Learning to Lead — Because People Don’t Follow Managers | Ep. 54 | Toolbox for the Trades

Kathi Nielsen, welcome back to the podcast. For everyone who doesn't know, you are a business development consultant and the owner of Operations Excellence, llc, which helps companies train customer service representatives and office management superheroes. You're also a Service titan and QuickBooks expert. And today you've brought on a very special guest who I'm super excited to talk to. Lauren Schieffer, welcome also to the Toolbox for the trades podcast.

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Thanks for having us.

And just for anyone who is curious and wants to track voices, the first person who spoke is Lauren. Lauren, can you please say hi?

Hey there.

And Kathy, good morning. There we go.

It might not be morning, though, when we.

Well, it's morning now, so, you know, we're just bringing the authenticity of the interview to the recording. So this is a really interesting conversation. I haven't done one like this before, so I hope. I really want to thank you ladies for being kind of my guinea pigs in this instance. And I'm going to start the podcast the way I do every single time. And because we know the answer to Kathy's. Kathy's answer to this question, Lauren, I'm going to ask you, how did you get into the trades?

Well, I. I'm not going to lie to you and say that I am in the trades. I have spoken and consulted with multiple industries. I started my corporate career in trucking. I've trained law enforcement officers. I've trained distribution centers. So the. Do we say blue collar? Can we say blue collar? The blue collar industries I'm very familiar with. This is a new avenue for me. I'm very excited to be here today.

That is awesome. All right, so you're not from the trades. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Who are you and what do you do?

My brand is the colonel's daughter. My father was lieutenant colonel in the United States Air Force. And just about everything that I. Just about everything that I know and I teach about leadership, I learned from my dad and other significant leaders that I had the privilege of knowing because of my dad. I am a keynote speaker, author, and consultant, and I work with emerging leaders, helping them transition from success to significance.

That's awesome. Definitely a certified public speaker because you were able to answer that question in less than 45 seconds. Quick elevator pitch. Okay, so not from the trades. You are a person who trains on leadership professionally. You have worked in blue collar industries. That's awesome. Kathy, where the heck did you find Lauren? How did you guys come to meet one another?

So when I Started this journey. I also decided to get better at public speaking and so I joined a group called nsa. It's National Speakers association and they have a big convention every year. And I went and, and Lauren is one of the people that spoke to me and was friendly and so we started talking, realized we live fairly close to each other. At the time we were about three hours apart and so just connected and I really love to connect with people just that feed my personal bucket and think how I think but expands that thinking and Lauren is that person. And so we stayed in touch and, and we do lunch or cocktails about once every couple of months and then grew our business opportunities from there.

Awesome. And that's what we're here to talk about today is the business opportunities and the kind of co. The merger, I should say, of what you guys are doing, which I think is super exciting.

Let's say partnership.

Partnership. Good word, better word. Lauren and I want to quickly talk to you, Kathy about, you know, in your role within the trades and for anyone who hasn't listened to my, my first episode with Kathy, it is so good. Please listen back to it. You told me when you first introed me to Lauren that you had noticed that within the trades there was a desperate need for leadership training. So can you just talk to me about that and where you saw the opportunity and why you think leadership training isn't necessary, why you think you don't need trade specific leadership training.

Well, in any industry what we tend to do is we tend to promote people because they're really great at their job and we say, okay, now you're going to be a manager and something flips in their brain and they lose their mind and, and we don't teach them to be a leader and a manager and then they oftentimes fail because we haven't grown that in them. They were just really great at being a csr, being a tech. It's. It's that way across any industry. I just happen to be in the trades a lot because of my history and background. And so I've, I've had up on my board. I have a door in my office that I put stuff, sticky notes on just things that I want to do. We hear a lot of people say they're rocks, right? So one of my rocks was I wanted to have a leadership section and training for that middle, those middle leaders that we neglect. We have tons of things out there for owners. We have tons of things out there for service managers and technicians and CSRs. We have nothing for the office manager, the GM, that, that kind of middle, middle, the upper management, we have nothing for them. And so it's always been a big goal of mine to do something to help them with that.

Yeah. And I 100 agree. Please go.

Add to that the transition from being a rock star individual contributor to guiding and mentoring others into rock star individual contributors. That transition can be very hard because the success measurements change. It requires a mental shift from me to we. And when we let go of the, the pats and the strokes and the accolades, for me, sometimes it's easy to get lost looking for where our success measurements come. When we are more focused on we, it can be a real quagmire that can drown people making that shift.

And it can also have a negative effect on the business. Right.

Yep.

This is such a fascinating topic to me and I'm really excited that we are talking about it. Mainly because this is affecting my personal life too. You know, as I grow in my career and I get into more of a management role and have folks reporting up to me, man, don't we love to just go back to those old comforts of like, yeah, but I can do this, this and this. And you know, it just feels so great. Like, I would think. Kathy, correct me if I'm wrong, but in the terms of the trades, like if your top tech gets promoted to a service manager and now all of a sudden they're overseeing a bunch of techs opposed to doing their own job, they're going to be just like jonesing to get into the field and fix something or sell something and just do that kind of stuff. Opposed to really mentoring the folks that are out there in the field. And maybe in that example, not a service manager, but maybe more of a gm. I don't know. What do you think?

