71. Introducing APB Chapters With Russ, Sky & Andy

These are meetings that are run by builders for builders.

It's about connection. We want people to be able to actually talk to each other.

Odds are that someone else has been through what you're going through and has already solved that problem.

The format is really going to be driven by the needs of the group.

We want to see chapters everywhere.

The purpose of our chapters is to help builders come out of that isolation and become genuinely more connected, skin to skin, not pixel to pixel.

This is Professional Builder Secrets, the number one podcast to help you grow your building company safely and securely. Brought to you by the association of Professional Builders. Join us every week as we talk to industry experts and your fellow professional builders on everything you need to know to generate more leads, more sales and higher margins while improving the building experience for your clients. Hello and welcome to the Professional Builder Secrets podcast, a podcast by the association of Professional Builders for building company owners, general managers, VPs and emerging leaders. Here we discuss all things running a professional building company from sales, processes, financials, operations and marketing. It's time for another exciting episode from the Professional Builder Secrets podcast. Joining us today are Sky Stevens, co founder for the association of Professional Builders. Lovely to have you, Sky.

Hey Bosco, how are you?

I'm well, I'm well. And we also have Russ, co founder as well for the association of Professional Builders. Great to have you, Russ.

And you. Good to see you, Bosco.

Great seeing you too. And Andy Scarta, head coach for the association of Professional Builders. Thank you for joining us today.

You are very welcome. I was thinking today, I love these things because you get to ask Russ the questions I've always wanted to ask him and then I get to hear him answer them. So I love these. Thank you for having me again.

Well, you should prompt some questions my way, my friend. But I'll start off with a simple one. What is, what are the APB chapters?

With the APB chapters, these are meetings that are run by Builders for Builders and they create an opportunity for the owners and directors of residential building companies to just, just come together and talk about what is happening in their world. And it can be anything at all. It can be business, it can be personal. There's no restrictions on, on what they talk about. But what does matter is that if you're feeling burnt out, exhausted, frustrated, anxious or, or even depressed, there are other people out there that care about, about your well being. And these meetings, they give builders the opportunity to come together and support each other because let's be honest, there's not a lot of sympathy out there. For builders in the marketplace, I think when you look at public opinion, public opinion is that builders earn a fortune. And so a large part there's this perception that they rip people off. But as we know, the truth is obviously very, very different. And it's so important, I think, for builders to interact other like minded people that get you, that understand you and talk your language.

How did this initiative come about? Because you know, we talk about, you know, time with builders being a very strong currency. So how did this initiative come to play and how did builders really want to give more?

Well, let's call them a community group, right? And as soon as you boil it down to that, it's not a particularly groundbreaking idea because community groups have been around for years and decades. So the fact that we're trying to bring people together that are like minded, it's not earth shattering, a brand new concept. However, for us and the builders we're trying to bring together, this is different, this is unique because there wasn't a group of professional building company owners all meeting up together regularly with any kind of system. Now for us, what happened in, in a way for us to be able to launch this and think of it was it was a few years ago, a few of our members, specifically based down in Adelaide in Australia started putting out some messages into our private members only Facebook group, essentially wanting to catch up, trying to ask who else is in this area? Hey, raise your hand if you're in this area. We would like to meet up and let's just catch up and get connected. And it was really interesting to see such a small area, such a small amount of builders in that area put their hand up and want to collaborate and want to connect physically in person and when we started seeing that in a town that it's not a hugely dense town like you know, Sydney or a massive city, so to be able to see that, thinking, wow, this is something. So that essentially led us to where we are today. We wanted to launch chapters, we wanted to launch a way for our builders to connect with each, each other in, we want this in every single city. We want builders to connect and collaborate with like minded builders just like them.

And looking back, it's no surprise, is it that it kind of originated in Adelaide because Adelaide is an amazing place really for builders. These guys are the, the warmest, most friendliest guys out there. So yeah, it's, it's funny looking back now, it is no surprise it originated from there.

