69. How To Recruit Top Talent For A Building Company With Sky Stephens

Is it a problem with you and your company and what you are providing? You could have a team member that is underperforming because they never should have been in that role in the first place. Are you even clear on the culture of your company? Red flags are obvious, but the yellow flags, they're the ones that bite you. Every single award you win, that make someone want to work for you, if there's no moral compass there, why are they on your team? You gotta bring meaning and purpose into someone's role and make them realize that what they're doing is bigger than just them.

This is Professional Builder Secrets, the number one podcast to help you grow your building company safely and securely, brought to you by the association of Professional Builders. Join us every week as we talk to industry experts in your your fellow professional builders on everything you need to know to generate more leads, more sales and higher margins while improving the building experience for your clients. Hello and welcome to the Professional Builder Secrets podcast, a podcast by the association of Professional Builders for building company owners, general managers, VPs and emerging leaders. Here we discuss all things running a professional building company from sales processes, financials, operations and marketing. We have another exciting episode from the Professional Builder Secrets podcast. Joining us today is Sky Stevens, co founder for the association of Professional Builders. Skye. Lovely to have you again back with us.

Thank you. How are you, Bosco?

Been doing well. Been doing well. Well, listen, look, we want to talk about how to recruit the best talent for a building company. And is this a problem in the industry right now?

I think recruiting is always a problem, not even just in the building industry in so many industries, but certainly what every industry has seen is the last couple of years have been really difficult, like, really, really dire. I do think it's particularly difficult in building companies, though, because of, I think just the caliber of person you need on your team because these are complex projects. You're dealing with, you know, millions of dollars and you got to have the best people possible. And it is hard to wade through dozens, hundreds of applicants to find who is going to be that right person for you and your team.

Now, is this a problem with finding the right staff or is it a problem with having underperforming staff? You know, is it a bit of both?

Yeah, I'd say so. Yeah, a little bit of both. And I think if you have underperforming staff, I mean, you can look at it in two different ways. Like, is it a problem with your training, your onboarding, is it a problem with you and your company and what you are providing like, are you allowing, Are you enabling maybe is a better word. Any new staff member to succeed and are you even keeping them growing? Are you constantly training them, letting them learn new things? Are you doing performance appraisals? That's definitely one side of it. But also you could have a team member that is underperforming because they never should have been in that role in the first place. So making the wrong choice, making the wrong hire is sort of like the first hurdle, the first step to consider.

And I guess the question that every builder is going to ask you is how do you recognize top talent when you see it?

Like, it's hard because it's not as if you're trying to hire that person with the sparkle in their eye and you just go on gut. It's a combination of two things, right? You need to have the attitude, you've got to have the culture fit, but you do need a level of competence. You can train someone who is coachable, who's trainable, who is an exceptional culture fit and does have a decent baseline of knowledge. You can train them in your systems and you really can help them succeed. But if they're missing one of those two things, like maybe they are an absolute expert on what you need done, but culturally, they are not a fit. They do not align to your core values. You absolutely should not hire them. But just because they are a culture fit and they're a wonderful person doesn't always mean they're going to be an exceptional worker and team member either. So that's. It's this balancing act that you really need to work through and you got to have a little bit of both, but the ability for you as the leader and part of your own company to grow that individual as well.

So they really have to align with your culture values is what you're saying. Really? And if they don't at the start, then it's going to be even harder as, as things progress in the future as well.

Oh, totally. I mean, you think a core value violation is a serious offense or it certainly should be in every single company. Because if there's no moral compass there, why are they on your team? I'd question how you're running your own building company. So you've absolutely got to check for a core value fit and align. Even in the recruitment process. You, gosh, you don't want to figure that out as you're onboarding them or as you've been working with them for a year. Like, that's difficult. And then you just wonder what else has been going wrong in the company. If they're so misaligned on culturally like a value, what else is happening? So, yeah, you absolutely. You got to test for that in the recruitment. You got to really check for that alignment.

