94. End To End Client Experience With Felipe Freig

Oh, we had a client that literally went to tears when we sent that email and says, hey, your kitchen is not quite done yet, but we know you're excited and you probably haven't had a good meal in a long time. So here's a gift card to the keg, which is a steakhouse here in. In Vancouver. Right. And she calls, she goes, oh, my God, this is so great. We're exhausted and we haven't had a good meal. I mean, that little thing that you just did just went miles. Right? So through automation, processes and client experience, you can really take care of your clients.

Welcome to Professional Builders Secrets, the podcast for building company owners wanting to grow safely and securely. I'm your host, Will Blunt, and today I'm joined by Felipe Frag. Felipe is the CEO at Versa Homes in British Columbia, Canada. Welcome to the show, Felipe.

How you doing? Thank you for having me.

Yeah, I'm doing really well. How are you doing?

Doing really good. The sun's shining here in Vancouver and finally the rain's gone, so we're all pretty happy around here.

Oh, that's cool. That's cool. It's a beautiful part of the world, Vancouver. I actually got married in Vancouver, believe it or not.

Oh, wow, Nice. Right on. Whereabouts?

I got married on Vancouver island, actually. Just not far from Victoria. Yeah, yeah, up in the. Up in the mountains there was beautiful.

Yeah, Victoria is awesome.

Yeah. So to kick start things, can you tell us a little bit about who you are? Who is Felipe Frag?

Well, just a regular Joe trying to do construction, of course. I own Versa Homes here in Vancouver. You know, I've been doing it for now 20 years and, you know, just trying to be a good builder.

Okay. Okay, cool. But I know there is a little bit more of a backstory than that, so could you go into some more details for me? What happened prior to Versa Homes?

Well, I guess, you know, prior to construction, actually, in between construction, I should say, I used to play music. I was in a band called Jet Black Stare. We were touring around North America quite a bit. We had a good record deal and had some fun. And then a couple years later, I decided to get back into construction and start a building company. Prior to that, I was a tile setter. So I was setting tile and was one of the trades, essentially, which evolved into, like, little things like, you know, renovating a bathroom and then doing a little kitchen or doing it right here or there, which is why it intrigued me to just be a full contractor, you know, and went for it after I had a Little accident and cut my arm, which I couldn't use as much as I used to hit the artery. And it was a bit of a disaster, but really bad thing turned into a great thing because it forced me to manage my business and. And ever since I did that, it just skyrocketed.

Yeah, right. I mean, that must be a hard thing, you know, in terms of getting a physical injury as a builder. And that's kind of your trade, so.

Correct. Yeah. I mean, again, it's not really a bad thing because as you know, most of us contractors are really good on the tools. You know, we think that nobody else can do our job because we do it the best. But when you hurt yourself and you're forced to do it, you quickly find out that once you start managing your business and hiring other trades that you're. Your jobs start looking a lot better than when you did them yourself. You know, you can focus on managing your company. Right?

Yeah, I think that's true to a certain extent. You know, no one else can have that same attention to detail as you in the business.

Right, right.

But at a certain point, I guess you need to make a decision whether or not you're happy to be on the tools all the time or you actually want to grow your business. Yeah.

And you can choose to do that. You can be on the tools, but you would have to hire somebody to manage your business because, you know, we're all good trades, but we're not good business people. At some point, I'm lucky that I'm kind of a bit of both. And I was able to lear through the pressure of actually having to manage my business because of my arm. But, you know, managing your business is one of the key things. And, you know, I would suggest that once you learn your craft, if you want to have a really good construction business, is dive into your business and start working on it, not in it.

Yeah, that's great advice for any builders out there. But before we dive into a little bit more about all your building business and everything like that, I want to hear more about Jet Black Stare. So I listened to a few songs before we jumped on and I just wanted to help, like, hear you describe what Jet Black Stare was all about.

Well, we were touring with bands like Puddle of Mud, Shinedown, Three Doors Down, Hinder Stain, all those rock and roll bands that are here in North America. I'm not sure on the Australian side of things you've heard of those bands or not, but they're quite popular.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely very well known around the world.

Yeah. So we were touring with them and you know, we had a good time. It was a great experience. We toured all over North America, you know, met a lot of people and hang out and experience that big show that you're always dreaming to play. You know, we had anywhere between, you know, 15,000 and 20,000 people a night when we were playing. And it was an exciting time, but it did not pay the bills.

So I'm guessing you play guitar, judging by what's in the background there.

Yes.

Very cool.

I learned on YouTube.

Oh really? I remember I tried to teach myself guitar on YouTube once and I, I learned a, I learned Wonderwall by Oasis. But that was, yeah, it was very short lived.

Good campfire songs for sure.

It was much, much more challenging than I ever expected.

Yeah, for sure. I mean it's, it's like anything, right? You put your, your effort into it and it just comes out fine, you know.

So are there any similarities between playing in a rock band and being a builder?

I would say kind of yes. On the marketing side of things, actually I did learn a lot in music because I've been playing music since I was 18 in bands. And a lot of the marketing and promoting that you do, I actually brought it into the construction world and really promoted my company like we used to promote our band. And because you're talking to so many people on the road, like fans or radio stations, you really learn how to communicate with just about anyone. And I think that, that really taught me. Networking and networking, I believe, is one of the key things in construction to be able to land the jobs that you want to land.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, I guess, from a networking perspective. Yeah, I mean, the bands, you're meeting people all the time when you're going on tour and everything like that. And that's really applicable to the building space, like with suppliers and potential clients and other things.

