85. Working With Family With Russ and Sky

What do you think about having a non family member as a partner in the business?

I'd be very nervous if I was a shareholder in the business with, with two family members because at the end of the day, blood is thicker than water and yeah, it probably won't end well.

Get a business coach then. Welcome to Professional Builder's Secrets, the podcast for building company owners wanting to grow safely and securely. I'm your host, Will Blunt and today I'm joined by the co founders of the association of Professional Builders, Russ Stevens and Sky Colliday. Russ, sky, welcome to the show today.

Hey, thanks Will.

Hey Will, how you doing?

Very well, very well. Great to have you on. Today we're talking about working with family, which is a very interesting topic in the building industry. So do you want to kick us off? Sky, how common is it to work with family in the building industry?

I would say of all industries it is so common. I would say it's one of the top industries that are predominantly family owned businesses. And I think it's because of how you can get into this business as a company. A lot of the time companies have been handed down generations. It's something that you saw your parents do or your brothers do and it's very much something that you can get born into. So I think it's very common from that perspective. But then, and with a lot of small businesses you see this, it becomes a big family affair. You know, you can get your spouse involved, you get your brothers involved, you can get your children involved. And so you just build your business from there because you, you want to be able to provide from your, for your family. So you start involving them in a lot of ways.

Ross, do you have an idea of how many, like a percentage of APB members a family run?

Yeah, we haven't got any data on that, interestingly enough, but if I had to hazard a guess, I'd probably say it's around about 80% where we're seeing predominantly it's the husband and wife team and generally, but not always they will split the roles up where typically the husband is the builder with the builder's license, so he's managing the on site stuff. Whereas the wife partner would typically look after the, the bookkeeping, the marketing and, and run the office. So it's a good separation of roles and, and a good way that these teams work together in, in larger businesses we can see that there becomes a point where typically one of the partners, you know, would, would drop out. So it tends to be in the, the, the sub 10 million. I would say that we see these teams working really well. But another interesting point is we also see some excellent building companies run by women, which is getting more and more common. And it's fantastic to see because got to be honest here, the women have all the skills because they've got those admin skills, but they've also got the building skills as well. So they run very, very good building companies.

And sky. What else? What other types of family run businesses are there? Obviously that's the spouse one. Are there others as well?

Definitely there are. I'd say working with a spouse is the number one kind of relationship you end up seeing in a building company. But we have a lot of members and come across a lot of different building companies that are multi generational. So maybe it was somebody's grandfather who started the building company and passed it on to their son who wants to pass it on to their son. So lots of generations seen family businesses that involve all the brothers. So maybe one brother created a building company and then they start employing a lot of their siblings. And that's a whole other relationship as well. Because you might not be in partnership and I think that's a huge thing as well. Maybe you're not in partnership with your family, but you can start then employing a lot of your family members. So we've seen that a lot. And then you can start employing maybe not your direct sibling, but your brother in law, your sister in law. And we've seen a lot of that as well and a lot of these. And we say we've seen it. It's because we've end up having to coach our members or clients through situations from working with your spouse to working with siblings or, you know, kids or parents or whatever it needs to be. Because there can be, when you involve family, a lot of friction as well. Because there are so many different interpersonal dynamics that you need to account for. It's not just a cut and dry business anymore. You know, you're involving personal relationships and it just gets very murky with different age brackets or who's older. Or maybe it's the youngest brother who created the building company, but is employing their three older brothers. They become very, very interesting dynamics and I think they're the ones that we tend to hear about most because we end up having to coach them through a particular situation or work with them. But that said, there are some phenomenal family created and family made building companies. It's a journ and it's a process.

I think as a general rule, the more of These, these components, family members you introduce to a business, the more potential there is for conflict. But also another dynamic to be aware of is when you start introducing, like sky said, you know, you might have, like brothers, siblings, working in a business. Once they start introducing partners as well, that is something we see that can bring a lot more conflict into those relationships as well. So it's certainly. Yeah, it can be a bit of a minefield, this whole working with family.