Now, are there any best practices that the APB recommends for their builders when it comes to recruiting?

Totally. I mean, we even launched an entire recruitment training for every single one of our members. And while I don't think having a recruitment process is necessarily groundbreaking, it's just another process you need to have in your building company. I think there are a few checkpoints that we walk our members through that maybe aren't groundbreaking, but they're so important. And it's the sequence of how you're doing it and understanding why they need to be done and why you never skip them that makes it so important. Mean we teach a process honestly, it even starts from how you are even positioning the advert. How is your advert even written? Are you incredibly clear on what the description is? Are you incredibly clear on what the responsibilities are? And inside your advert, are you even clear on the culture of your company? Because while you're recruiting and you're trying to filter through and find the best applicants that come to you, you also need to remember that you're still selling, you're still trying to attract amazing talent. So there's so much of this balancing act. You're going to hear me say this the whole time, Bosco, but it's a combination of you're trying to really sell the role and make it sound amazing and exceptional. But on the other side, here's all the responsibilities, here's what is expected and here are our standards. So if you want to apply, here's the process right now.

Is there magic formula for the top talent? You've talked a little bit about making sure that they blend with the culture, but it sounds like culture is actually part of this magic formula.

Totally. So, I mean, even if we look at the whole process right, you've started at the advert, we've got a particular way we need to craft this advert. But we then talk about, okay, what is the actual process from this point? Because I think the laziest way of recruiting is just accepting anyone who applies, like, just because they hit that button on indeed or in seek they applied for this job, in our opinion. Why would you waste your time going through all those resumes? What does reading a resume actually teach you? Not much. It just tells you how good they are at fluffing their experience, which I know Resumes are important and they give a lot of context in so many ways. But that, in our opinion, is absolutely not an application. That does not give you any impetus that they actually wanted to work for you and your building company. That's just someone saying, I want a job. So if you're trying to recruit top talent into your building company, you're not trying to recruit someone who wants a job, you're trying to recruit someone who's looking for a career. And when someone's looking for a career, that means they truly care. Whereas someone who wants a job, in our opinion, is just there to get in, do the work and go home. And while that's okay for some people, I think if you're really trying to grow your building company, trying to make a big movement, really trying to change things, and you're really passionate about what you do, you're spending too much time at work to work with people who are a bit, you know, average.

Now, what are some of the key steps to that whole process of recruitment, specifically in that interview side of things? You talked a little bit about the advert and you talked a little bit about the fact that, you know, reading resumes isn't part of the recruiting process. It's just an indication that they want a job. Take me through your steps or the best steps of having the perfect interview.