Right? Yeah, no, I mean it's, it does cross over quite a bit when it comes to marketing and, you know, people skills and, you know, connecting with, with many other people. Right. Essentially when you're selling, you're, you're connecting with your client, right?

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Interesting. You've got to have that personal connection for them to trust you. Right?

Yeah, correct.

So taking it back to the very beginning, how did you, how did you become a builder? Like pre rock band, what was all happening?

Pre rock band. Okay. So yeah, in high school I loved woodworking class and I took it every single year, as many times as I could take it. A year when I was 13 years old, I took it. By the time I hit grade 12, which is kind of your senior years in high school, I had three classes of woodwork, and I loved it. And my teacher, Dan Zaklan, taught me a ton just how to be detailed, how to, you know, how to be a good craftsman. And I just fell in love with it. And when I left high school, just like anybody else, you kind of really don't know what to do. So I kind of got a job at Home Depot, you know, just. Just to be in that industry. And it actually taught me huge things in customer service. Home Depot really shaped the way that we run our business, where you're your client's number one, so you treat all your clients like gold. From then on, I just worked for, like, other companies and in the commercial world, putting railings and high rises. Then eventually I started to tile with a good friend of mine. I was on the road touring. Every time I come back, I go work with him. Then I really started to like it, and I went on my own and started to tile. And, you know, I actually sold my tiling company in 2009 because I got that record deal and we thought we were going to be rock stars.

You were rock stars. You were.

Yeah. Two years later and came back and like, babe, I only got 100 bucks in my bank account. I gotta get back to work. So I had one child and a mortgage on a house and hopped on my work van and just went at it again. Right. And started evolving my business from. From tiling to renovations to full, you know, custom builds now.

Yeah, that's cool. That's a really, like. I really love your journey from, like, where you were to where you are today. And one thing I love the most was, like. Which I read on your website was you spoke about Dan and how he taught you to be very detailed with everything you build from a consumer's perspective. You know, if I wanted someone that I trusted to build a house for me, I would want them to be. I would really want them to be super detailed.

Yeah, I think Dan did a really good job because most of the trades will most likely tell you that I'm a pain in the ass. Not sure if you can see that on here or not, but I really have an eye for detail. Everything bugs me to a point where, like, you know, it's almost neurotic, but everything has to be straight, everything has to be level. Everything has to be well done, you know, as much as possible.

Yeah, I love that.

And he really taught me how to do that. Through all the woodworking projects that I was doing, he would just come to my table all the time and say, no, this needs to be better. You know, look at this, look at that. Your grains need to match, your 45s need to be perfect. So I was striving for that at all times. And, you know, throughout the years in school with Dan Zaklin, he really shaped me to pay attention to all these details. Right. Which is translating into our. Into our homes now.

Cool.

Cool. Yeah.

So that journey from Tyler to builder, can you tell me a bit more about how you made that journey? Was it like all at once or. It was like more of a progressive journey.

You know, if you asked me a long time ago if I was going to be a builder, I would say, I have no idea. But, you know, when. When I was tiling, I really loved tiling because everything was symmetrical. Your lines have to be perfect, your tiles have to be flat, and I enjoy doing it. But then I started to realize that it starts to get a little boring, you know, and I'm like, hey, this bathroom is 50% tile. I could probably renovate the rest of it, you know, And I evolved. My company was called Versa Tile and Bath Solutions. And I was being sneaky, putting Versa with tile being versatile.

Oh, yeah, that's cool.

But the big name was also Versa, and the little writing was like Tile and Bath Solution. So I started renovating bathrooms, started really liking it, and of course, client go, hey, can you do the kitchen? I'm like, oh, boy, I've never done the kitchen. But, yeah, why not? I'll do your kitchen. And eventually got lots of jobs renovating homes. And we. We didn't change the name. It was always Versa, but the tagline was always different. It went from Versatile Bath Versatile and Bath Solutions to Versa Home Renovations. And now after we. We just started doing custom builds, only we call. We call it Versa Platinum Construction. But throughout all this journey, clients would never call it by the name that. It is some reason they always say Versa Homes. Versa Homes. Versa Homes. So we actually adapted the name Versa Homes just from clients always spitting it out that way, even though that wasn't our name.

Yeah, it definitely rolls off the tongue.

Yeah. And so. But, yeah, no, that's. That's the journey of it. I was like, where did Versa come from? I'm like, yeah, that's. That's quite the story there, you know?

Yeah, I mean, it's great to hear. I think all the builders out there, they're kind of going on their own journey. Right. But they can draw inspiration from other people's, you know, history as well.

Right, yeah. And then one thing, too, I've always learned is never, and I have, some builders are going to hate listening to this, but never call your company under your own name because most of the time is not sellable. So if you ever want to sell your company, you know, if it was Philippe's construction, you couldn't sell Felipe's construction without Felipe.

Yeah, that's a great tip, actually. I mean, the value then is put in your name rather than the business. And you can't always be there, you know, doing all the work and coordinating everything.

Correct. Yeah. Yeah. So I always knew that and I always called it, you know, something other than my name. Right.

I guess it's a tricky one, though, because as you mentioned, relationships are so important as well. So there's automatically an association with your name. Right?

It is. You know, I was. I was always good at talking to people and connecting with people. But that's not the only thing you need. After you connect with your people, you have to know how to run your business, how to have processes, how to have, you know, systems in place to make sure that your client is well taken care of. And that's the part that, you know, even though you know how to talk to people and connect with people, you still need to know how to service them and give them all the information possible that they need. Right. During your business.

