62. Relocating A Building Company With Max Peterson

A lot of us guys, we hang our identity on what it is, that which we do. I was in a position where I had to find my purpose wasn't possible for me to learn everything I needed to know by myself. You've then got to adapt. You've got to start taking on all of the things that are happening in this new ecosystem, this new culture, and only then can you begin to excel. The more you learn, the more you earn. Dream big, start small, systemize the shit out of everything. Research financial principles and management, and understand business development. This is Professional Builder Secrets, the number.

One podcast to help you grow your building company safely and securely. Brought to you by the association of Professional Builders.

Join us every week as we talk.

To industry experts and your fellow professional builders on everything you need to know to generate more leads, more sales and higher margins while improving the building experience for your clients. We have another exciting episode from the Professional Builder Secrets podcast. Joining us today is Max Peterson, CEO and Managing Partner for Smiths and Sons in Canada. Max, how are you doing?

G', day, Bosco. From one Canadian to another, kind of.

I know, I know. They got all the Canadians running these podcasts. Tell us a little bit about your origin story, my man. And how did you get. How did you get started in the. In the building industry?

Yeah, look, I guess I got started in the building industry because my old man said, you're not smart enough to do grade 12 and I'm sick of paying private education fees so you can go and learn a trade. So I actually did that and sort of, you know, spent about 15 years as a, as a, as a carpenter, did an apprenticeship in Brisbane there, and then got a builder's license. And so that was all pretty cool. Married a Canadian in 95, had six kids. And then in 2010, her old man was my drywall and my gyprocker. And he decided that because my wife was born in the town I'm living in here in British Columbia, and he come to me one day and decided he's going to ruin my life. And he said, I'm going to move back to Canada to retire. And so, you know, the mother daughter thing was pretty tight. So after three years of arguing and making her cry, I gave up and here we are. So that's how I got into the industry and that's how I ended up in Canada.

Well, that's kind of ironic because I was locked in Australia for a few years. I just got back to Canada a while back, too. Came down in the fall and it was beautiful weather. The day I left, it just started to rain in Vancouver. Sounds like that's the norm for Vancouver weather.

Yeah.

So what's the type of building company you currently have with the relocation? Like, how have you reinvented yourself? I guess here.

Yeah, Well, I guess I had moved fairly quickly. We talked about moving to Canada, and I woke up one morning in July and it was a Saturday morning, and I got to a point where I thought my youngest is about to finish elementary school or primary school. And. And I kind of felt I was in a moment there where I kind of had to get things turning if I was going to get her into high school, either in Australia or Canada. And we made that, you know, by the time we closed down businesses and we jettisoned a bunch of assets, it was. I think it was about seven months. And I was sitting here in Canada, and of course, I didn't really put together the permanent residency application or even a work visa. So I was semi retired for about 22, 24, 26 months. And so for me, I mean, I had all that time, I guess, to start to think about. After spending 25 years in the building industry in southeast Queensland, I had to figure out, well, what am I going to do? And so I had a lot of time. It was funny because I think I'd spent that much time working and being so busy. And then I got off the boat, metaphorically speaking, in Vancouver, and everything just come to a grinding stop and I had nothing to do, nobody to talk to, effectively, no business, no nothing. And so what it did was, it was a lot of soul searching. I often say that was probably one of the darkest times of my life because a lot of us guys, we hang our identity on what it is, that which we do. And so it was a moment in time where I. I actually had. Everyone was happy. The wife was happy, the kids see snow for the first time. You know, everything's. You know, everything's humming along. But I was in a position where I had to find my purpose because effectively it had been taken away from me. And I think there might have been a lot of reservation, which is why I argued with it for three years and made her cry and stuff. But then to get here and really sort of dig down, of course I started to look around. I go, what are my options? And one of those options was the contact that I had, you know, in Smith and Sons back home. And so, you know, we made that contact and sort of the rest is history. So. But there was a lot of waiting still to be done because, you know, I couldn't work until I got my permanent residency sorted out, which literally took that, you know, two years. And dealing with Canadian immigration, bless their bloody hearts, unbelievably painful. If I run my business the way that immigration runs their business, I would be out of business. Just saying.

