The Art Of Giving Gifts In Business with John Ruhlin

How do you make business problems disappear?

Wrap em in bacon for business owners, marketing execs, and anyone trying to grow your business. Pump your profits and make more while doing less. Welcome to Bacon Wrapped Business with Brad Costanzo. Sizzling hot business advice guaranteed to make you fat profits. Every week, our chefs will serve you proven recipes for ramping up your revenue. Now here's your host, Brad Costanzo. All right, welcome back to the show. This is Brad Costanzo. And I am really happy to have all of the new listeners who discover the show every single week and who stopped by and like, yeah, this is great. You got me with the word bacon in the title. I didn't know what this was about. And he's sharing all these cool business strategies. And you know, my. My marketing branding prowess worked on you, but big high five to you. Congratulations for finding the show. My name is Brad Costanzo. If we aren't familiar with each other, this is my platform for talking to some amazing people who are doing really cool things that I just am dying to find out what's working for them, for their clients, for their customers, and how they're growing their business, how they're attacking the world of entrepreneurship and completely different ways. And I never quite know where these conversations are going to go, but the one thing that I'm always focused on is making sure that I learn something that I can take away and utilize both in my businesses and those with my clients. And I cannot tell you how much money just the strategies that I learned from my guests on the show has made me. So I encourage you to take some notes, and if you really like this, the best thing in the world you can do is share it on social media, leave me a review on itunes. It helps other people discover the show. And if you at any point have any questions and you want to give me feedback, give me recommendations, or just kind of want to get my attention, you can email me directly@askbradaconrapped business.com so today I have got a guest who is going to be right on point with a lot of the things that you hear me talk about on this show. Before I get to the introduction, I want to explain really what that is. The concepts of access and influence, which I talk a lot about, are very important to me. One day I was taking a walk and I realized that really it's access and influence. Those two threads have been the common threads of all the success that I've ever had in my life. And I think of them as the little hinges that swing the big doors of opportunity. What can I get access to? What do I have? What can I get access to? What can I borrow access to? But how can I get it? Whether it's people, customers, ideas, contacts, relationships, how can I get them? Because once I get them, I can open a myriad of doors, But I can't do that without influence. So I need access to influence, and I need to build influence. And influence can be rapport. It can be persuasion. It can just simply be having somebody know like and trust you. But these two hinges that swing the big door when mastered, really the. You know, the world is your oyster, and you can go very, very far if you just understand these simple concepts. Unfortunately, so many people don't. And they. They try to get access without having influence, or they try to. They try to go too quickly, and they try to pitch people who don't want to hear what they have to say. And the world is filled with broken entrepreneurs, salespeople, and professionals who have just not really mastered this. So that's kind of one of my. One of my goals is to help people really master access and influence, and that's why today I invited John Rulin on the show to talk about this, because he has a very unique and proven way that absolutely anybody can utilize. So John is the founder of the Rulin Group, and I'll let him explain exactly what they do. But I discovered John through a former guest and friend of mine named Tucker. Max and Tucker. You know, some of you may know who he is. He's written books. He helps people write books. Right? Now, that's a very understated introduction for Tucker, however, and you can hear John laughing in the background. Maybe the easiest introduction he's ever had. He's like, man, you got to talk to John. You got to talk to John. John's amazing. John wrote this book called Giftology, and it's really all about how to. How to understand, how to use gifts, you know, really thoughtful gifts to get access and influence with people. And I'll let him explain really all about that, and I'm going to ask him a lot of questions about some of the coolest ways that he's either used these strategies or seen them use with his clients in order to get access to influence, build access and influence, and just have a lot of fun. John, welcome to bacon wrap business.

Brad, man, thanks for having me. That's. It was pretty funny to hear you talk about Tucker.

I know, right? I was like, he's his author and he does book stuff.

I love it, man.

For those who know Right. Just for those who know. Anyway, yeah, man, it's great to meet you and I think we've talked about this offline in the past. You live like, right near or in my hometown. Like, where are you located?

I'm in Edwardsville. Yeah. Yeah. Illinois. Yeah. Just on the. Across the river in St. Louis.

So I grew up there. It was so random that you lived. So you live there or is it your office?

Both. I mean, my company, part of town. I'm on the. I'm in between Bethalto, Edwardsville and Wood River. I'm out in the country.

Yeah, that's right. You told me that. My parents live in Ginger Creek. So.

Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. So, I mean, it's a town of 25,000 people, but like, Josh Turner just moved back here.

Did he really?

Yeah, yeah, the link guy. Link selling guy. Great guy.

Former guest on the show, too.

Oh, really?

Absolutely.

Oh, that's cool.

They've all been on the show.

Yeah, Josh is a good dude. Well, you know what?

