Gulliver Giles Interview with Brad Costanzo: You Hate NOT Selling

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Proven recipes for ramping up your revenue. Now here's your host, Brad Costanzo. Alright everybody, welcome back to Bacon Wrapped Business and I am really excited to have this episode for you today. This is a topic that is probably my favorite topic. It's the reason why I got into the world of marketing and I'll explain why in just a second. But today we're going to talk about sales and that, you know, that's a very general term. But there's nothing general and nothing boring about the topic today nor my guest. So before I introduce you to Gulliver Giles here in just a second, let me explain what this episode, what you're going to get out of this episode. So back when, before I started my own business and I got into marketing and digital marketing and publishing, the reason why I did that was because I had built my entire career. I'd been in sales for, I sold advertising sales. I was a financial advisor, which is basically just selling financial advice, right? And then I sold commercial property service to CPAs and commercial property owners. And I loved selling. I loved sitting down in front of somebody and building rapport and getting them to purchase and building that relationship. What I was absolutely terrible at was marketing and lead generation and I didn't know what a sales funnel was or a marketing funnel. And I just beat myself up cold calling two hours a day in order to, I'm sorry, 200 dials a day just to get somebody on the phone back when this was done more often. And it just beat me down and I hated it. I realized I needed to learn something about marketing and lead generation. So I dove in head first and I got really good at that. And then it kind of came, came back around to selling, which is one of the things I still love to do because it's really about the relationship that you form with the people and the way that you're providing value to them. And it's one of the oldest and most honorable professions even though so many people are scared of it and think that it's evil and yucky and all of that jazz. Well, today we're going to talk a little bit about ways to do it that are incredibly effective, that will really blow your socks off if you've had any sales training at all because this will probably be a little bit different and if you never have but you've thought well maybe I could do this or maybe I couldn't, but I should, then you're going to want to listen to every single minute of this episode. Probably with some notes in hand. Because that brings us to my guest today. I want you to meet Gulliver Giles. He is one of the founders of Strategic Anarchy and it's a sales training company based over in Australia. And he's been described as the best sales trainer on the planet. I actually heard the guy who said was one of the first things that I took notice of. I was like okay, who is this guy? And he used to go by the name, still does sometimes of Thor the sales warlord and his sword of sales system and his famous Armor of God objection handling system have revolutionized the sales industry really in the best possible way. I've been through some of his training. I've seen his stuff. It is amazing. And that is why I asked him the call today. Thor Gulliver, Are you with me buddy?

Yeah brother, right here. Thanks for that awesome intro. You made me sound really awesome.

I know, right? Well, now you gotta live up to it.

So I want to buy something from me now. Hey, just.

Just give me your credit card and I'll sell you something of yours.

Sell me something back to myself. Done.

I love it. Well man, as I said, I really appreciate having you on the call today and you know, before we could go on, a lot of people will do the interview and then they'll give you the plug at the end. I want to give the plug right away. Just people want to go say alright, I just need to find out more about this. But your website is what, what is the best place for people to get a hold of you? Strategicanarchy.com or some other place.

I just sent you through something actually right now there's a link on your thing but strategic anarchy.com learn the Amor of God. There's a little online thing I'm going to be running there which is going to teach Armour of God one on one to a small group of seven people if you're interested in coming on that. And the other thing is there's my art of sales book as well which is unbouncepages.com the art of sales.

Perfect. So all those links will be in the show notes.

Yep. You got those in your little chat box there.

I see them right there. Perfect.

Cool.

So here's where I want to go with this. So I want to give people a little bit of background on what you do, who you do it for. And I definitely want to hit on the whole concept of the crown of command, the sword of sales, the armor of God and the branding you do. I think it's really brilliant. It's definitely not a boring sales training that a lot of us have sat through in the past. So give me the quick 30 second background of your sales experience.

Oh gosh, go back to when I was sort of 15, 16 years old. My whole life was getting girls to come over to my place, which often meant getting them to sneak out of their parents place.

That's where it all starts, right?

Yeah.

Convincing the ladies, convincing people to do.

Things they shouldn't do. That's where I began. Like many salespeople, I began on the dark side of the force. I think that's a sort of a malaise that we see throughout society. A lot of people have that view that sales is about manipulation and certainly sometimes people have done a lot of manipulation whilst under the guise of selling. I started there, got into music, dropped out of high school, took a lot of drugs, chased a lot more girls, Woke up at 24, bald and fat girls were running in the opposite direction. Had to cut all my hair off, get a suit, got a job. What were my skill sets? Talking to people, persuading people as a singer, as a musician, as a punk rocker. It was about influencing my audience and persuading them. So I took that skill into corporate and made a lot of money, went from promotion to promotion and woke up in my 30s. Leila, my wife, now my girlfriend then said, you hate yourself and you hate your job. I said, bullshit, fuck you, that's my penis we're talking about. You know, I've got a shiny company car and a house and a mortgage and all the things that are supposed to make you happy. And yes, I am miserable. And I was selling stuff I didn't particularly care about to people I didn't particularly care about. That didn't particularly work. I was in ad space, sales at that point. So I was selling broad spectrum advertising and it wasn't real effective and it was a changing market and the Internet was starting to boom and people weren't getting the results from it they to. So I felt bad about that. So when we got into business together and we started doing marketing training and information, product training and sales training for people, we started actually changing their business and getting them results. It changed the way I felt about sales and I began to realize sales was about loving people and helping them, not about trying to get them to give you money so that you can have money, if that makes sense.

No, it does completely got a little bit of feedback there. Okay. And I think it's better I heard my voice when I said that. But so that was one of the things that I really loved about when I, you know, after I sat down and started hearing, you know, some of your teachings. Because your Persona, at least at the time it seems like you, you, you're going now just by Gulliver Giles as as opposed to just Thor sales warlord. But the idea of Thor sales warlord, you know, the, you know, the really, you know, extremely masculine, forceful figure in the beginning I kind of thought, oh, this probably like a real pushy, forceful sales guy. Abc always be closing, you know, really hardcore. But really your core message, and you said this right up front because you have to love your customer, you have to love what you're doing. Really, really believe in it and come from a place of love. And the fact that you actually use that word, love, you didn't dumb it down with oh, you just have to respect these people. I thought that was really remarkable and it was also, I can see it's the real foundation of your training, your techniques and everything else. What would you say? What part of sales is your specialty?

Well, I think when you take off the paint job, most cars underneath all of the different shapes and sizes, there's a chassis, there's wheels, there's a drive shaft, there's a gearbox, there's an engine. I think the sale works the same every single time. You've got to get clear on your intro so that, that's attention giving intro that gets them to feel as if they are engaging with someone who's legitimate. And you've got to get clear on your probing to make sure that you figure out what their needs are. And you've got to get clear on your process so that you can give them breakthroughs around how what you've got for them is going to be what they need according to what they told you. And then you've got to get your offer right so that they're drawn irresistibly to say yes, you know what, that's actually what I need. And then you've got to handle any problems or objections which arise. And that is the same in almost every circumstance. My specific area that I really do the most in is telephone sales of high end business to business ROI based programs. What I really love to do is, you know, anything that's Going to make people money, save people money. That's really the more consultative selling of high value consulting or packages or coaching programs or property or high end things. That's what I like to be, where the most money is being made. That doesn't mean that I can't give you help with your sales if you're not a million dollar a year consultant. It just means that your sales process will be different value propositions, different breakthroughs. But there has to be the same axioms no matter what variables. I mean, we've worked in 80, 80 plus different industries. The sale is always when you strip everything off, the sale is always the same basic skeleton underneath. Just different value propositions, different breakthroughs, different, different ways of tangibilizing that value. But yeah, sales is my real passion.

That's great.

Yeah.

So. And it's kind of hard for me to sometimes ask questions I already know the answer to, but. So you've got a really interesting, you know the way that you, you branded yourself with the, you know, your crown of command, your sword of sails, your armor of God. Explain what those are kind of briefly for the audience so that if we mention those, we don't go over their head. Because I want to talk a little bit about the armor of God here in a second because that's one of the things that blew me away the most when I learned it. But explain. Yeah, kind of the genesis of this naming convention because it's definitely unconventional way to name sales training.

