember that when you follow these steps that we guide you on, I can give you super duper tips to follow and all these things. But if you don't do the basics, it doesn't mean anything. But there's one or two things we need to focus on here. Let's talk about this gamifying. If it's not fun for you as the builder doing this process, imagine what the candidate feels like. So think about that. And I mean, gamify, it's not a fun process. It's not. We're not playing a football game here. It's about make this an interesting journey for the candidate and for you. And I've gone through this at many levels with some of our builders. I've gone through it myself. Where I've been part of this process. When you go and do the specific steps as part of the hiring process, you actually feel like you're already part of the business when that candidate comes into it. And that's the tip I want to give to builders here, is don't make this a corporate process. You're hiring somebody that's going to be in their face. Probably you're a small team, you're not going to be one of 500 people. People that's not who you're going to deal with. So you want to first of all make sure that the process is fun, but it follows the basic principles. Follow that bouncing ball. You have to do the basic things right, but it needs to be planned, it needs to be scripted, it needs to be part of your company manual. So it's literally a flick of a switch. We can hire a new carpenter, a flick of a switch, we can hire an admin support. So that's my tip, is keep it simple, keep it basic and then add the bells and the whistles when it comes later. Just do the basics right and make sure that the process is fun for both parties concerned, the company and the person hiring that you're actually coming into the business.

Should you be hiring for full capacity as well? I've always wondered, do you want the new person to be really busy? Do you leave room for growth? How does that work typically when it comes to a capacity perspective, I think.

We live in a very interesting time at the moment. There's a lot of highly skilled people that have moved away from the old way of working 40 hours a week. It's about productivity. If I can get a person to do something in 25 hours, why do I need them there every day? It's about structuring that position and I think it's a valid question. A lot of guys, especially when it comes to the office side of things, they feel the person needs to be there Monday to Friday. And I've seen magic happen with remote workers working 12 hours, 18 hours and they get a lot more done than a full time person sitting there in the office and think of the resource savings that you're doing there. So definitely when you plan this out, I would link it to, okay, but the tasks that I'm giving them is a 20 hour job per week. So you don't have to, you can always give them the option to say it might become more. But there's so many people at the moment looking just for 25 hours or part time work, work from home, stay at Home mom that's highly skilled that she does not want to go back to the corporate life. She enjoys her kids, she wants to work for four hours every day and she's super talented. I've actually worked through two or three builders where we hired somebody like that. And they can't believe how productive and efficient they are and they pay them well. Don't get me wrong, don't think you 25 hours is going to cost you cheap. It's a good investment, but you get what you pay for. So definitely I would not link it to. It has to be full time. It's about output, it's about what you can get out from them at good value.

It's interesting you talk about the 9 to 5 and the concepts of it. As you know, I've done a TED talk and one of my future plans is to do another one around the future of work. And I've been doing some, some research around this and it's interesting because the concept of nine to five was invented in the 1800 era, during the manufacturing era. So obviously, you know, times are changing and obviously it took some global events for us to realize that how we work now needs to be a lot more smarter. So I smiled internally when you said that. So if we're talking about, you know, the future of work and we're talking about working smarter, does that mean we need to change what a job description looks like? Is a job description relevant today?

I think a job description description is still valid, but it's the way you approach it that has changed. A lot of guys look at it from, it's a list of items almost like a menu, and you tick all the boxes and that's your job description done and dusted. But from a candidate's point of view, you need to almost entice them, you need to almost make them want to taste this business and say, wait a minute. The way that these guys have structured this job description for me, it almost feels like I want to work. Now that's, that's difficult to get somebody to say I want to work because most people these days, they want a quick win and not work. They want to get paid a lot of money. But this job description needs to also sell the position. And it's a lot more than just what you offer them as a salary, what's the tasks involved. But the job description should actually educate them on what could be done when they come into the role. But you also need to put a few crumbs down to say this is an evolving position. We want you to grow in this position. You're not going to be stagnant. And so it's not just that old style copy paste, put it in some other builder and copy their job advert. You need to be very creative, but it's still valid. I would not go off it. It's just the approach that you take on how you develop it that's important.