I'd probably also say that you've got the working with family side, but what we at APB would even put in the same basket is working with just another business partner. Because if you go into business with someone, that's as good as another marriage. If you're already married to someone, you have a second marriage because you now have a business partner, and you will go through very, very similar struggles, wins. But a lot of other obstacles you have to overcome. Even with just having a business partner, you didn't grow up with them. Maybe you're not best friends, you're in business with someone, you're in partnership with them. That's another marriage. Suddenly you're working with family all over again.

Yeah.

It really just adds to the stress of life, doesn't it, when you've. You're working a business together as well.

Yeah. And that's not to say it's all bad. Just trying to give a very. Like, I wonder if enough people talk about this, because I think especially when it comes to family, people talk about like, oh, what's it like even with us? Right. What's it like working? You know, we're father, daughter, and I think a lot of people always expect. Yeah, it's amazing. And so if you're working with your brother or your spouse as well, it's like, yeah, it's great. No, we can be able to talk and be like, look, it's, you know, there are, there are definite struggles, like anything. But here's what we do to move forward. And let's just be like, very honest, because this is a huge, hugely common scenario in this industry. And if we can talk about it a lot more and talk about how we can work through maybe a little bit of tension, a little bit of friction, we can operate way better building companies.

Yeah, that's interesting. Just taking a step back for a second. What are some of those challenges that family run building businesses face? Like, with some examples, if you've got some.

I think familiarity is probably one of the biggest challenges that faces family members. Because, you know, when you're family, you have that close relationship you have, that level of familiarity that you don't have maybe with employees. And that can be a good thing and a bad thing. You know, there's a. There's a lot of pluses for that. It makes it, you know, a lot easier to, you know, to discuss things quite openly and understand where the other person's coming from. But it can also lead to a perception of content. Maybe we don't give the family member the. The respect they deserve, you know, in terms of explaining a situation. Situation. So, yeah, and I guess we've all heard that expression as well. Familiarity, you know, leads to contempt. So that's probably one that I would outline as being a challenge. Think some others could apply to family or even partnerships that sky touched on. One is expectations. It doesn't matter if you're family or you're in business with someone else. Do you have the same expectations about what this business is going to do in the future? Because those expectations will change as the business grows, and that's something that catches out a lot of relationships. I think you might start off with a shared vision, but as things scale up, people have different priorities. And I think it's good to be aware of that before you embark on the journey because things will change and that can lead to conflict, which really underlines the importance of having a shareholders agreement in place so that everyone's on the same page. You could have an exit plan in there for one of the shareholders or an exit plan for the whole company. But having. Having that written down is. Is critically important, I think, in. In any business. But yeah, yeah, especially in family businesses.

I think that's huge. Another challenge that I think you'll find and, and a lot of people will put their hand up to is a huge challenge you could have in your own building company if you are working with family, is how does that affect the rest of your team and employees? Because especially if you start really small and it's just family and you start hiring external people who are not in the family and they start coming in, you need to really watch yourself and how you're actually running a proper business. It's no longer just, you know, it's all the family getting together. We're doing this. It's a little bit more casual. No, you're actually operating a business. And I think when you're in business, you need to have that clear line. Russ has already talked about it in terms of expectations, but you need clear boundaries and you need very clear position descriptions and KPIs and everyone should be playing their position. So when you start hiring and really building and growing a team, really like, you know, it depends how big you want to grow your building company. But you will have external staff members outnumber the amount of family members. And so you want to be very conscious that, that you're not going to be accused of any kind of nepotism and favoritism for family. Yes, you probably created this business to look after your family to an extent, but you're not really going to retain incredible employees if, you know, your kid or your son gets all this preferential treatment. They get all these perks and benefits and they don't do anything. They get, you know, everything possible that's not going to cause anyone to work harder or stay at your company.