Well, as an old saying, right, an idle mind is a, is a devil's workshop. So I guess you really had to get in touch with who you were at that point. I relate. When I first moved to Australia, it took me a while before I got back into the workforce. And like you, I had to really find myself in many ways. Tell me a little bit about, you know, when you look back at your illustrious career, what do you think was one of those challenges that you've encountered when you first got in the building spaces and how did you overcome it, you know, when you look back at everything you've done?

Well, I think like I said, having spent 15 years as a carpenter, you know, a lot of the motivation for me to go and get a builder's license, what I was just tired. I was tired of limitation and I was tired of having those limitations, but I was tired of dealing with people like supervisors. I just had a gut feel, very entrepreneurial by nature, and I felt I needed to have a crack. So really, in the early days running a carpentry type operation, it was fairly straightforward. You know, what I, what I realized, matter of fact, what I did is, and this will resonate with some of your Eastern Seaboard builders in your, in your audience, is that I actually approached G.J. gardner out of the blue because I had got my builder's license in I think, mid year or May, June, sorry, May 20th. Geez, mate. May 2009. And what I did is I thought, you know what, I'm really good. And this is why I look back and I think what I'm doing today, I'm very much in line with what, you know, what my purpose is. Because even back then I thought to myself, you know, I'm really good at knocking nails into wood. But really. And I don't mind talking to people, but beyond that, I really don't know a lot about running a large building company. And large for me at that point would have been a million dollars a year. And so what I did is I went and, you know, I went and reached out and really above my pay grade for me to go and talk to a mob called GJ Gardner Homes. It was just out of control. It was just never going to happen. So me highlighting within my understanding that I was very good at framing or finishing or all that sort of carpentry oriented stuff. Running a business and being a car, being a builder or general contract. It was so off the radar and I needed to have that input. So I ended up being a franchise operator with Smith and Sons. And soon after that, once I finished my tenure after leaving that group, I got in touch with Russ from APB and sort of. So now I guess I've known Russ for easy 10 years. Years at some level. So yeah, but definitely some of the issues was just that it was just knowing. I think there's a level of self awareness, like a variable of success for us builders and general contractors is our level of self awareness. It is also our work ethic, it's also our creativity. But at that point I think what set me up was good foundation stone was I understood how much I didn't know. And so I think was at that point that I don't even. God knows how I found Russ. I couldn't tell you, maybe he can. But at that point it was super important for me to start to look at how I was going to get CRMs, how I was going to do estimating. I just left the franchise part of my life and I'm like, okay, so there was all of these things that were set up for me there. Now I'm out by myself because I've chosen to go that way. How am I going to do that? And so however I come across Russ, everything that he said just made sense to me and it really has stuck with me for the longest time. It was, you know, it was a great moment in time for me. So just lack of, you know, understanding of how to run a building company, that would be my biggest vulnerability at that point. And I think builders have that to this day.

And this is when Russ was part of the co construct offering, I guess in Australia as well. When you met him.

Yeah, because that was. Yeah, we utilized that. We talked to Russ about, you know, my own little website. They're about getting a source code, you know, where we could have a little video play and talk about co construct and things like that. Interestingly enough, you can't go and get a co construct subscription anymore or it's got to be build a trend. But nonetheless, you know, that was where, you know, for me I think a challenge was to develop at pace and know that it wasn't possible for me to learn everything I needed to know by myself. And so there was this kind of. And I already had a fairly Good understanding of team mentoring and coaching. Having had a little bit of a background in network marketing, some of your audience may not have no clue what that is. But a big company in the us, starting with a big A, you know, I'd been involved there, so I was already reading books and educating myself around self development. So I thought, well, that's a business principle. It's a business fundamental that affects the human in a positive way. No matter, doesn't matter what industry you're doing. Right. So yeah, it's super exciting to jam with Russ in those early days and you know, having had a co construct sort of foray was good.

So you're in your groove and then you have to, you know, sort of move out of love and family and everything else. What's that like to like go, hey, I've got to shut down and now go hang out with the Canucks in a different country. What was that? What was going through your mindset and was it easy for your family as well? Were they excited? Were you sort of torn? What was your mindset going through it all?