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So before we dive into more stuff about how you run your business, did you run into any big challenges along the way as you were kind of going through this journey?

You know, there are major challenges I did not have because I had some good people behind me. Like, I had a mentor as well, Bill Swinemer, really, really good friend of mine, almost like a dad to me, and he taught me some things about business, connected me with other builders, different regions of the country, just so they could tell me a bit about building before I started full on, you know, my journey in construction. But there is, if there's anything I could say would be really understand your business, because if you don't know your numbers, if you don't know how to run your business, you're not going to do as well as you think you're doing, because having a lot of jobs and having a job that just make. Makes you a paycheck is really not a business. Right.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, that's. That's kind of the only challenge I Had was, you know, going, hey, how does this guy charge cost plus 10? I don't get it. It doesn't work. I don't understand it. How are they doing it? You know, you ask yourself all these questions and you try different things and you try this and that and you try to understand their process, and you're just hitting brick walls, you know, until you get somebody like Clint and he tells you the secret behind the recipe and you're like, I get it. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. For anyone that's not sure, Clint Best is an executive coach here at the apb. That's who. Who fully base.

Talking about. Yeah, that's right. So, yeah, he's a great guy. I love just. I look forward to every. Every month meeting with him. He's just awesome.

So how do you go about understanding the numbers? Obviously, Clint's been playing a big part in that, but what was, I guess, the way you figured out how to dive into them?

You know, I understood most of the numbers before, so I used to always do a fixed price, just what you want to do if you understand the process of that. But then because of COVID you know, I started to compete against cost plus people, and I said, hey, you know what? I'm going to try Cost plus because most clients are asking me this and, you know, and Covid wasn't the most busy time of year. So we're trying to land other jobs at a cost plus, and it still wasn't working for me. And then I just started scratching my head and I saw APB on Facebook and Instagram and then they reached out to me and got talking them, and I quickly understood that they really knew what they were doing and landed on the APB world. And now I understand how things work. Right. Thanks, Clint.

For anyone out there that's not fully across fixed price contracts versus Cost plus contracts, can you just explain what they are and the differences?

Number one, I always say that a cost plus gets your client involved in financials, where if you as a builder never understood financials and it took you say, two, three years to figure them out, how do you expect your client to look at your financials and understand your cost? All that's going to do is get your client involved throughout the project in financials, and you're just going to end up explaining yourself to them the whole time instead of building a home. Right. So in a fixed price, you're able to, number one, set the expectation for the client and what it's going to cost before you start. They'll never say oh, the builder told me it'd be this much, but he was over by 20%, you know, and they're out of the equation. Now. You can build smoothly, fast. You can set a schedule with a cost plus contract, you can set schedules, but if the client gets too involved, ask you for other quotes because they want to see more. It just slows down your whole process. And we all know that time is money. So if we do a cost plus job, say in a year, and you involve a client and the client pushes it to be a year and a half because of all the work that she's made you do, your profitability is not the same. Right. You made 15% out of a million in, you know, in a year and a half instead of a year, which is a huge difference. Right. So with a fixed price, you're able to fix the price, fix the schedule, and hand over the house on time and create a schedule that's going to work, understand your profitability for that timeframe and know that if you go over that timeframe, then you start to lose on profitability, right?

Yeah, yeah. And that was one thing I really love from your website, from a consumer's perspective. I mean, on budget, on time is really a really compel compelling narrative. But how do you make sure your projects do land on time? Because as you mentioned, you're losing money with overruns as soon as I start happening.

Well, we do it and it takes a lot of effort. So for example, actually on Friday, we handed over a house exactly on the day we told the client a year ago, sorry, eight months ago, it took me eight months to build a house. So how do we do it? Number one is writing a schedule that's cohesive, that everyone can understand. Ask all the trades for how long they're going to take and put it together in the best way possible. Also pre order most of your materials so that they're there on time and not delaying you. And the number one thing that I would say is have a team meeting every week with your staff. So Monday mornings, like today, actually we had a team meeting at 7.30am, which we do every Monday. You talk about everything that needs to happen this week and the following week, and also what happened the prior week, what were the challenges? And then when your whole team is in tune with what has to be done next week or two, and you all review the schedule together, everyone helps to keep it on track. Right. And again, at the end of the day, this, this project that we just handed over was the kitchen people were three weeks Late, but we still handed it over on time. We found ways of, you know, working around some things. Helpful trades, which we've had for years, are super good with us. So they're able to be a little more flexible and we're able to tackle the project right on time.

Yeah, well, that was one question that came to mind as you were, you know, talking through that. Sure, you can have a meeting with your team every week, but how do you make sure your project's on time when you're working with so many third party contractors? I mean, it becomes more challenging, right?

It does, but it doesn't. So basically like, you know, we're going to talk about software soon, but when you have something like buildertrend or Job Tread, which we're using now for a long time, you train your trades and they understand how you work. When you release a schedule and they hit confirm, they totally understand that they are now committed to that date. But the date comes before the job starts. So there's lots of notice for them to show up. And if you follow up throughout the project, just kind of reminding them that, hey, you got this coming up in three weeks, just make sure you're still there, you know, they will show up.

Yeah. And I guess it comes down to having those contractors that you really have a trusting relationship with, doesn't it?