You know, it's a really good point. You know, salaries have got to be at market rates, and all too often we see salaries inflated because they're family. Yeah, that's just not right. You know, the salary. Even if you. You're the only family member in your business and the only shareholder, you should still be drawing a market salary. Very important to get your fixed expenses accurate. But the effect of not doing that correctly when you have other employees and multiple family members, like sky says, that can have an adverse effect on the entire team, as can promotions. I mean, you don't want to promote someone simply because they're related. It's got to be on merit because the damage you're doing to the rest of the team who will just not see any opportunity for growth and will you lose your best people? So, yeah, I think they're really important points to be aware of.

It also doesn't do your family member that you're trying to help out. It doesn't do them any good if they don't have to work for anything and you just promote them and it's all because they're family. You're not even actually helping them. Maybe in your mind you're thinking, I'm, I'm helping them. I'm doing this for them. It's for their future. You know, this is your kid who just got out of school, and you're putting them on the fast track and you're doing everything for them. Are they really learning the skills that they need to learn so that, say you did want them to take over the company one day. Are they going to have the respect from the team? Can they actually be a leader? Are they going to be able to run this ship as tightly as maybe you can? Maybe, maybe you can. Maybe you Can't. Maybe it takes a village, but you're not doing that family member any service by doing that. You need them to apply for positions just like anyone else. You need them to earn their way, earn respect from team, actually show the fact that they are a leader and really bring them through that way. Now, there is a line, obviously, because maybe they are still a family member. So maybe they do get a little bit more mentoring from you because it's at home. It's, you know, you've got that familial relationship and that's still okay because they're still a family member. But you cannot, you cannot let them skip the line when it comes to the rest of the building company. And I know this is a really unpopular opinion, certainly with some builders that we've spoken to in the past. But you cannot just let people come on in, give them things like equity and shareholding in the company for nothing because then that just breeds a sense of entitlement and you need people to be able to earn their way through into your building company.

I think if you manage the other part of the process correctly in terms of their position in the company, I don't think the shareholding should matter too much because a shareholder doesn't have any real say in the company other than voting on appointing directors who run the company. So I take your point. It can be perceived, maybe, and it really does depend how that person acts with their shareholding. But really I would say in terms of, you know, having family members in. Yeah. Rather than like giving them inflated salary, you can give them a shareholding. You know, that's probably, you know, if you want to reward them and have them, you know, have that extra chunk because that doesn't influence how that company's run directly.

However, it can influence attitude because that's where I was going this with the amount of building companies we have seen where the entitlement of the second generation coming through, that this is their company and they're going to get well, that's.

What happens, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. All of a sudden, well, I'm your boss now and I guess, yeah, it's a good point because if you are going to do that, you've got to make it clear that this shareholding does not entitle you to manage the rest of the team.

Well, I've also. Do you remember, obviously not going to talk about specifics or names or anything, but do you remember this one company that was coming through and the sun kept talking about all this is my company like you know, I'm going to get it all. And, you know, by the time they were going through mentoring, they were tightening up the whole company. Everything, all the systems were getting better, the profitability was going up, and the son was like, well, this is good. Like, I'm going to get it in the best shape. It's going to be the most profitable. And I'm fairly certain the dad had absolutely no intention of giving this company to the son. Absolutely none. But he egged him on and led him to believe it the whole time. And that in itself is bad. We have got to get communication a lot clearer. So it's. All those expectations are managed and you know your path, you know your way forward. Don't. Don't promise people things and then don't deliver because that's going to cause even more tension and friction at a worse family dynamic. That's a problem now. You're causing havoc in a family.