I'm actually looking forward to now. Like, I don't. I love going back to see my family and a couple of my buddies from high school, but now I got even more reasons to enjoy when I come back home and. And make some phone calls. But yeah, enough of this personal stuff that nobody cares about but us. Tell me a little bit. You know, you heard me talking about this, like, that big theme, access and influence, and I think it dovetails nicely into what you do. But I want you to tell a little bit about, you know, who you are, where, how you got started, what giftology is all about. And then I want to talk about some really cool examples of people using these strategies to just have some amazing results, build relationships and close deals.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, a lot of times people hear giftology, they hate gifting, especially dudes. Like, I don't have time for that. Like, I don't have, like, is this like a, you know, like, hold hands and sing Kumbaya, like, kind of message? And especially when I speak to people that are like CFOs, like, oftentimes, like the oxygen gets sucked out of the room because, like, people are like, really, like, game changing. Like, this is going to add money to my bottom line. I'm like, well, here's what we've done for 17 years. Like, it's open up doors with the Cubs and 25 pro sports team. We now have as clients. Like, we're now international. And I grew up on a farm milking goats in the middle of Ohio. So If I can leverage these tools to gain access and influence, I'm pretty sure that just about anybody could. But most people think they don't matter. They think really, gifting, generosity, gratitude, like, those don't seem like business strategies. And it's because most people suck at it. Like, they're not very good at using gratitude as a competitive advantage because they don't believe it matters. And when they do it, they do it half heartedly, unthoughtfully. And they're like, see, I told you gift didn't work. And I'm like, well, you obviously didn't read the book and leverage any of our strategies because you sent a gift card at Christmas to your most important relationships and you wondered why you didn't get a thank you note. They forgot about it in about 30 seconds. So at a core level, what we do at ruling group is we teach leaders how not to suck at showing gratitude. And usually when they walk through or hear us speak, they're like, wow, you're right, we are horrible at this. And we, you know, we need more referrals, we need more doors open. We need to grow our business. Our employees are leaving to other competitors. Like, there's a pain point there for most companies somewhere where they'd like to grow faster. And so we're like, you know, what ruling group does is we help people understand how to use gifts to drive results.

I love that. And there's also, there's, and there's the gratitude aspect. So if somebody's done something really nice, I want to send them a gift and just show gratitude. But then there's the get my foot in the door.

Yeah, there's two, there's.

Right.

Yeah, there's two different levels. So let's talk about oftentimes. Yeah. So people will. The low hanging fruit. This isn't the sexy part, but the low hanging fruit is how can I show gratitude to my most important relationships? Clients, employees, suppliers. Like, I treat my suppliers better than most people treat their best clients. Because I don't have a business without my suppliers. Absolutely. Most people treat their suppliers like crap. I'm like, you're an idiot. Like, you could get better pricing. You could get, you know, them to run through walls for you. If you just be a nice person and show them love, they're like, well, they should be buying me dinner. I'm like, screw that. Like, I buy my suppliers dinner.

What you just said, by the way, that's what everybody else thinks. And that the only way you can stand above and beyond, it doesn't matter if you're like, if that's a salesperson or thing, if everybody's doing the exact same thing, do just something a little bit different and you'll stand out.

Yeah. And for whatever reason, it seems like people follow the same playbook. They take people out to dinner, they do the ball games, dinners, all that kind of stuff, which is fine. But what if you took your $20 box of chocolates and instead, like, I send people $200 gifts to thank them for their time. So I take, you know, probably a thousand meetings a year and the time it takes to even have a phone call, an interview, a meeting, like, that's time I will never get back and they'll never get back. It's an asset that we can never go buy more of. And so I will acknowledge people for their time, say, hey, thanks so much for carving out the time. I'll send them the knife because that's, you know, that's one of our calling cards is like the high end Cutco knives because our history, but also because it's something that the executive will take home to his family. They'll use it. You know, they'll look at it.

They'll see.

They'll look at it. Yeah. I mean, by the way, for the next 50 years, does.

Does Ryan Moran have one of yours?

Oh, yeah.

Did you see the Facebook post he made the other day?

Oh, it wasn't the Moran. It was Levesque.

Oh, is it Leveque? Levesque?

Yeah. Yeah.

Killed a snake with it.

Yeah. That was so funny style. Yeah. He took like duct tape and a pole and a Santoku chef knife and chopped up a coral snake because he. I think he just moved. And he's got kids.

Yeah.

He's like, I earned my dad card today. I was like, so funny. Like, and.

And I knew that was you, dude. I knew it was your. Your knife. That's awesome.

Yeah, it was. Yeah. Well, Jason Gaynord is a client of ours from Mastermind talks and he does gifting for all of his members and prospects and interesting people he meets. So we execute the gifting for Jason. And I know Ryan, but not well. But I didn't actually send. My company sent the knife, but it didn't come from me. It actually, I can't steal Jason's thunder. It actually came. Jason bought it. That's still amazing. But people still, like, put John Rulin in the comments. So I commented on it. And what's interesting is that a little secret here. I don't know if Ryan listens to your show or not. But the, the plan is I'm going to follow up with another gift like a Rambo style cutcoat like Ryan the Snake Slayer Levesque. So he'll be getting that, he'll be getting that next week and ideally has.

The knife and ideally he'll post that on Facebook and Instagram and give you a shout out. It's amazing how that little stuff works, right? Like people want to do that whenever they get cool stuff. That's just one of those ancillary benefits that, you know, you get people showing stuff off and thanking you publicly.

Yeah, it's crazy. I sent Cameron Harold. I'd send him every knife on the planet. Every. I already sent him like crazy amounts of stuff. So I ran out of ideas and he got me my first. When we moved our speaking fee to 15 grand is like a year ago. He was like, he referred me in and normally I don't recommend sending referral gifts because it makes it more of a transactional relationship. Hey, you send me a million dollar client, I send you a hundred dollar Starbucks gift card. It doesn't feel very, like relational. It feels very transactional. But in this case I was like, I'm just gonna break my own rule and I'm gonna melt Cameron's face off. So I took a suit, a metal suitcase, and sent him $1500 in cash. Filled the whole suitcase and then I locked part of it so he had to pry it open. So it felt like a drug deal. When he got this unmarked metal suitcase, so he posted it, it went to like 10,000 people. I can't tell you the number of people that come up to me at conferences and after I speak at big events and they're like, you're. You sent the 1500, you know, the big suitcase full of cast of Cameron. And I'm like, I don't know who you are, but yes, that's. That is us.