Okay, cool. So your crown of command is a product, but it refers to being in command of your sale. And that is made up of a number of different things. The first thing I teach is the sword of sales, which is really understanding the difference between mutilating yourself with fear and manipulation and destroying your confidence around your sale or loving your customers and respecting yourself, respecting your customers and yourself enough to tell them the truth fearlessly. Even when it means you might lose a deal but for the right reason. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

So look at the double edged broadsword. And it's got two blades. One I say, is the blade of love and one is the blade of fear. And most people who consider themselves in sales as employees are usually mutilating themselves with that blade of fear. Whether it's from a low self esteem place of worrying about the commission or worrying about whether they're too pushy or worrying about whether they'll pay their bills and being constantly in fear about that stuff. Whether it's overtly overcompensating fear where they're wanting to basically take money from people, no matter whether there's value or not, in order to fly their helicopter into a mountain of cocaine. So whether it's the kind of low self esteem worried about being too pushy or whether it's the overt overcompensation of being really doing nothing but push, always be closing, those two are both imbalanced and I believe that they're both detrimental to the salesperson and not really truly reflective of what sales actually is as a craft, as a trade, as an honorable thing. I believe the Blade of Love is about going into battle from a point of view of not being concerned with yourself and all of your needs and worries, but being concerned with slicing the fears and the issues and the demons off your clients and helping them. Yeah. So how would love sells from a place of hey, I'm not worried about getting on this phone call because I'm not worried about the end of the phone call when I close. I'm worried about getting on this phone call because I'm worried about how much I can help this person more than I'm worried about emasculating myself with fear or overcompensating and pushing someone too hard. I'm just really concerned with making sure I find out what all of their issues are so I can see if I can legitimately help them. And that's the sort of sales as a metaphor for my sales script, which is a process determining whether you can help or whether they're not a client. And it's not about trying to push them into doing anything. It's more about convincing yourself that this is something that's going to be a good thing for them.

Right. You know what's really remarkable about that as well? And it reminds me of a conversation I had with another mentor of mine in the public speaking area. I don't know if you know who Shawn Stevenson is. He's in a wheelchair, he's about 3ft tall, but he's got the wisdom of Yoda. He's an amazing guy. There's a podcast episode with Shawn Stevenson on the site. I'll send you a link to it and anybody else can check it out. Put a link in the show notes as well. He teaches people how to give these amazing standing ovation style public speeches, but he also teaches people how to get over their fear of public speaking, which is everybody knows that's one of the biggest common fears. The trick he has is exactly like what you said, only used in a different way. He said, if you're getting up on stage and you're nervous and you're about to speak and you're really, really nervous, it's for one of two reasons. Either one, you don't know your shit and you're about to be embarrassed because you don't know what you're going to talk about. He goes, I'm going to assume that that's. You're not getting up to speak about something you don't know about. So if you're still nervous, it's because you're being a selfish prick. You're thinking too much about yourself. You're thinking, how is this person going to view me? How is this person going to. Am I going to be polished? Am I going to look great? Are they going to love me? As opposed to getting up there. If you're going to give a spe thinking I have information that's going to help the people in this audience, and I don't care how I deliver it, as long as I care enough about these people to deliver it to them in a way that they get it. And he says, when you start to do that, you immediately lose the fear of how you'll be perceived, because you're coming from a place of love, of service, of, you know, I don't care about me, I just care about you. And I sense the same exact philosophy with what you're doing and how that can remove that sales fear, getting on the phone and talking to somebody.

And it's so funny that you should say that because that leads perfectly into the next step of my system, which is called the crown, which is really what the Crown of Command is all about, which is the mindset of having that service, love, ethos. And what we talk about is something called the Shield of Perseus. And I can't remember whether I trained you in this or not.

Yes, I think so. Yes.

But yeah. So the Shield of Perseus is about understanding the mirror. And you know, the legend of Percy is he goes to slay the Medusa, the Gorgon, the chick with the snakes for hair, and she has his power to paralyze people into a block of stone. And if you are a salesperson, you have been on that call, you've been in that meeting where you get thrown a curveball. You get thrown a question you don't know the answer to, or a problem you don't feel as if you can solve, and you freeze up into a block of stone, too. And I think it's particularly pertinent to the salesperson this mythos of The Medusa, you know, if you look into her eyes and become sucked into her power, you would freeze up into a block of marble. So how do we avoid that? Perseus polished his shield until it shone like the sun, and he used the mirror to defeat the monster. He looked into the mirror, not into her eyes. And here is the trick with sales. Whether it's from stage, face to face, on the phone, or wherever you're selling, it's about not fearing, not becoming drawn into the fear, but by looking clearly at the mirror. And having the mirror is, I suppose, a metaphor for the mindset that you must have. So this is a write it downer for those of you listening. We have a perception about how things are going to be when we get on stage, when we get on the phone, when we go to this meeting and we turn that into a projection. We get on stage and we are so scared that we stutter and we stumble and we miss things and we screw it up because we're so caught up in our own bullshit that we're not really thinking about the people who we're supposed to be helping. And then we cop the reflection. The audience boos. The guy walks out of the meeting not having bought from us. The dude hangs up on us. Because we go so focused on our own limitations and fears, not on what we're going to achieve. The way to reverse that in sales is as easy as reversing the order in which it occurs. So instead of being in a position where we have this perception weighing so heavily on us, which is not real. Yeah. And then we get projecting that out into the world and copying it straight back in the face and freezing up and freaking out. Instead of being at the mercy of our perception, what we need to do is we need to be the accurate reflection of the projection of others so that we can change their perception. We need to be.

Yeah, repeat that. So we need to be accurate reflection.

Of the projections of others so that we can show them and reflect them those projections and say, look at what you're doing to yourself here. And change their perception ethically and authentically. So when we go onto a sales call, people are so concerned with closing. I want to close like a boss. I want to buy a Lamborghini and down a few quaaludes and smash that car into a tree. This is what I think that being a salesperson is all about. Making all the money. Well, yes and no. What it's really all about is really being concerned with getting that initial entry point with that person right by giving them your attention and caring about them and making them feel attended to and giving them your interest and being interested in them and finding out about them and giving them a clear picture of just how much you desire to help them and then calling them to take the action that you give them from you and take that action and take that forward into the world and do something with it. But only then does the objection handling and the closing become something that is important. We're so worried about the end of the process. We're not even thinking about what's going to be the start of the process. And the sale is made in that first 10 minutes where we open the sale. We open that person up and find out all about them and help them. Closing is easy if you've opened the door in the first place. You can't close a door that isn't open.

That's a tweetable writer downer too. That's so important. I love the symbology though, like the shield of Perseus. And I can see people about to go into a sales presentation and thinking about that, okay, I've got to polish my shield. I've got to do that. It can almost be like this mental ritual that folks can do prior to that.

Dude. Only a couple years ago in La Jolla, I got up on stage and was teaching at one of Frank Kern's events, which he kindly.

I was there. That's where we first met. Yeah.

Very, very kind man. Very, very sweet, decent person for all. People talk about millionaires being evil and being liars. I have never met a more lovely, decent, generous, kind, trustworthy man. He's amazing. And I have nothing but nice things to say about him. He's personally changed my life on so many levels and made me so aware of how I could be more wealthy and more helpful and do better work for others. So got up on stage to sell a program in partnership with Frank. And it was an expensive program. It was a six figure program. And I was freaking out a little bit because it was a little bit outside my comfort zone. It was the biggest thing that I'd ever, ever kind of sold. And I was freaking out the night before. I said to Leela, you know, I'm a bit scared. I mean, what if I get up in front of all these important clients and I let Frank down because I don't do the right job and they don't want to buy it and we don't make any money and it's an embarrassment and a failure? What if I fuck it up? She's like, darling, you're going to do the same thing you always do. You're going to get up on stage, dress like a Viking, you're going to make them laugh, you're going to take them through a bunch of breakthroughs, you're going to change their way of feeling about sales and they're going to take away the value from that or they're going to buy from you or they're not. And if they don't, then it's okay. And if they don't, then it is what it is. And I'm like, yeah, you're right, I need to focus on just doing the value for them. It's not just you. If you're listening to this and you freak out about getting on the phone, I do too. And I make millions of dollars a year for my clients and for myself. I still freak out about stuff. It's not, it never goes away, but it's about how you learn to deal with it and dance with that fear. As Tony Robbins would say, dancing with that fear instead of being, you know, crushed down by it or driven into a dark hole of self mutilation or, you know, using it to hurt others with, to, you know, to be that kind of pushy, horrible, criminal fraud salesperson that we're so frightened of being. As long as you're focused on them, loving them, helping them, you can't fuck it up too badly.