It's. And it's quite common as well. Maybe it's an expectation when a younger generation comes in that they will take it over. And it's just like Scott, it's never been made clear. But I've. I've also seen a lot of examples where it's been implied and I think implied probably at the time with the best intentions, but the actual reality of handing it over. Yeah, opinions change over time and again. This is where it's very, very good to have these agreements in place and set out. I've also seen the reverse happen. Yeah, I've seen a lot of examples of this over the years where the younger generation comes in and the person that started the company has an overinflated opinion on the value of that business. I mean, in a lot of cases, these building companies are not as valuable as the owner thinks they are. And this is where they need an outside valuation to really understand where the true value is in the building company. It's in having it systemized, all the procedure manuals in place, and having it operating and functioning without you having to be there. But a lot of these companies aren't set up that way, which means they have very little value. Yet there's still a perception by the owner that they're handing something down of massive value. And what they're doing is they're actually handing down a big liability. And I've seen some horrendous deals where the younger generation has taken on a massive liability, not necessarily in terms of. Of debt, but in terms of the perception of what's owed. And that could be where the original owner continues to draw a huge salary even though they're no longer working in the business. That's simply not fair. That can't be allowed to happen. And that again is confusing salary with shareholding. As a shareholder, if they wanted to remain a shareholder, that's fine. They draw a dividend, which means they take a percentage of net profit. But you can't. That's like being a preferred shareholder. And that's simply not fair.

And this is where it gets hard, right, because a lot of people and certainly a lot of members have come up with the argument. But they're, they're family. Like, you know, I've got to take care of them or this or that. That's fine. Like we're not being cold hearted, heartless people here. But there is a line with your business. Like your building company, make no mistake, is still a business. And especially if you employ other people. Why are you going to jeopardize their security of having a job and how they are getting paid by you trying to look after your parents? You can do that. You can do everything you want to do, but that does not come out of the business. You run your business like a business and you can do whatever you want for your parents or pay them back or whatever. But yeah, we've seen huge amounts be paid to buy a building company off of a sibling or off of a parent. And it kind of just feels like they were steamrolled into that particular number. But no merit on that figure that they had to pay absolutely none. But it was almost like out of a sense of guilt, like, well, you know, they started it, they've done all this work. They need to have something to show for it. That's not really how the negotiation works. You couldn't sell it to anyone else for that figure.

You spoke about preferential treatment for family members. But can it go the other way as well where you're almost treating them more harsh than the regular employees?

Yes, I've seen that tenfold with so many builders. You have seen it because I think some people naturally get so scared that they're going to be perceived like they're giving their spouse or brother or whatever family member preferential treatment that they don't communicate at all to them because, well, you should know that, like you're, you know, you're right here. And yet it definitely can go the other way.

So you've amplified what the challenges are for family businesses. But what implications does that have on the business and on the individuals personally?

Well, I think it can have a demoralizing effect on the individuals that over time their passion and their hopes for the business can gradually get eroded, which is a shame. And obviously I think as well, when you, if it leads to tension, then that's going to have an adverse effect on all the team members as well. Because you know, it's going to make a very awkward workplace when, when there's tension between family members. People don't really want to be hanging around in that kind of environment. So you end up losing your best people. And the kind of people that you bring in and stick around are not the kind of people that going to be driving the, the business forward. So that ultimately the, the business is, is going to suffer, the profitability is going to suffer. So everyone's going to suffer in that respect as well.

It also just destroys families. Like think of how many businesses have destroyed marriages. And then you got to think of, well, if any other family members are involved, it can seriously destroy a family. And at the end of the day, you just got to bring it all the way back to why are you doing this? And you, you know, it probably wasn't the immediate reason you started your building company, because we've talked about this a lot. A lot of, a lot of people end up falling into doing it. But there comes a point where you were working this hard for your family and unfortunately, if you don't really monitor what you're doing and make a conscious effort and put the right systems in place on how you're going to work with your family, it can destroy your family. And that is really heartbreaking. Yeah. What we've seen, it's, it's, it's unacceptable really, of what can happen to a family.

Yeah. I think one of the most common ones as well is where multiple siblings are involved and, and then you end up with families not talking to each other. It's. Yeah, it's incredibly sad to see.

So, okay, like that's the problem. They're the implications of the problem. What advice would you give to owners of home building companies who are working with their family?