Well, any of those, because they were like the service manager, they were really great tech and now you have them as a manager. But sometimes they think it's quicker to do it themselves or they don't understand why that person can't figure it out, you know, or they'll be. One of the first things a business coach told me years ago was I have to let people fail. If, if I was a tech in the field and now I'm a service manager, oftentimes I don't think the tech should be held accountable to certain things because when I was a tech, that was a pain. So I'm not going to do that to my techs when I'm managing them. But some of those things have to happen. You have to hold them accountable, whether you agreed with it at a tech level or not. And a lot of owners in this industry have trouble holding their people accountable because they came from driving a van and doing service, and now they're like, man, when I was a tech, that was a pain to be held accountable for that. Same with a CSR that's now an office manager. You know, it's. It's hard to want to hold them accountable because you know that it might be something that's a little difficult or requires more effort.

Oh, man, this is like hitting home for me personally in so many ways right now. Like, yeah, that one part of my job really sucked, and I don't want this person to have to go through it either. But that's part of the job, right?

Yes, exactly.

It's part of the growth process. Lots of times when I'm with a group, I have them repeat after me, if I want it done right, I.

Might as well do it myself.

Yeah, it takes longer to teach someone how to do it than to do it myself. Right. But everything I try and shift the focus, everything that you know how to do, everything you know how to do, because someone was willing to invest the time and the energy to teach you how to do that, why would you not pay that forward? I think to. To the. To. You know, Kathy's point about letting people fail, it's. We are robbing them of that growth and that. That ability to learn. And if we're not willing to pay that forward and continue to just do it ourselves, I think that's a little selfish.

That's a really interesting spin on it. So, Lauren, I would love to learn a little bit more about. I mean, that was just a great, great kind of start answer to this question I'm about to give you. But how do you help someone grow from the per. From the person being good at doing something to the person managing others and teaching them how to be good at something?

Well, we start with basic leadership characteristics, because I am a firm believer that there is a difference between a manager and a leader.

Agree.

And I've met many, many managers that in no way whatsoever are they leaders. People don't follow managers. People follow leaders. So we start with the core concepts of leadership. And I have something that I've trademarked called the nine essentials of significant leadership. We start there to begin that shift from me to we, and then we focus on establishing a vision. How do we establish a vision? How do we communicate that vision? How do we communicate our expectations in a manner that doesn't leave those we are leading feeling like they've been set up to fail. How do we empower growth in others? How do we help our team set goals for themselves and align those goals to our vision? Because it's really important that leaders understand that your team doesn't care about your vision until they know what's in it for them. Where do they fit in that vision? How do they benefit from it? We start with those core leadership concepts, and sometimes we have to hammer them home. You know, the Colonel always said, don't force it. You could get a bigger hammer. And we work those, and we work those into different scenarios. It's not an overnight transition, but with consistent messaging, that transition happens.

Got it. Kathy, looks like you wanted to say something.

Well, I think with that said, what all of that also feeds into is, you know, accountability is huge in any business, and in this industry, there's a high lack of accountability. And so those principles also, when you establish that, when you establish those principles and that expectation, now we know what to hold people accountable to. Because part of that mental shift they make is just like you alluded to earlier. You said, you know, when something is kind of a pain to do, you hate to now make others do that. But. But it's stuff that's part of the job and you have to do. And so it helps also with that mental shift to go, oh, part of the job is this. Now, as a leader, a manager, looking through a different lens, I understand the purpose and the necessity of that. And so having laying that foundation that Lauren's talking about allows us now to have things to hold people accountable. So it's not personal.

The Colonel used to say that you can't get irritated when people don't meet your expectations. If you never communicated what your expectations are.

I mean, pretty good. Yeah. I want to. We'll get back to the accountability part, but, Lauren, I really want to dig more into the what's in it for me because. And on this podcast, I primarily talk with owners. Right. So what's their vision? What's in it for them? Obviously, they're trying to build a successful business that will either feed their family for generations or they'll be able to turn return a profit at some point down the line. Right. They're building a business. That's what's in it for them. When we go into these middle managers that Kathy specifically is saying needs this type of leadership training, how do you shift. How do you define the what's in it for them? Because they're. They Potentially are not going to have a big payoff. Maybe they will, maybe they not. I know some people, some folks in the trades have equity plans. Right. How do we communicate the. What's in it for them, for those middle. Those middle managers for that, you know, next tier down the leadership ladder to get them so invested in the success of the business, they can then lead the folks under them.

The key to that, and again, it's a basic tenet of leadership, is understanding that every person that you lead, so if it's the owners, they're leading the middle managers. If it's the middle managers, they're leading those in the field, you have to get to know those people that you lead. So for each person, each individual, what's in it for me is going to be different. And I think it's a little shortsighted to assume that. And I'm not saying that you were assuming that, but it's a little shortsighted to assume that. It's always about money. It may not be about the equity plan. It may be about the satisfaction of taking care of your team members and them communicating their appreciation for that. It could be once we shift from me to we looking at the numbers, the efficiency numbers coming in, because you got to track your numbers. You have to track them effectively. So looking at the numbers and seeing a consistent 2% increase over last month or every month for every person.