Yeah, it's, it's really, it's so true. And like you said, just shine the light on them. Don't think too much about the end, because the end takes care of itself if you do it, if you do all the other steps correctly. It kind of brings me back to back when I was single and I was. I'd be out talking to a girl, maybe at a bar, coffee shop, whatever, where a lot of guys would get really, really nervous and thinking, oh my God, I got to go talk to that girl, get her phone number. And they're already thinking about either sex usually, or relationships or how do I get there to be my girlfriend, go on a date. I completely removed all of my nerves by doing the next step. And then also my success by simply my only goal, if I walked up and talked to a girl was to do one thing and that's to get her to ask me what my name is. So I would never go up and introduce myself. Hey, I'm Brad. I'd like, you know, what's your name? Because I just wanted to be thought of as interesting or charming enough to where she was curious enough to just go, hey, what's your name? And the minute she did that, then I, you know, that was just. I'd go to the next step. But if I walked up constantly thinking, hey, how am I going to get this girl in bed or on a date or whatever, you know, she can smell that. And I'm probably not going to be focused on her being charming, making her want to know a little bit more about me. And the same thing I've done in sales as well, where I'm focused so much on that other person and what they need that they really realize that, like, man, you're asking me some great questions. You really must know what you're talking about. What is it you sell again? And the minute they ask you, what is it you're selling, it's great because you're not leading off with that. And now you've piqued their curiosity. And I've used kind of the same general theory. It's not the exact same thing, but it's definitely worked for me. And it's in the same spirit of what you're talking about.

I think what you're talking about is giving to get. Like, I mean, you look at Collier, the old copywriter from way back, wrote the Aida formula for advertising and marketing and sales, which is get their attention, get their interest, get their desire, get their action. And I think that just a slight twist on that. Give them your attention, give them the interest, be interested, give them a desire to want to do more with you, and give them an action to take that will allow them to achieve their goals through doing more with you. And you're there. But it's got to be about you giving it to them. It can't be taking it from them or you can't make anyone do freaking anything. There's a lot of dudes out there selling the great rohypnol? Nl seduction or the great rohipnol? Nlp sales technique. There's a lot of people out there selling the sale that isn't really a sale. There's a lot of people out there rolling turds in glitter. The problem is sales is not a turd to be rolled in glitter. Sales is gold. If it's about helping someone else make a decision for themselves about something that's going to help them. And the people who insist on trying to treat sales like it is a turd to be rolled in glitter, if you see them out in the marketplace, what they're telling you is they believe sales is actually a Bad thing. And that they're saying that sales is actually a big old lie and that sales is about defrauding people. And sales is ugly. And if they're trying to sell you that, it shows you their limitations. Sales is about giving people attention, giving people interest, caring about them, desiring to help them, and giving them actions to get themselves their results. And if you're doing anything else, I put it to you that you're not selling. You're just fucking with people for money.

Yeah, manipulate that. That's where manipulation comes in. Because a lot of people think sales is manipulation. Sales is slimy, sales is sleazy. I feel gross doing it. Or like I feel like I'm just getting money for nothing. Well, yeah, if you. If you feel like you're getting their money and you didn't deliver, then it is. You are manipulating them.

Probably should get out of sales and go back to being, you know, third grade teacher or whatever makes you feel good and that you love. But the difference between manipulation and persuasion is intent. Manipulation is about going out to get. I'm going to go up to that girl, put Rohypnol in her drink and take her home against her will. That's manipulative, horrible, evil crap. You know, sales is about persuading someone, using what they've told you they need and aligning it ethically and authentically, legitimately with something you can actually do to help them and saying, look, here's how this can help you. And when they wobble, showing them that the likely outcome of them not doing it is going to be hurtful to them and the outcome of them doing it is likely to be good for them and asking them to make a decision on that basis and clarifying that for them. And that's really what the armor of God's all about. It's not about making anyone do anything. Frank says, you know, the armor of God is the simple system to turn a yes into a sorry, a no into a yes in five minutes. I love him as a copywriter and I appreciate what he's saying, but it's actually not just about that. It's a system to figure out whether the maybe is a no or a yes or whether the yes is a no or the no is a yes. It's all of those things. There's two boxes on my desk, yes and no, and I don't much care which you fall into, but there is no maybe. And the armor of God. At the end of the armor of God, if you've done it properly, you get off the armor of God. And you're like, right, that guy was a no. And I was never going to sell to him. And it would have been a mistake to do so.

But you find out quick and you.

Walk with your head up. Yeah.

And you don't feel like, well, I'm a failure because I failed to persuade him. No, you figured out that he was never going to buy or it wasn't right for him. You did everything you could to serve him, and it wasn't right.

Precisely. So you did everything you could to help him. And he fought for his limitations more than he was prepared to fight to grow. And you offered to fight by his side to help him grow, but he fought you to hold on to his limits. And you said, you know what? This guy's a dick. I'm moving on. There's three ways the sales conversation should end. Number one, you end the call because you know it's a bad client and it's not going to be good. You don't have to be rude about it, but you don't have to stay on the call. Number two is they hang up on you because you won't give up on them. And you know, their bullshit excuses are just that. And you're there to help them. And you're not going to give up or take no for an answer. You say, dude, you're going to have to hang up on me because I know I can help you. So if you're not going to buy from me, you're going to have to hang up the phone and they hang up and you know, and it's good, and you move forward. Or they buy from you and you help them. Those are the only three ways you should end a conversation. Should be like, you're like, brad, look, I'm sorry. Based on all of your conversation with me over the last hour and a half, you've convinced me that this is not for you because you have so many limitations that you want to cling to. And I can't help you. So thank you for your time. If that changes, maybe in the future, maybe we can have another conversation. But right now, this is just not for you. Thank you so much. Bye. Bye. Number two is Brad won't say no, but Brad won't say yes. And I just keep doing the armor of God until he finally hangs up because he knows he wants it, he knows he should do it, he knows he needs it, but he can't deal with it and he moves on. And I don't feel bad because I didn't give up. I didn't give up on him. He gave up on himself. Number three is Brad says, you know what? Fuck it, here's my Visa card. Let's do this.

Yeah, those are the fun ones.

Yeah, well, they're all fun. Yeah. The process. The process is the fun.

Yeah, yeah, it really is. And once you, once you dial it in and you understand that it can be a process without being a strict script. So like I found, you know, you have formulas, but it's not say exactly this, say exactly that, like stick to the script verbatim. It's understand why what we're doing here and be responsive to them in a way that sticks to the formula. And you know, you're especially with the armor of God. Now might be a good time to kind of go into some of the parts of that. Because I was going to ask you, I guess, two questions. Number one is what is the most. When you go into and you work with somebody who's already in sales. Right. Because I'm sure you train some people who have never really done sales, but they feel like they want to. But then I imagine that most of the people you work with, especially when it's companies, is you're helping them improve a sales system that's either broken or nowhere near its potential. So when you go and start working with somebody, what's usually the very first thing that you notice or the most common thing that they're just doing totally wrong, that you're able to come in and tweak quickly?

Well, look, usually I find they have no script, they have no system, they have no objection handling cycle. They're just kind of asking it most often from the guys who are scared of it. And they're asking it because they don't know what to do because they never invested in themselves. To the guys who are great but have no systems, even the biggest corporations in the world, and there are some big ones, their sales approach is not as heavily systemized as it needs to be. I've had really, really big software companies come to us and not sell us stuff for months. Like where you use phrases like excellent soldiers and they say, right, well, I'm going to send you an email.

Oh, Jesus.

I think that's the biggest thing. There's no structure in place that forces the salesperson to be accountable for themselves.

Yeah, they just tell the salesperson, hey, here's all the features and benefits of our product. Go out and see if you can get somebody to give us money for it.

And they're just horrible they're just horrible. And you're saying things like, great, how do we get started? Great, I'm sold. And they're like, well, I'll get my design manager to call you and talk about all the other options to do with social media, and we'll talk to you next month.

It's no wonder people, a lot of people who've done sales and maybe failed at it or just had medium success hate it, because it can be like pulling teeth if you don't have some kind of a system or structure to it.

