Can Meditation Really Stop CRIME? The Shocking Research Behind Transcendental Meditation! EP 393

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Close your eyes and imagine. What are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain? The things that bring us grief are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Welcome to Grief to Growth, everyone, where we explore life's most profound questions: who we are, why we're here, and how we can navigate the inevitable challenges of life. My name is Brian D Smith, and whether you're a longtime listener or you're joining us for the first time, thanks for being here. Our mission is to help you transform grief and hardship into growth and understanding. And today, I'm excited to welcome Patricia Saunders to the show. Patricia is a longtime teacher of Transcendental Meditation, having taught for years in the UK and now working at Maharishi International University here in the US. She's a bestselling author of the book An Antidote to Violence: Evaluating the Evidence, that dives into the fascinating concept that meditation not only benefits individuals, but can also create societal change. So imagine that by reducing personal stress through meditation, we can actually reduce violence, crime, and even societal unrest. And today we're going to explore those ideas and talk about the peer-reviewed research that backs us up. We'll talk about the Transcendental Meditation technique itself, what makes it different from other forms of meditation, and how it can really transform our lives by expanding happiness. She'll share insights of higher states of consciousness, how these stages of personal development can lead to deeper and more lasting joy, and happiness, which is what we all want, right? And what it means for the future of our society if more people adopt this practice. So if you're curious about meditation's potential to create both personal happiness and a more peaceful world, you're in the right place today. So stick around for ways— for the conversation. And after we have the conversation, join us at grief2growth.com/community to continue the conversation there. And with that, I want to welcome to Grief 2 Growth Patricia Saunders.

Thank you, Brian. Thank you very much for inviting me on. It's a, it's a great honor to be here, and I totally support everything that you've just said about your own podcast and, um, hope that I have something useful to contribute to it.

Oh, I'm absolutely sure that you do have something useful to contribute. Um, I, I like— I was reading about your, your information you gave me to introduce, and you said, you know, basically the purpose of life is to life of creation is to expand the happiness. And I think the Maharishi said that. So could you tell me what that actually means?