What'S.

In it for them is going to be different. And it is a leader's responsibility to get to know their team well enough to tap into their personal, individual. What's in it for me? What do I need? For some it may be money. For others it may be accolades. It just it. Or verbal appreciation. It just. It depends on each person. Kathy, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.

No. Part of, part of that leadership is learning what motivates each of them. You know, and you and I have talked before, Jackie, I'm a huge assessment believer. I think that's a. A tool to be used for that so you can understand your team. Because a lot of people in leadership assume it's money. Because most leadership roles come with some kind of perks or benefits that's monetarily given. So we assume for the rest of our team it is that. And so I think that's really. That's part of that whole leadership team. Teaching is teaching them to understand what does motivate them and how do we do that, you know, how do we make sure they're getting fed.

Yeah.

And Everybody gets fed differently.

Yeah, I think it's really interesting. I mean, Kathy, we have talked about the assessments before. I'm glad you brought it up. Lauren, are there any kind of leadership tips, like not leadership. Are there any leadership tips that you can give Lauren? Yes, she can give a bajillion. Are there any tips that you can, you could give to new leaders who need to identify what motivates their employees? It needs to stop making assumptions, which as my old college professor used to say, when you assume, it makes an ass out of you and me. What are some tools that they can use to kind of break those barriers to get rid of those assumptions?

You know, the most effective, the first I'm always going to recommend the most effective is the simplest. Talk to them, ask them. I always encourage anytime there is a change in leadership, anytime there's a change in the org structure. Sometimes managers get, especially in the trucking industry, managers get transitioned from one office to another office. So the sales manager may come from a Kansas City facility and take over the, the sales department of the Phoenix office. They get shuffled around. Anytime that happens, I rec. I always recommend that you bring each employee in for a one on one conversation and say start with this is what you can expect from me. This is what I expect from you. Tell me what's important to you. What do you need from me to serve your needs as your leader? Ask now. Sometimes people will have never heard that conversation before. They'll never have been asked that question before. So it may take them off guard. Give them the time to think it through and come back to you with a result, with a response. I really want to know what do you need from me to make your day easier in this office? To make the the environment such that you can perform at your top speed, level, best at all times. How can I smooth that path for you? Those are conversations that a leader needs to have with the people they lead.

Yeah. If you think about your work history, Jackie, how many times have you ever been asked that?

Oh my goodness. I've definitely been asked it by service titan who, who sponsors and owner of this podcast. I've definitely been asked by them, but yeah, no, in past job histories, not that much. Not that much. What about you?

I really was never asked that. And it's again, it's not a dig to past bosses, but again, it's basic leadership tools. When I was GM, I did a 15 minute checkup with every employee. I had 49 employees once a month because I saw that right? Because I had people in my Corner like Lauren and people I talked to that said that. So I'd have that conversation. But if you really think about your job history, it's just not a common thing. Just have a conversation.

I know. I would love to, kind of, because we've been talking very like theory and practice and kind of best practices. I would love it if either of you could share with me a personal story from when something like this has happened. When a conversation has really transformed or unlocked leadership with a manager or potentially a conversation a manager had with a direct report that really unlocked new productivity and efficiency and happiness. For that direct report, I'm going to.

Let Lorne answer just because several of my stories you have heard. So I'm going to let Loren answer because I tend to talk a lot anyway.

Oh my goodness. She says I tend to talk a lot to the person that's a professional speaker. Well, let me start with. It is a story I tell on stage, but it kind of started me on this process. I was the secretary for the sales department for a major nationwide van line. In that capacity, I performed tasks for the salespersons. I answered to the sales manager. We had a brand new sales manager who had just been promoted to our branch to assume that position. He'd been there about three and a half weeks. With that promotion, he inherited me. Now, it was bright and early, 8am sharp on a Monday morning when he invited me into his office to share with me everything that I do that irritates him. He made a list. He had pages on a legal pad. Now, in his defense, I was younger than I am now and I was cocky than I am now. So probably half of what he had to share with me was valid. Nonetheless, I left that day feeling defeated and defiant simultaneously. And I was ready to quit my job.

Yeah.