Well, I think we've got to understand that we got to have way more hurdles to jump through before you even get to an interview. And I think this is what scares a lot of people from really enhancing their whole recruitment process, because it becomes a really big deal and it's so much work. But this is how you can just eliminate just people who aren't going to be a great fit for the role. So if we talk about, we have the advert, like, there's a particular way we need to write it, but there needs to be a really particular way they need to apply. And a method that we teach, we've taught for years, and I think it's becoming a lot more common. That said, not common enough, because I don't see it in everyone's adverts, which is a shame. But the application, it's got to be gamified in some way, like how to apply. Here's what you need to do next, and make the application really tailored for the role that you're hiring for. You know, if you are hiring for anyone in sales, naturally they're going to be on the phone all the time. So their application needs to be about calling this phone number. And listen to the instructions. And the instructions tell them what to to do next or what message to leave and what to say. And it's about how can they deliver an exceptional voicemail. Anyone in sales needs to be able to be prepared and actually deliver that really well on the phone. If they're fumbling and stumbling, well, okay, when you're grading those applications, they didn't pass. So that's a really simple example. If you look at, you know, for years, every time we hire anyone in marketing, it's we really needed to make sure they had an excellent eye for detail. So this marketing application was, you know, step number one, how to apply. Email this email address and attach a markup of this whole advert with every spelling and grammar or grammatical error that you saw. And we know what errors we put really subtle ones. So if you're actually good at it, you can tell and we knew what ones we're looking for. And you can grade that application. If they did not hit a pass mark, they wouldn't even get contacted. Like they're not passing. So you've got to make sure that application is relevant for the role you're doing. I think attention to detail ones are really great. If you're looking for someone a little bit more creative, maybe a designer, interior designer, selection specialist, I don't know, whatever role you're hiring for, maybe it doesn't need to be a little test in the application. But the application is maybe step one. Email this email address. You want to see a resume, you want to see an up to date cover letter and you want to see a portfolio no longer than 10 pages of your most recent works or like homes you put together or whatever it ends up being, you know, be specific. And when you look at that application, it's okay, well if they sent a resume and a portfolio but not a cover letter, they're not able to follow instructions. So stop allowing people to get through that are trying to bypass a process. And this has happened quite recently, actually. Bosco, if they are applying and they're applying with a resume and you specifically say an up to date resume and cover letter. I've had people have a cover letter that was so clearly an old cover letter that they've applied for every job using and it had the wrong date at the top. It was from like four months ago. So it's like, look, your attention to details poor. So. And it sounds really harsh. You might even be like, oh gosh, this is really difficult. It's like the point, you know, when we teach in the sales process, supply and demand. You want way more leads wanting to build with you than you can build for. You want way more people wanting to work for you than you have positions available because it allows you to get picky, it allows you to have those really high standards. So I know I'm still not answering your question because it's so early on. You've got the advert that's just the application and then you grade those applications, you filter and it's the mindset of who can I get rid of? Because they're not passing, but the people that pass that first stage, that's when they get an invite to a phone interview. And that's a really quick 10, 15 minute call. You're covering all the deal breakers, you're getting to know them, you're trying to verify a few points and then you can grade them on that phone interview. And you know, there are certain things that you've got to cover again, depending on the role that need to get squared away and up front. But again, you have a criteria. You grade them at the end of that call. It's completely scripted so you're asking everyone the same questions conversationally of course, but so that you are grading everyone with the same criteria and then you know who passes till the next round. And that's when you can go to two tests, like an actual skills test. Let's see your experience. Show me you have the ability. And it's, you know, this is a really simplified process that I'm talking about. Now the more advanced position you're hiring for, the more highest paid, really you can call it, because that's, you know, they're going to deliver the most value. There's a lot more steps. It's probably multiple phone calls, it's multiple skills tests because you're really trying to test every, every single area. And in those skills tests, I mean again, this has to be super customized for the person in front of you. Like what role are you actually hiring for? You know, sometimes it involves bringing those applicants on site, doing a walk around with them and then quizzing them at the end or getting them to do a task. You know, we've got a whole example. Sometimes it's about creating a sales script. If you're looking for a sales leader in the company, even if it's just about creating content calendars, it literally could be anything. And then you grade those like applications that they come back with. And again, it's all about filtering. You've got way more people that apply for the job than you actually invite to a phone interview and you've got way more people that do the phone interview that you even invite to the skills test. And you got way more people that do the skills test that even like pass it, complete it and you can actually then invite to. Okay, now it's actually worth our time to sit down and have a really deep interview. Now I'm looking for even more of a culture fit. Can I work with you? Do you have the ability to problem solve? Because a lot of the time people aren't going to know everything. They're really not that people aren't going to come into the company, know everything or how you do it, or even have all of the answers when someone asks them a question. But you know what they need to have? Every single person on your team needs to have this quality. They've got to be able to figure it out. You got to be able to problem solve. Because if they can't do that, then why hire someone that's not going to take off any burden of anyone in a company?