Well, I think the emotional gymnastics that happens is because you're very much committed to the happiness and well being of your wife and family. I mean, that's first and foremost. But the contradictory nature of the human race is that. But I'm playing Australian Rules football with the club that I've been playing with since I was 8 years old. I'm racing go karts at Ipswich Raceway. I'm doing all of these things and it's like I'm 42 years of age and I'm looking for my midlife crisis and now I've got to go and move countries and restart in a new culture. And honestly, I kept saying to the missus, I'm like, we don't need to do this. We're set up quite well. Life is good. And of course, being in the building industry Since I was 16, at 42 years of age and I had a wealth of contacts, like I had a really good established kind of routine and operation. And so, yeah, it scared the shit out of me. There's no question at 42, that's not what you don't, you know, I got a wife and six kids, which I'm dragging. And so it's like, geez, I've got to go and do all this all over again. So, you know, what was going through my mind is, you know, the fear of the unknown for sure. And even though the Canadian culture, as you know, and the Aussie culture, there's Definitely significant differences, but, you know, it's a pretty good overlap. If you're going to do it, do Canada, do A to Canada or vice versa, it's pretty close.

That's true. That's right. I mean, the only thing about adjusting to the culture is the accents. For me, I find that the Aussie accents shorten everything. It took me a while to figure out what Macca's was. And for you, you have. You're the foreigner in Canada that has an accent too. When you get there, how did you transition to the culture?

Well, he's what I to. Yeah, because there's this thing. For me to succeed, I had to do this. I knew that I was going to immerse myself in the new culture. And this is the same in business. When folks get into apb, this is essentially what you got to do. You got to immerse yourself in the program. You've then got to adapt. You've got to start taking on all of the things that are happening in this new ecosystem, this new culture, and only then can you begin to excel. And so for me, coming into a new culture, I effectively, I had to start talking a little bit slower and rounding words off and not say, I'm, I'm going down the bottle o and I'm going to stop at the servo to put some petrol in. Because everyone's like, what are you talking about?

So tell me a little bit about the opportunity with Smithson Sons. How did that come about? It sounds like you had all these connections as well and you leveraged your relationships as well to get there.

Yeah, sure. Like, you know, I think in 2012, I actually. Because Smith and Sons and G.J. gardner Homes, sort of brother brand, sister brands or whatever. And so I had, I think we flew out to LA and we met Greg Gardner. He was stationed in Los Angele at that time. And we flew up to Vancouver and we kicked some tires back in 2012 whilst I was still with the Smith and Sons group in Australia. And then of course, you know, after things transpired and of course, I went about business on my own. And then I decided to make a move here. I just made a call back, had a really good. A really strong relationship with the guys in corporate office in Brisbane. And so I, you know, the fact that we had kicked the can off of it, you know, kick the can down the road, essentially, I just approached him and I fully didn't expect too much. But then they said, yeah, we're still keen to do it. And, you know, I think I sent Them an email and literally got overnight, we were on a Skype call and we proceeded. That was late 2015. And then by 2016 or Christmas, you know, we'd had. We put it together as far as what our direction was going to be. And then. Yeah, then you want to start talking about kicking on in a new. In an industry, in a new location. Yeah, that's what I can start talking about. Doesn't matter what you're doing, whether you're running a building company or you're a franchise brand like Smith and Sons. What I didn't have is what was its distinct disadvant was that in Australia, New Zealand, you know, the Smith and Sons brand, because of its affiliation with GJ Gardner Homes, it's more straightforward. I think it's a little bit simpler. Whereas in Canada, it was like Smith and what? Who. You manufacture guns? No, mate, wrong brand, like. And so, you know, I think a lot of that was. I had to make it work, Bosco, because I could go and build houses. That was. No, but I was sort of, you know, I was old, you know, I was 42, 43 years of age. And I'm like, okay, I was really excited about the opportunity. And then you fast forward and we've, you know, we've got a few guys in the Smithies group here and a lot around establishing building companies and launching a franchise brand has got. There's a lot of. It's just because it scares the shit out of you. Like, I just. I think I mentioned to you offline there that we had one of our guys who was in the Okanagan Valley who relocated to Victoria to the island. And when Russ hit me up, I mean, that, that guy situation come to mind immediately because he didn't have a really significant network. So I think you've got to have a really deep down conviction that when you do make the move, I'm going to burn the boats. And essentially when I moved to Canada and, you know, we may cover this off later, but once I made that decision after three years, there was no. There was no going back. I'm going to get to that beach and I'm going to torch the boats because I don't have a backup plan. There is no real estate left for me. There is no business. You know, there's nothing because I needed to literally have a single focus on developing my business. And so, you know, there's a lot. We get caught up in the Hollywood side of it or, you know, the way that we'd like it to be. And Then all of a sudden we get kicked in the ass. And all of a sudden it's not. Well, now that tends to test our personal resolve. So, you know, it's. Yeah, I think it's a combination of the human systems, of course, and we'll get talking about that maybe later. But, yeah, you as a person have got to. You've got to have the resilience to be able to weather those storms.