And I did what any good Colonel's daughter would do. I called Daddy Wine. And the Colonel said, well, it appears to me, kid, that the two of you are not communicating. Yes, Daddy, but how do I get him to communicate with me? He said, well, you got that one backward, kid. You need to figure out how to communicate with him. Now, I didn't like that at all, but it was true. And so he gave. Dad taught me that I needed to lead up and I needed to walk into my next conversation with him with a series of questions that would improve our relationship. And the first one was, share with me exactly what you expect from me. This is what I need from you to make that happen. So that started the whole messaging and the whole. That started my life's passion, basically, was that one conversation. I thought about looking him up to see if he's still in the industry and where I might find him, just to thank him for launching me on my ultimate career. But I haven't done that. The next one is it's in a different industry. I was mentoring the leadership team for a nursing home, and they brought me in to improve communication and accountability. And very early on, in working with their supervisory staff, I realized that their supervisory staff was not holding their frontline staff accountable because the executive team was not holding the supervisory staff accountable. So then I started working with the executive staff only to realize that they needed to hold themselves accountable. And I gave them four questions. Was a very simple mind shift. Four questions. What is the issue specifically? Not the politics around the issue, not the personalities around the issue. What is the issue specifically? The second question is, what am I doing or not doing that's contributing to the issue? So question number two prevents blaming what is so and so doing? What am I doing or not doing specifically? That's contributing. The third question is, what will I do differently or not do differently to help solve the problem? Question number three requires them to become part of the solution. And then question number four is, how will I hold myself accountable for what I'm going to do with question number three? And if I can't do it, who will I turn to to hold me accountable? The shift in the executive team created a shift in the supervisory team, which then created a shift in the front line, and their numbers increased by 27%.

That's awesome.

Across the board, just by making. I'm sorry.

No, I wanted to point something out, what you said all the time. We see leaders that are supposed to hold others accountable but don't hold themselves accountable. That's all. I see it all the time. And if a department is failing in whatever their numbers, their efficiencies, their culture, oftentimes it's because the person that's supposed to be holding them accountable can't even hold themselves accountable. It's really common. And so when she said that, I loved that. It's. You can't blame it, right? If you say what I have to do or not do, you can't say, well, so and so did this or did that. Because the other thing that a lot of leaders do is throw people under the bus. And that's one of the first things I always say. You can't throw your team members under the bus. You never have a conversation and say, like, I wouldn't sit down with Lauren and say, Jackie told me that you. Blah, blah, blah. Because now I'm throwing Jackie under the bus when she. You may have approached me with an issue that clearly is something maybe Lauren's doing wrong. But I'm never going to tell Lauren where I heard it.

Yeah.

And. And that's part of that whole accountability thing, too, is if you're playing that blame game and throwing everybody under the bus, it doesn't create good leadership.

And furthermore, it fractures trust.

Yes.

And once that trust is fractured, it can never be built again. That person will always have a tire track on their back from being thrown under the bus.

Yes.

It can never be rebuilt again. Trust is one of the first things that we focus on in leadership. But I'd like to just talk about that accountability just for a second, please. I. I am a firm believer that a lack of accountability is rarely, if ever, intentional. I. I am a benefit of the doubt person. No one wakes up in the morning and says, I'm going to be a slacker today.

I don't know. I kind of. I don't know. I think I've had days like this before.

Lauren. Few people usually.

I wanted to.

So usually poor accountability is the result of a few key underlying issues that are easily solved once we know what they are. So. And of course, we don't have time to go into all of them right now, but I can just touch base on them most of the time. It's overwhelming overload for lack of accountability. Yeah. Every company is trying to do more with less.

Yep.

And if. If someone. If they lose someone or they let someone go and they don't replace that person, that workload's got to go somewhere. So we'll divvy up among different desks. We're just overloaded most of the time. We are running 100 miles an hour with our roller skates on and our blinders on, hoping we don't bump into a wall. Things are bound to slip through the cracks. So that's one thing. The second thing is unclear responsibilities. So we know this needs to get done, but we haven't defined whose responsibility is it. It is. Sometimes it's unclear priorities. So I have 10 things on my desk, and no one has communicated to me which one has to come first. So I start on number five, because that's the one I'm thinking about right now. It's the easiest or it's my favorite or whatever it is. When everyone else thought that number one on my desk was what I was going to jump into. So it's a lack of priorities. Unclear priorities. Sometimes it's a lack of. It's unclear authority. I know this needs to get done. I don't know if I have the authority to do it. Each and every one of those, sans the first, the overload, we is a different tactic. But everything else is about clear communication. So once we resolve those kind of things, and as leaders, it always starts with us. It always starts with us. We have to model the personal accountability for our team, even to the point of modeling responsibility when things go wrong. You know, the Colonel, it wasn't original to the Colonel, but he's the first person I always heard it from. He always says, you can't take credit for when things go right if you're not willing to take responsibility when things go wrong. So sometimes that personal accountability from a leadership standpoint requires standing in front of your employee and saying, I was wrong. This was my fault. I didn't communicate this to you, and I apologize. That takes a big person.

I think the other thing too is we tend to. To on the accountability piece, even if we think we've given them clear expectations and we've given them authority and all those things, a lot of times we think everybody thinks like we do. So like the prioritizing that Lauren talked about, if we would prioritize it a certain way because we're a critical thinker, we kind of just figure everybody's a critical thinker. And I run into it all the time when I'm working in Service Titan, like memberships. That's a big one. Right. And I tell people, give them this job if they are a critical thinker, but if they're not, don't give them that task. It doesn't mean it's bad. It doesn't mean they're not smart. But you have to also realize how your team thinks on an individual basis. Are they a critical thinker? Are they not? Are they a big picture thinker? Are they not? Because you can't. You can't assign them tasks or expectations if they're not wired to do think that way.