So you've talked a lot about getting to the interview. What should builders look out for that, you know, says, oh, this is great talent. Attention to detail was a big one. And I chuckled when you talked about the application letter with the, you know, with the four month date stamped on it. So obviously that that's important, but also, what are some of the other red flags that you want to look out for in an interview process? So what are the pros and the cons that you look out for?

I love the question because you said red flags and I feel like the red flags are the easiest ones to spot. Everyone knows what a red flag is. Like they were late. They were late with no real reason or excuse, no apology, no preemptive warning. Or maybe they were rude or they did something that's quite obvious. And your gut always knows when there's a red flag and something's not right. So trust your gut in those instances. I think what's less obvious are all the yellow flags. These are all the little warnings that you're sort of like, oh, that's interesting. And I think the most important thing you can do throughout the entire interview process is note down every single yellow flag. Because if there's just one, and maybe it was just on there a little bit off, like they weren't as warm or easy to build rapport with. You're like, well, if you're hiring someone for sales, it's not a good sign. They have to be able to generate a Rapport as you talk to them. But if they're not client facing, they're more internally. It's a yellow flag because you're like, can they get on with the team? Because you're trying to make them fit into your team already. So start noting down the yellow flags and what you want to be able to do is establish was it just that one yellow flag right at the start? But they warmed up and it was a fabulous process from there on out. Or were there just sprinkles of yellow flags constantly through the process? And that's when you have to really take a big perspective, a bird's eye view of it and go, okay, what does this tell me? Is there a theme? What are you seeing? Red flags are obvious, but the yellow flags, they're the ones that bite you.

Interesting. What are your thoughts on recruitment agencies? You know, do they really help builders today? You know, I'm curious to know if there's a. The perspective that might sort of challenge the listeners out there.

I think it's a really interesting question, Bosco, because recruitment agencies, I don't want to lean too much on my personal opinion or certainly our experience. Personally, I don't love them, we don't use them. And the reason for that is a lot of people that are sourced from a recruitment agency have a relationship with a recruiter. So I am pretty sure recruiters always say, no, we don't, we don't like take them away from you. I'm pretty sure it's just like 12 months that they don't do that. They will call them back up again. So I just think that's risky. Now there's another, like, other side to the coin, right? Because if you're treating your team well enough, they're not going to want to leave. So I get that. But that said, sometimes people just get offered wild offers and it's because they had that relationship with a recruiter. Now that's certainly one side of it. I have spoken to a lot of builders who have had great results from using recruiters. But maybe they were for very specific positions. So maybe not back of house positions, maybe not in the office. I have heard of builders having great success with recruiters specifically for trades and people working on site. So yeah, it's hard to speak to that. I've heard both sides of it and I think our answer and our position would be if you can control it and you can build your own recruitment process and you're in complete control, why wouldn't you do that? It's like Dominating your own sales process rather than being reliant on referrals from architects.

And also I think it gives you, like you said, an opportunity to recognize some of the things that you'd see in an interview. And also the red flags and the things that might come back and bite you as well if you're involved in that interview process as well.

100%. Like in one of your final interviews, right. Never interview them one on one, ever. You always need someone else there because you want to see how they interact with two people. There are so many big companies that talk about this, but they even start grading the people who are getting interviewed by how they interact with the receptionist. Like if they're arrogant and barely look at them and don't want to talk to them, you don't belong on the team. Because again, culturally, if you want to build a company like that, that's very interesting, that's on you. That's certainly not what we're recommend or teach or want anyone to build a company. Like you want a team. And if someone in the interview process can't respect anyone on your team because they see them as a lower position, they're below them, why interviewing them, that's, that's not a fit. So you, you need to have all these little checkpoints, all of these little tests. And I think it is harder to do that with a recruiter because someone has been asked to move forward and they almost feel like they can bypass a lot of the step. So if you do use a recruiter, make sure you slot in that talent into your recruitment process so you can still weed them out.

And do you recommend multiple sittings for interviews, like having maybe two interviews or three interviews before you make a final decision?