It sounds like your survival instincts also came out now. Okay, you're in Canada, you've taken this time, you know, you get your residency, you're ready to get cracking. What's that like now, Going, okay, I've got a clean slate. Here's my time, here's my moment to shine. You're trying to build a reputation for yourself in a new country. Now. What are you going through at that point? And what was that like, the level.

Of disrespect for a professional, journeyman, carpenter, qualified builder? Absolutely infuriated me. Nobody took me serious. And so I walk, you know, today. Can you see that chip on my shoulder there, Bosco?

Just a little bit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had family. I had family that would tell me that franchising won't work in the construction industry in Canada. Bless those souls. But I tell you what, they're on the top of my hit list. So, yeah, look, there was this mixed emotion, and you're right, there is a survival instinct. I definitely run to a fight. It's part of my entrepreneurial DNA. My personality is, I guess, is very intense, is very aggressive. However, I would refer to myself as an introvert, which people will just go, you're full of bullshit. Because ultimately, I recharge very well by myself. Like, I love sipping a whiskey and watching a documentary of World War II. That's what I find to recharge me. So it was intense. The disrespect was outstanding. Now, they build houses differently in this country because it's like they dig big holes under their house, Bosco. And they call them basements that can fill full of water, which is bloody hilarious. But it's like we've got to create that area where we can bring services in. So I had no knowledge on how to build that, so I had to go and work for a guy to just kind of get an understanding from, you know, from a structural position, from a carpenter's position. So I think, you know, when we talk about those emotions that run through, I think there's got to have ego and humility have got to be in equal measures because If I let my ego get in the way. Matter of fact, when I first started, I remember the realtor because we had to rent a house. You know, when we got started, the realtor knew that I had some skills and I actually did some work on the rental property, you know, that we did. You know, I did some drywall repairs and paint and refloring. And he's like, you're all right. I could probably keep you busy. And I remember, I remember installing a dishwasher for $20 an hour. As a 25 year construction veteran, I am eating dog food right now because I'm like, ok, I'm happy to live under the radar. Everyone thinks I'm just a crazy immigrant, but I will have my day in the sun. But I had to. That commitment to evolving and adapting and excelling, I had to be patient because there's only so much I can do, even as intense as what I was to make it happen. And that's to me. Is that the six inches between your ears? That's where the warfare happens a lot.

Did you have a lot of Tim Hortons coffee in the morning during those days?

To this day, I can literally count the amount of coffees I've had on my two hands. I just don't drink coffee, mate. I am a. I'm a monster or Red Bull. That is my liquid happiness. Doesn't matter what time of the year, that's my go to. So I like the donuts, but, yeah.

No, I made a stop. I do miss the Tim bits and the steep tease from Tim Hortons, but.

All right, you're a veteran.

I am a veteran, yes. Yeah, yeah. Especially in the cold. So you get started, you're growing the business. How do you take Smiths and Sons in Canada to where it is today? You know, obviously you transformed it and you're at a really different place now. What was the key transformative point for you?