Yes, I can. I mean, happiness is something we all want. It's something we all feel we have a right to and that we should be able to achieve. And I'm not talking about temporary happiness. I mean, we can find, you know, temporary happiness in different ways. I mean, a a very, uh, you know, a really nice friendship or a loving relationship, or, you know, even a sort of wedding can make us feel happy, or the hobbies we have, or the work we have if we enjoy it. Um, and that's good. I mean, that's, you know, that's important in people's lives, all those things, but they are on the temporary scale, because I mean, a friendship can change, somebody moves away, so it becomes a little more distant. Relationships— well, we know what can happen with relationships, um, you know, all these things are very temporary. So what Maharishi, who brought the Transcendental Meditation technique to the West, is talking about is a very deep, permanent happiness, something that is a very stable joy that we have inside, that we can develop inside, let's put it that way. So that it doesn't matter what we're doing, we have that stability inside, that, that sense of joy, knowing who we are. And whatever happens, we carry that with us, we don't lose it. And that takes some time to develop, but, um, it does start with really the very first few meditations that we actually have. And I'm talking about Transurfing meditation because it's the technique I do myself, I teach it and all the rest of it. But any meditation technique that somebody does, any credible meditation technique, should also, you know, bring about the same thing. But I only know how to talk about TM, Transcendental Meditation, really, so that's what I'm going to talk about. And it's a very simple mental technique. It's practiced silently with the eyes closed, sitting in a comfortable position. Um, it doesn't focus on breathing, it's not concentration, we don't have to try to clear our mind. It just allows the active thinking mind to settle down inwardly and experience what we call pure consciousness or the transcendent. And at that point, we transcend all activity of the mind and just experience peace and happiness. And it's an experience that's way beyond the mind and the senses. The transcendental state, well, What can I say about that? It's different to the states of consciousness we're familiar with— waking, dreaming, sleeping, and so on. It's a fourth state of consciousness that's beyond those three. Um, all concept of— I think the relative world just fades away at that time, and the mind just slips into this universal field of peace and bliss, this universal field of consciousness that lies beyond the mind and the senses. And people call it with different names. I mean, depending on the tradition, it's been called Samadhi, the Self, the Tao, for instance, Being, Oneness, and the peace of God that passeth all understanding. Um, there are many, many different names depending on the tradition, but it's really just one one field, one omnipresent field that gives rise to everything, everything that we see. Um, at least this is my philosophy and my understanding as well of the transcendent. It gives rise to everything and it permeates everything, and we've just forgotten it. We've forgotten to look for it, we've gotten to find it, and we've forgotten that it exists within ourselves. Um, you know, we, we look— tend to look for happiness in different directions. I mean, even people struggling for success in business or power in politics or something. Um, you know, we all need happiness. It doesn't matter where we are. Um, and we all need to find the transcendent. And to experience the transcendent, because it's a little bit like the old method of dyeing cloth. I expect some of your readers anyway will be familiar with this. You know, you, you have a piece of ordinary cloth and you want to dye it yellow, for instance, so you dip it in the dye. And in the old days, they used to leave it out in the sun to fade it, and then they dip it back in the dye, leave it out in the sun. Sun would fade it, but not quite as much as the time before. And so it goes on until the dye is fast. And that's really what's happening with Transcendental Meditation, is that we're dipping into the transcendent. And every time we experience that very deep peace, um, and that very deep happiness, then every time we come back from that, we bring something, a tiny little bit, back with us. And that gradually builds up in our physiology, in our awareness, everything that we are until, you know, we just carry around that inner stability of peace and that happiness that comes with that. I mean, peace is really the basis of happiness. I mean, without peace there can be no happiness. Um, very hard to be happy if one's living in turmoil and stress everywhere. We get it from the news, we get it from adverts, you know, it comes across in the media, the movies that we watch and so on. We need to somehow step back from all that. I mean, there are plenty of outlets which will just say, well, you know, this is it, you have one life and you make the most of that life and so on and so on, and then that's it. But that isn't it. That's very far from it. I mean, I don't know what many of your audience, most of your audience would think. Um, I hold to the idea of, obviously, of reincarnation. I think that we live many lives until we reach a state of fulfillment, and then we're in a very full place, fulfilled place, wherever we are. But that's a sort of an aside, because one doesn't have to adopt any particular belief. You know, one practices TM in the same way that one might practice yoga or tai chi, practice tai chi or taekwondo or something like that. But all these things have deeper levels which we can adopt if we want to. It's enough to just practice TM for about 20 minutes morning and evening. Just sitting in any comfortable position, not adopting any particular state, and that's enough. One can obviously go into it further. One can explore the, the knowledge behind Transcendental Meditation. One can take on advanced techniques, but you don't have to. It's not a belief system, it's not a religion, it's, it's just a technique, simple mental natural technique. And so what do we actually get? I mean, you know, you asked about happiness, the goal. I mean, you're really talking about the goal of life. And I think for really that the goal of life is to increase experience and increase that deep, long-lasting happiness that makes everything worthwhile so that whatever we're doing, we're still inside and we can't be knocked around like a football of circumstances. I mean, everything today, it's, it's so— it's— there's so much turmoil, so much divisiveness and polarity and all the rest of it. But if you have that stillness inside, then yes, you know, one can see one side, one can see the other side, one can, you know, not be knocked around by different opinions and different views and so on. Um, so what does TM actually do on just on the sort of, in a way, kind of the superficial level— not the superficial level, but the more mundane everyday level? What it does is it helps to activate the body's relaxation response, and so it reduces stress and anxiety. And that's a very important factor, especially if somebody has been, um, you know, experiencing a lot of, a lot of stress, a lot of anxiety. Um, those are shadows on life. I mean, they don't bring any joy with them. They just somehow shadow our ability to, to see that, you know, the real happiness in life that exists there just under the surface. And it improves mental clarity and overall cognitive functioning, which is important if one's working or, you know, in just, um, in, in being involved in hobbies or whatever. And it also promotes a state of inner calm and emotional stability. Overall well-being. But I think, you know, for the purposes of people who are suffering or have suffered from grief, emotional stability is something that is very, very important and something again that people want. Because, you know, grief, again, it's another shadow. It's inevitable. You know, something happens, there's some change. It's not just involved— grief doesn't just involve, you know, somebody deceased. It involves any kind of change, you know, something changes, a friendship changes, um, you know, a relationship ends, or we have to move house, you know, work takes us somewhere else, and there is some grief involved. There's always some grief involved in those. But just to develop that emotional stability is very important, um, because, all right, you have to move house, well then you do this, this, this, and this, and you move. It doesn't mean that one doesn't feel anything, but it means there's much more stability than there has been in the past. Yeah. And I mean, I can go on forever, Brian D Smith.