Yeah, it depends on the role you're hiring for, naturally. But I do want to preface all of this with speed. Just because you're having this many steps doesn't mean it needs to be a six week long, drawn out process. Because the best people, the top talent that you are looking for, they're going to be in high demand. So again, it's that word again, it's this balancing act you've gotta go through as quickly as possible, but as detailed as possible. Make sure you don't skip any of your steps. So, you know, for some easier positions, maybe it's only two interviews, maybe it is a phone interview, an in person or a zoom, face to face online interview, maybe that's all you need. But for the more in depth positions, you're probably going to meet with them about Three times.

Now, what are some of the best questions to ask during an interview? And I'm sure every builder wants to know this.

We actually have these documented for our members. So some phone interview questions that you can ask. Some, like, final interview questions you can ask. There's a question that I really love asking or a couple of questions I really love asking people. Actually, the first one is. And you've got to set it up right. There's no right or wrong answer here. Quite frankly, you can't win in the question I'm about to give you. I just want to know what you value more and what you would prefer. So do you think it is better to be on time or prepared?

Oh, that's an interesting question. There isn't really a right answer to that. They're both really important, too.

I think technically there is a right answer, depending how they answer it and what role they're interviewing for.

Interesting.

Because what. Whatever answer they give you. I mean, don't move on. That's not the point. It's like whatever answer. If they say. And you got to note down how they answer it as well, because some people are not missing a beat. It's on time. Never be late. And you. And you just sort of immediately like, there's so much conviction in what they've said. So you got to like, note that down. Again, you're trying to really. You're noting down so much more than people's answers in an interview. You're noting down how they answer it, what their mannerisms are, like how, you know, honest are they or, you know, are they very job interviewee. And whatever they say. So say it was. Yep, it needs to be on time. Why? Tell me why you think that or why does that matter? And you want to see where their headspace goes. So, I mean, naturally, if someone's in sales or if they are a, you know, project manager and it's all about the timelines, that's quite good. Okay, interesting. Tell me more about that. Why? And you want to hear the argument behind it. There are some yellow flags that can come out of these. You know, I've talked to a lot of salespeople where it's on time. You can always, like, you know, blag your way through something. Don't really want those kinds of people on your team. You want the conviction of you've got to show up on time, so you've got to make sure you are prepared. Because if you know that your standard is that you cannot be late. You do everything in your possible everything in your ability to make sure you show up on time and that you are prepared. That said, if something happens, you show up on time and you explain the situation. I love hearing the explanations from people in this question. Either way, sometimes people are really passionate about being prepared. And that's when they explain the answer 100% prepared. And what we need to do is make sure if we're not prepared, we get in touch prior in advance and explain the situation, apologize and offer a potential solution, offer a reschedule. The answers are important. Like, the detail is twice. But I think that's a really, really good question to be asking people.

I mean, come to think about it, showing up on time is a form of preparation as well. So it's an interesting question. You got me thinking there too. And very, very seldom do I go, but that one was good. That was really good.

It's a thinker. And it's funny because if someone's not immediate with the answer, they can sit back and go, ah, it depends. It depends. Hey, actually, this is interesting. People who won't answer this question is also, it's also very insightful because if they're like, oh, it just depends. I mean, they're both important. I was like, but if you had to pick one, like, really egg them on here. You're like, if you had to pick one, Bosco, you had to, you had to fall into one of two camps. Which one's more important? And if they are unable to pick a side, that shows you someone that's just indecisive, how on earth can they make a simpler decision? It's not a difficult decision to make. You just need to pick a side and then sell your side of it. It that's quite insightful. There's another question that I like, and it's funny because I asked this one the other day and there are so many questions. Obviously, there's a lot of questions about try to understand the person, how do they learn best? Like, how do they like to be mentored? Do they really know themselves? How do they learn? What's their personality style? But specifically, one of the questions I like to ask is, people usually fall into one of two categories. You're either. And these are just my words. I don't think these are technical words at all. You're either a compounder or a chunker. So say, for example, Bosco, you've got a task that needs to get done. It's a really repetitive task. Something's happened, and there's 200 contacts say that you just need to fix up pretty simple. But there are 200, so it's not a really quick task. Your personality style, what gives you more satisfaction? Do you like to just chunk it down? You go straight through all 200, you get it done. That's your sense of satisfaction. Or are you a compounder? You let the compound effect do its magic and you just do 20 a day for 10 days. It's not going to take up too much time and you just schedule it and it becomes a non event. Again, neither answer is wrong. But I need to understand the person in front of me. Like your interview is not only weeding people out, but you're trying to understand them.