Of course, yeah. And you know, we've had ours for quite a long time and you know, there is the, I'm going to say the 10% out of all contractors that you're always turning over one for one reason or another. So those new ones, sometimes you got to push and pull a bit. But having the same trades all the time really makes the process a lot easier. But if you're continuously changing trades because of price and because of that or this, it's just not going to work. You're creating a disaster for yourself. Keep loyal to your trades. Don't bicker about their price, you know, and just, you know, put it in there and be confident with your client that these are the right trades and then they'll take care of you as well. You pay them, you get, you, you never baker at their price and they'll keep your project running like there's no tomorrow.

Yeah, I love that. You got to look after them as well. So do you ever build in additional time to your schedule just to make sure that you will land it on time though?

100%. We, we. So every building block, like if we're doing excavation, you know, and then we're doing framing and Then we move into cladding and then we move into interior finishes. Each one of those steps, they have what we call grace days, which I'm sure everybody has. So each, each section, say it's a month and a half or two, will add four to five days extra just for like delays and stuff like that, right?

Yeah, I think that's great as well from a consumer's point of view because I mean if you tell them the price is X and it's going to finish on Y, but really you've built in, you know, your margin to that and a couple of weeks of contingency, I mean everyone's happy and I really don't care as the consumer, as long as you're meeting my expectations.

Of course the client, you know what, being clear with the client is key. So I don't know, like if you look at Tesla, for example, Apple has been like this here's my computer, this is what it has and that's the price. You're done. You buy it or not. And guess what, if you buy it, their processes are so great that you'll have it at your home the next day. And it's no different with like, I don't know if you ever bought a Tesla, but I bought a Tesla, traded my car in through their website. No one spoke to me, I just did it all through the website, bought the car, the car came on time. It was an excellent experience of buying. So that's what people want. People don't want a cost plus and uncertainty. They want a fixed price. They want to know what is going to cost, when am I going to be in my house and that it's going to be done correctly. And we need to shape the world of construction that way. The problem is that is a lot of work at the beginning to get that fixed price. But it's less work through construction where most builders don't put the work at the beginning because it's just they're too busy or it's too much work or whatever and they just want to charge a cost plus because I'm sorry to say, but they're not confident on pricing the home right correctly. They think they're going to lose. But if you price it correctly, you're never going to lose, right?

Yeah, I guess it's especially true when you're building those top end beautiful homes, the custom homes that you know, you guys are building as well.

If we, we don't start going into a cost plus unless we go over like 9 million. So if I, if I can Price a home as a fixed price, you know, on the 5, 6, 7, $8 million range, you know, anyone can. Now if it starts to go to 10 to 14 million, that's going to be like over two to three, four years project. So obviously you can't do that. But if you can do a fixed price for your client, I mean, Canada is pretty expensive. I'm not sure about Australia, but your basic, basic home build is probably like a million five right now here. Yeah, you know, if you want a nice big huge home, you're about 5 to 10 million. We're doing one that's going to be 40 million 35,000 square feet. Right. So those kind of projects are long term, so we can't really do a fixed price. But the other ones, you know, it's a lot of work, but way easier in construction. You get to move fast, you have a clear path. You're not waiting for clients to tell you what the floor is, what this is and what that is, you know, and to do that kind of pricing, you do need interior design, not just architecture. So all your plans inside of the home and selections need to be completed before you price it. Right?

Yeah, that makes, makes total sense. While you're talking about the design process or hinting at it, let's dive into the client experience from end to end that you create for people. So can you give me an insight into the process, the experience you create for customers?

Yeah, so. Good question. You know what, it's funny because right now we're applying automation to our systems and our processes. So for example, when we, when a client reaches out through a website or if they reach to us directly, we put them into our automation system. And each step of the way with the client, it really nurtures them and takes care of them. But for us, when they reach out, we connect with them. We see if they're a fit, if their budgets align with what they want to do, and if it's also a project that we want to take on, sometimes the client's just not a fit. But if we decide that the client's a fit and the client decides that we're a fit for them, we move them into architecture. So we send them to our architects, they'll design a house with the architect on us to make sure that the client's budget and needs and wants align. Once we draw the house up, it goes into engineering. And then after engineering, we take them into interior design, which they get to select all the interior finishes, flooring they needed to lay out, all their cabinetry drawings inside of a home, they're all complete. Every wall, elevation, molding, selections, toilet paper height, everything is included on there. Right. And so once everything is in the interior design, then we're able to price it. And once they approve the price and we're good to go, then we start construction. And through the construction process, we got a really cool thing which obviously we all know that automation is the thing that's, you know, up next. But in construction, we always a little bit behind, but we started implementing like, you know, as we move to, say, excavation, automated emails go out, explain the client, what we're doing and why we're doing it. You know, we'll get to the framing stage and we'll say, hey, you're probably, you know, thinking it's going to be a while till you finish your home. How about two tickets to the movies to kill some time, you know, while we build your home? And then, you know, as we get closer, we'll go two tickets to the movie to a restaurant, or, sorry, a gift card to the restaurant while we finish your kitchen. Or near the end, we'll say, hey, here's a gift card to Home Depot, you know, to get yourself some items before you move in. So this automation system is doing all this in the background without us doing it, you know, and it takes care of the client experience, you know, all the way through construction as well.

Yeah, I love that. So it's all those small little touches that are having a difference and making a big impact on the experience.

Oh, we had a client that literally went to tears when we sent that email and says, hey, your kitchen is not quite done yet, but we know you're excited and you probably haven't had a good meal in a long time. So here's a gift card to the Keg, which is a steakhouse here in, in Vancouver. Right. And she also goes, oh, my God, this is so great. We're exhausted and we haven't had a good meal. I mean, that little thing that you just did just went miles. Right. So through automation and processes and client experience, you can really take care of your client.