How did you, how did you, who delivered that? You. Because you, you don't just send that through the mail, do you?

Oh, nice.

Hopefully. Sure. That one.

Yeah, I did. You sent through the post office and Yeah, I mean, that stuff goes a.

Long way, by the way. That stuff goes a long way. So years and years ago, I remember when I got this guy that I was. Long story, like how I was working with him, but he sent me like $2,000 and he sent them all to me in. Was it ones? I think it was ones. He sent me a big fat envelope full of ones. He's like, here, have Fun. And I was just like, that was just so cool. I gotta take him to the bank now and stuff. But it was fun to get because very few people ever see a big old stack of cash. But that's, But I love how you put it in the, you took it to the next level and this is kind of what you're known for. You didn't just send them cash, you didn't put it in a brown paper bag. You sent it in a, in a suitcase or a briefcase. So you didn't just do that. You made them actually have to pry it open. And it's, you're giving them the experience beyond just, oh, this is a cool gift, right?

Yeah, it has to. You know, the best gifts are experiential and tangible. So a lot of people are good at taking people to, you know, skydive or do something. But what's the artifact? What's the item that every time they see it, use it, touch it, feel it, they. There, there's a memory triggered, you know, to, to you know what that experience was. And so a lot of times people do these cool conferences and events. I'm like, what's the trigger? And they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, well, they're going to go to a hundred conferences over the next, you know, 10 years, 20 years. Why are they going to remember your event, your trip, your conference, your dinner? And it, you know, it has to have an amazing experience plus a tangible trigger to, to be the perfect gift and to get the mileage out of the money you invest in the experience like you want them. Like, what I love about the knife is subconsciously they use the knives. So whether it's one knife or you know, a $5,000 knife set sitting on the counter, every time they use it, there's no logo on it for ruling group, which is one of our rules. Like, I'll send out 350 grand in gifts personally this year to my relationships. Not a single thing that I send out has ruling group or giftology or anything about me. But subconsciously, when they use a high end item that was gifted with no strings attached, there's a subconscious like positive thread that is in their brain of I like John, I like ruling group, I giftology, I like. I've had people reach out to me like, John, I use the knives and I'm get so pissed because I think about you whether I want to or not. Like you're, you're, you know, these are almost like evil. Like you're almost like you're like subconsciously, like ruling me. Like, this is crazy. And I'm like, it works like, you do cool things for people and it's tangible. Like, there is that subconscious trigger. And it does spark conversations with their inner circle, which are all referral opportunities. Like, speakers hang out with other speakers. You know, insurance people hang out with other business owners. Like, so that one of the ways we've grown our business and our influence is by all of these subconscious type thoughts that inspire conversations around me at all these intimate events. And I don't even have to be there. I can be with my family and these things are happening kind of automatically.

I love that. I love that. So let's have some fun. Let's talk about some of your favorite stories. Whether the stuff that it's worked for you that you've personally given, received, or some of your clients and the way people have really used these. Because, I mean, I think with this stuff, examples just do so much power. So what are some of your favorites?

Yeah, well, I think that, you know, like I said, the low hanging fruit is taking care of your inner circle, the people you already have a warm market with. But everybody gets excited and sexy about going after the whale client they don't have versus spending 1/10 the amount of money in taking care of all of your clients, by the way.

We can talk about that. We can talk about that too. So, like, just mean examples, like maybe even if it's showing gratitude. Well, that's nice. Like, okay, that was a. Maybe either a really thoughtful or creative way to do something.

Yeah.

Are you the one, you're the one who did the with speaking of Cameron, also a former guest on the show. Everybody you mentioned will probably have been a guest on my show, by the way. See, you've been left out. That being said, are you the one who bought the. Did the suits?

Yeah.

Okay, so tell that story because I love that story. Yeah.

So I heard Cameron speak at an event. I determined I couldn't afford his $10,000 a month coaching call, you know, consulting. But I was like, he could be a mentor, an advisor, he could be a client. But I wanted him as a part of my inner circle. And I'm sure a lot of your guests have had people that they've met. They're like, here's the 12 pillars. Or you know, Vern Harness talks about, like the 25. Like, who are the 25 most important people that you need in your corner? Cameron, I felt like he's one of those guys. And so I'm like, hey, I found out he was coming to Cleveland. I was living in Ohio at the time. And I'm like, the same night he's flying in to speak to our chapter. Like, I have opening night cabs tickets, and, you know, we'll go out for a steak dinner. Like, we'll be high five. And I'm like, thinking, he'll love this. So I go up to camera, hey, you're here. You're coming to Cleveland. You know, do you want to do dinner and a ball game? I have amazing cab seats. And his response was like, sure, I guess. I don't have anything else going on. I'll go. And I was like, so deflated. I was like, duh. Like. Like a lot of our clients, they do dinner, ball game, golf, all that kind of stuff all the time. It's not wow. So I'm like, gosh, I got to figure something else out. I said, what else are you going to do in your town? He said, the dollar is really weak. I'm from Canada. I'm going to go shopping. And I'm like, maybe this is my angle is what I'm thinking in my head. I'm like, where are you going to shop at? And he said, brooks Brothers. And on the spot, I'm like, I'm a Jose bank guy. I want to send you a shirt. What's your shirt size? And of course, Cameron's like, looking at me kind of bewildered, like, does this dude have a man crush on me? Like, this is a weird question to ask somebody within two minutes of meeting them. But he was really polite. He told me a shirt size, and I said, great, I'll send you a shirt. Like, can't wait to see you in three months. We'll go to the dinner and a ball game. So long story short is I pitched it to my business partner. He thought it was the worst idea on the planet. The morning of, Cameron starts texting me, trying to get out of the dinner and a ball game, like, hey, my flight's delayed. I think I'm going to miss my connecting flight. And I'm like, don't matter when you get in, we'll just hang out and we'll grab a drink. And he said, cool. So I called my partner back. I'm like, we have to do this, and talked him into it. And we went up to Brooks Brothers, like, three hours before he arrives, and I put on the Amex and a slip of paper that had all the sizes. And I said, I want one of everything in your new fall collection, all your shirts Jackets, pants, sweaters, belts, everything. And the guys thought I was joking. And I'm like, I wish I was, but no, I want everything. And they rang it up, $7,000. And I'm sweating because I'm like praying that the Amex will even go through.