Well, I think that probably depends on what the type of relationship is in terms of a spouse, for instance. I think it's good to understand what are the goals of both parties because maybe one is happy to do it, to work in the business for a certain period of time in order to achieve a better future, but there might be a point in time at which they want to exit. So it's good to be very clear on that from the start and have that plan in place and then executed. And conversely, they might have a passion to grow with the business and then might feel like they're being forced out. So again, that plan has got to be in place and be very clear because it's simply not fair to have two people work so hard together to create something, think, and then one effectively being turfed out. When siblings are coming into the business, I think the agreement, the expectations, got to be documented out. It's got to be very, very clear. And you don't have to have the final solution all figured out because things change and who knows how well this person is going to do. But at that moment in time, there should be a clear idea of what both parties are looking to achieve and get that written down and documented. And then as part of the regular appraisals, the six monthly appraisals, which, as awkward as that might sound, and as awkward as it might even feel, the first few times you do it, you have to do these appraisals. You know, if you're a husband and wife team, you've got to do appraisals on each other. If you've got siblings in the business, you do appraisals on each other. If you're bringing in a younger generation, you've still got to do those appraisals. Very important. And that's the point at which you can review that agreement and adapt and amend it. It doesn't have to be fixed and set in stone, can be adapted. If you're both agreeing to adapt it, that's just fine. So, yeah, I guess it's really, in some ways, it's no different to managing clients for builders. You know, you've got to set those expectations, manage those expectations as you go along.

I think the point of them, like you do with your employees, right, A job performance review appraisal, the point of them is to get on the same page so no one's mismatched in expectations. Do you think you're better at something that you're not? Or maybe you're not as good at something or whatever it needs to be. You get to come to the table and really understand where you're sitting on each other's expectations. And then you get to have your remuneration meeting as well so that it doesn't get out of control, it doesn't get inflated. But I think, number one, especially as the owner of a building company and you start employing family or you're in business with family, you got to check your ego at the door because you wouldn't have such a huge ego with other employees. You know, you're working as a team, so you need to treat your team members and your family members with respect. Not coming from a condescending, you know, dictatorship. You still need to be the best leader possible, and there's just a different personal relationship behind that particular team member. And that will influence how well you can do your performance reviews with your family members as well. Because it's coming from a place of respect, not a dictatorship. This is what I think, and I'm now correct.

I think one of the most important things you can do as well, if you. Well, in any business, but especially in a family business, it's absolutely crucial. You've got to have that third party involved. Typically it's a coach, but it's so, so important. As soon as sky, myself and Linda, my wife, Sky's mother, started working together, then the first thing we did was appoint a coach. Because if nothing else, we needed that third party influence, that sounding board, someone that could keep us all in check and accountable. And I can remember a lot of times it was actually Kevin Lovewell that we worked with all those years ago. Great guy. He now advises, he's a business broker, so he sells companies now. But he was very, very good at dealing with that family dynam, holding us all accountable. You know, if there was something I wanted to do, you know, I just knew this was going to work. He would make me justify and explain to everyone why it was a good idea and if everyone wasn't on board, it wasn't going to happen. He was very clear about that. So, yeah, that, that can be difficult, especially I guess, if you've been running a building company for years and now you're bringing on a sibling, you probably a sibling, you know, a younger generation, you probably don't want a third, you know, kind of challenging you in that way. But it's a good thing, you know, it's, it's good for the company and it ultimately it's going to be the best thing for your relationship as well.

And I think that's hugely important because that's a, that's a. Another hugely different dynamic. That's being in a partnership with someone that's younger than you that you raised, that, you know, you have that authority sort of complex because you're the parent suddenly. And so you need to have that, that third party bringing you through, checking everyone again. It's not to have anyone on anyone's particular side, but everyone getting checked. A huge thing, though, that every single business should have, and especially a family business should have the ability to set boundaries, like very clear hardline boundaries and very clear rules, because you have a work relationship and you have a business working relationship, but then you have a family relationship. And again, it's coming back to what are you building this company for? What are you building your business for if it's not for your family and your life at the end of the day? And if you are destroying your family and your relationships in the process of creating a successful business? It's not worth it. And it's not. We're not saying it's not worth it in terms of you just may as well leave the company and shut it down. It's. That's not the point. It's fix it, do better. Let's create a far better working relationship and actually actively work on your personal, familial relationships outside of work as well. So that there is respect in both sides, like both sides of the coin. I don't know.