Correct. This is everything. If you don't have a process, I like to say your process. This is a write it down. Your process is the proof of the profit of your product. If you don't have a process that takes them through step by step, how it's going to work for them, which proves it to them, then you're screwed. You're leaving money on the table. You're leaving hundreds, thousands, millions on the table. If you're not doing that every week.

Nice. Repeat that so folks can write it down.

The process is the proof of the profit of your product. Whether that's a hard profit, like, you know, I'm going to make you $1,000 more, or whether it's, I'm going to save you $1,000. Whether it's a soft thing like, you know, I'm going to increase your mobility in your joints and make you feel more wellness. You need to better tangibilize that through breakthrough, through process. That's what my sales script is really all about. It's not just, you know, it's not about being a micromanaging script Nazi, although I'm sure there are people in the next room who think I am after the last few days about getting that process working, so they understand the underlying skeleton of what has to happen every single time. So there's a difference between axioms and variables. Right? Variables will always be variables. Things will always. You're in real estate, you're in cars, you're in, you know, selling footwear. But the axioms are always the same. You have to give that customer attention. You have to get them to actually understand that you are trying to give them the opportunity to change something. Yeah. You have to give them interest and be psychopathically, optimistically interested about them, and you have to actually give them your desire to help. Here's how I think I can help. Here's what it's going to do. Do you agree this would be a good outcome for you? Yes. Great. Well, in that case, here's how much it's going to cost. Visa card or MasterCard. You have to give them an action to take and then you have to handle any problems that come up. You have to have an objection handling process.

Yeah, that's an area that I've seen both with clients that I've worked with in myself in the very beginning, years ago, not having an objection handling process and then seeing yours. A lot of people put no attention on the objection handling process. They get really defensive and they'll either argue or they will completely shut down because they think that the objection that the person has is a very legitimate objection. They're like, oh, well, you know, I don't know if I can afford it right now. And they go, okay, well sorry, maybe call us back when you can. And they just get off because they don't want to deal with that. They don't want to dive deeper into the reason for the objection, which oftentimes is, you know, you know very well the reason for the objection isn't necessarily the real reason. And it could just be what they think it is. And that objection can easily be overcome if they had more information or if they looked at it from a different perspective. So give the listeners kind of just what the foundation of the armor of God is and why it's so effective.

There's five key objections. Number one, money. Number two, time. Both of those are like the Adam and Eve of objections. They are the mom and dad of objections. They are value based objections. The other objections are what I would call deferral, smokescreen objections. So partner or other. I need to talk to my boss, my dog, my wife, my husband, my psychic, aunt or whatever. I need to pray, I need to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? Other objection, partner objection. Then there's info. I need more information. I need time to go and consider the information. I need to do more research. I need to avoid taking action in order to try and analyze information that I have which says that I'm never going to do anything with this because I have done nothing with it yet and I never will. And I have a lot of evidence that that's the case. I'm going to go and spend my time looking at all that evidence that I can't do anything ever again. And I'm going to keep focusing on what I can't do and how I can't do it. Partner information and of course trust and credibility. I need to see how everyone else has done this. I need to see all your testimonials. I want to Ring every single client. I want to know what your success rate is. I don't.

How many credentials do you have behind your name?

I don't know if I trust you to give you my credit card. What they're really saying is I don't trust myself. All of those objections are lies. Every single one of them is not true. Understand this. Write it down. All objections are excuses. All excuses are. All objections are lies. All objections are lies. And there are those of you freaking the fuck out right now. What if I really don't have the money? What if I really can't find the time? What if I really need more information? What if I really want. Okay, cool. So the real money. Objection. The truth is I don't have the money. But I want this so badly that I'm going to go and find the money. The fake money. Objection is I don't have the money. But what I really mean is I'm not going to do nothing about this. I could find the money because there's money everywhere. And even in the poorest neighborhood in this country, there's a junkie doing three grand worth of heroin a week. And he's finding the money. People always find the money for things they want to do. I could make the money. I could sell some shit on ebay. I could make an extra sale in my business. I could find the cash to do it. And just a secret between you and me, every program I've ever bought off anyone, ever, everything I've ever done was from money I did not have and had to go and make. And it's probably the same with just about everyone I know who's a six figure or seven figure earner. You do the decision making. You decide to do it. You find the money to fund it, you make the money to fund it. That's how it always works.

Yeah. If they say I don't have the money, more often than not, what they really mean is, yeah, I don't want it. I don't want it enough to get off my butt to go get the money. And one of the best proofs of that is you'll see people who can barely pay rent walking around with an iPhone. If you want that thing bad enough, you will find a way to get it. You'll go into debt, you'll do whatever because you value it. You're like, oh my God, I gotta have the newest, you know, Nike sneakers. I've gotta have the best iPhone. I gotta keep on upgrading even though I'm late to my landlord. I mean, that's proof that people will find money for things they want if they want it bad enough. And if they're saying that you either haven't done a good job of describing what you have to sell or they really just don't want it.

Or they're bullshitting themselves, which is more often the case than either of those. So what I would say is like, I had a pt, a personal trainer come to me who had a gym. He was doing about half a million dollars. He came to me, said, I really want to do your residential, where we have nine days. We force you to get on the phone. People make half a million dollars in sales in that period of time or more. He really wanted to come. And back then, it was really cheap. It was only 15 grand. And at the last minute, his then girlfriend shafted him. All his PayPal accounts got shut down. He got ripped off for a whole bunch of cash. He had to sell his car. He sold his BMW in order to be there. And he hands over this big chunk of cash to us the day he shows up. That same time, this guy came to me and said, I want to learn from you, personal trainer. And he said, I really want to learn from you. I said, okay, good, this is how much it is. And then he said, I don't have the money for that. And the next day on his Facebook page, I saw he bought a brand new car. So that guy, no one knows who he is. The dude who became my client, came to my event, sold $110,000 worth of stuff that week, and then went on to sell another 47 products at $10,000 each in the following month. Made about a half a million dollars, doubled his business within 30 days.

Bought himself a new car pretty quickly, didn't he?

Well, this is the thing. Cars don't make money, but knowledge does. So the guy who was convinced he could do it found the money. The guy who wasn't went and spent the money that he lied to me about not having on a car. So they're always, and you see this all the time in sales. They're always lying to you, not because it's personal to you, but they're lying to themselves about what they're capable of doing and what they're not. So the big money. Objection. The real one is, I don't have it, but I'm going to damn well sell my car. I'll do whatever it takes because that's how badly I want this. The fake one is I don't have the money, but I'm not really prepared to do anything about it. So your job with the armor of God is to figure out which one of those that you're dealing with. Okay. Time I don't have the time means I am not going to make the time to do this. Because everyone creates the time for what they want. I've created the time to be on this interview. I could be making sales in my own business. I could be talking to my guys. But I value the exposure this interview has for my message and the ability to serve you, my friend, to help me, to help you, to help each other, and to help our clients. I value this more than anything else right now. So I made the time. No, no, no. But this is the thing. This is the thing.

Money.

Time times money. But if you don't make the time, you will not make the money. The fake time objection is I don't have the time. The real time objection is I don't have the time, but I'm damn well going to carve it out of it. I will squeeze blood out of the sun. I'll get up earlier, I'll go to bed later, I'll stop watching television. I'll make the time to do this because I have to do it.

Yeah, it's funny, time management. I've mentioned this on another podcast in the past, and I didn't come up with this concept, but when you realize this concept, it can change your entire viewpoint about this. That there is no such thing as time management. It doesn't exist. Nobody can manage time. We all have 24 hours in a day. The only thing we can manage is activity. So time management is really activity management. So I can shuffle things around. And now I have time to do X. But I've never managed time. I just manage what I'm doing with it. So I've caught myself doing that exact same thing, saying, man, I don't have time to do this. Well, yes, I do. If I stop doing X, I've got time to do that. And it's just such a little simple shift that I did years ago after probably reading it in a book. Maybe it'll help some people out there, but. But it's true. It just proved that. Yeah, it's an excuse.

That's it. And same goes for information. I don't have enough information. Means I'm confused, But I'm not prepared to tell you what I'm confused about, because I want to get off the phone. Not I'm confused, but I know I need to not be confused. And the only way I'm really not going to be confused is to do something about this and start analyzing from an educated point of view, the changes rather than analyzing what I don't know about what I don't know.