I think I theme my days myself. So it's interesting. It's interesting because there's so many different working styles to that too. Right? So some people would just go, I'm going to go at it and not stop until it's done. And yeah, there's people like myself that theme their days.

But I tell you what, this, it almost ended up being a trick question and I didn't even realize it at the time. If you're interviewing someone for a leadership position and you ask this question, I got the best answer the other day. Do you know what they said? They were like, oh, if it was that many things and it's like quite a simple task, I'd just give it to someone else to do. I was like, delegation, well done. That was even in better answer.

Isn't that the dad rule? It's delegate, automate or delete. I still remember those.

Delete, automate, delegate. Totally. Yeah. So it was just immediate, like, oh, if it's that simple, I'm sure we could give it to someone else.

All right, so let's go a little bit further. Does the recruitment process end after an interview or has the work just begun?

I like this question. It's kind of like an inception question because I think you are always recruiting and I remember a lot of people would always say that and I'm thinking yawn. Like this is. That's a lot of work to be always on, always recruiting. Sometimes you just don't always have a position. But it's kind of like what we need to think about in a building company is to build a sales process and your marketing. This needs to be always on. Even if you are booked out for the next 12, 18 months anyway, you never stop. So we got to think of the same as recruitment. We need to be constantly representing our building company as the place to work. So while I don't Think the recruitment. Well, I suppose recruiting for a particular position stops once you have hired for it. In a technical sense, sure. This is why we need to be doing six monthly performance appraisals, making sure our team are engaged. They are learning what they want to be learning. They are at a level where we need them to be and they're happy to be as well. But not only that, we're doing employee net promoter scores. So we're really grading and asking all of our team, you know, do you feel valued? Are you happy here? Trying to get a temperature check on our existing team. And you know what, when you get those results, this is part of your quote unquote recruiting because you need to use that in your marketing. Like when we were fortunate enough, like we went through a great place to work certification. It's a survey that, it's an independent survey that goes through like our own team, they surveyed every team member and essentially if you pass a certain grade, you could get a certification that you are a great place to work. Now, we weren't even actively recruiting when we went through that certification, but it was like, great, let's get that done. Because when we do need to recruit, we got all these assets ready. And it's the same in your own building company. Every single award you win that makes someone want to work for you, Ah, they are a professional building company. They're an award winning building company. They've got it together, they've got all of these reviews on seek and indeed about what it's like to work for this building company. So while in a technical sense, I don't think recruiting stops, you need to be constantly working on the marketing and all of the assets so you look like the most amazing place to work. So that it actually influences and helps your recruitment when you are actively advertising and interviewing, viewing and filtering through applicants.

So let's just say you've hired what we call top talent that started off. How do you set them up for success? Does it start with the first day when they walk into the office? You know, is there a welcoming way of onboarding them? Is there an onboarding process that you recommend?