If you live together as well as work together, then yeah, that is something you've got to be very, very aware of. That work inevitably will come up in personal time. And yeah, and there can be a good time. That could be a good thing sometimes. But, you know, sometimes both parties don't want to talk about work at the same time. And yeah, you need that break and that space. And, and yeah, you might be have something burning on your mind that you feel is important, but you have to respect the other person that maybe they, they're enjoying some downtime, they don't want to be reminded about work. And, and that's what comes, comes down to what sky was saying about, about setting boundaries. Be very clear. What boundaries are you going to set? We not going to talk about work during these hours? Is there a gray period? We're not going to touch on it during the weekend. We're going to completely switch off for it. And if that's what you both agree, you have to adhere to it because it's simply not fair on the other person to just expect them to respond to a work question out of work.

Hours, but also as well think about all your other family members because this, you know, without bringing too many examples of us, but it's, it's just sort of good being able to draw on the fact that this is a family relationship still. There's myself, Russ and obviously Linda, all involved in a business. I have a sibling, a brother. So when we would have family dinners or meet up as a family, how excluding is it to talk about work and a business and a company that we all have and are all involved in, and he cannot participate in anything or have any input. That's just alienating. And suddenly that's not operating as a family. That's just like having a board meeting with someone watching. It's. That's not the point. So you need to be very cognizant of who else is around. And like Russ has said, if you've got rules, like you do not talk about work, out of business hours or between these certain time slots or whatever it might be, maybe there's something huge happening because, you know, we also get it. There could be monumental things happening and things are just on your mind and you do just want to talk about something. The best advice we can give is just ask permission prior. Because just because you're having a hard time with something or having a bad day or whatever it may be, doesn't mean you have the right to dump all of your problems on that other family member outside of work. You would never call a staff member on a Saturday morning to just vent. You wouldn't dream of doing it. So why are you doing it to your spouse? Why are you doing it to your sibling or whatever it needs to be? If it's like, you know what? I'm really struggling. I didn't sleep all night last night because something's been on my mind. It is to do with work, though. I would love to be able to talk about it, but I know we've got a lot going on today. Can we talk about it tomorrow or whatever, or Monday maybe? They're like, you know what? Something's on my mind too, and you have that permission to get into it. But don't just dump. Don't just do that, because that's not going to help anyone's mindset or relationships.

No, that, that, that is a. A great tip. And yeah, there's been instances where, you know, sometimes my wife Linda might raise something and I'm like, yeah, lay it on me. I'm. I got a bit of spare bandwidth here. Give me the problems, I'll. I'll jump in and solve it. Yeah, I'll give you the solution. But there's other times where, like, I really don't want to know. It's like, yeah, I don't care. Like, the place could be burning down. I just don't want to hear it. It's Saturday.

You spoke about coaches. What do you think about having a non family member as a partner in the business to kind of create that different Dynamic.

A non family member as a partner, like a business partner.

Yeah. So for example, if you had two siblings and that, then a non family member as well or you know, the spouse. The spouses and then a non family member rather than having an external coach.

Well, that's a, that's a lot of people involved in a company suddenly. So that's very stressful having that many shareholders or people involved. But I do. Well, we do not think that a business partner is a substitute for a business coach. They are completely different things. Even if someone has a lot to offer and bring to the table and they come involved in a company, that is not a substitute for getting a third party business coach or mentor or you know, bottom line mediator, that you can get involved. Because even if someone comes with so much experience and so much all of this or that, and they're amazing, there is no one person in this world that doesn't have a blind spot. So you need to be able to think very clearly about ideas or where you're headed with the building company or how even you're running it day to day. And that's what a coach's perspective can provide for you. They challenge you. Like Russ was saying before, just because you have an idea and you know it's going to be so amazing doesn't mean that everyone else should just say yes to you. It's about demonstrating why you think so. Let people challenge you, try and break the solution before you put it in place. And that's a huge component that a coach can bring to the running of your building company.