Right. I got to tell you this. This is a quick little quip. You'll appreciate this, but hopefully it'll be as painful for you to hear as it was for me. So I was working with a client and I was helping them with their, you know, I was taking a look at their sales process and saying, okay, well, what are you doing here?

Blah, blah, blah.

And I was talking to. He has a couple salespeople and I was asking them, well, how do you handle objections? What if somebody says, yeah, I need more information? So these people had a webinar that typically the people would get onto the webinar or whatever, and that's where, you know, then they would ask to be called, etc. You know, just a very standard process. Well, the salespeople were saying, well, let me send you a replay link for the webinar. You can watch that. And then we will get back on the. Let's schedule a time to get back on the phone after you've watched the webinar as opposed to just getting even, asking them, well, what more information do you really, you know, do you want? What do you need? What, what about this don't you understand? And I was just cringing. I was like, you got the person on the phone, you're seriously telling them to go watch a webinar either again or to get the information they need? I was dumbfounded, but it shows out there. Like you said, people don't have a process. They don't have a system and they're just winging it.

And they live in fear. They live in fear that they are not enough. And the webinar or the email or the website or the other form of the media is going to do the job for them. And that money will someday reign from the imaginary skull if we just put them back through the webinar cycle. Then they'll buy. No, they fucking won't.

Yeah, I'm dying to know the stats of. I don't even need to ask the stats of how many people who left for that reason ever came back and bought. And I guarantee it's zero.

Yeah, look, you know, I guess what it comes back to for me isn't really the outcome. I don't really care whether they bought or not after the thing I care about the gutlessness of not fucking trying to even help people and solve Their problems in the fucking miles of justification that pour out of people's mouths like diarrhea. Of all the reasons why.

Yeah, it's a great point.

Do you know what I mean? Like, it's like, you know what, man? Wouldn't you rather just feel good about yourself by trying to help that person? If they say no, that's cool, and if they say yes, then great, but at least you can walk with your head up instead of being a pussy your whole life.

Well, and it shows the laziness of. If they say, well, I don't really have enough information. Well, go watch this. It shows you're too lazy to help this person find out. You don't even care enough to ask, well, what is it you want to know? I'm here to help you. I'm here to tell you. But.

And that's what the shield of perseus this is perception, is that they are going to do worse than the webinar, because the webinar is so awesome. But the person's watched it once, didn't really pay attention to it. What does that tell you? The information is a smokescreen for the real problem. They don't see the value. Same with trust. Same with credibility. Hey, I want to see all these other things from other people about how you got them results. Well, that's great. I can show you those. But you've already done your due diligence. You've come through my funnel, you've come through my webinar. You've already heard the testimonials. You're still not sure correct yet. Yes. Good. I want to reward you for saying that because it tells me you're never going to be sure. And I want to reassure you, the only reason you're ever going to be sure is after you've bought this, after you've done the work, after you've done the return on investment, then you're going to be sure. Right now you should be scared because right now you're not doing the work. You don't know what I know, and you're not getting the results. And nothing's going to change until that changes. So there's two ways this can go. You can get off this phone to go and analyze all the information that's freely available on the Internet and do nothing with it and make no money. Or you can come in, put some skin in the game, take a little bit of a risk, do something, be courageous, take action, back yourself into a corner and make bloody money. Guess which one of those people is going to get a result. Do you want to be the guy that gets the result?

Yes.

That's your Armor of God.

Now, I want to address the listeners here for a second, because what Gulver just said probably sounded like, oh, my God, that was genius. That was really smooth and slick. And he just came up that off the top of his hat. And, man, I would buy from him. That was great. He just explained the Armor of God. And if you're really, really good, you should be listening to this, breaking down every sentence he did. But what I want you to know as an insider, because I've been through the Armor of God, is there is a formula that he just went through, and I'm not going to give it away because this is some really highly prized intellectual property of his, but that you can learn from Gulliver for a price. What he just did can be done, mastered, and learned by anybody, even if you think, man, there's no way I could be that smooth. So I just wanted to kind of say that on your behalf, Gulliver, because I know that that probably went over the heads of a lot of people, some of the things that you were doing there and how you were doing it. And there is a formula that folks can use.

Brad, to be honest, I really appreciate your respect for my intellectual property. And you know what? I would love to give that as a gift on this call. And if anyone wants to buy something from me and learn with me and have my context and my coaching and my teaching, they can have that, too. But I would love to give them that formula now, if you're okay with that.

Dude, that's amazing. So this podcast alone, the value just went sky high. I hope you guys realize that. So feel free.

I think when it comes, there's no lack in the world. There'd be some people on this call that go away, use this, and make money from it, and get success, feed their families, help their clients, and never pay me a cent. And I'm fucking fine with that. And there'll be some people on this call that do this, don't use it, come to me and say, I'm scared to use this. I need help, and they'll buy something from me. And there's some people on this call that will do it, use it, make money from it, come to me and say, dude, this shit's epic. What else have you got for me? So I don't care. Like, I know this is going to be more money for me and more money for everyone on this call if I just share this with you and trust that you guys, some of you really want help, will reach out to me. Some of you won't. I don't really care. I'm going to make more money anyway. Yeah, absolutely. So step number one, Armor of God. Active. Listen. I hear what you're saying, Brad, and it sounds a lot like you're saying you don't have a lot of money right now. And I really hear what you're saying. Step two, reward. I want to reward you for saying that. Step three, reassure. I want to reassure you, dude. Most of the people come to me, don't have shit, Tons of money. They aren't very good at sales, and for that reason, they need help, and they come to me needing help, but they don't have a lot of money, so they're kind of in a bit of a double bind. So what I've done there first three steps are the nine steps. Bear with me. Write this shit down. Active. Listen. Is about making them feel heard, which means demonstrating to them that you have listened to them actively by telling them back what they said. So, Brad, I hear what you're saying, and what I'm really hearing is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah that you said. Is that correct? Trial close. Right? Trial close. Is that correct or. Yeah, or correct. Or give them a reason to interact and make them feel part of the process. I throw one of those in at the end of everything. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Correct. Mm. Yeah. Feel me. Okay, good. Got me. Did you hear that? Is that right? Is that correct? At the end of each one of those, I'll salt in season just to make sure they're still with me. Right. So, Brad, I hear what you're saying, and you've got a problem with money right now. And I want to really thank you and I want to reward you for bringing that up because, you know, being a proud, entrepreneurial man, we all go through this. There's some weeks where you've got $50,000 in the account. There's some weeks where you're negative $0.67 because you had to pay all these people. Because it takes money to make money. Does it? Does. Exactly. Thank you. So I want to reward you for being honest. Why are we rewarding him? Because if he's being honest with us about one of his objections, he might have more objections. And I want him to bring out all of his stupid excuses so I can crush them all into dirt. And when they're all dead and I've beaten them all into the ground with my hammer of Thor, then there'll be nothing left except the credit card. So I want him to feel good about talking to me. So I'm going to reward him. Then I'm going to reassure him that it's okay. It's not just him. It's me and everybody else. We all have this problem. It's not a big deal. So those are the first three steps real quickly.

Yeah, go ahead. So active listening, reward.

Make them feel good about telling you things. Reassure them. It's not just them. Everyone has this shit. They shouldn't be embarrassed or ashamed of it.

And the cool thing about the rewarding part and where that's unique is most times when the objection comes up, that's when the salesperson immediately goes on the defensive mode. And now you've got a. There's a conflict. Right. So the objection comes out. That's the beginning of the conflict. And then the way the salesperson reacts perpetuates the conflict. And you don't do that. You neutralize it right there by rewarding them and that it's completely unexpected. It paves the way for the next steps. And I just want folks to understand just how genius that little tweak there really is.