So who can join the APB chapters? And who is this for? Is it just for builders, it's specifically.

Targeted at the business owners. So we really, and you know, we sometimes use adjectives kind of because we talk about all day, we miss the impact of it. We're talking about professional builders here. So you know, guys that are really looking to be that step above kind of, you know, the average, let's call it non professional builder. But we really want to focus it at that leadership level of custom home builders and remodelers. Not people that are still on the tools, literally people that are now business people running a building business. And although we're calling them APB chapters, they this is not limited to APB members. This is literally any builder that would classify himself as already a professional builder or wanting to become a more professional builder. This would be the perfect place to go. And I, I think Russ and Sky have touched on where this came from. But I just going to add a little element to obviously the impact of COVID on the building industry and on builders in particular created a fairly dark sort of mental health scenario. And when we dug into that with some of the organizations that work in that space, particularly in Australia, we found that isolation and isolation from two perspectives. One, physical isolation and two, the fact that in the construction industry, because it is predominantly male oriented and we know that's historical, we know that we're working to change that, but that's the reality. There's this cowboys don't cry, she'll be right mentality, people don't open up and talk to each other. So we just realized that if there was something we could do that would help to lift that, that isolation thing. When people start to understand they're not the only one going through that dark situation. There are other people and not only are there other people, but some of them have possibly come up with other ways to deal with it. That's really where this thing starts to get into its stride.

Now are there locations just in Australia? All over Australia, you know, how did you go about picking the locations?

So we've got builders running chapters in Australia, New Zealand and the USA at the moment. In Australia alone there's regular meetings in Perth, Adelaide, Camden, which is just outside Sydney, Brisbane and Melbourne. And in New Zealand we've got a, a guy called Brent Chatterton who's running a chapter in Christchurch. And in the US we've got Bryce Rowland kicking off a chapter in South Jordan which is near Salt Lake City in Utah. Now of course this is just the beginning. I mean we'd like to have enough chapters running so that any builder can join a meeting regardless of their location. So we're constantly helping more builders to start a chapter in their area and hopefully we'll, we'll have some chapters up and running in Canada pretty soon as well.

Now, you know, sky, you mentioned that the concept of communities is an old concept. It's been there a long time. But what makes this chapter's concept so unique for the builders?

Well, I think it's. It is everything Andy and Russ have just said. It's obviously it's not a knitting group, it's not a sports group. It's what makes it unique are the people there. And it's the fact that it's so specific who you have to be to actually access one of these chapters. So a massive part of them for us as well is we want to keep them small. You know, we don't want to have community groups or chapters with 30 or 40 people in them. It's actually the opposite of what we want to happen because as Russ has just said, it's. It's about connection. We want people to be able to actually talk to each other. And by the time you pass, a certain amount of people, a lot of smaller in independent conversations start happening. It's not a collective group and it's. It becomes a lot less about collaboration. So to answer your question, Bosco, what's going to make them unique is A, the people in the room, but B, how many people are in the room? So if we can cap them to 10 people in that room having a conversation, everyone is involved. And it does keep fostering that culture of collaboration, support, and really understanding what's going on with everyone else inside that room. It's structured in a sense that we know where they're going to be held, when they're going to be held, how often they're going to be held, and who needs to be in the room. But they're informal in a sense, so that the conversation can be whatever it needs to be that month, whatever needs to be discussed, whatever someone needs support with that's going to be the most important thing.

And I just think to amplify that a little bit, one of the other unique factors is that they are very, very local. So you are going to get conversations happening in one that are not mirrored anywhere else. And the, the beautiful part of this from our perspective is we have no agenda. We are not trying to drive these in any particular direction. We simply want to facilitate a process whereby builders can come in and talk about what's important to them in their.

Part of the world, how frequent are these events and, and you know, what does the future of these events look like?