Oh, 100%. 100%. We even made a completely separate training for onboarding and training new team members. Because as closely linked as it is to recruitment, this is a whole other world in itself. And onboarding has to be done right. You know, I read in this book, and I wish I could remember which book it was, but they were talking about why do we have parties and celebrations on someone's Last day at a company, why do we have a cake and balloons and have a farewell and blah, blah, blah. Why do you celebrate someone leaving but not someone joining? We need to put in just as much effort. When someone joins the company, you got to make it a celebration, make them feel so welcome. Because, you know, like anything, you got to get that stick rate. People can change their mind, like if something bad happens in their first week or two or they just don't feel part of the team, that feeling sticks with them, it stays with them and they could very easily just start looking for another job. They're not committed to you in any way. Just because they signed that contract, you're still selling it. You want to make them feel super involved, get everyone on the team, make them feel welcome, celebrate their arrival, but set them up for success. Like you said, Bosco, you need to have a really detailed training plan, like thoroughly detailed, with some autonomy in there, but literally take them by the hand and walk them through how they can succeed in this role so they really don't feel like they got dumped into it. Because I promise you, when you really listen to a lot of phone interviews and interview, when you listen, when you are talking to people you are recruiting, look out for how many times people say there was no training, you know, recruited for this role. I got headhunted, I got put in the role and I had no resources, I don't really know what I was doing. I had to create this, I had to go out and find, you know, build a trend or this software and I implemented it. And while that's, you know, some people can be quite proud of that. You can really hear reading between the lines that they felt like they were dumped in it and it was sink or swim. So they just started swimming like crazy. So why don't you give them a head start, give them some floaties, let them have a good time and succeed.

Do you have some quick tips on how to retain staff? She talks a little bit about the fact that, you know, if, let's say a recruitment agency brought someone in, you know, in 12 months they're going to be approaching them again for something else. How do you keep that top talent to stay there?

I think this is where we come full circle, boss. Go. Culture is so important, among other things. People have to be engaged in the work they're doing. I think, think everyone is looking for meaning. This goes really off topic actually. There's a book called Lost Connections. Really interesting book, but it's actually. Have you read it?

I haven't no, but it sounds very familiar.

It's called Lost Connections and it's actually a book kind of about mental health and it's talking about the link between depression and anxiety. And they were talking about of all this research of everything you're looking for, people are just looking for meaning. And if people are doing work that is not meaningful, you're more likely to go into depression and anxiety. And I'm obviously paraphrasing, it's a really interesting book, would recommend it. But that was really interesting because if people realize that they have no purpose in the work they're doing, they stop caring. There's no loyalty to it and they're not going to go above and beyond. So you want to make sure in your team, no matter what you're doing, honestly, no matter what you're doing. I know we're talking about building companies here, but any company can take this on board. You got to bring meaning and purpose into someone's role and make them realize that what they're doing is bigger than just them. They are serving their local community. Like if you're trying to make your local community the most livable place in your state or whatever, that means your whole service to them, your, your finished product, how you're interacting with them and problem solving for them, they've got a lot more meaning there. Plus as well what's their role in the company. Because if they are then seen as a leader, like, I mean, you would know what it's like, Bosco, when people look up to you, you again have even more meaning for what you do because you want to help and guide and mentor other people. So if we can make sure we're giving opportunities like that to people in our team, make them feel like what they're doing has a purpose, has a meaning, that something bigger, them, that's huge. Obviously training is huge. You got to make sure people feel valued though. And all of this plays into culture naturally. This is just going a bit deep, but you got to make sure every single person feels valued. Every single person on your team is a person first and foremost. So get to know them as a person. There's someone behind who shows up to work. So you got to understand, know and like you, your people, there's a job to be done. So you know all those old school leaders who are just talking about people who show up to work and it's about being professional and a certain way.

Yes.