That's the thing. People like people who like them and make them feel good and make them feel understood and make them feel loved. People don't like people arguing with them and slapping the shit out of them. Now I'm going to do some slapping later on in this call, later on in the armor of God there. It does get a little bit slappy, but I build the permission to do that through the whole call and at the end and through really making them feel heard, active listening them, rewarding them, and reassuring them. Now. Now it starts to get a little bit heavier. The next step is remind. Brad, I want to remind you, in the last half hour, we talked about your circumstance with your family and how you want to be a better partner and a better father and a better provider. You talked about the frustration in your business, about your lack of leads, your lack of sales, your lack of money. You talked about this. This is the reason that you came to me. Yeah. So I want to just realign you. Step five, realign you. I just want to realign you with that for a moment. Forget about your lack of credit card funds right now. Look at what's really going on here. I've given you the golden keys to everything. We need to change this. And you're saying I don't have money. I know. I don't care. What are we going to do about it. There's two stories now I want to tell you. I want to reframe you. Step six. Reframe. I want to reframe you a little bit. The first story is a little bit depressing. But listen, hear me through. Once upon a time, there was a brave guy by the name of Brad Costanza. He was working hard, he was kicking ass, but he was always in a cash flow pinch because his sales sucked and he knew it. So he came to the mentor who was this world renowned mentor. He took an hour of his time and together they came up with a plan to make six or seven figures more. And it came the time at the end of the call to invest. And Brad was so crushed down and depressed and fearful, he could not see a way beyond his immediate cash flow problems. So instead of trying to think of one, he freaked the fuck out and got off the phone. And that's a very depressing story. And that's where that story ends. And you can pretty much bet that that version of Brad in that alternative timeline, in that dark timeline, he's still broke and he's still pissed off and it's worse. Let me tell you a different story. This is a more positive story. Once upon a time, there was a hero, a warrior, a guy named Brad, who was sick of it. He was sick of not having any money. And he spat in the face of fear and he spat in the face of the devil. And he said, I'm going to freaking change this. He said, gulliver, here's my last X dollars on my card. I will drain out my card. I will go find more money. I will jerk off the dog to feed the cat. I will freaking, I will sell my car. I will do what it takes. I will back myself into a corner and I will never surrender. I will fight. Which Brad, do you reckon wins? I love that contrast.

Well, it's contrast, but you're also disassociating them. You're putting them in a story. So now they get to imagine they're picturing something. They're out of the sales conversation. They're into a story, they're seeing it, they're feeling it. And you just change their state completely for the next step.

That's the future paced reframe, Reframing around the story, using the story to reframe them, using future pacing. This is what's likely going to happen if you keep behaving like this. This is what's likely going to happen. Rip that off. Tony Robbins, the Dickens process, right? So next step Contrast. So, Brad, which Brad do you want to be? Do you want to be Brad who stays frustrated and broke? Are you going to be Brad who fights? Because if you ain't got any fight in you, I can't help you. But if your Brady wants to fight, we will win. 100% of the people get in the ring have a chance of winning. You get knocked down, you get back up, I will fight with you. If you're fighting for wealth and freedom, I cannot fight your limitations. I cannot fight your limitations if you're not willing to fight them with me.

Yep. And now you've just made it about something much bigger than the sale. You've made it about my identity.

Correct.

And you've only given me two choices. I only get two paths to take. I either get to be A or B. And both of the whatever I choose says a lot about how I view myself.

And if you say, hey, look, there's another path, and I'm like, okay, tell me what that is. And you're like, well, it's the path where I go away and think about. It's like, dude, that path leads to being Brad number one. Yeah. Brad number two is done thinking about it. Brad two is ready to get his knuckles bloody fighting for his future. And I can only work with Brad number two. So do you want to be Brad number two or do you want to be excuse making guy?

I want to be Brad number two.

Well, if you don't, those are all trial closes. Right. And the other trial close that I would then probably pop in is, look, how would it feel beating this cash flow problem? How would it feel putting that extra 10, 20, 30, $50,000 in the bank every month? How would it feel coming home knowing that all of your bills were paid, Being able to take your wife on that holiday? How would that feel? Yeah. So is that worth a bit of short term pain and scuttling and scuffling and getting in the bootstrapping street fighting? Fight for your life to actually make those sales. Is it worth it? Because I will fight by your side if you think it's worth it.

And at that point, if they say it's not worth it, they disqualified themselves.

Take away. It's not for you. Yeah. This is not for you. I can only fight with fighters. I can only teach eagles to fly higher. I do not teach turkeys to flap their wings and pretend to be eagles. So if you're a turkey and you want to stay a turkey, stay a turkey.

Yeah, I've got better things to do. And Better people to do it with.

Yeah, love you, want to help you, but only if you're an eagle. Only if you want to. Only if you can. If you want to be a Can't spend your whole life being with Cants and be a cant and talk about how much you can't, then don't. If you want to do it, you want to make this work, you got to be an eagle. You could be a warrior. You got to be a lion. You got to be like the baddest motherfucker in the valley. And that is easy if you make the choice to do so. And it's hard if you think about it, because thinking about it ain't made you the money doing it. So, hey, if you want to do it, visa card or MasterCard. Hard close, last step, step number nine, hard close. So run it through from the top, active, listen, reward, reassure, remind, realign, reframe, contrast, trial, close, hard close.

And then the beauty of this is if you get to the end to the, you know, are you ready to go? The reaction is usually, yes, here's my information. Or they give you another objection. Like if they were giving you, I need more information, they go, well, I just don't know if I have the money for it. Okay. You repeat the exact same formula with their new objection.

And what starts to happen is they start to realize you're just going to keep doing it. Yeah.

Until they give you a solid yes.

Or no, you're gonna keep doing it until they say yes or no. And then they either hang up on you or they decide to step into their future.

Yeah. It's one or the other. Like you said, it's an amazingly efficient process. And I love the fact that I learned it. I love the fact even more that you just shared it openly with people. And if they're smart, they'll take this and really digest it and take it to heart and think about, if you're in sales, where could you be using this? How could you be using it better? How can you integrate it into what you're doing? And that's really just the tip of the iceberg of the stuff that I've seen you teach, from your scripting to the armor of God to all this. But it really does take a lot of the sales fear away when people have a plan and a formula and some of that philosophy behind it. So it's not this stale, old school sales strategies that just say, oh, here's how you. Here's the things you say and how you say them and blah, Blah, blah. I mean you really do kind of enlist a person's emotion and imagination behind that. So definitely powerful. I want to ask you a quick question. Not so much about the sales and the scripting process, but the lead generation. So most of the people, or at least yours, is maybe a different. So let's talk about with a lot of the folks that you train and some of these are big corporations. I don't about want to talk, talk to, you know, talk about that. Like people who have 50 person sales floors necessarily, although if they employed your stuff it'd be amazing. But let's just say the average consultant, small business owner person who's out there trying to do this and looking for how to get these people on the phone, you don't have to go into a ton of detail on this, but you've got a pretty good sales funnel process right where you do, you know, cold advertising. I mean, you get this to work for relatively cold leads. This is not just hot leads that this works for, am I right?

I woke up this morning and 40 people had come in last night having downloaded my book and I have more leads. I have like a hundred leads have come in the last week, more than I can literally get to because I'm constantly training and on these sorts of interviews. I've done three of these sorts of interviews in the last couple of days and I'm just constantly being interviewed. I hardly ever get time to sell anymore. We have more leads than we need. It's really pissing me off actually.

It's a good problem to have though. It's one of those problems you don't mind having too much, but it's better than the alternative. What book are they downloading?

The Art of Sales. It's basically an amalgam of all of my Facebook posts, my most salient philosophical points and motivational posts. I never really took it very seriously. But this multi, multimillionaire friend of mine the other day contacted me. He's like, my God, thank you so much for this book. And I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, well, I was going through this really tough time where I had been beaten down really badly by this client who was not a good client. And they really, really treated me poorly and I let them and I didn't draw the line with them. And I was on the plane late at night writing a proposal to them and I got really upset and I got off the computer and I picked up my Kindle and I said, I'm going to read Gulliver's book. And one of the things it says in the book is that you are not for sale. Your product is for sale, your service is for sale, your coaching is for sale. But you are not for sale. Your self respect is never for sale, never for any amount of money. And he fired that client the very next day.

Probably felt amazing.

Oh yeah, he made room in his business. People say that when God closes a door, he opens a window. That is the biggest load of shit ever. When God closes the door, about 50 more doors open, bigger doors, better doors, with cooler things behind them. And when Johan closed the door on this client, this bad client, the meteoric multimillion dollar rise to success for him has been incredible ever since that moment because he decided to value himself more and to make room in his life for people that respected him. And that is the core of sales, is respecting yourself. Yeah, yeah, it really is. Who else is going to respect you?

Yeah, that's amazing. So you teach in your training though, you teach people not just how to sell, but you and Leila, you teach them how to build marketing funnels that generate leads that they can then sell as well. Am I right?