So you will. You were talking there about three shareholders. Were you two being siblings in this example and one external. Was that, was that the example you were describing?

I was more trying to understand if there is an opportunity to break up the family dynamic by having someone else with, you know, in the business who's a partner. For example, maybe it's a multi generational family business and the son or daughter is coming through to work. And by having two partners who in the business already, one being a family member, one not being a family member, that might create a different dynamic than, you know, just having the family members as the ones that run the business.

Certainly create a different dynamic. Depends on the shareholder breakdown. I'd be very nervous if I was a shareholder in the business with two family members because at the end of the day, blood is thicker than water and yeah, it probably won't end well.

Fair enough, fair enough. Get a business coach then. So is there any other advice you'd like to give the listeners today on. On working with family and how they can deal with all those challenges we spoke about.

Yeah, I would say it's a fantastic opportunity, especially from my perspective. In my experience, the opportunity to work with my daughter on a daily basis when in a normal situation we wouldn't have this close relationship. It would be naturally more. More. More distant. As you know, people grow up. So to have this opportunity to spend so much time with sky and working with sky is. Is just phenomenal. I wouldn't swap it for anything at all.

I think that might be a nice way to wrap it up. That was. Unless, sky, you want to say something as sentimental.

The irony was I wasn't going to say anything sentimental. My last bit was don't be afraid to go the other way. Because, you know, when we were talking about, you don't do someone any favors when you can just make them not work for anything and you just bring them up and up and up in the company. That doesn't do anyone any favors. Don't be afraid to go the other way. You can sever business relationships with family, especially if they work for you and they're not performing, you can get rid of them. And I think it's just giving people that confidence that you're not stuck with them just because they're family. They are family members, but they do not have to be in your building company. And you do not have to feel like you have to employ everyone as well. That is not your responsibility. It's about vacancies. It's about do they have the skills, can they fit in culturally? Do not feel like you have to bring everyone on for the ride from your family and that if they're not performing, you still have to keep them. As long as you can treat everyone with respect and run your company in a respectful way, you can get rid of them. And we've seen it, seen a lot of people sack their family members and you can move on. It can be a little bit. It high tension initially, but you can get over it. And it's probably for the best because, you know, when you let anyone go in your company, you are setting them free. You're sending them onto greener pastures. Maybe they're wonderful people and they're great at what they do, just not here. So let them go and let them do what they need to do.

I started out working out for my father at 16 and at 19 he sacked me. It works out for the best in the end.

How long did you not talk to him for?

Russia it was fine. He did it very well, actually. He made me believe it was my decision and I was going on to green pastures. And it was only a few years later, on reflection, I realized I'd been sacked.

Manipulation.

Yeah. I feel like that's a whole topic in itself. Sucking family members that we probably don't want to get into today.

No. But look, to summarize, I think it's. Yeah. Working with family, it can be very difficult. It can be a very different experience from hiring any other staff member or working with any other staff member. Working with family, you've got that sense of familiarity that we started with. But I have to agree. I don't think there would be anyone else that I would go into business with knowing that it is a family member, especially being Russ. That's what makes our business work. It's our dynamic together. So I definitely wouldn't change anything. It's the best thing we've ever done.

Awesome. Well, Russ and Sky, thanks so much for coming on the show today. I've learned a ton about working with family. You've got a lot of experience yourself, obviously, but APB members, almost 80% of APB members are family run businesses as well. The big takeaways for me were setting expectations, documenting your expectations, communicating regularly, and just having boundaries with work so that you can, you know, have. Have a social and family life outside of work, too. But a huge thank you to our listeners as well, wherever you are in the world. If you like the show, please subscribe on the platform of choice and leave us a review if you. If you enjoyed the show today, but until next time, have a great day.