So at the start of that process, you mentioned qualifying clients. Is that something that the automation is taken care of as well? Are you calling clients? How's that work? Yeah.

So number one, if you were to fill out our form in our website, you're going, you're going to put your name and stuff, and we're actually redoing this whole template that you got to fill out, but it automatically send them a questionnaire they have to fill out, and it also will put them in a queue. And our email says we'll get back to you within 24 hours. Or book the call here, and they can book it. So once we have the call booked, we already have their questionnaire, which is, you know, what type of home you're looking for, how big, what is your budget? And we can kind of tell right away if it aligns or not. Some people are way out of whack. As a matter of fact, most builders know that clients are 80% of the time they're out of whack on price and what it actually costs. So we were able to see if they line up or don't line up. We'll ask them some questions and tell them what really is going to cost them and see if they proceed or not. But we also want to meet them face to face. If the budgets align, we get them in the office. I want to get a feel for the client because we're going to spend two years together. You know, I want to make sure it's a good experience for both of us. So we don't just take any client, even though it might be a good job. As a matter of fact, we're by referral only. That way, you know, when a client is referred to as they already know about us, they, you know, they know what we do, and then we're able to move through the process faster.

Yeah. One thing I do love on the pricing section of your website is that the cost calculator. So it's a great way for you to capture that information in the lead, but also a great way for the consumer to get a feel and for the expectations of what it may cost.

Yeah, so that's a great point. You know, have you ever read a book? They ask, we answer.

I haven't, actually, but I knew you were going to mention that because we spoke about it before.

I think that guy is awesome and he hits all the nails in the head. And, you know, the main question is, like, when you purchase a car and you see a car being advertised and the guy doesn't have the price on it, what's your feeling inside? What are you feeling when you see that? You're like, oh, what's he trying to hide? Like, what's the problem here? Right. And then you feel uneasy. So if you're trying to gain your client's trust, be upfront and tell them what their, their potential cost would be on a home build. I mean, a home build is not like a car where you can nail the price online, but at least they can click around and see what the actual price. Yes, as a matter of fact, yesterday I had a guy fill it out and he wants to meet with me at 7:30 today in a phone call. But he was not very happy what the calculator came out with for pricing. So I said to the client on email, hey, you know, we'd love to meet with you but perhaps maybe a little more research would help you understand the cost of building today. And I'd be happy to meet with you, you know, after you find out a little more about pricing. Right, that I don't want to waste my time, I don't want to waste theirs. So if you're unhappy about what it costs to build a home and he actually sent me these super high end homes, like next level, very high end. And he wasn't. And I'm going, the picture you sent me and what you picked in the calculator are two different things. That's not going to be what the calculator says is actually going to be even more from what you. It's like, I'm like, oh, wait a minute here, let's, let's back up a second, go do some research before you come to us again.

Yeah, there's obviously an education piece there.

I said that in a polite way, of course, but you know, but you know what, at least it cuts down on your time. Your time is valuable. You know, we've all experienced as builders, clients that drag you along the whole process only to tell you at the end of the price is too much money. You know, what I'm trying to do with the pricing calculator and when they meet us is here's your price expectation and if you agree to this price at the beginning, budgetary price and we're able to follow through with design and all that and keep that price and you get to that price at the end of the journey. There is no objection. Right. But if you're way overpriced at the end, then the client is going to object and perhaps go somewhere else. Right. Which we've all seen that happen. But the goal for me is to tell you up front, don't, don't waste your time. This is what your house is going to cost. If you want to proceed, we can proceed. You know, and if that's too much money, let's, let's just not waste anybody's time right now. Right?

Yeah, I like that because you're being up front and everyone knows where they stand.

100%. You know, we've been dragged along for years. As a matter of fact, right now, if a client does agree to the price, we tell them at the beginning we take a retainer, and they don't get that back. If they proceed to construction, we put that retainer credit towards construction. But if we spend six months with them, you know, and we're working on pricing and drawings and all this kind of stuff, and they say no at the end, they don't get it back. We got to get paid for our time.

Right, yeah, that makes sense, because you're charging for that whole design process 100%.

You got to have a retainer, you know, and the retainer gets applied to construction, but they don't get that back till the end, right? Yeah.

And if you're being upfront at the start about the cost of everything, then, you know, that's what they're signing up for anyway. Right.

100%. So, you know, we want people to come and build with us because they know what we do. They know that we'll give them a fixed price. They know that we get them in on time and that we have really good quality and workmanship. Right. And if you're looking for a cheap price, I'm telling you right now, none of that comes with it.

Well, funnily enough, that that exact tactic you're using from a selfish perspective, because you don't want it to, like, unnecessarily waste time and go down too far the path, you know, to waste everyone's time. It actually progresses the sale really beautifully. It's a great sales tactic.

You are so right about that. So here's a little story. If you go to my Instagram, I put on there by referral only. So I got a lot of messages, and hearing through the background, other builders go, who does he think he is? By referral only. How is he just going to take referral only? He's killing his sales, man. The time I put by referral only, my business skyrocketed. Like, it fully skyrocketed. And the people that are coming through the door are not wasting my time. You know, they're just like, holy, how do we get in the door? And how do we, you know, get this guy to build their house? You know, at the moment, we're over $50 million worth of business in the next two and a half years. Right. Think about that. And people thought I was crazy for telling people that I'm by referral only. Yeah.

I'm automatically thinking, if I want a house that you've built because it looks amazing. Who can I connect with to try and get through the door, you know?