That's a nice part about amex, right? They're like, yeah, go ahead, charge whatever you want. Pay it back next month.

Pay back. Yeah, exactly. So, so I'm like, I load stuff into my Suburban, go over the Ritz. Hey, we got one of the top business coaches in the world coming in town. Do you want to do something amazing? Of course, it's the Ritz. They say yes. So we go, we merchandise the hotel room to look like a Brooks Brothers store. Sweaters there, jackets hanging there. It was like amazing. And then I'm like downstairs drinking like, you know, triples on the rocks because I'm like so nervous. Like my business partners in my ear, like, you think you're a stalker? Like, this is going to blow up in our face. This is the worst idea ever. And Cameron gets in. You tell like, he doesn't want to go to dinner in a ball game. He just wants to go to bed. And I'm like, hey, Cameron, go take a shower. Come down whenever you're ready. And he comes down and he's like floating into the lobby off the elevator, like, is glowing. And he's like, he's like, I've never had anybody treat me this way. Whatever you want to talk about, for as long as you want to talk about it, I'm all yours. Amazing, right? Yeah. I mean, over the last 10 years he's referred me and opened up doors. Like, the reason I'm able to charge 20 grand for a speaking engagement is because I have guys like him backing me and recommending me. And in my corner not only as a client, but also like every one of his clients is now exposed to what we do and he's pushing them towards working with us because he's like, this is a no brainer. So he's done things that $10 million in advertising couldn't have done for. Now.

What about, what about some other ways that you've really seen, like just creative ways to get your foot in the door that, you know, people have done to get access to things that they may not have been able to do just on their own?

Yeah, well, I mean a more simple, like, you know, it's not a seven. What's interesting is that experience didn't cost me seven grand because a lot of Times people are like, well, John, that's just not. I can't spend $7,000 on every person. I'm like, you're missing the point. You could personalize every gift you give. And that experience didn't cost me seven grand. Not costing me anything. And that's a story for another day. But it. Hold on.

Back up, Kemo sabe. This is another welcome to another day.

So Cameron came back to me and said, john, the personalization, the experience, what you did for me, the way you made me feel is the gift. I can't let you buy the clothes as well. So one of two things are going to happen. I couldn't get all those clothes home. If I wanted, I'd buy like 10 suitcases. So I picked out the clothes I wanted. You're either going to tell me how much they were and I'll write a check for that or I'm going to guess and I'm a round up by 50% and I'm going to send you a check for that.

Cameron, that's awesome.

I know. I mean, that's the kind of guy he is.

But it also goes to show. It goes to show it's the thought, it's the experience. It counts. And it counted so much that it was at no point about the value of the gifts to him. Now, not everybody's going to do that, but it just shows you that he could have easily just said, hey, thanks.

Yeah, it's the thoughtful thought that count most people use. Oh, it's the thought that counts as a way that counts most people use. The thought that counts is a excuse to give a lame gift. It's like the word token. Hey, this is a token of our appreciation, which basically means it's a sucky small gift. And I didn't get very creative with it because you'd never describe a relationship as a token relationship. No, no, no. But why would you describe the item that's supposed to represent the value of the relationship as a token? Yeah, it's only a token because you sucked. You either didn't want to put the time, the energy or the money into making it something. And it's not just about the money. Some of the nicest things that people have done for me had nothing to do with the amount of money that they spent on it, but that man did. They put a lot of time and energy and effort into, you know, doing something or creating something for me. So, yeah, it's not the money. People get caught up like, oh, John, I can only work with you if I have a million dollars. I'm like, you idiot. Like, no, I have clients that spend 10 grand with me, but they spend it really shrewdly and they massive impact. But they might only target, you know, 20 relationships with that 10 grand. And they're willing to invest $500 a person into those people. And because of it, you know, most people spend $5, we spend 500. And now, like, you get treated like a king because you gifted like a king. Like, that's a old school. It's actually an old Testament proverb. Like a gift ushers you into the presence of kings. Like, the things I teach are not, like, new this. We've forgotten about them and we're like, you know, it's like people talking about fasting and meditation. Guess where that comes from? Like Buddha and Bible, right?

Yeah, the oldest. The oldest.

The oldest stuff on the planet. Like.