Currently they're at once a month. We're running them at the moment on a Tuesday evening, the second Tuesday of the month from 5:30 until 7. Because we are, you know, kind of developing this concept. They may go to more than that or they may move around at some time in the future. But I don't think we'd ever end up at less than once a month. And obviously that's the formal part of the evening. What we'd really like to see happen is that relationships grow out of that. And then possibly builders would be connecting individually or whatever around in between those as well.

I think we've seen that as well, haven't we recently the feedback we get from the chapter presidents where yeah, they've been catching up outside of the, the initial chapter meeting and, and just meeting for a coffee. And I think the thing that's really striking about that is these are, would have been perceived as competitors now meeting up for coffee and chatting and other instances where guys didn't know each other but reaching out to the chapter more of a one on one chat, you know, where maybe they needed a little bit more support really. I guess, yeah.

So take me through the process of what happens when a builder wants to sign up. You know, first of all, how do they sign up, where do they see the sign up and what does the process look like once they do sign up?

Well, there's two ways that they can register for a chapter meeting. The first way is they, they could get invited by the chapter president themselves because you know, like Andy pointed out, this isn't limited to APB members. This really isn't about APB at all. We're just trying to promote these meetings going on. So we encourage the chapter presidents to tap into their network and invite builders along that they might know in the local area. So it could be a direct invitation from a chapter president. But we've also got quite an extensive database of builders and followers on social channels as well. We promote these meetings that are going on and we allow builders to register their interest by going to our website and just submitting a quick form which what that does, it automates the process of introducing them to the chapter president in their particular area. So they can see a list of meetings and see if there's one in their area. They submit the form, they get automatically introduced. We share the contact details of both parties. What happens then is the chapter president will add them to a calendar meeting, invite and that then confirms the date and the time, which is always the second Tuesday at 5:30. But it also has the address, you know, the location on there, along with directions of how to get there. And invariably the chapter president will also also reach out by phone or SMS beforehand as well. But yeah, after that happens, once you're registered, it's down to you to get yourself to the meeting at 5:30 sharp. Because these meetings do kick off at 5:35 so don't rock up late, you know, consider everyone else's time. But yeah, rock up on time at 5:30 the meeting kicks off pretty sharp and from our experience they, they get started quite quickly and the time just flies. But we do try to bring them to a close after 90 minutes just to respect everyone's time.

Now what can builders expect when they join the chapter? They're invited to these events. What can they expect from being a chapter member?

I guess.

Well, that was actually a great question. You said chapter member. So it'd be a really good idea just to establish the difference because I think we've actually thrown around chapter president quite a bit, but not actually explained that role. So what we've got is any community group you try and join, someone has to take charge. Someone has to be a leader of a meeting. So what we created when we wanted to go out and set up chapters, it's like, okay, who can actually spearhead this chapter in this specific location, in this specific area? So we created, I suppose you could say the term chapter president. And essentially the president of that chapter is someone who is responsible for keeping the meeting on time, hosting it. A big part of it is for facilitating the conversation. It's absolutely not doing any coaching, any training. It's not delivering any kind of material. It's, it's absolutely not about that. It's, it's literally what we found is certainly with our chapter presidents, they want to be the president because they want to give back to the builders in their community. So it's really coming from a different place. And to be a chapter president you do have to apply and we have a conversation. And the chapter presidents are chosen so that it makes sense for them to be the president of that chapter and lead those, those meetings. Just from a leader's perspective. Now the chapter president does everything that Russ literally just went through. So getting the people there, making sure there's reminders going out. And as an attendee of a chapter, you are going to that chapter president's most likely offices, if not their home, because these meetings take place in A private location. They're not at a pub or at a bar, at a restaurant. They're not in a public location. They're at a very private location like your offices or your home, so that it can be an open conversation. Because at the end of the day, when you think about the attendees, who's actually coming to these chapters, as Andy has said, these are building company owners, the owners and directors of a company. So the topics we're going to get into, I mean, these are private conversations and they're big topics as well. So we wanted them to happen in private. And whether you head to their office or their home, you're going to have those hour and a half, couple hours of discussion where you can actually open up, share, ask questions, lean on other people's experiences, see what if they're experiencing this and it really is a focus on collaboration. That said, as an attendee, there is absolutely no pressure for you to share anything you don't feel comfortable to. There's no pressure, there's no rules. Quite simply, if you're even apprehensive about going to your first chapter meeting, you can just show up, up and observe. You can get to know all the other builders there and just share what you are willing to and what you're ready to and then keep coming back. And then over time, you might find yourself really engaging and really getting a lot out of these chapters because you just feel more and more comfortable. But first and foremost, build those connections with the other builders around you in that area.