Are there any tools or processes that APB recommends or the associate professional builders recommend to builders out there to determine their next hire?

Look, we touched on a couple already. I think it's the planning workshop that's quite important. So that's the process of planning and we actually provide them with a workbook to do that in the org chart. Organizational chart is a very highly underestimated tool because you can make that very powerful with a lot of apps. And I mean I've done magic with Google Docs in the past and Google Sheets where it works the magic. We've actually got a org chart builder that we use inside the APB where it's one of the trainings. There's a download, you can develop who you want to hire, plan it out and then literally copy it over and it gives you that visual picture. But then the next level is actually now building the job description, the hiring process, everything behind it. So, so the tool we use with that, with that organizational chart planner, it's so basic and simple. But it's almost like this light bulb moment that a builder has. Like I should have done this 20 years ago. You know, it's just because you're giving them the tool that they can just input is important. But there's another thing that's also important here is we need to remember that the tools that we use to plan the hiring of people will always be linked to the other discipline. What's your sales target? What's your revenue target? And there's an inter, like a little dotted line between those two activities. So they shouldn't forget it's not a process or a tool in isolation. You always need to bring that as part of the business. But I also think when we look at the tools we want to use here, it's don't go and overthink things. The simpler this process is, the better for your business. If you overthink it, then you want to go and spend hundreds of dollars a month on some other platform or some other thing that looks all flashy, but it doesn't do what it's supposed to do. And I think the last thing that's Also important is although this comes after the hire, there's important is a training or onboarding plan that is almost like you merge that as part of the hiring process and a lot of guys forget that. Even if you're on the onboarding, that's still the point where you or the new candidate can call it quits. I mean there's a probation period. There's all these things that come into play. So that's part of the hiring process is, is the onboarding. Onboarding tool download that we give them in in the trainings as well.

What's the one thing that builders underestimate when in determining the hire, you know, to hire the next two new team member. What do they take for granted?

Sometimes I think there's a couple of things, but I'll talk about two and I think the one is the process involved. I think a lot of guys underestimate that there's a step by step recipe to follow. They it's not just like I said 20, 30 years ago, put up your hand, I'm looking for somebody. It is a, a process that you have to be, that has to be implemented. That's important. The one thing, and I think the second one is the time it takes. A lot of guys underestimate that. Yes, the physical putting out the ad until I hire the person might be three months, six weeks, six months in some areas. But the time it takes to prepare for that process, there's a lot of things behind it. A calendar blocking. So as the owner of the company, you're probably going to do the interviews. So the time you need to block in your calendar for doing interviews and reference checks and you cannot delegate some of those things to your assistant in the office or to your chippy on site. That's not their role. It's your role as the owner. So I think a lot of guys underestimate the time involved in doing it. And then I always get asked the question, but I don't have time, so where am I going to get time to hire somebody to make more time? Then it's like this conundrum of I need more time. So I'm hiring people to make more time, but I don't have time to interview them. It just means for that next couple of weeks your days are going to be longer. And a lot of guys underestimate that you're actually going to work more in probably the next six months to work less after that. So it's just, it's also that acknowledgement of it is going to take time but do not skip any step in that process. And a lot of guys underestimate the smaller things, the non verbal cues. The fact that you said the closing time is at 2 o' clock and the guy tries to squeeze it in half past two. You need to be disciplined enough to say but my cutoff time was 2 o' clock. And if he's half past two, he's probably not the best candidate. He's going to do that on the job as well. So you need to be strict with yourself as well.

You talk about short term pain for long term gain I guess is the way that they say it. Okay, well look, I could talk to you for hours on this topic, but my final question for you is around the current trends. Obviously it's no secret that there are labor hire shortages everywhere around the world. Speaking to past builders from different parts here, this is something that's been brought up on a lot of different interviews. What should a building company do to think outside the box or to get creative? Or is there an unorthodox approach to addressing this labor hire shortage?