I will say this, that it's funny, you know, it's very polarizing. My story with Smith and Sons back in the day, back in Australia, because it was a great opportunity and I really enjoyed my time there. But what I did is there was a lot of things which because of that experience and then because of the opportunity that I had or have with Smith and Sons, I was able to bring about a lot of change. I've got some great business partners, one of which is Greg Gardner himself, the CEO, in position there with Smith and Sons, Australia, New Zealand. They really gave, they believed a lot in me. You know, they gave me a lot of creative license. But it was interesting that, you know, the things that had really upset me as a operator gave me empathy when I started to launch the business here. And it was just, you just couldn't predict that course of events or the level of understanding. And so to be able to develop the business, we took a lot of what happened in the business back in sort of, you know, let's say around the 201012 market. And when I launched the business here, there was some things that I did mention to the guys. I said, we ain't doing this and we ain't doing that and we're gonna do this and we're gonna do that. And, you know, I think that's the evolution part of business. And kudos to those guys for giving me a little bit of creative license and putting up with a bit of my, you know, intense bullshit. But, you know, it's definitely, I think what it is, a lot of it is empathy. Bosco. I had to. I gotta empathize, you know, with myself. But then I've got to think about how can I bring value, how can I demonstrate value and bring authentic value to general contractors in this neck of the woods being Canada? And it's very. The fundamentals and the value system that I've got on my conference room wall is the same ones that I would use in retail. I just think for builders, we have to think outside the box. We've got to move from the attitude that says me to we. You know, we've got to understand that we, one of us can't be as smart as all of us. And the collaborative nature of what I'm doing in Smith and Sons in Canada, in conjunction with head office in Australia, in conjunction with the five staff that I have in the office, in conjunction with new franchise general contractors or builders that come in, mate, it's such a big talent pool that I just think that that's really what builders need and that's what APB offers as well. That's, you know, the reason I sit here today has a lot to do with the mindset change that I probably did pick up from Russ Stephens at apb. There's no question we've had conversation and email trails backwards and forwards back in the early days when I hit the ground here originally. And I just absolutely believe in raising the bar in the building industry across the board. Re engineering the experience for clients. Yes. Delivering construction services at the higher level. Yes. But also with not taking away from the builders, you know, we need to increase the professionalism. We need to Understand that communication at a highest level is important because it has a knock on effect in the way we, you know, in how we demonstrate value to our clients and how we deal with our clients. And so I think what it comes down to is a different, it's a different way that we look about, look at how do we develop a building company as such.

I really resonate with the creating value because you could go to any part of the world and create value. So I really, I think, think for me that really hit home because I take a lot of my journey and go where I am today is about creating value for the people I want to authentic value. Authentic value, Authentic value.

Not just superficial bullshit. I'm going to do this so I get what I want. Not that. Give, give, give, give.

So what are your plans for the future? I guess now, you know, you look back now and go, wow, I've come quite a long way and you've had all this change. I'm assuming you're adjusting to the cold weather, but what's the plan for the future?

I'm not adjusting to the cold weather. Let's just get. I go from home to a warm truck, to a warm truck, to a warm office to a warm truck, to maybe the pub and then home. So I don't do snow, I don't do cold. I'm not adapting. That's one thing I'm not going to excel in. But I think the future is we're a fledgling company. Even though, you know, Smith and Sons has been around for 14 years, this year what we've got is a very different business model. And a lot of that's to do with our experience. A lot of that's to do with me as the pioneer in that regard. I absolutely believe in re engineering the client experience. But really to enable that to happen as a preface to that, we've actually got to reset the thought process of builders. We don't have that sense of entitlement where clients should just pay me because I'm a really good carpenter. You know, we've got to change those little mindsets and just start to rethink, you know, how it is that we go about improving ourselves. And so all of that education, you know, we talk about mindset marketing and management and mentoring and then of course business mastery. You know, as general contractors, I think we undercook the fact that I did a four year apprenticeship and then, you know, straight away I was making a little bit of money because I was an apprentice. I just think the ongoing improvement, it's not proclaimed in amongst the industry. And if it is, it's very, very minor. And yet, you know, when I'm talking to, you know, as we, you know, I'll go into a TikTok live here and answer some questions. But I get a lot of young general contractors, or they're 25, going, I want to be a gangster general contractor. And this is what I say to them. I'll say, kiddo, you've got to dream big, start small, systemize the shit out of everything, Research financial principles and management and understand business development and how that works in conjunction with human resource. And so all of these things, though a lot of that, most of that was never really said to me as an apprentice carpenter. And so I think the future of Smith and Sons in Canada and the U.S. is going to be, I mean, it's a massive climb to the top. There's no question, higher the levels, bigger the devils. And the challenge, you know, is the weight is on my shoulders because we are dealing with a lot of general contractors and we've joined forces with general contractors and we've got to have a very clear vision and we've got to maintain our course no matter what happens in the political landscape, you know, in the financial landscape and everything around. But yeah, I think we want to be, you know, we want to be a strong brand that's recognized across Canada, maybe across North America as a brand that does. When you think renovations like hamburgers, you think of a brand, right? That's my little esoteric goal that I'll quietly share with you, Bosco.