And you don't necessarily have to have a particular problem or challenges going on to attend one of these meetings. You might, might want to come along and just be there to support other builders. You know, we have a lot of guys come along because they want to give back. They want to support other builders and, and help build this community as well. So yeah, it can be a combination there of contributing as well as, you know, receiving the benefits.

100. I mean, even just think about some of the topics that have been raised in the chapters so far. I mean, there were topics about builder etiquette in the local area, like what should we do? Okay, so say we've seen your plans come across our desk from these consumers. Shall I give you a call? Shall I let you know these are real conversations that are happening? How is the business and running of your building company impacting you and your family's time? How did you get around that? What routines do you have? How are you coping in a crime, like anything, anything at all, these topics go any which way they need to based on the people in the room.

So, you know, there seems to be a big emphasis and compassion and empathy for the builders as well, and build a sense of togetherness. Take me through what the format of these events look like and how can they benefit the builders?

Well, we require that every builder wears a Bob the Builder costume at the event, so they have to get dressed first and then once they've got dressed, they then recite the creed where they basically say, my name is Andy and I'm a builder. No, I'm joking. I'm talking rubbish. The format is really going to be driven by the needs of the group. As we've said, we deliberately don't want to force any group to go in any particular direction, but it's going to be literally, as sky has mentioned, there is a chapter president. He's going to make sure that things kick off on time. He's going to be watching time. He's obviously going to do his best without further pressurizing anybody to involve everybody who's there in the discussions that are going on so that everybody gets the opportunity to participate. So, you know, the chapter presidents, when we sort of launched this idea with people, they were kind of worried that they were going to have to become therapists and counselors and all the rest of it. That's absolutely not the case. They are simply there to facilitate and direct. And then Russ and Sky have done an amazing job of putting together a package of support things for them. And obviously, if they, particularly if they find that somebody needs a particular type of help, they're obviously able then to direct them to the necessary resources. But it's, you know, you mentioned empathy and compassion. That's probably not going to happen at meeting one because we, you know, predominantly males and we all have to pretend to each other that we're fine. But what we really wanting to see is that the format will morph over time as people get confident with each other and comfortable with each other, and hopefully things will start to go a lot deeper. But they don't have to. It literally every single one. We wanted to have its own identity based on the needs of the group.

Andy Scarter. Yeah, you said he. For chapter presidents one too many times and males attending this event way too many times, we have female chapter presidents and female chapter attendees. So it's not, and this is a really big point, I have to say, because especially in this industry, especially all the charity work as well, it's a lot of men's health. It actually, it is inclusive it is for the ladies too.

And my knuckles have been suitably wrapped. I, I received that rebuke in the way it was delivered. Bad Andy.

Well, in fairness too, I have interviewed a lot of building owners that also have wives that are part of it or co owners, you know, and I actually just recently talked to one of the couples together from Canada as well. So shout out to the, to the ladies representing this industry, the growing industry.

Yes.