But oftentimes it's those fundamentals that are absolutely ignored, like appreciation and gratitude. And that thoughtful thought, and I love that that's. That may be the title of this episode. Right? The thoughtful thought that counts. And, you know, it kind of reminds me, you know Sean Stephenson, right?

Yeah.

Cool. So Sean's good friend of mine and you familiar with his advocate circle that he does?

I'm not. I've actually. I know who Sean is just because we have so many mutual friends. I've never met Sean. I'll make an introduction from afar.

I'll make an introduction for my listeners who don't know. He is also former guest, good friend of mine, one of the best public speakers I've ever seen in my life and, you know, my mentor in that area. Well, one of the things he talks about is his advocate circle marketing. And this is another reason you absolutely need to meet him. So he picks a group of about, I think he said about 21 people at any time. And it'll change. People come in and out, and these are people not his closest friends that he already knows will do anything and walk through fire for him. But this is like one. One circle out. One concentric circle out, right? The ones that he's got a relationship with. But he wants to deepen it. So every quarter, what he'll do is he'll send people a handwritten letter and it'll be a little bit about, hey, here's like real personal or just a personal greeting. Hey, John, what's going on? I take it back. It's not handwritten, it's typed. But he'll hand sign it and make notes on it. Here's A little something personal that's going on. Here's something professional that's going on. And it'll ask a question about what you're doing, how he can support you, etc. The first time you ever get one. He also includes a little survey, like, what's your birthday? What's your favorite charity? What's your favorite restaurant? What's all this other stuff? Right? And then he sends. Now I'm gonna call. I'm gonna call it a token, but it's not, because it's a very thoughtful thought, right? So one day he sent. He sent a dvd. I can't remember which one it was, but a DVD of a movie that he saw is a really inspirational movie that he liked. And he's like, yeah, I thought you'd get a lot out of this. And then he sent. You ever seen those staples, buttons that say, that was easy?

Yep. Course.

So he had one on it. It said bullshit. And he sent it to me. It's like when you hit it. Actually, the package would say, that's bullshit. But he had a little post it note on there. And he says, my wife's name is Kenya. He goes, give this to Kenya. She's gonna need this a lot. Like, Right. But that's kind of bro humor, you know, because we are really good friends. But it was also. It was. It was like one of those things that guys do, you know, guys are always ribbing each other. So it didn't have to be like this beautiful Cutco knife. It was funny, it was personal, and it made me laugh like hell. And I still got the thing here somewhere. But it's. But he does this every quarter in order to deepen those relationships. And it's a really thoughtful way. And he goes, man, I can't tell you how much business that has gotten me and how much deeper friendships. So I'll definitely connect you to for that reason. Because he can probably. I mean, you guys will be great friends, but it'll probably utilize you and some of your creativity in a lot of ways. But, yeah, I thought. I thought you would appreciate that.

What?

What? So I think a lot of people think this kind of. I'm going to ask in a second, you know, why do people really need you? What makes you guys stand out from just going to another store and say, okay, cool, go buy them gifts? Because. But I'll preface it, because I kind of know you can really. You can really just go send somebody, here's a bottle of wine, here's a box of brownies, here's something kind of cool. But when I read your book and from hearing you talk and seeing you speak, etc. There really kind of is an art to not only, you know, picking the right thing, but tying it in in a way so that there's like relevance to the, to the gift. Right?

Yeah. I mean there's.

Let's talk about the relevance of the gift and how it all ties together and how you can make an impact with that.

Yeah, Well, I think a lot of why people come to us is we help them. Like, the who of who you're giving the gift to is way more important than what you're sending. People are like, well, but you're a gifting company. I'm like, well, the what is part of it, but it's the details of the personalization. It's the details of like, I'm a gifting company and I don't send one gift between Thanksgiving and Christmas. That 350 grand gets spent the other 10 months out of the year. Because timing matters, the personalization matters, the packaging matters, the handwritten note matters. So, you know, 50% of the gift is all the details around it that make it relevant and important and special and unique and tie in their spouse and maybe their kids and their assistant. And so there's a lot of things from a strategic standpoint that have nothing to do with the tangible item, even though the tangible item is the delivery vehicle. People hire us because they're like, Amazon can send stuff, but I don't want it to come from Amazon. I want it to have a handwritten note. I want it to be thoughtful. I want it to be personalized. I want it to be all of those things you talk about in your book. And I tried to go do it on my own and my team is not ups. They suck it trying to package up on a consistent basis, whether it's 20 gifts or 200 gifts or 2,000 gifts or 20,000 gifts. Like, it's hard to scale that kind of level of personalization and uniqueness. And so the reason people hire us to do all their gifting for them, whether they're small company or whether they're the Cubs, is because they recognize that they should go do what they're really good at and they should outsource things that they're not. But there's nothing secret sauce about what we do that you couldn't do it. It just takes a lot of time, energy, effort, money, resources, and back end logistics.

Creating thoughtful thoughts is like, there's a lot of work behind that.

Especially busy.

So. Yeah, so tell me about that. Okay, so a company, whether it's a small business, an entrepreneur, I mean, is there anybody who's really too small for you? Do you only work with big companies or do you work with, you know, small businesses as well?