Yeah, yeah. And that's. That's kind of what they do. Right. And, and, and it works because, you know what? Like, I seriously don't want to spend two years with. People are not interested. Right. So by referral only. What most builders don't know is that they actually are by referral only without them knowing. Because people buy emotionally.

Yeah.

Unfortunately, they don't buy smartly.

Yeah.

So if somebody's cousin got referred to and they said, hey, yeah, he's a good builder, that new client's going to go with that person because they're comfortable, not because they found everything out about them. It's just because they're comfortable. Right. So essentially, I would say 90% of your business is by referral only. You just. I am saying it because that's the truth. Right?

Yeah. I mean, you need a huge amount of trust there to, you know, to hand over a few million dollars to someone to build a house for you to live in forever. Right.

You know, although people should be smart and giving somebody a couple million dollars based on, like, many things like client referrals and checking your work, talking to past clients and doing that kind of work. But a lot of people give $2 million to somebody they trust because they're a buddy. But what they didn't check is the buddy's work is not that great, but they feel like they trusted them, so they went with them. At the end of the day, I don't know about in Australia, but here ends up to be a bit of an issue with, you know, I hired my buddy, they told me he was great, but it didn't turn out right. So. Yeah. Yeah.

Interesting. That's cool. I mean, really what you're doing is, you know, creating an element of scarcity in your sales process, and that scarcity is attracting more people to your business. But on the flip side, it actually helps you because you're not dealing with the type of leads that are going to waste your time as well. Yeah.

And there's a lot of them, and they're not wasting your time because they want to waste your time. A lot of people just don't know what it costs to build a home or don't understand what the process is. They think that they're just hiring a guy that's quickly going to phone their trades and the trades are going to do the work, and he's really not there. And that's not the case. There's so much stuff that you do in the background and all that kind of stuff. And the services that client actually want, they don't want to pay for it, but the service they want with communication systems, all that it costs money to do. So the price of a good builder is always going to be higher because you have proven processes behind the system. Right.

Yeah. Just quickly, that book you mentioned, they ask you answer is by Marcus Sheridan, I believe is the one. The ones you're. You're talking about.

That's the one. He's awesome. I love that book.

Yeah. Well, we'll include a link to that in the show notes for anyone that wants to put that on their reading list.

Yeah, he's, you know, like, I'm rebuilding my website right now. Hired an automation team out of the USA to automate my whole process. You know, I put the pricing model up because, you know, to be transparent with clients. Oh, man. All I got to tell you is if you don't read that much and you're busy as a builder, buy it as an audible book on Amazon. Hit play on your way to your job sites, you know, every day. And, man, this guy is not boring either. He's funny, he's a good talker, and he'll keep you entertained. But what he says is so true and it really works.

That's a great point, actually. I mean, it's hard for any business owner, especially builders who are working a lot of hours to find the time to read a book. So an audible book is a great way to learn.

Yeah, it's a great way to learn. And you know what? I got to tell you, these podcasts, I wanted to be in one of these podcasts because I started listening to them and man, there's so much good information.

Well, now you're giving up the information.

You know what I'm giving you? I'm happy to give it to people because you know what? As builders, we should help each other and we should put everybody in the same level, in a sense, because building is not easy, it's stressful, and you need to be rewarded for it. Right. And any good information, like the book or the APB podcast and stuff like that, oh, man, I'm telling you, you got to get on them because you're going to learn a lot. That's going to change your company.

Yeah, that's cool. That's cool and great. And thanks for the little promo for the podcast there.

Yeah. Hey, by no means I'm saying it, because I'm on the podcast. I Actually wanted to be in this podcast because it's so good. It's not that I'm cleaning it to promote you. You know, it is a good podcast and I learned a ton.

Well, I guess if someone's got it to this point of the podcast anyway, they're probably pretty brought in anyway.

Yeah, for sure.

So you mentioned a few software tools. I just wanted to loop back and clarify what they were. Which ones are you using?

Well, so let's start with, you know, client experience through building. I used buildertrend for a long time, and it's a great tool. Nothing wrong with it. It just has a few little things that we needed that it doesn't do. And we stumbled across Job Tread, and jobtread is super cool. Has a lot of the features that, you know, buildertrend is missing a bit. Again, buildertrend's really good, but Job Treads, I think, a little more innovative, quick, flexible, you know, we're really enjoying this. And that takes care of my construction. Client experience equals financials for construction. Like, it gives you margins, profitability, job costing, daily logs, scheduling. Same thing as Build a Trend, but it's just a little more robust. It's a newer software. I think they came out in 2018, where build a Trend has been around for years. But this, this job trade is just. I feel like my whole staff loves it even more than Build a Trend. Right. But there is that. And then for our. What do you call it, our client software, like, my brain is just not working right now. CRM. That's it. We use Keep, which is K E A P. And Keep is really good. It allows you to automate all your emails, keep your sales funnel flowing, understand what you got in the funnel, who, what, what part of the process, your clients in scheduling. So links for people to. To schedule you and look at your calendar, keeps track of all your information. You get your own phone number. So in your cell phone, you have your personal cell phone. But then Keep gives you another phone number where you can use in the app. So when people call you for business, you can see the Keep phone ringing. And you know you can split your phone now from personal and business, right? And it tracks everything. All your text messages, your email communication, it tracks everything for you.

Oh, that's really cool. That's really cool. Yeah, I'm pretty sure Keep used to be called infusionsoft a long time ago because I used it in a former life. But one thing I do remember about infusionsoft was it was relatively complex tool. Did you find the same with keep or did you have someone help you set all that automation up?