Look, it's an interesting point because, yeah, like sky says, yeah, we do have a couple of female chapter presidents, which is awesome. But also now that we've had a few of these meetings, what we've seen recently as well is where the husband couldn't make a meeting and the wife has come along. Now, we don't have any kind of rules in place as to whether they can both come together or not, but we do find that, that they tend to open up a bit more if they're on their own rather than coming together. And that seems to be what's kind of happening. But yeah, it was really interesting that, yeah, the husband couldn't make it. So yeah, the wife came along and yeah, just had a. Yeah, enjoyed the time and had different perspective and great input.

That's it. And again, it just comes down to, it's whatever you're comfortable with. So whether you feel comfortable alone or together, it truly is up to you.

Now, what can builders expect from these events? As far as the content you talked about, you know, the fact that it's an open dialogue, different topics, I'm just curious if there's a curation process for these topics or thoughts or does it organically come out?

Yeah, well, as Andy alluded to, these meetings are evolving all the time. Sky and myself do have a follow up meeting with all the chapter presidents the morning after these meetings run so that we can get the communication flowing two ways. And this is where the president share what worked well in the evening and what they feel they can improve or what would work better in future meetings. And because they all get to share that we're getting combined feedback. So it's moving quite fast in terms of our learnings. And yeah, it's really evolving quite quickly now in terms of expectations as far as the, the content's concerned. I think it's, it's an opportunity, you know, to be heard because a problem served, a problem shared is a problem halved. And it's really powerful. Talking about challenges and, and when you talk about challenges, you know, odds are that someone else has been through what you're going through and has already solved that problem. So they're able to give good first hand advice and support. And I think what we've seen lately has come up in our post chapter meetings with the presidents is builders are sharing information on suppliers and subcontractors. Now typically, because they're all localized, they're using a lot of the same, same suppliers and subcontractors. And typically builders don't talk to each other, which makes it really easy to divide and conquer them. But by sharing this information with each other and working together, they can achieve so much more. And the builders actually do this are the ones on top of their game because they don't have the scarcity mindset. They're not withholding information and hiding information. They're finding that the more open they are, the more they can work together with each other, the better it is for everyone. And we, you know, we all rise together.

Now what is the long term vision for these APB chapters? You know, you've talked about the fact that you want to expand, but what are some of the things that you'd like to see from this takeoff far and wide?

Bosco, we want to see chapters everywhere. This is not exclusive for big cities. It's not one in a city. No, we want them to be so dense that you've got multiple to choose from. So it sort of becomes like one of those groups that, you know, what if that first chapter you went to isn't for you, they're actually another couple around you in the local area. Try those out as well. Find your tribe, find your people. They're not going to expand in terms of who's going to be invited. We're not going to make them for anyone else. It literally is just the building company owners capping it at 10 and having good quality conversations in them. That is our expansion plan. Doing more of those rather than opening it up to more people or subcontractors, suppliers. Again, this is something exclusive for the builders in the industry. This is just for you guys.

Now you've alluded to mental health, wellness. What are some of those important factors or, you know, important benefits for the builders to connect with each other. What are you seeing from these, these outcomes that are happening right now?

Well, I think I mentioned the I word earlier. In this industry, in fact, in any business, as the leader of the business, it's often lonely, even if you've got a husband and wife situation, running the business together. Sometimes because of the fact that we're all human, we don't open up to each Other, or maybe we open up too much. There's a whole bunch of interpersonal dynamics that are going on in the leading of a professional building business. So partly we want to address the isolation thing. We want to make sure that nobody feels like they're alone and there's nowhere for them to get help. But you know, the specialists that we spoke to in this area of mental health and wellness, really the thing that they zeroed in on was the fact that we don't talk, we don't communicate with each other. Russ has alluded to the, you know, the scarcity mindset, that there is a sort of pervasive thing of keep your cards close to your chest. You know, somebody says, how are you doing? I'm wonderful. And unless somebody follows it up with no, no, how are you really doing? You know, there's the superficial kind of interaction that never ever gets into people really talking about how they are and how what they dealing with in their businesses and obviously because of that in their lives. So that's really the biggest kind of. What's the word? That's where we're focusing on. That's why it's important. Let's get people together and let's get people talking. And if those two things start to happen, the, the outcomes that we were hearing about where the isolation was leading to depression, the depression was leading to self medication, usually with alcohol and drugs and all of the negative consequences that come with that and unfortunately to self harm of varying degrees. And I heard one person describe it as people eventually coming up with a permanent solution to a temporary problem problem. And you know, obviously there we're talking about suicide. Unfortunately we're in an industry where there's power tools around, we up and down scaffolding. There's unfortunately on a day by day basis, a real opportunity in this industry for people to get hurt. And the reality here is we need to get people to understand that often the problems they are dealing with are temporary. And somebody just down the road went through it a year ago and they'd be happy to share with you how they dealt with it. I think that's really what we're aimed at. And girls.