I think the one thing we touched on it a little bit is that gamifying process. It should be a fun and interactive process but still be professional in it. So that's the one element we touched on that I won't go deep into that. But I think it's also important when the current trends that you pick up in your area might be different to another area. So do the research, make sure that you know in your area what is the actual data. Don't assume that a guy 500 kilometers from you or 500 miles depending on where you are in the world that is going to affect your business. And I've seen this a lot. A lot of guys are actually moving states because they they tired of the hustle and bustle, they want to go to a different state. So widen your net. That's the one thing that I've seen a lot of guys don't do is they just advertise locally. Widen that need nationally. You never know what guy or what woman is looking to relocate. Make a new start to their life. That's a key thing there. But also I think we need to also realize that it's not about the money anymore. A lot of guys still hire. Oh, if I give them the top end of the bracket at the moment, that people pay, I'll get the best person. Not necessarily. I know a lot of graduates that have got four months experience that are the manager of a company that cannot manage. It's sad, but that's how we become. So I think it's also important the offer we make. So in that final part of this hiring process, remember, it's not just about the money. The age groups have changed, the times have changed. We as a office support person, as a supervisor, my motivation will be money to a certain extent. But if you tell me, don't worry, every second week you take half the Friday off paid, that might be a massive attraction for me as a site supervisor because I've got two young children. So it's very, very important. I think we need to move away from. It's just about the money side of it. It's about my lifestyle as well as an employee in your company. And then I think the most important one is future growth. A lot of guys want to see that. When I join this company, if I stay with them for two, three, four, five years, I could end up as a site supervisor. If I'm a carpenter, if I'm a site supervisor, I could end up as being the GM in five to ten years from now. There's a path for me to grow in this business and I think the most important one is we should not try and limit the growth of any candidate. If they with you, get the best from them, give the best to them, even if they leave, that's the probably one of the best things you can. And a lot of builders don't agree with me on this. If they leave your company and you've trained them and you've educated them and they start their own building company. No. But now spend all that time and money and effort on them. That says actually a lot more about you. It says you're actually very good at what you do. You train people well. Yes. You might now think you've created a competition, but you've actually created another professional builder. So. And if you look at it from that point of view, it's okay because for three, four years you've got a very highly skilled person that probably trained other highly skilled people in your company. It's an approach that you need to look at it from a building company. Don't look at the short term. Always plan longer than three years. Then the magic starts to happen.

Every interview I've had with you, I've always thrown you a curveball question. So I'm going to end with a curveball question. I remember the last one had to do with the book you were reading, I'm fairly certain. But I'm curious, curious to know what is the one most important question an owner should ask someone in the hiring process. You know, I usually ask people what their purpose in life is because it tells me a little bit about who they are. But in today's world, and from all the coaching sessions and mentoring sessions you've had, what's a really good question to ask? And we'll end that interview with this question in mind.

Okay, so the very last question that the builder needs to ask these candidates sitting there. Okay, that's, that is a curveball question because there's so many positions. But I think it's important, especially with the past two, three years, that everybody's experienced. I think a good question would be to make it a non business question. And the question I would ask if I was a building company owner is why would you stay in this industry if you know what's currently happening in the industry? And there's no right or wrong answer there because it's their perspective. Because a lot of people see the building industry as, oh, it's a horrible place to be and it's always stressful, which we agree. We know there's a lot of builders going through tough and difficult times House. But imagine the answer you'll get from a site supervisor or a carbon who says, I'm super passionate about carpentry and I love creating things and to be part of this bigger thing. That's a good answer. But if somebody says, nah, the money's good, I mean, immediately the culture foot would not be there because they'll reveal something that they would do unexpectedly, just like what you've done with me now. It's like a curveball question. But if you ask them, why the building industry, why would you stay even if you know what's happening? I would love to hear some of those real life answers from candidates if I was a builder.

Well, in respect to the fact that you call this gamification, I'm going to say, thanks for playing with me today, Jacob. It's been great. Totally enjoyed having you on the call today as well and look forward to having you again in the future.

No, thanks a lot, Moscow. I always enjoy our sessions and to all the builders out there, keep at it. We know you're doing good work, so all the best.

Cheers, man.

Cheers.

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