No, I mean they do help you set it up. It's not that complicated at all. We start to get into the automation and automation of emails and the flow of things. If you're not experienced, I would strongly suggest hiring them to help you, which I hired an automation team to do. It costs a lot of money but I'm telling you it's going to make you a ton of money when it comes to client experience. Right. But other than that, like the scheduling and you know your computer is on your. Say you're. The admin on the office computer is on. Somebody calls your computer ring. It's as easy as that. You pick it up on your computer, you talk to them, put the information in as you're talking to them, records everything and then you send it out as a task for wherever your salesperson is or your project manager or whoever. Right. It keeps track of all communications, which is great.

Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. We use HubSpot at APB but I know a lot of the features of HubSpot are in keep as well. But it really just helps you track everything in one place. So when you need to follow up with a client or see what situation the sales process is at, you can just jump in and get all of that information in one spot. So it really kind of takes the experience end to end for a client. So it's really important to have a good CRM. Yeah, so.

So I think HubSpot was very good as well. When I looked at it, it did seem a little more confusing because I think they're more, they're more, they're bigger. I would say they're a lot bigger and they have a lot more to their system, which I didn't feel as a contractor I needed so much of that. But with keep, now that I'm actually working with the KEEP partner in the automation side, they're showing me like man, KEEP is powerful. Like it's got a lot of stuff. Right. But yeah, I mean it really depends on what you like and softwares, they can all be good. It's just which one do you get along with the best? What do you understand? Right? That's, that's really what it comes down to. Hey, we got literally 200 pre done emails on keep. That goes all the way from when the client says hello to till we hand them over the keys. Plus that we got a maintenance program reminds the clients, you know, in the winter, hey, turn off your water because Winter is coming and we don't want your pipes freezing or hey, spring, hey, clean your gutters. You know, things like that. Just even after you're done with the client, it keeps emailing. Cool, cool. You know, information about their home. Right.

And it just keeps building that relationship on autopilot, basically.

Correct. Yeah. And you know, it's just good information. You know what people may might think, oh, you're flooding a client with emails. No, the client really wants that informational, helpful email while they're building. If this person was not interested in building, then they probably would hate the email. It's just like you and I hate all those other emails we get. Right. But if you're, if you're in the process of building and you're getting building emails and informational email, educational emails, you don't like it, you know, on top of that.

Well, I actually don't hate emails because I'm in marketing and I can understand and know the benefits that come from all of that education and information. But to your point, I think it really comes down to whether or not they are the right person to be receiving that information if they're actually looking for that information.

Yeah, 100%. Even ours have little Easter eggs. So, you know, every so often you get say five or six emails and then you get a gift card for something, you know, and then you just keep going and going. I mean, they're probably going to wonder is this one have a gift card? You know.

That. That's true. That's really cool. I mean, that's going to help with them opening the emails because.

And we tell them, hey, you're going to get a lot of emails, but don't miss them because there will be gift cards along the way.

Yeah, I really love that. That's a cool tactic. Going to have to remember that one.

You know what, it's good to give the clients these gift cards. You can't always take from people. You got to give back. You know, don't make it as, hey, give me my payment, give me my payment. You know, instead of doing that and say, hey, here's something for you. Right.

And that was another tip from the Marcus Sheridan book, right? The gift cards.

No, I don't. Did it. I don't. I don't think so. Which one was. No, it wasn't. But there was the, the one thing I learned from APB and coaching and all the books that you guys gave us was the end experience of I threw a party for this person last Friday. We gave him gifts, we made it special for them. We had red carpet. We made him cut the scissors. Another little red ribbon with the scissors. We had all the trades show up. We had champagne sushi. Like it was a really cool handover.

That's awesome. That's so awes.

And you know what, you kind of know that you got to do something for the client. But after I read it on apb. To what level? I'm telling you, this thing, wait till I show you the video because we got the video getting cut right now. You're going to love it. Like, it's just great. The client's so happy. Is insane. It made the whole experience worth it, right?

Yeah. That's amazing. You've got to send me that video when it, when it gets done. I'd love to see that.

The architect, designer interviews with them. Oh man, it was great.

I mean, that's just great marketing really, isn't it? If you're filming that and repurposing that as content in the rest of your marketing, it just creates this amazing perception of your building experience for clients. But I feel like we could probably talk about the handover experience for another couple of hours. So I'm aware of your time.

Well, look, at first, I'll be honest, I was skeptical at first before I actually connected because you guys always are really good at marketing. So you're reaching out to builders. I talked to them years ago and it just as a kind of not so knowledgeable builder back then, I'm like, oh, this is just a guy trying to take my money. You know, I know what I'm doing. Until you go to your accountant who says, hey, you're a non profit organization. But once I actually engage with, with Clint, which Clint's actually from here, from B.C. probably a couple hours away, but he's from here. And we started talking and I'm like, okay, you know what? This is worth it. I, I gotta take the help. So I started engaging with apb and once I get into your website and all the videos that you guys provided, all the information, I was really excited about talking to the coach when I went into private. Mentoring man. Clint holds you responsible. He cheers you on, he makes sure that you're doing things and then, you know, he makes you really look at your business. Because if you don't know the heartbeat of your business, you don't know what's coming. You don't know if you know what's. If you're going to be profitable that year or if you're even quoting the jobs correctly, you know Think of this. If I'm quoting my jobs at a certain markup right now and it's not enough, and I don't know about it, and I keep quoting it like that, what's going to happen to me in two to three years?