Smallest, we like our minimum engagement is if you don't have a top 20 relationships, whether it's clients, employees, prospects, whatever else. If you don't have top 20 that you're in the minimum of 250 per gift. All in with our consulting, shipping, everything, so twice a year. So 10 grand is our, is our opening volley to engage people. So we have financial advisors, insurance agents and other people. But we also do have, you know, Fortune 100 companies as clients that hire us to do things so we can scale. But I love the mid sized company that's you know, doing, you know, 5, 10, $20 million, that is. Or even some of our EO clients are doing 2 and $3 million, but they're profitable. They're a software company, they're whatever. And they're like, man, John, we have these 50 people, if they weren't with us, like it'd be really bad for us. Like their referral partners or whatever. Like we actually can't spend enough money on them. And so we're ran out of ideas or we're really challenged. And so I love those guys because I grew up, you know, my, I've been an EO for 10, 10 years, entrepreneurs organization. And so like I'm, that's kind of my tribe. They're not my biggest clients, but they're people that really appreciate what we do and I enjoy working with them. And I love taking a, you know, the David and Goliath and taking somebody that's a David going up against these big 800 pound gorillas and helping them slaughter those guys, that's fun. Like that's a game to be able to be strategic and say I have way less money to spend but I'm gonna spend it way better than you. Like I love that challenge.

That's fantastic. Okay, so when you are working with somebody, somebody engages you, they get more than just, I mean, what's that like? I mean you, you talk to them, you find out you. Yeah. I mean, and then because you guys are providing a lot more, it sounds like, than just the, you know, just the gift, right? Not just buying the gift and delivery, you're helping take a lot of the strategic thoughts. Like you're like assume like I'm hiring you and you're probably gonna, I Mean, I'm putting words in your mouth, but I'm guessing you're gonna ask me a lot about who I'm trying to reach and why I'm trying to reach them, and maybe individually. And then are you coming back with, like, recommended gifts and strategies and ways to do this?

Yeah. So we walk people through what we call a relationship action plan, which is just a fancy word for an excel sheet that has certain key pieces of information from their name, their spouse's name, their assistant's names, their home address or their business address, their website, their. How many kids do they have, what are they into? Do they have pets? Like, as much info as you can possibly get on those people. And if those relationships are clients or suppliers or employees, that stuff that if you don't know, you should know. And you should be teaching your team to pick up on those things and documenting them in your CRM because they're useful not just from a gifting perspective. They're useful just from building relationships and knowledge and understanding who people are. So we walk them through that sheet and get them to start understanding who do I have to be grateful for? Who do I need to show gratitude to? Which, you know, five minute journal. Guys, like, you know, have mastered that idea of like, putting down, like three people you're grateful for, which over the course of a year, that's a thousand people if they're all different. A lot of people that are in business have a lot of people they should be saying thank you to from the current past and moving forward, and they just have never written them down and identified them. We help people identify those people, all those people, and then put a value to them, like, what's the value of that relationship currently and what could it be over the lifetime if it grew? And oftentimes people are like, oh, my gosh, like, some of these relationships are worth, you know, 50 grand in profit to me over the next 10 years or 500 grand or whatever. Yeah, you start. And then I'm like, well, you should be reinvesting 5%, you know, so you give me a dollar and I'm going to give you, you know, $20 back. Like reinvest 5%. Keep the client, grow the client, hopefully, and turn them into a sales advocate for you. Those are the three goals of gifting with your current relationships. And if it's a prospect, somebody you want to have in your corner, what's the value of that relationship if they, if they got into your corner? And what are you willing to invest? Pre invest, kind of like Gary Vaynerchuk style. Like, what are you willing, you know, you want to broker somebody's attention? Well, we're helping pre broker that and pre buy their attention by saying, you know, we're gonna send you, like, get him or I sent 18 gifts in a row over 18 months to get his attention. And he invited me down to his house to hang out at his, you know, condo there in Charlotte. And he's become a client, a friend and advocate. But I was, I had to be willing to commit to, you know, 18 gifts over 18 months. Most people give up after like gift two or three. And I'm like, so a lot of our prep work is having the right heart set and mindset to say, this is how I'm going to operate for the next three years minimum or maybe even lifetime. Like, I'm a giver. I want to be generous. Like, whether I'm doing it with you ruling group or somebody else. Like, this is who I am. I want to show value. I want to give gratitude. I don't want to do it. I say I'm world class and everything. I want to be world class at this too. And so a lot of it is getting your head right because, you know, like, the Cubs deal for us, it took seven years of gifting to land the Cubs, the largest home builder in the country. Took me seven years of gifting to land them as a client. They're the largest home builder in the world.

So when you're doing that. Let me interrupt there. So when you're doing that, you're trying to get a hold of somebody, you're trying to land somebody, because that's actually, you know, one of the. I think it's easier to probably show gratitude than it is to use a gift to get in the door. And maybe there's some mistakes going on, but you're sending out gifts quite often. Are you doing it? What's the strategy behind that? So you're trying to get a big marquee type client. You send them something kind of cool. Like how much of a note is it? Do you worry about, man, I'm just constantly sending this. What's the strategy behind that?

Well, I think that. Yeah, yeah, it depends, I guess, is the simple answer. And that's one of the reasons that we, like, we try to ask enough questions.

Well, you can use an example like, you can use an example like whether it's the Cubs or anything else.