Yeah, I was gonna say it's a bad day. It's not a bad life.

Exactly.

It's a bad week. It's not a bad life. It's a bad month. Like sometimes you just got a problem one after the other. But you know, often it's. It's not all bad as well. Just going back to something you said just then as well. Andy was. When someone asks you, how are you? It's always like, yeah, yeah, I'm good. And unless someone says, no, how are you? Actually? Because a lot of the time, people just don't even care. Like, we're actually not even asking, really consciously, how are you either? And so I think that's what's really special about these meetups and these groups. It's an opportunity to. It's like permission to have time to even care about other people as well. How is everyone? This is our community, this is our local area. These are all of us in it together here. How are we doing? Let's check in.

And I think what Russ said earlier is critically important. You know, this thing of we all rise together. That concept of, you know, and I. I loved the fact. I hadn't even thought about the fact that all of a sudden builders can talk about the Richard Cranium electrician that's messing them all around. You know, I mean, that the spin off of that sort of combined focus on the local building industry, I think is huge now.

You know, it's also one of. I think. I think it was you, sky, that said, you know, people in the past would say builders are competitors and now you bring them together. How can builders benefit from this type of network? Because, you know, we focus on clients, we focus on prospects, but now we're hanging out with our fellow professionals. What's the key benefit here from this type of network?

Well, I can't tell you how many times I've had a builder's wife reach out to me and just ask that I contact her husband and speak to him because she's worried, you know, he's going into a bad place. And. And I'm sure Andy has got plenty of similar experiences, both with himself and the coaching team as well. It's. It is quite a common thing. And when we reach out to these guys and say, how you doing? What's the first thing they say? Yeah, great. Yeah, everything's fine. And it's only because, you know, you know, that you. I mean, you can't say, I've been asked to call you, but, you know, you have to go deeper and. And then it kind of brings out the real challenge and then you can start to help someone when you're talking about the real problem. And that's how builders can benefit from these groups, just by being in an environment where they can go beyond the superficial. I'm great. And talk to people that want to listen to them, enable. In order to enable builders to benefit fully we, we don't have many rules surrounding these meetings, but one thing we do ask of the chapter presidents, obviously we want to keep the, the registration to owners and directors of residential building companies. But when they're running the meeting, what we do ask is that they maintain one conversation at a time. What we don't want is all different conversations going on. These are small groups of 10, 10 people. Everyone deserves to be heard and deserves the respect of the, the room. And that's probably one of the few rules or requirements that we ask of the presidents is to manage that rule and, and also to involve everyone. Yeah, some people may not want to talk or feel comfortable, but at least give them the opportunity to talk so they can be heard. Another way they can benefit as well is when they register. They can submit a topic or a request for a topic as well. Might be something they want to talk about. Yeah, it could be. Supplier pricing has been a big topic. They've all been talking about and debating lately and lead times. But networking is really, really powerful and different niches because we're not all competitors. I mean we got competitors coming together. But let's not forget there are plenty of different niches within this industry. And these types of networking, these groups, they enable builders to refer each other as well as trades and suppliers that can be recommended as well. And most importantly, you know, like I saying earlier, we can learn from other people's experience because in this industry you cannot afford to learn from your mistakes because you will run out of money before you, you learn all the things you, you need to learn. You have got to learn from other people's experiences.