Yeah, yeah. The bubble's going to burst, isn't it?

Oh, dude. You think, you think you are awesome because you got 10 jobs, but what you didn't know is that having 10 jobs is because you're too cheap. Right. And then all of a sudden you're like, oh, I made no profit. I had 10 jobs. I was really busy and stressed. What happened? You know, the good, the good. When you know, if you're at a good price, it's when you're getting three out of 10. But to get three out of 10 and keep that flow going, you got to fill your funnel. And how do you fill your funnel through marketing? And I'm sure you know all this stuff, but this is the kind of stuff that Clint and APB has taught me, like, hey, you need to put a hundred people through your funnel, and this is how you do it. And when you do that, as long as all these come out and they're the right client and you have the right markups for your company to run safely, then you're. You're doing good, right?

Yeah. Yeah. That's a good number to target that. 3 out of 10, closing 3 out of 10 prospects. And kind of the automation's doing a lot of the qualifying of those clients. And then you can, I guess, have conversations with ones that are more likely to close.

Yeah. And even when you qualify them and you know, and you think you. That you got them in the right spot, sometimes they just fall out of the funnel. Right. But that's the whole part of a funnel. Not everyone makes it through.

Yeah, yeah. That's the whole metaphor, Right? That's what it looks like.

That's right. So. And you know why? One thing I learned from Clint, a super key, you cannot be emotionally attached to losing a client. If you lose your client, you lost a client. No problem. Next, the only time you're going to cry about it, if you don't have another client to take care of after that.

Yeah.

And if you don't have another client to take care of, it's probably because you're not doing a good job of marketing.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, I guess that 3 out of 10, it's easy to make those decisions when you've got a lot more prospects and leads into your funnel because Otherwise, you might feel a little bit desperate to get a new client across the line. So you'll, you know, cut your margins, do whatever you need to to get the crown across the line, and that's just going to have a flow on effect with the rest of of your business. But I guess if you've got the full funnel of prospects in there, then you can make smart decisions for your business about who you work with.

Right. You can't reduce your, your markups because your markups are based on what your business needs to run. You know, eventually if you reduce your diet, you're going to get really skinny, you know, and then you're going to be sick and it's just not going to work.

Right.

It's the same thing with a business. You can't stop feeding it. If you stop feeding it, it's not going to run properly. And then how do you service your client if you don't have the funds to service your client? That's the other one. Right. If you're really skinny with your margins, you never want to go back and service your client. If they call you for some kind of issue, a lot of builders will blame everything else but themselves because they don't have the funds to go fix something. We have the funds to fix stuff. And even if it's not our problem or if it wasn't something that's our fault, we run and fix it. Because that's the best source of marketing.

Yeah, 100%. And you're not only running a better business because of that, you're actually creating much better customer experience too.

Oh, 100%. And that's what it's all about. If you're spending two years with a client, why, why are you doing it if you're not going to have a good experience with them? Right?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, look, that's some really great advice for the builders out there. And I'm sure we could speak for several more hours about all of this, all this stuff. It's very interesting to hear how you've approached thing and how you've approached things and, and really revolutionized your client experience. But I know you're super busy, so, I mean, because you're running a successful building company. But are there any final bits of advice you'd like to give the builders out? I guess the client experience working with APB or anything else?

I'm gonna say this with like, not seeing this because this is an APB thing, but I'm gonna say join APB because you're gonna find out Some things about your business and how to run a business that it's gonna be like an aha moment going holy moly. Now I get it right. I, I would say two things. Two major things get we ask. Oh, sorry, they ask your answer and join APB because those two things alone will change the way that your business is going to run immensely. And work on your business, not in it.

On your business, not in. I love that. I love that. It's great advice. Well, Felipe, thanks for giving APB a bit of a plug there, making my job a little bit easier as well. So from the show notes, we'll make sure we link to join APB if that's something you're interested in. Get a hold of Marcus Sheridan's book that you've mentioned there, Felipe as well. And also the software, software Tools keep and job tread would be ones that people might want to check out after listening to this episode. And if people want to go check out your website, I think that'd be a cool idea because it's a great representation of how you can market a building company.

Yeah, new website should be out in a couple weeks here and yeah, it'll be pretty exciting to have it up live and running and having everything flowing like it's supposed to with automation.

By the time this episode goes live, it sounds like you'll probably have a brand new website up so people can go check that out anyway. So the big things I took out from our chat today, Felipe, were understanding the numbers in your business better is such an integral part of running a great building business. Connecting with other builders so you can learn from them and also just create a community where you can share challenges is also another thing that you've really taken on board. And just automating and systemizing your business as much as possible. So not only can you create that end to end client experience and give a great experience to clients, but also you can set yourself up to run a bet a better business and also give yourself that time back in your day to day life.

100%. 100%. You know, grow. Grow a business, not just a job. Right. And if you do it correctly, you'll be able to sell your business at the end. You know, if it's profitable and full of systems, somebody will buy it from you and you'll be able to retire one day.

Yeah, I love that. Grow a business, not just a job. Let's leave it on that quote because I think that's a really good way to wrap things up. But thanks again, Felipe. It's been an absolute pleasure having a chat to you today and hearing about your business and all the systems and processes you've put in place to make it such a success. And thanks to all our listeners out there, wherever you are in the world and whichever platform you're listening on. If you like the show, please subscribe. And if you're feeling generous, leave us a review. But until next time, have a great day and we look forward to seeing you again.

Thank you. Will. I appreciate you having me on here.