Yeah. So oftentimes there's a difference between like, one of our clients reached out to us and said, john this relationship is super valuable to us. We'll spend any amount of money to go after them. We've tried for two years to get a meeting, and it's crickets. And so, you know, in that case, like, we did our research and were able to, you know, figure out something about the CEO, cfo, you know, the cio. And we determined to go after the CIO because we had an indirect connection there. And we started gifting that person. It was knives and other. Other things like that that were personalized. But we landed the meeting and that, you know, that in that, for that case, they paid us 25 grand to do that because it was cold. They had tried for a long time. And it wasn't like we were going after 20 people where you have to bat like maybe like, you know, 30%. It was like either hit the ball and, you know, hit a grand slam or you, like, strike out. Like, there's no in between. So most of the time we're using gifts oftentimes to open the door. But then once the doors open, like, how do you stay relevant and stay. Keep the deal moving forward? And when people go dark and, you know, a lot of times people have long buying cycles or maybe you miss out on the rfp, how do you make sure that you're in a position to, to get the next one three years from now? And people don't think long term enough. So a lot of times we'll put together a plan for them and say, hey, this is a prospect, but you already have the door open. What if we twice a year sent something out to them just to remind them that a, you know, you appreciate the opportunity for the RFP to even be involved. And two, like, you want to stay top of mind in case other projects come up, you're one of the first people that they call and people are like, man, that's a lot of money. And I'm like, well, that deal, you know, how much time did you put into it to put the RFP together? Like, oh, like 300 hours. I'm like, what do you value your time at? Like, if this is really an important client for you to have, then let's lay out what they're really worth to you if you land them. And let's take a small percentage of what that would be and invest it on the front end over the next three years, over the next five years, because timing's everything and people shift positions and you just never know. And so oftentimes it's not just to open the door. It's how do you keep the door open and cracked for that opportunity? And that's what we did with the Cubs. It wasn't like I couldn't get the meeting for seven years. I got the meeting, they heard me speak at a conference, but I just continued to drip on them with gifts just to make sure that I stayed relevant, that the door opened. And so finally they reached back out and said, john, we're really struggling right now. We're redoing Wrigley Field. It's an iconic structure and we're ripping out this locker room wood that's falling apart, and we want to do something with it, but we're not sure what to do and we don't want to make a plaque. Like, that's cheesy. Do you have any ideas? We figured this might be something up your alley that's a little more unique and different, not like the standard polo shirt. And I'm like, absolutely. So that's when we went into pitch mode and we were like, how about we remake the wood into a speaker? And that was before I talked to any of the speaker companies, because when I went to tell them the idea of making a speaker out of falling apart wood, they're like, you're insane. This is impossible. So I end up having to subcontractor with a company that's not a speaker company to make these beautiful speakers, and we end up buying that company. They're that creative that they could. They're just like mad scientists. But once you pitch an idea to the Cubs, after seven years, you're going to figure out a way to make that fricking speaker. Even if the speaker company said it's a stupid idea and it worked. But seven years of dripping on somebody three to four times a year is an oftentimes situation. Somebody else that reached out to us was, you know, they had their top 50 relationships, $100 million in net worth and above, and they were huge, huge people. So it's really difficult. And so for us, it was like a three part gifting program to start out with to engage those people. And a number of them reached out. They actually, you know, they had to spend quite a bit of money per prospect. It's probably 2,500 bucks per person. So not insignificant. But each of the relationships, when they did the math, they're like, even if we landed one, it would pay for like, you know, gifts for 100 years. Like, this is just a no brainer. Like this is just, yeah, of course we're going to do this. But most People don't really have real metrics tied to what each relationship's worth, and so they don't really know what they should be investing and they feel uncomfortable doing the gifting in general. So. So it's just kind of a recipe for doing nothing or doing the same cold calling and the same conferences and the same tchotchkes because nobody's challenged them otherwise that say that, hey, idiot, you're investing a million dollars in a trade show. What if you took 20% of that and went after your top 100 dream clients with 200 grand? Do you think you could probably land a few of those meetings one to one with a rifle versus doing this, you know, silly shotgun approach? And nobody's ever called people out for that. That's really what we feel like our. Whether they do it with us or not. Like, we try to shed the light that there's other ways to engage people than the typical ways.

Now, I couldn't agree more. And it's one of those things that I've, you know, I've towed in the water with this stuff. And I'm. I'm a big relationship guy. I mean, it is the number one thing that's driven my success. And when I have done this and I've done that thoughtful thought, it pays crazy dividends and it. But it's so easy to kind of get out of. Out of thinking about it from this angle. And I love the fact that you've really also carved out a tremendous niche for yourself and created this market leading dominance just for yourself, because there's so many other companies out there who provide products and tchotchkes and gifts and things that they can go to. But I've not seen anybody quite, you know, create that, you know, the strategy angle and to create the. Listen, we're not just here to provide you stuff to send to people. Like, this is. This is much more important. Like, you're not going to spend these. You're not going to spend $250 or more for a gift for somebody who doesn't really matter. And it sounds like you and the ruling group, it's. And the entire company recognizes that and tries to go the extra mile to make sure that, you know, they're not.

Just sending out stuff. Stuff, yeah, just to check a box. I mean, as an entrepreneur, like, I want to invest a dollar and I want to get, you know, $2 back or $10 back. And so we try to spend other people's money the same way that we spend our own, which is. I want Results, I don't care. Check a box. I don't care about the warm fuzzy. Like, I want things that are, you know, battle tested, that actually work. And yes, I want people to feel good. And people when they, you know, they buy emotionally and then they justify logically. Like I want. But I want to tie into, you know, the same way you strategize about your finances or your marketing or your operations or your product development. Like, gratitude should be at that same level of strategy. And for most people, it's an afterthought or it's not a habit, like you said. Like it's, people do it once and maybe they get a result, maybe they don't. And they, you know, like they feel guilty at the end of the year and do Christmas gifts, which is the worst time on the planet to give gifts. So it's, it's not cohesive and it's not part of an overall strategy. And you know, consequently, because nobody else is doing it, that's even more why it works. Like, if everybody was a great gift giver, like, it'd just be part of the normal noise of advertising.