Correct. So we are very, very much in the business of a full end to end consulting. So getting clear on who you are, what your goals are, getting clear on who your clients are and what they do, getting clear on what the message is to them, getting clear on how to set that online funnel up to bring you low cost leads and turn them into high end sales, and then getting clear on what the process is that you're going to take them through with that product and how to pre sell that ethically and authentically, generating six and seven figures in sales, selling a product that you care about, built from what you're most passionate about for the people you can most help for the most amount of money, so you can deal with the least amount of people and have the greatest amount of freedom and passion doing what you love.

That's great.

I'm just one part of the business. Leila is the true genius, founding mother of the business, the genius, the woman who dragged it out of nothing, out of the desperation of a $25,000 a year temp job to being a seven figure business that employs the entire family. And she is far, far, far greater than I am. If you like my stuff. Leila is my first and greatest mentor and teacher and she's incredible. So our business, strategic anarchy is her business. I'm just the sales end of the business. She makes marketing that it's Difficult to describe, which is a bad thing for a salesperson. But Leila is the convergence of pop, cult art and marketing and sales. She kind of rolls it all together into this incredible, different, confrontative, authentic, radically honest approach. Leila views herself as being a professional disruptor, somebody who calls light on the dark places, somebody who gets people's noses out of joint, someone who challenges and can be very abrasive. But her mission is a mission of truth and self respect. And she has made me the man I am today. So, you know, you like my stuff, you love hers. Check her out as well.

Yeah, you guys make an amazing team, that's for sure. So let's talk a little bit more about what you're doing in your business business right now to grow it. Because this entire conversation so far has been really about you helping listeners and providing your insight. I like to take the end of the podcast to kind of find out some of the areas that you're trying to build upon, some of the maybe a nut you're trying to crack challenge you're trying to overcome or whatever, and see if either myself or anybody listening has any insights, opportunities, connections, contacts or whatever for you. You've told me offline that one of the things you are doing more in your business is working with bigger and bigger companies. People have sales teams and sales floors and obviously scaling up. Is that still the case? Is that one of your big primary goals right now is to take your game to the next level?

Yeah, look, I'm not looking to deal with any old faceless corporation that's raping the world and killing the dolphins. I really want to. The person I really want to work with is somebody who's probably, I'd say in eight figures, mid seven figures to eight, who's a frustrated founding father who is great at what they do, or mother. 60% of my niche are women. Somebody who loves their business but has realized that they need to spread themselves further. And to do that, I'm sitting in an office right now in two or three million dollar business. They've got a team they're building inside and they want to know how to motivate train metric, you know, everything they do so they can get their message out there and help the world. And they want to know how to make sure that that works. And they can't be doing it themselves. They've got a beautiful daughter to bring up. They've got a bunch of property empires they've got to run, they've got stages to be speaking on, they've got a Whole bunch of things to do. They can't be the ones pounding the phone anymore. It's not because they're scared of sales and they're no good at sales. It's just their business has grown greater than that. It's bigger than that. Yeah. Helping those people create the metrics, create the systems, create the scripts, create the objection handling, create the training, create the culture in the team, create the people who want to serve them in the warriors on the front line of their business going into battle to spread their word and their message. That's the person I'm targeting at the very top end now. Guys like you who have such great stuff to offer, and maybe you do or don't have a sales team, but you'd like to get better performance and you want to change stuff and of course, get an amazing ROI through that process. That's the place. I'm focusing currently also in activities like these. Speaking more internationally, traveling more internationally, getting on those stages and spreading this message. Because not everybody who trains sales trains this. A lot of people selling the amazing turd rolled in glitter. That is sales without selling. And I stand against that. In an industry full of people selling turds rolled in glitter, I want people to see that sales is the real gold, not something to be ashamed of. And I want to spread that message. I want more opportunities like this one. I want to speak on your podcast. I want to come to your training and train your people. I would love to be part of your community and help you. If sales isn't your forte, I'll come in and help your people with sales. I can help you make them money and make you look good. And at the very core, it all comes back to that guy in that call center, that sales manager, that team leader, that kid on the phone who's going through the crap I was going through. And I want to be able to help him.

Absolutely. You see yourself in them and you're like, I want to help him get out of that. Are you running into any roadblocks or challenges that you're currently looking to kind of overcome? Whether you're looking for resources or strategies, etc. Is there anything right now you're like, ah, this is a nut I just can't crack.

Well, it's not so much I don't have a can't attitude, but I do have challenges. Everyone does. I think my biggest thing is we have sold the bootstrapping, street fighting, motherfucking kind of badass, punk rock, tattooed, confrontative, entrepreneurial, zealot, sub six figure Market very, very well. Right. And I've done a couple of really great deals with, you know, 10, 20, 30 million dollar companies and gotten incredible results. But I think for me it's just finding the connections and transitioning from being the guy who trains bootstrappers and startups to being the guy who trains those large companies is probably that I just need to grow my network of those larger businesses. And that's really, I think, where my work is now. I'm working with Frank Kern right now on developing the higher level, that frustrated founder that we're just talking about and contacting more of those and opening up more networks and opportunities to talk to those sorts of guys. And I think that that's going to be about doing things like what we're doing right now, networking with guys who are connected to those guys and leveraging goodwill and relationships with people who know like and trust me already. As much as it is about me getting on the phone and cold calling them or marketing to them per se. Does that make sense?

Yeah, it does completely. And I mean, speaking of that, like your best prospects for that are probably your former students. I mean, your biggest evangelist, the people who have learned from you. That's the one kind of cool thing, is that business people know other business people. And I mean, much like what we're doing here, we're continuing this relationship. But those folks can be, I found, can be the levers or the hinges, the small little hinges that swing really, really big doors. And if you haven't already started to tell this mission to your current and former students of who you're looking to meet and how they can make the introduction and maybe what's in it for them. A lot of times they don't even need anything. That's oftentimes what I tell some of my clients. Man, there's a pot of gold sitting right underneath your feet. And it's your clients, those ones who know like and trust you the most because they can oftentimes walk you right into. Sometimes it's a former employer or it's their husband or wife's business or something like that. And what I found you may already be, already be doing this. So I could be preaching to the choir, but that sometimes it's so obvious we don't even think to do it. I'm talking about like your potentially your former students or current ones. Like, oh yeah, I never even thought to introduce you to my best friend that owns a company that's struggling with sales. I never even thought to do that. Thank you for Reminding me that I can do that.

It comes down to vulnerability and positioning because, like, for so long, to get you past that million dollar mark, the positioning is like, I'm a badass and I can help you. It's not like, you know, taking your need to the marketplace. You know, Brian Tracy says, don't take your needs to the marketplace. Don't ask your marketplace to help you. But it is about showing vulnerability and saying, hey, this is what I want. Do you know people like this? Can we help each other? And I found in the last couple of months since deciding really to follow through on this direction, that I've reached out to multimillion dollar corporations within my clientele. And they've said, oh, my God, we've been waiting for this. We've been waiting for you to decide you want to do this. We have this guy who wants to talk to you next week. How can we make this happen? It's amazing. I suppose a really great lesson for me. And just like being the hard, tough, armored up sales warlord got me where I am, but being the vulnerable, honest, loving guy who wants to spread his message but is also not too proud to ask for help is going to get me where I want to go.

Exactly.

For anyone listening, that's a great lesson. If you're struggling with that, because it's the truth, like, you know, you can only get so far. I want to build an army. I want to change the world. I want to take people with me. And that means asking for help. It means, you know, networking. It means opening up and doing these things. And it's so funny. I got on this call with you and I've been offered five such opportunities in the last week because I posted on my wall, man, I really enjoy doing these interviews because I got this one guy and then four more people offered it to me. When you put it out there that you love doing something and you really, all of a sudden, everyone's, you can be on my podcast. You give really good content. Come and be my. It just blew me away how quickly, like, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, right?