And that comes right back to knowing your team.

Yes.

Yeah.

You cannot just hire somebody and pigeonhole them into a position or pigeonhole them into the way you think they should think and feel.

Yes.

Every employee, every member of every staff is a human being unique to themselves.

Yeah. It's almost like not everyone grew up the exact same way you did, went to the same school, have the same life experience. That's why you make the decisions that you do. Someone has a completely different life than you do, they're going to come to a different conclusion. Right. Something I definitely have to remind myself of.

No, except that think of if you have siblings, like my brother, for example, has three girls. They all grew up in the exact same house in the exact same small town with the exact same parents, three totally different people. They think different, they act different, they have different likes and dislikes. So, you know, I know that all gets into the whole deep nature versus nurture and all that, but again, it doesn't even matter if all things are equal. They could think different, you know?

Yeah, 100%. I loved everything you had to say, Lauren, about accountability, that it's a, that a lack of accountability, not holding folks accountable is usually not intentional. It's usually a combo of overwhelm and overload, unclear responsibility, priorities or authority. All of those resonate with me. And I can personally, in my own work experience, think of examples where that was the case. And I could see why something like accountability gets so easily swept under the rug or falls through the cracks because it's such a nuanced thing that like doesn't have direct results. Right. And I feel like as leaders in business, we're constantly focused on a number goal or some sort of KPI goal. And this idea of accountability, which doesn't necessarily like, isn't tangible almost, it's, it's very easy for it to just like kind of just be ignored by us. Right. Do you feel that way?

Yeah. And again, as leaders, it is our responsibility to clearly communicate what happens if our team falls short on their expectations. And, and I don't mean in a threatening way, do this or else they're going to get fired. But in a big picture way, this is your piece of the puzzle. And these 12 pieces of the puzzle can't happen until your piece goes in. So all of these pieces are waiting on this piece of, of the puzzle. The whole picture doesn't come together if you don't put this piece in where it's supposed to be, when it's supposed to be. Let them clearly communicate what happens when they fall short on that accountability, when they fall short on those expectations.

And if you put it in, in words in this industry, because again, it relates to any industry. But to just put it at a very basic level, a CSR's job is to book, answer the phone, book calls. That's it. That's our main job. They don't have their tasks, but that's their job. If they don't book a call, if they don't answer the phone, we have no business. If they don't answer and book a call, the tech has no job. If the tech chooses not to go on a call, we have no revenue coming in. Pretty soon, we have no customer. I mean, everybody has a particular responsibility for particular tasks or rules they place play. And as leaders, we, as we've said several times so far, we have to set those expectations and then hold them accountable. Because if I have a CSR and I'm the office manager and they're not answering the phone or booking their calls, we have a problem.

Yeah. You know, I want to just recap real quick because we've been talking about some stuff that's definitely made me think, not as it's challenging me as an interviewer, because I want to just be a listener, but the big themes I'm hearing out of our conversation so far are the importance of one clear communication, figuring out a way to communicate with your employees. Also encouraging your employees to talk to you. Right. Setting expectations, what is expected of you, and then finally giving the big picture, which is. And holding folks accountable. If you do not meet these expectations, this is what happened. This is what will happen to the business as a whole. And I'm thinking back to my career when I first got into the tech space. Space how none of that was ever explained to me. Nothing. I just had to kind of figure it out on my own. And, you know, all best wishes to my earlier bosses who were just trying to run these startup companies and try to succeed under like crazy odds that were against them, which is very much like a tech starting his own. His very own business. Right. Kathy, when you're trying to scale and grow a business, there's so much so stuff that you lose. But sometimes it's just. It boils down to just being so simple as, like, take a minute and tell your team. Make sure your team knows how they're contributing to the bigger picture, because once they understand that, it sounds like the entire organization as a whole will just be lifted up and will be elevated. So talking back to accountability, Kathy, in your experience working in the industry that this podcast is targeting, right, what you and I work in, our bread and butter, how do you find that setting expectations, holding folks accountable, how do you find that that is done most effectively in the trades?

Well, I, all the time when I'm talking to people and I'll say, you know, timesheet, for example, well, they forget to clock in and out. Well, that's an accountability issue. Right. So if they don't, what are the expectations number one. So if they don't do it, what's the consequences and, or rewards if they do? Because a lot of people have a really hard time with consequences because it feels like a threat like Lauren talked about. So I think it's a matter of if you know what those are then determine those consequences or rewards. I think that's the biggest thing in industry. I see. I don't. They may know what they want those expectations to be but they don't know how to hold them accountable. So clocking in and out, they don't clock in. Thanks for volunteering today. I can't pay you if I don't know what you worked. Okay. So the consequence is you don't get paid because I can't if I don't know what that is or if you don't clock out. That expectation is if you don't clock out your day ends at 3:30 because I don't know if you don't tell me. So I think it's a matter of not only setting the expectations but then following through with that because you can't. Well I'm going to let that guy slide because man, he's our best and, and you know that it's just the nature. No, he's a grown up, he can clock in and out. So I, I think that's just, you have to set standards.