So you alluded to the importance of systemization, and it sounds like you're the student of the game when it comes to using systems. How do builders benefit from really mastering systems? And why is it so important?

Today we talk about that businesses are run by really good systems, but then you've got to have the ability to recruit good talent. You've got to be a good talent scout. So you have to be able to systemize. And I think a lot of that starts and, you know, it starts in the early days by way of really developing technique first and then speed over time. Once you've spent some time in the seat, that's where you can then start develop some pretty serious momentum. And so rather than sort of get bogged down in the micro and you know, what we use for estimating and things like that, which I'm always happy to go to because we get asked all the time, but I think it's the mindset around the power of Developing a system or tapping into a system. And that could be as much as a training system like apb. You know, getting into those systems, which. It's really like, you undo one box and you look inside that box and then there's, you know, it's. It's Pandora's boxes, like, okay, what else is in here? And I think the more you learn, the more you earn. And, you know, I think that's. I've had to revisit that kind of mindset because, remember, I didn't graduate. I got out of school in grade 11. I don't have the credentials nor the experience to have CEO on my business card. It's quite remarkable. But what I've done is, you know, I'm part of a international coaching system in the States. You know, a guy by the name of John Maxwell. I've invested there because I am a coach, I am a mentor. So I've got to get coaching systems clear in my mind and understand what's important, you know, to my operators. Then you've got to understand the system of recruiting good talent. There again, there's. It's like I'm saying, right, you need good humans to run good systems. You need to be good talent scout. Okay, so what's the system for recruitment? What, what, what is the system for managing human resources, you know, in perpetuity? And so when you say to me, you know, what. What systems are important? I'm like, all of them.

All of them.

You just like, I don't know, like. And so this is why. It's just something. It's not something you can go to a weekend seminar and go, right, I'm a gangster builder. Like, I'm a ninja, general contractor, dude. It's just technology changes so fast. Society changes. Therefore, mindsets change. And you need to be understanding of, you know, how to handle things. Like, the classic is the millennials. You know, it's like, no, like, it's not the millennials. It's just a different place in time. And so we've got to adapt. We've got to make sure that we understand, and then we've got to systemize to be able to fulfill whatever it is that we're trying to. Whatever we're trying to sort out.

How's the market doing in Canada right now, Max, when it comes to the building side of things?

Yeah, it's pretty lit up. I think we're really fortunate. I mean, you're familiar with the lay of the land from the island, right? You know, from Vancouver island through Lower Mainland B.C. up into the Okanagan Valley. I mean, it's a very sought after place to live. So, you know, having the majority of my operators in that stretch, in that location or in those locations, there's great opportunity there. There's a lot of wealth in amongst it. So I mean, what we love about renovations and remodeling is that, and I would say this with cautious optimism, but it's probably an industry that is relatively recession proof. Perhaps I might be going out on a limb, I might get bashed on social for that. But nonetheless, it's an environment that if you do it right, I mean, there's a lot of guys doing renovations who are going to struggle because of their lack of systems in the business. Right. Whereas we're at the other end of the scale. And you know, it's been fairly. Look, it's challenging to develop a franchise brand like Smithies in Canada. But my background where I never did any cost plus, you know, having fixed price contracts was immediately my point of separation. It was by far by measurable advantage. Now what I had to do was I had to just convince or show value to general contractors because they could not fathom the fact that the markup percentage that we apply as a minimum was almost double. It was over double what they would conventionally do because they were brought up in an ecosystem that just did cost plus for 15 or 20% as a management fee. And I'm like, guys, you just got to demonstrate value, authentic value, and look at the right type of client and you'll actually have a better business that makes more money. You know, it's not rocket science, but you know that. So the building industry is good, but it's, you know, not only is it good and there's a lot of guys who are obviously making a few dollars doing cost plus for me to push a franchise brand and introduce a different system of, you know, a way of doing business. Yeah, I've had my hands full. Yeah, I've gone home at night going, I think I should just go build houses myself because sometimes it's, it's quite, it's quite. What do they say? Heavy hangs the head of the one that wears the crown. Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's a favorite of mine. It's on my dashboard, actually. Yeah.