Yeah, I think we're past that. I think we're really past that. And you know, a lot of People talk about it's not about being liked, it's about being respected. I do believe it can be both. And I think you can get a lot more respect and a lot more out of your team if they know and like you as well. Well, so it's not about bending over backward to make sure people like you, but it's about making sure there is a level of respect there so we can all get on. But we know there's a job to do as well. And I just think that's the way forward. So you've got to make sure people feel valued and just quickly on that, always it's not by how much they are paid. For a lot of people, it is so not discounting that. And this is why you need to literally ask people, how do you want to be rewarded? How are you motivated? Because, sure, money gives people security, but to a certain point, some other people, they just really value time, so they value a little bit more time or leave or holidays or maybe. You know what's really surprising, Bosco? A lot of the time it's just recognition. That's all people are looking for. They're looking for that phone call to say, you know what, you actually were amazing this week. Thank you. Or sometimes people need public recognition as well. But you got to understand all of your individuals. And I think all of that is just summed up in one word as culture.

And it's interesting because everyone goes through different needs at different stages in their lives and where they're at in their career, you know, as well. So I've recently met people that are close to retirement, and for them, they just want something that they love doing, but they want the simplicity of it. And for others, you know, for me, at my time in my life now, with all my relationships, it's about creating safety in energy and the people I surround myself with as well. So I think you're right. I think it's. It goes beyond money, it goes beyond the monetary value. I think we just are going through different stages of our lives, and it's really important to know what stage where our people are in exactly.

And while we're talking about recruiting top talent, oftentimes you can recruit, I would still call them top talent, but my goodness, they just become better and better and better with the way you can train them and teach them and mentor them and grow them and grow with them, you know, and just as long as you are growing and becoming a better leader, you can retain top talent and just make them even better. And that's the most fulfilling. But again, if we just rewind what the whole episode, what we're talking is about is just get your recruitment process in order. Because I tell you what, as well, I think this makes a massive impact. When your team can see that you accept a subpar person on the team, they're not going to try as hard. That's not as motivating. So when they realize that you're just letting anyone in, at this point, there's no standards like who we work with impacts everyone. I mean, we spend too much time at work to not like people. So your recruitment process is so important. And when you have such a rigorous recruitment process that everyone goes through, there's that mutual respect on the team, like, we all made it through. Oh, I had to do that too. Or you had to do this. And you know what I mean, Everyone had to jump through all these hoops.

Look, I can talk to you about this topic for quite some time, but I'm going to throw you at one final question, which is do you believe that builders should be proactively looking for talent even outside of that interview or recruitment process, or is there a time and place to look for top talent?

Oh, I think you should always be looking for talent. At the end of the day, always be making your connections. Because even if you don't have an opportunity for someone right now, you don't have to promise anyone anything. You need to have relationships with people in the industry. Absolutely. Even if you just find someone who's not immediately in your industry, but they are an exceptional salesperson or a marketer or whatever, build those connections. And this is where your constant recruiting marketing happens. Make sure they are seeing what your company is achieving. Make sure they are seeing what or how happy your existing team members are. Because one day the opportunity might be there and you can approach them. This is really important, though. If you approach someone for a position, position doesn't mean they skip to the final interview. You are approaching them to apply. See if they are interested and make sure they follow the process. Because at the end of the day, every single building company should be so systemized that if someone cannot follow a simple procedure to apply, they're not going to follow any other procedure of yours. So it's all about weeding them out.

Always be networking, right?

Apparently. Yeah.

Well, I would say that you would probably be sharing some of these checklists and recruitment tips as well to our listeners out there as well on the show notes.

Yeah, absolutely. What we'll do in the show notes, we'll put a direct link to our course for all of our members on recruiting, even onboarding. But we'll also include a link to the demonstration of membership because I'm pretty sure in this demo video I open up the recruitment process so you can have a little bit of a look as well.

Well sky, lovely to have you again. Thank you for your insights, your knowledge and your tips. We look forward to chatting with you again.

Amazing. Thanks for having me. Bosco.

Cheers. Thank you for listening. Remember to subscribe to Professional Builder Secrets on your favorite podcast platform and leave a review. To learn more about how the systems at the association of Professional Builders can help you grow your building company, visit associationofprofessionalbuilders.com See you next time.