I think I, I would agree with that. And just in the, in the clocking in and out in that situation because we are talking about someone's paycheck, were it me the, the first time I would log them in for the very minimum hours that that is acceptable and I would communicate you were paid for this amount of hours because you didn't clock in. I don't know how many hours you worked. And this is the one and only time that that will happen. Next time you need to know very clearly that there will be no paycheck. It is your responsibility to keep track of your hours. And so, so you have gone the one extra step, the one extra mile to give them one grace and then clearly communicate this is your one and only grace. After that this is what's going to happen. And that's when the really hard moment of if it happens again, letting them fall on their face without a paycheck. I can guarantee you it's only going.

To happen once I've done it and I created, instead of direct depositing them, I didn't pay them and I created a check and had it in my hand, you know, had it my Drawer had, had the conversation, gave them the mulligan the next time. They didn't do it. I didn't. It wasn't direct deposit in their check. We had the conversation, then I handed them their check. Because, you know, that's an extreme example. But the principles of that are the same, regardless of what's. What it is you're trying to hold them accountable for. Sure.

Yeah, exactly. Because it's not like you can't pay them. You still got to pay them. But having that. Having that giving of the check moment and forcing them to have that conversation is what's going to hopefully be that consequence that reinforces the. That corrects the behavior that you don't want to happen. And reinforces the behavior that you do want to happen.

Exactly. And I like that example because it's kind of an extreme example. So people kind of go, what? You know, I know.

Well, sometimes you need extreme examples to really, like, make the point clear. And can I just say something that's like, coming up to me as we discuss this is that this so feels like, like dog training in some ways in a bad way. Like, I am an employee. I. I know I certainly have been coached or trained in this way in myself. So. So please, to anyone who has had this and who's listening, please do not take it that way. But it really is true. Like, this is boiling down to, like, positive, reinforce, reward behavior that you like and discipline for behavior that you do not, that you do not like and you want to correct. Let's talk a little bit about conflict and about kind of having those sticky things while we're there.

Sure, let's go there.

So, Lauren, I mean, we can stay on this really extreme example or we can pivot to another one. I'll let you choose. But how do you recommend leaders have those tough conversations? So say we've done everything right. We've set our expectations. We've communicated what's in it for the employee. We've told them how their puzzle piece fits in the overall puzzle of the business. Right. We've set our expectations. They know what they're supposed to do, and they haven't met them. How. How do you recommend that they move forward? What are some tips?

Well, my tips are all foundational. First and foremost, never address a behavior or a conflict when you are not in emotional control. If you are not in emotional control, you are ineffective. In every avenue of your life, you're ineffective. But especially as a leader, always make sure that. That you have a good handle on your emotions. They are not driving you. That's the first thing. Secondly, always address a behavior without attacking a person. Separate the person from their behavior. Address a behavior without attacking a person. Thirdly, the best definition of respectful communication I've ever heard in my life didn't come from me. So I have to give her credit because I use it all the time. And the definition is this. Say what you mean. Mean what you say and don't be mean when you say it. That is profound in its simplicity. Right. I wish I could take credit for it. It comes from my friend Meryl Runyon, comes from her book Power Phrases. So we're going to make sure our emotions are in check. We're going to address the behavior without attacking the person. We're going to say what we mean, mean what we say and not be mean when we say it. And if we cannot do those, then we walk away from the conversation until we. Those are the foundational things. And within that, every situation is going to be different. And a lot of it we've already discussed. These were my expectations. These were where you fell short of those expectations. These are my expectations going forward. It's actually kind of a simple process. There is a phrase that I like and that has helped me to understand. I avoid the word why when I can. Why did you do that? Because it's very accusatory. I. I use and maybe overuse. Help me to understand. Was I clear when I specified that this was my expectation? Help me to understand why that didn't happen.

Jackie and I have talked about that in the past too. Is I. I'm crazy particular about the words I use. I rarely ever say why. I just don't. It's parental makes people defensive. And so Lauren and I, when we first started hanging out, that's one thing we talked a lot about, was our words, words. Because we're both that way and. And me, just because I've been coached in that, you know, psychology of the words we use. Lauren interestingly, growing up, her dad had her. She can tell the story, but had her learn a huge vocabulary. And so she's crazy particular about the word she uses too. And so why is huge. And I see it every time I'm in shops. We react emotionally and we say why. And I hear it on phone calls, with texts, in the field. I hear it in office, amongst each other. It's all the time. And it's really just really a defensive word for people.

Another word that I try and eliminate from vocabulary is the word but now that's but with one t And not two. But is a verbal eraser. Nothing before the but counts. I love you, but. That's great.

But.

Oh, she tries really hard. But nothing before the but counts. So make sure that if you're using the word but or any manifestation of the word but, because there are hundreds of them. You know what you're eliminating with the word so. And yes, my father, when I was growing up, as. As soon as, I guess, as soon as I could read or write, every week, I had homework from my father, and that was to write out a page from the dictionary. Now, for people who are not my. My age, dictionary was a book at one time, and I had to copy out. It helped me with my penmanship, and it helped me with my vocabulary. And then I had to choose one page or one word from the page that I had written and define it from my father and use it in a sentence.