Are the challenges different in Canada in comparison to, you know, Australia and Brisbane? I guess for builders, other than the weather, I guess. What do you think are the more common challenges?

Yeah, I think the biggest challenge, I mean, I was only chatting to a guy out of Edmonton Yesterday about franchise and he said to me he'd been in it for 15 years and he's still trying to work out what an appropriate profit margin might be. And I'm like, oh my word, it doesn't. And you know what? I'm sure that is not just the Canadian thing. I am pretty confident from my background and my exposure to the building market in Brisbane. We don't know. And I speak from personal experience. You go into an apprenticeship, nobody shares with you the intricate nature and how to be successful more often than not, because they actually don't know and they're not very good teachers when it comes to biz dev or financial management systems. And so there's this constant, like it's the same old, same old. It's like Groundhog Day. The next generation of carpenters come out, they go and get a builder's license, so they go and do their course at master builders like I did. And now I've got a license to go from, you know, doing small carpentry projects to million dollar projects. And yet we don't have any business dev experience, we don't have any financial management understanding. I mean, it's dangerous, it's brutal. So look, there is in that regard, the challenge here and there is to understand that your knowledge and experience is worth something. So you should be getting paid to deliver a proposal to clients. You should not be getting dragged around by your nose and quoting for free. That's horseshit. That doesn't happen on our watch. And of course you've got to understand that your business needs a minimum amount just to keep the lights on. And then you've got to understand how your fixed expenses really impact your amount of billables per month to ensure that you maintain profitability. So it's the same diseases here as what's there, Bosco. That's what I would say.

What do you miss about the roots of carpentry building? Obviously you're playing a bigger game now, but if you look back down memory lane, what's the one thing that you still miss?

Mate, I think it's wishful thinking. I mean, obviously I romanticize, but I am 49 and I'm not sure that I could spend week after week knocking frames up and pulling floor joists and laying floor and frames and trusses and stuff like that. So look, I think what I do miss, and what is a distinct difference between what I do today and what I did back then and what I do miss about that is that at the end of the day you can walk away and look over your shoulder and. And to this day I can drive around when I drag my kids back to, back to Brisbane, I'm like, yep, I built that and I built that. And that's the one where you were standing on the roof trusses. And that is something. Again, it's my, it's that my, it's what I identify with. So, yeah, I do miss the practical nature because it's where I started. And then when I go home from the office here of a nighttime, I ain't got shit to look at. Like it's other than the investment now that we're making in people. And so, yeah, I do have to transition from that romantic kind of, you know, look that I take when I think about my construction background. And now I'm investing in legacy over currency, although currency's right in there behind. But yeah, I definitely do miss the hands on. And occasionally I'll pull the tools out at home and, you know, tell the kids how good I am.

So you, you chose true north and obviously now you're expand, expanding into the U.S. do you ever see yourself ever coming back to Australia or do you feel like.

No, it's. Look, I tell you what's worked out. And the reason I think it made it a little bit easier to do that, Bosco, is because we do, you know, I do have business partners that are located, you know, in Brisbane in the southeast corner. And so prior to Covid, I was back there, I was probably on a plane two and three times a year, so which is all it needed for me to catch up. And of course, my folks live about 15 minutes from Smith and Sons head office on the Sunshine Coast. So I was, it was just ticking boxes. It was great. So, you know, I initially made the decision that once I do this, and I mean it cost me a small fortune to make the move. There's no way I'm doing this twice. They'll bury me in the great white North. There's no question.

Well, listen, if you were to go back to running a building company again and look back at your days and everything else, and not just running, but just doing what you're doing and everything else, what would you do differently? Is there any path or choice that you'd make different?