Exactly.

But because most people suck at it, it's a lever that's underutilized. Yep.

Now for those, those people listening who really understand this value it, want to get going, but they're not quite at the level where they'd make an ideal client for the ruling group. What's. You've obviously got a book. Is that one of the best resources that they can start with in order to get strategies to start to do this till they get to the point where they're able to afford to step up the game?

Yeah. I mean, Giftology was written with the idea of it being a playbook. There's no like Giftology 2 coming out like six months from now. Like, it's all, it's everything we've done for 17 years, I'd say. Even books. Yeah. I mean, it's short, read under two hours. It's like no fluff. I mean, I try to make it as entertaining as possible, but it's also as tactical. Like, here's real things to go do. But even before that, that we did create, a lot of times people were like, I just want to know the things not to give. Just tell me the pain points to avoid the sucky gift. So we did. There's a PDF if you go to giftologybook.com bacon your tribe can go download it for free. And on it is the 10 worst gifts to avoid giving. And the reason we created Was people just kept asking, like, what are the worst gifts ever? What are the worst gifts ever?

That's funny because I was going to ask you that was going to be one of my questions and you beat me to it. That's awesome.

Yes. Yeah. So 10 worst gifts to avoid. So it's not only the item, like, here's, you know, gift cards are the worst. It's also why, like, it's a simple one pager, but somebody can take it to their assistant or to their marketing team or to their leadership team and say, hey, are we. You know, most of the time people are like, oh, crap. Like I'm giving, like, almost all my gifts are on that top 10 list. I'm like, you know, whether you gift with us or not, like, here's some pointers, here's things to avoid. And it's not universal. Like, there are anomalies. Like I say don't give, you know, cash or money in many, in many cases. But I broke my own rule. But if I break the rule, I break it big and go all in. Most people are like, they break the rule and they give like, you know, 20 bucks to people. It's like lame. Like, if you're gonna give cash, make sure it's tangible, not a check or not like money, you know, not digital.

Here's a Venmo.

Yeah, I mean, it's just like, it's like monopoly money. But like real money shows up. Like, there's a reason that like casinos don't want you like walking around with like hundred dollar bills. They want you to walk around with chips because it feels like fake. So. So Anyway, the top 10 list, they go to giftology, book.com bacon. They can download it for free and then take and do it they want. If they're like, wow, this is good stuff, they can buy the book, which, you know, 20 bucks or whatever on Amazon or Audible or any of that kind of stuff. But oftentimes people want to like, get some, some meat to start with. The download is a great place to start.

Fantastic. And if people want to get ahold of you, is there any other way to do that? What's the best website or social or email or anything?

Yeah, I mean, I mean we're on all the social stuff, so Facebook and Twitter at Rule and all that kind of stuff. But I would say if they go to Ruling group is kind of our core website. And yeah, that'll be in the show notes.

I'll make sure.

Yep, perfect.

Well, man, John, this has been enlightening and I really love it. It's very, very cool, the things that you've shared. And I know that it brought back to my attention some of the things that I should be doing more often. Showing more gratitude and showing more appreciation to the people. A, just to show the gratitude, but, you know, B, strategically, because I'm in business as well, and you never know where it leads. And, you know, I want to give somebody that same experience like you gave Cameron. Like, you've given a lot of people and you've helped a lot of people give to others. So I think if more people did this, we'd have a lot, A lot more successful people, a lot happier people, and people having a lot more fun in business and life in general. So I love what you're doing. I love the mission, and I'm actually looking forward to next time I'm back in Eville giving you a holler. Maybe we'll go grab a beer.

Dude, that'd be great. Cleveland Heath is my. One of my favorite restaurants in the country. Really?

In the country?

Yeah, I really like it.

I wouldn't have said the country, but okay.

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, the atmosphere, the owners there, the people, it's. I mean, James Beard nominated restaurant. So, I mean, like, to have that in Edwardsville, Are you kidding me? That's pretty ridiculous. And I'm sure I'm biased because it's now my, you know, like my hometown, but. But I didn't grow up around here. But I love. I'm like, man, I can't believe a restaurant this level is in this tiny little.

I did grow up there, and I can attest that, yes, it is amazing that it's there.

It's awesome. So, yeah, Cleveland Heath it is. Next time you're in town, if I'm in town, I'd love to. I'd love to meet up.

That'd be fantastic. To all my listeners. Go check out it's giftologybook.com bacon. Is that correct?

Yep.

Cool. And all the other information are going to be in the show notes. And don't hesitate to reach out. Show some gratitude to somebody, whether you're using John and his and his company or whether you're just putting together a thoughtful thought and reaching out, like, potentially to one of your favorite podcast hosts. That's totally cool. And you can email me at AskBradAKenright business and find out exactly where to send that. But of course, I may want to be careful giving out my address to the entire public. That being said, if you really enjoyed this, share it on social media once more. Email me, ask bradakenratbusiness and stay tuned. I've got some really cool stuff coming up. John, thanks a lot for joining me on the show, brother.

Thanks for having me.

See you guys.