Isn't that crazy? Is that not crazy? Think about that.

When I was in fifth grade, I was failing math, and I didn't tell my parents, so I had to write I must not lie to my parents 1000 times. So that was an invention of my dad, and to this day, cannot lie. Cannot lie. I can't do it. I want to speak to. But really quick, because I 100% agree with it. It's a verbal eraser. I actually love the way you use that. And it also. I really think there's power as a leader in learning how to stand by the words that you say. I think but and oh, but also oh, but don't oh. And we love to pad the words we say with these extra buffers to kind of soften the blow when we want to say something transformative or maybe taken as negative. Not negative, but maybe taken as a constructive feedback. And all it does is it just confuses the person. Because if you put too many buts, you put too many ands, you put too many fluffers around your statement, they're going to leave that meeting where you were supposed to not discipline them, but. But give them a consequence, and they're gonna be like, oh, I think we're fine. And guess what? Now we're just repeating that cycle over and over again. Lauren, you're nodding. I'm assuming you agree.

I do agree. I think that we are addicted to conjunctions. I think that we have forgotten how to put a full stop at the end of a sentence.

Yeah.

And so many times when I'm teaching on this, and we have the time to really dig into communication. Communication. I discourage people from Using discounted phrases or clauses. I could be wrong, but.

Or.

Well, this is just my opinion. Don't discount what you're about to say. Don't discount what you just said. Say what you mean. Mean what you say, and don't be mean when you say it. So I often challenge my audiences to spend a full day, 24 hours putting a full stop at one at the end of their sentence and not using conjunctions.

Yeah.

Hard.

It's really hard.

It's so hard. It's so hard.

Now we're all going to be thinking about that the rest of the day. And when we speak. Good.

I've done my job.

There was. I'm not sure if y' all ever saw it, but remember the Schoolhouse Rock videos?

Oh, yeah.

Junction. Junction. What's your function exactly?

Yes. Picking up words and phrases and clauses, Lauren. That's what their name is. So another thing I just wanted to talk about really quickly, and then I want to pivot to learn a little bit more about how you ladies are working together and why we did this whole interview in the first place. But what I loved you said a couple minutes ago, Lauren, is that when you are having a difficult conversation, you separate the person from the behavior, which is something that Brene Brown, who I absolutely love, talks about all the time. Just because you did a bad thing does not mean you're a bad person. Right. And so I just wanted to really underline that because I think that is also something that is just so crucial as you're learning to lead and to manage other people.

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. And I think that we as a society struggle more with this in the 21st century than we did before. One bad behavior does not make a human being bad. Sometimes we just make poor decisions. And I think, like I said, I think in the good old days, I think in the 20th century, it was easier than it is now in the 21st century. I think we have become so reactive to other people's words and other people's behaviors that we assume that one bad behavior, one bad decision makes a human being bad or evil. And that has got to turn around if we are ever going to function again as a society, we need to address behaviors without attacking people.

I bring that up all the time with permissions and service, Titanic permissions. Keep honest people honest. Because somebody could be in a situation and they make a really poor decision, it doesn't mean they're, you know, like, if somebody, I don't know, takes money or something, it doesn't mean automatically they're this horrible person. But if you start talking to them, you could find out that all this terrible stuff has happened to them financially, in their personal life, and they just made a poor decision. So I think that's the same thing in communicating and with your emotions, being involved in all that. We have to take a step back and go, okay, what caused them to make this decision? And was it something that that's how they're morally and wired, or are they in a situation they didn't see another choice? And I think that's so true in, you know, all aspects. And as a leader, I think we need to consider that.

You know, I think that's a good add on. Thanks, Kathy. All right, so, Kathy, we just got a nice, I don't know, 55 minute intro into Lauren, into what she does and her best, her thinking. You met her at NSA and you were like, this lady's got some pretty, pretty, pretty good head on her shoulders. So tell me a little bit about what you guys have decided to do now.

Well, I mean, anybody that's heard any of my podcasts with you, Jackie, always know I'm just a freak about helping leaders be better. And so one of my stickies, like I said on my door, was a GM office manager leadership program. Not to say that owners or service managers, something can't be a part of it, but I just really saw that need for that middle. And so I've always wanted to do it. I love doing it. I just don't have capacity. And so when I started talking to Lauren and read her books and would meet over cocktails or whatever, I realized that we think alike and she has those same kind of qualities in leadership, how to have good leaders and grow good leaders. And as you heard in the whole podcast, her voice, when she got really passionate, did you hear the change in her? And yeah, so I'm attracted to that and that's what I want to bring to the table, but I just don't, I don't have the time capacity. So ask Lauren if she'd be interested in being the facilitator with that. So we are going to launch a leadership program. It has a curriculum, it has, it meets twice a month for 60 minutes. And then it's going to be also include a 30 minute one on one time. So the group will be 15. It's going to be small groups. So when you're on Zooms, everybody's on screen, we can all talk and be engaged. And then the one on one time is just that person on Zoom With Lauren, she's going to facilitate it. She's written the curriculum with the. The nine say what they are. There's nine.