That's a really good point. You got to find your people because let's remember the typical journey of any building company owner as well. How you got to where you are today and especially to transform and move into being a professional builder. That's a massive transformation. And very often, very, very often you have outgrown the people you've grown up with, you've worked with for the last 5, 10, 15, 20 years as well. So networking is so important to just find your people, find other people that are like minded, who want to grow, who have bigger goals, just like you, who want more in your life. Because it's very, very rare that you know the people you've known for 10, 20, however many years moving at the same pace or even just in the same direction as you, you.

Yeah, let's be honest, guys as well, builders, you love talking to other builders and listening to other builders. Be honest about that. Whenever we meet up with builders at our live events. And yeah, they might say that they listen to this podcast. What's your favorite structure? You know, what episodes you like the best? I like listening to other builders stories. So, yeah, they mentioned they love listening to Andy as well, but. And of course, Sky. But yeah, the. The number one thing is always, yeah, love the builders stories.

Now, what is the legacy you want to leave for the builders long term?

I think it's. It's just being we are stronger together. We want to build those strong local communities of professional builders. We really do want to be able to change the culture of the residential construction industry to focus on connection, to focus on collaboration and improvement, rather than secrecy, competition, and keeping it very isolated. That would be the biggest thing changing the whole culture. And it's our mission at apb, you know, our mission is to improve the whole residential construction industry for both builders and consumers. We do that through working with builders, and this is a wonderful initiative that we could get behind to just localize it for everybody.

Now, in a time of digital clutter and technology and social media, do you think that builders today are more connected or isolated?

I think like all of us, they're more isolated. You know, we theoretically, you know, FastTube and new book is there to connect us more. But I think we all know truthfully, you know, a decade into the experiment or more, it's actually created a place that people can kind of hide away even more and put up this Persona that's not real. So the truth is, you know, builders start out as people, strange as that may sound to some people. So they're facing that level of isolation, and then this is a very unique industry. It brings with it potential problems and stresses and situations that no other industry ever has to deal with. And because of that, it isolates even further. So, you know, ignoring the fact that, you know, for the last three years, up until the end of 2022, Covid and all of those things, there's inflation, all of those are happening to everybody. But then there's a whole bunch of other things that are happening to build us. And the danger is that it's easy to withdraw. So in terms of isolation, we certainly have not seen that builders are more connected. And absolutely, that is the purpose of our chapters, is to help builders come out of that isolation and become genuinely more connected, skin to skin, not pixel to pixel.

I think right now, we've never seen a moment in time where so many builders are just feeling completely burnt out and exhausted. And it's not surprising with what they've gone through over the past two and a half years with the COVID hitting and then the surge in work and then all the extra work that's gone on behind the scenes for no extra money. With all this constant rescheduling, resourcing, trying to get subcontractors on site, it's been probably triple the work work for the same amount of money. It's been absolutely exhausting for builders and they are just mentally and physically burnt out right now. So yeah, now more than ever. Yeah, these guys need all the support they can get.

I guess my final question is I'm assuming we'll have the link to join the chapters with the show notes, I guess for this episode.

Definitely. We'll make sure there's some decent information inside the show notes just so you can read a little bit more about out what they are, what to expect, a little bit more information, everything we've covered here today and definitely a link where you can register for a chapter in your area or certainly near you.

Well, Sky, Russ and Andy, thank you so much for being here today and sharing with us a wonderful initiative and I look forward to seeing this grow worldwide.

Thanks.

Thanks Bosco.

Hey, thanks guys.

Cheers, Russ.

Cheers. Thank you for listening. Remember to subscribe to Professional Builder Secrets on your favorite podcast platform and leave a review. To learn more about how the systems at the association of Professional Builders can help you grow your building company, visit associationofprofessionalbuilders.com See you next time.