Looking back now at the same time, give or take maybe a few years before I got in as an apprentice carpenter, I did pick a, pick the guitar up. And I often say, you know, I play in a few blues jams and I've meddled with a few cover bands and Stuff like that. And I play lead guitar and I often think back, I'm like, if I didn't get that apprenticeship, I could have been rocking it out with colchizzle or friggin like something in, you know, I think maybe I would have had enough talent to do it, but, but I was caught up in the emotion of making money. And you know, honestly I didn't have the academic chops to do anything else or I didn't have the belief in myself because the education system didn't really cater for guys that would prefer to look out the window or, you know, go and do something more hands on. And so, yeah, there's, there's, you know, I think there was a lot I would do differently in my journey as a construction operative. I think if I was talking to myself around the time I got my builder's license, I would be saying, mate, you need to double down. Understanding biz dev fundamentals. And you've got to look into financial management at the highest level because if you don't, you will die, your business will, you know. So no, I wouldn't change anything. I mean, you've heard a lot of people probably say that, but yeah, rock and roll. I really could have dug to sort of get into the music scene, but I do see a lot of people here in this town and you know, they're like, I want to, to be a full time musician, you know, and they're living in the back of their car and shit. So, you know, there's a part of me that you wouldn't go back and have another crack at it, but at.

Least you're rocking the haircut for Rockstar. So that, that, that works in your favor, my man. I'm sure it gives, I'm sure it gives a little bit of Australia away when you, when people see you too, right?

Well, you know, what do they say? Business at the front, party at the back. And that is absolutely why we do it. It's so when I get on your podcast and I can look down the camera, you can't really see the fluff. But then when I get on, when I get on stage, yeah, man, we just sport the mullet for sure.

Well, listen, it's been great talking to you, my man. I'm gonna wrap this up with one final question. You talked a lot about. Yeah, one final question, and it's about purpose. You know, you talked about finding your purpose, you talked about reinventing your purpose, you talked about having new purpose. My final question for you is, what do you think your purpose Is today.

Helping general contractors succeed like that, eh? Yeah, mate. It just doesn't, you know, and don't get me wrong, it is not all blue skies and lollipops like I've alluded to already. There's some days, but I think because I have the luxury of, you know, associating or have people that are in my sphere of influence or network or whatever that are very wealthy and, you know, some of the guys that I respect the most are the guys that are fairly down to earth. And so, you know, like I said, it's legacy over currency, you know, in this day and age. And I'm fortunate enough to live in this era, and I would love to be a fly on the wall when my great, great grandkids can go and check out old man Max flapping his gums on the podcast or on YouTube if it's still around. If the world's still there, I've got no idea. So there's that part of it which is, you know, is what I regard as a great blessing. So that legacy side of things, because I don't know my great, great grandfather, I wouldn't know if he walked in the door, he'd be looking a little wrinkly, but nonetheless, yeah, I don't know that. So the purpose is to help a human day. And that's why I'm going to jump on in 10 minutes on a live Q and A on instagram and on TikTok and basically wait for people to log in and start asking questions like, there is absolutely no monetary benefit to that. But I kid you not, Bosco, the fulfillment that I get out of that, based on my experience, and we don't do a lot of technical. I don't think I'm as technical as Russ Stevens. He's a bit of a ninja, but I think there's a little bit of a, you know, I can help somebody. I don't know if you've heard that analogy where the guy that was walking down the beach and there was all these starfish on the beach and he picked one up and he threw it back in and someone said, don't worry about it. You can't possibly save them all. And then he picks another one up and he throws that back in the ocean. He says, yeah, but I just made a difference in that one's life. And I think, in essence, that's what I'm trying to do.

If there's two things Russ loves, it's his systems and his accountants.

Sure.

Yeah. Well, listen, man, it's been a pleasure chatting with you. For our listeners out there, you're probably the first guest I've had that actually has a TikTok channel. So what's the TikTok handle? Is it Gangster Builder or what?

It should be. Okay, so yeah, business Underscore for F O R Underscore Builders. So business for builders.

Business for builders. Awesome.

We're just about giving value, man.

All right, my man. Well, thank you so much for your time, your energy, your story, and just being real with us. Our listeners are going to love this, and I'm sure we'll have you back again, and I'm wishing you really well from here. Have a Tim Hortons coffee for me when you've done this, too.

Certainly will. Thanks for having me, Bosco. I appreciate it. Cheers.

Cheers, my man.

Thank you for listening.

Remember to subscribe to Professional Builder Secrets on your favorite podcast platform and leave a review. To learn more about how the systems at the association of Professional Builders can help you grow your building company, visit associationofprofessionalbuilders. Com.

See you next time.