Nine Essentials of Significant Leadership and the ten building blocks of Master Communicators.

Exactly. So that's the foundation pieces for it. There is homework. It's not going to be this huge time suck, but you will be required to be engaged and be a part of that. And so we are launching that in August and I'm super excited about it because there's a huge, huge need in this industry.

I'm really excited about it too. And this podcast will go out August 9th. So I think you guys said that the program was launching August 10, so.

First session is August 10. August 11.

August 11.

August 11 is the first session. Yeah, we're open opening it for registration on August 1st, I believe. Kathy, is that true?

Correct. Yep. We'll have a launching page on my website, chicken lady speaks.com and. And you can get more information there. We're, we're finishing up the launching page now, but yeah, so I'm just excited about it because I've been wanting to do it for so long and I know you and I have talked about it multiple times, Jackie, and how crazy I am about it, but.

This is awesome. I'm so excited for this project to launch. And we're going to have the links to your website in the show notes of this episode, Kathy, as well as on the website. So folks can go there and they can sign up if they're interested in. Interested. Honestly, this sounds again, like a total need and a giant value to anyone who joins. So I'm really excited for you and I just want to say congratulations. It's been really awesome. Lauren. I've known Kathy, you know, ever since I joined Service Titans now. It's been what, like four years now?

Gosh, a long time, hasn't it? I still. All the time. Last week, in fact, when I was on site, the owner introduced me to my. To the text when I was doing tech training. He said, I listened to one of our podcasts, one of your podcasts, and I said, we got to have this person. So they're still getting listened to all the time, which is awesome.

Yeah, that's so cool. So I just want to say I'm super happy and thrilled to see your business grow and flourish and congratulations on checking off that big to do. Lauren, so excited for you to join the world of the trades and I think you've got some really awesome, awesome stuff ahead of you and that you're going to share with our industry, and I think they're going to welcome you with open arms. You'll enjoy it. It's a pretty cool. It's a pretty cool thing that trades, I think. So.

Thank you very much. I am actually very excited. I'm really excited about this partnership. And one thing I did want to say about the sessions is, yes, I do have curriculum written. I have curriculum written probably enough to last us for two years. But the, the. Each session is going to be a. A combination. It's going to grow organically. So there will be content that I'll be providing. There will be application discussions among those in that are members of that particular session. There will be assignments, homework that they will hold themselves accountable for and peer accountability for, and then peer support also, which is. Which may or may not be something that exists right now, which is why we kept it intimate. So we'll start with one, and then as the need grows, we'll add another group. So I am very, very excited about this and, and about helping to make a difference.

That's awesome. Okay, Lauren, I have a couple rapid fire questions I ask at the end of every podcast and Kathy's done them already, so it's your turn to get put on the spot. But don't worry, they're nothing too hard. You're gonna do that. Are you ready for them?

I guess. Yes, I guess.

How do you take your coffee?

Lots and lots and lots of non sugar sweetener.

If you could have dinner with one person, dead or alive, who would it be?

Michelangelo Bonarorte.

Who's that?

Michelangelo Bonarote, the artist. Michelangelo.

Oh, okay.

Most people call him Michelangelo. My minor was in Renaissance art history in college and I with a specialty in Michelangelo. So you asked. That's why I would want to talk about all of his works.

Amazing. This is why we do the rapid fire questions. What's the number one thing you're trying to learn more about right now? Leadership, if money. Oh, did you want to continue? Sorry, did I cut you off?

No, no. Kathy was laughing at me.

If money weren't an object. So you had unlimited resources, what's the first thing you would do?

Travel.

What podcasts or books would you like to recommend to the audience?

The podcasts that I listen to are a little different. They're how things work, things you should know, things you weren't taught in school. Those. Those types of podcasts I listen to and books. Okay. We're talking leadership.

You have to recommend your own.

Oh, I guess I could recommend my own.

Books do that one too.

I have. Okay, so I have two books. Well, I actually have three. But the two that I'm recommending are the first two in the Kernels of Wisdom series. So I am the colonel's daughter. They're quotes from my father. They're kernels of wisdom. And the first book is on leadership. The second book is on Significance. The one that is in post production right now, which will be the third in the trilogy, is on accountability. So the first two are available on Amazon and from my website, the other one that I was going to recommend, not that I'm discounting my books, they're great books, but this is the Leader's Gift. It's by Barry Banther, who is just a phenomenal human being and leader.

Awesome. Those are all new recommendations. So thank you. This is the final question and I understand that I'm asking you this question and without you having the kind of, you know, 20 plus years experience that Kathy has, but what's the number one thing every contractor must do to run a successful business?

Communicate.

Done. Oh my goodness. Kathy Nielsen, thank you so much for coming back on Toolbox for the Trades. And Lauren Schieffer, thank you so much for being a first time guest. It was a pleasure to have you.

You're welcome.

Thank you.