And it also shows, like, there's so many. We've all got so many things going on in our mind that if it's not. If you don't put it at the top of somebody's mind and give them the opportunity to act on it, they may not think about it. I mean, we're Facebook friends, we're normal friends. And, you know, I've had this podcast going now for about nine months, real successful. And I'm always looking for great guests, and it just didn't come to the top of my mind. Oh, God. I gotta ask Gulliver. But when you reached out to me on Facebook the other day, like, hey, man, how's it going? We haven't talked in a while. I was like, holy shit. I should be asking you, like, why, why did I not think about this earlier? Be on my podcast. And it just. It's not top of people's minds, so. Exactly like you said, you just gotta enlist people and let them know, hey, I'm available for this. If you didn't know that. I'll train big companies. I'll do xyz. And as I said, I tell that to my clients and colleagues all the time. And some. You know, the problem is I don't take my own advice enough. I don't do it myself enough.

We're all the plumber with the leaky tap sometimes. We can't be in integrity and authenticity always. If I did everything I tell people to do, I'd be way, way better off than I am. But there's only so much you can do as a single person on your own. And I think it's about finding that balance between walking the walk and talking the talk. For me, I've been talking a lot today, but obviously I also want to get walking and do more, help more people. So there's people on this call who are inspired, who want to change the culture, who want to heal an ailing salesforce or build a stronger team of warriors, who want more hunters to go out and get them business, or who want to help their farmers handle more inbound calls, or both. I'm super happy to help and I'm really grateful for the opportunity to have more to do with you, Brad, because you've always been a champion and a supporter and a friend, and I'm really, really grateful to have been part of this with you today.

I appreciate it, and it's right back at you. So we're going to wrap this up, but I'm going to ask the last question. I ask this of everybody, which is really one of my only standard questions on the show. But is there anything that you see right now, whether it's a trend opportunity or something that you see where the ball is going that other people kind of are missing and you're really kind of excited about, or is there anything that you're working on right now, like 2015, you're going to be doing something different, excited. If there's not, and if you're Just plugging away. That's cool. But I've discovered some of the neatest little strategies or people or whatnot by asking this single question.

I think the biggest thing going on at the moment is we're at the turning point. I think with social media, I think things are changing rapidly. Right. I think that the smart money is heading in this direction, but most people are just flapping around like fish on a jetty out of the frickin water and dying in the open air as Facebook shuts down account after account. Google has already kind of taken this line long years previous of hey, you know, this is how the Internet's going to be shaped. And we say so because we're Google and here's what we demand of you as an advertiser. And the same thing's happening now with Facebook. You're seeing the Google fication of Facebook and it really benefits big companies who can blow millions of dollars on broad spectrum crap. And it really will be challenging for anybody who is using landing pages and direct response. Facebook has made it very clear, Google has made it very clear that people who have ROI based direct response and who can actually legitimately back it up, it doesn't matter a fucking bit to them. Our business model is evil as far as they're concerned and they are looking to stamp up off the Internet as far as possible, right? Correct. So if you look at Twitter, there's a place you can still do direct response and there are other media you can do that in. But what we need to do is innovate. What we need to do is create strategies that don't rely on other media. That is the big thing. And what you're doing right now on this phone call, building content, building your own media, that is the smartest thing you could be doing right now. The best time to plant that tree is 20 years ago.

Yeah, you're so right. You're so right. Yeah. That is a big challenge that I've seen a lot of people facing. It's like, wait a minute, this was working for so long and my entire business was based upon Facebook marketing and that was it. And now they're telling me I can't advertise this. And like you said, it's ROI based marketers, the one who will open up the traffic spigots because they can prove we are making positive ROI on this. They don't want us, they, they want brands who will dump 10 million bucks into it.

And they're. And their sales figures have gone through the roof because they're focusing on people who spend a million dollars a month, not people who spend $100,000 a year. So again, everything old is new again. Dan Kennedy says one is an evil number. Dan Kennedy's right. Dan Kennedy says, don't put all your eggs in one basket. Dan Kennedy's right. And Dan Kennedy says everything old is new again. And he's right. Yeah.

Yep.

You don't want to be at the mercy of one media source. So my advice, diversify your media and build your own media so that you have your own eyeballs, your own following and you're going to win. Yeah. Take people into your own media and your own subscriptions and be the media source so that you're not dependent if everything goes to shit and Facebook shuts off all avenues in order to make more money with less effective advertising for bigger companies. If Google shuts off all the SEO, we've seen this happen before to our friends, we've seen it happen to our clients, we've seen it happen to ourselves recently with Facebook. Our big message at the moment is create the media, be the media, control the eyeballs. Because if you don't, then you're always going to be at the mercy. So diversify. Have many, many channels, have joint ventures, have podcasts that you're doing with other people. Have Facebook, have Twitter, have Google, have several channels that drive all of those channels to your own media. Create your own media, be your own media, inform people, create your own following.

See, that's why I asked the question that I asked. So that was brilliant. Alright, so we've mentioned this in the beginning. If people want to go down the rabbit hole that is strategic anarchy they go to. And I'll put these links in the show notes so you can just quickly and easily click on them. But strategicanarchy.com is your primary site. You've got strategicanarchy.com learn the armor of God and the Unbounce page, the Art of Sales where people can download your book. And you are. I mean, yeah, you're getting a lot of leads, but you are open to working with people if they are dedicated to taking their game and their sales to the next level. So if you are the least bit intrigued by this, go check out Gulliver. Strategic Anarchy and Leela. I know them both. They're amazing people. As you can tell, they come from the heart on this. I'm not even letting you plug yourself. I'm not just plugging you by the way, so sounds better coming from you.

Good.

And the other thing is, if you a own a Company with a sales floor, you would be in tremendous hands by requesting Gulliver to take a look at what you're doing and see if you would make a good client. I mean, what's the, you know, think about the upside? If your sales team is doing a million, $10 million, whatever a year, you add a small percentage to that through some of the things you've heard, it'll be a windfall profit reap for you. And if you know anybody, go ahead.

75% of sales teams don't ask for the order consistently. Right.

And that's the most important part. Ask for the order.

Yeah. If that's not happening, I can double or treble your sales. Now, the next step is the five key objections most people abandon on objection number one. If I can get them to handle all five objections, 2, 3, 4, 500% increase in business orders of magnitude. If I can get them to handle all those objections, I can double, treble, quadruple your sales, literally. If we just start doing what we're not doing. And in all likelihood, you're probably not doing it. If you're a large company, you probably don't have time to be sitting on them like a chicken on an egg watching them. So. Super happy to talk about that.

Exactly. And the other part, like we just mentioned, if you know a company that could potentially use this, if you, if you, if you're married to the owner of a business that has a sales team, if you're, if you're the best, if the, if you were the best man in somebody's wedding who operates a sales team or is a salesperson themselves, share this podcast with them. Share this podcast with the world anyway, but share this with them. Let them know that, hey, Gulliver is available. Maybe somebody you should talk to. I don't plan on having any objections because he's gonna hammer them down, but. And you heard how he's gonna do it, point being, seek out his help. I've been through a portion of his training. It is amazing and you've heard it here, some, you know, some high value ip, that armor God stuff, go use it now. For everybody else out there who has gotten value out of this and wants more, if you have any questions, if you have any advice that you'd like little old me to give you, send me an email to askbradaconrappedbusiness.com I am happy to give you a second opinion on anything you're doing, whether it's your marketing strategy, sales strategy, anything you're doing. If I Can't help you. There is a good chance I know somebody like Gulliver here who can. And I've got a lot of great past guests. I am a tremendous resource. Whether we're working together directly or not. I am here to help other business owners, you know, improve their lives, their business, etc. That's why I do the show. I do it for fun and I do it to have great conversations with people I like about topics I love and that's why I do the show. So if you share it on social media, spread the word, talk about it at parties, like, man, I just heard a great bacon wrapped episode. That's how you pay me back. And I'll obviously leave a review on itunes about how wonderful Gulliver and I were today. But I want to thank every single one of you guys listening. Gulliver, I want to thank you. I'm so glad we reconnected and did this. It's been a lot of fun and hopefully generates some, you know, some more exposure for you, mate.

I really enjoy these opportunities and I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart. And from Leila, who's not here, she's just having lunch with Ali Brown at the moment.

We'll give her my love.

Absolutely. Arizona is beautiful right now, but I want to thank you for helping me and for promoting me and for giving me the opportunity to help these guys listening because I know that there's people right now gonna go make some extra money and actually help grow their businesses using that material. And super happy to be friends with anyone who wants to come and check me out. I live on Facebook, so super happy. If you want to chat, ask me questions, do. Thank you so much, Brad for having me on. I really appreciate you. I'd love to do more with you.

Absolutely. Me too.

Thank you.

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