So no, I get— I can tell you're very enthusiastic about it, and that's awesome. I, I, and thank you for that, for that explanation. Um, I'm just, I'm curious as to what brought you to TM. Did you practice other techniques before? What were you looking for? How did— what was— what's your background with it?

Stay with us, we'll be right back.

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Um, I didn't practice any other techniques, but I was definitely searching. I mean, I searched in all sorts of different ways. I mean, I read books on theosophy, for instance, which, um, was sort of prominent and popular in the, I don't know, the 19 20s, 1930s. I read books on how to achieve peace inside and how to, you know, all these how-to books that help you feel better about yourself and about the world and everything. And I was a little interested in astrology, for instance, and I started reading up on that. And then other, other things came I explored some— I explored the religion I was brought up in, which was Christianity, quite extensively at that time. Somehow, you know, it— excuse me— it all helped, but nothing quite filled what I was looking for, the gap that was there. And then I happened to— actually, it's quite funny, really— I happened to bump into my dentist's wife in in the parking lot, and she had organized a talk on Transcendental Meditation because both she and her husband did it, and he was my dentist. So, um, you know, I was quite interested because I didn't somehow associate my very staid, respectable dentist with practicing some rather weird-sounding meditation technique from, uh, that came from another culture. Um, so I was curious, so I went along. But, you know, the person who gave the talk was a wonderful individual, and I just had the feeling, this is it, I have to do this, at least I have to try it. So I did, and I've never looked back. I took advanced techniques, became a teacher of it, and of course ended up in the United States. And I came here to begin with anyway to to be on a very long meditation course, uh, which was designed to, um, not only help individuals experience, uh, deeper levels of consciousness, higher states of consciousness, but also had the aim of reducing crime in the U— in the US and, um, just generally improving the quality of life. And it was called the Invincible America Assembly. So I went, you know, I spent time on that. It's actually very interesting what happened with that, actually. If I can just move ahead a little bit, you did say I could ramble. I'm very good at rambling. That's never a problem.

That's awesome. Please, please do.

Yes. So, yeah. So the actual course began in 2006, but the main part of the experiment was between 2007 and 2011. So, um, what happened— there about 2,000 people came together all in one place and practiced both Transcendental Meditation and the more advanced, uh, Transcendental Meditation City program, which is just an advanced TM program, and we practiced it together. And then after a while, um, between 2007— it's quite interesting because, um, those who were researching, who are measuring the connection between the numbers practicing Transcendental Meditation and the crime rate, and for instance the amount of drug overdoses, and I think car accidents and other accidents within the US saw that it was going down. So they were all going down very considerably. The details of all this, by the way, are in my book Creating a Happy World, so I don't have to go into all the details, but just to say there was an undoubted connection between the buildup of numbers in the, uh, in Fairfield, in the domes where everybody came together and practiced TM. And, um, you know, this improvement in the quality of life, it's been seen before. It's been seen ever since 1974, actually, which is quite interesting. Um, and I think it was soon after that that the first published paper, peer-reviewed paper, on the phenomenon was actually you know, was actually published. But there, since then, there have been something like 20, 21, 22 other studies that have been done and have been published in very reputable journals, um, you know, social science journals, conflict resolution journals, and so on. The thing about measuring all these different variables like death, homicides, fewer homicides, or fewer drug overdoses, fewer car accidents, and so on, is that they are not related. Normally somebody might— a researcher might measure one of these, like homicides for instance, a decrease in homicides, and they see there's a new initiative that the police are doing, so the, you know, the city or the wherever the town is looked at, the statistics are measured, and, um, and they can see a result, but they won't necessarily see a result in decreased car accidents or decreased drug overdoses, right? These things are not necessarily connected. And yet when we had large enough numbers of people practicing, um, TM and its advanced program programs in the domes in Fairfield, then there was a very, very noticeable decrease in all a lot of different variables. Now, of course, you know, those 2,000 people had to be financed, so sponsorship came from, um, some very wealthy individuals who, you know, who were in a position to be able to do that. And that succeeded between 2007 and 2011. But of course, you know, in 2011, the inevitable happened and the finance was no longer readily available. And from then onwards, numbers decreased in the domes. And of course, the quality of life decreased as well. I mean, homicides increased and, you know, all these other things that I mentioned also increased. So, um, you know, there was a definite correlation, uh, between the people practicing Transcendent Meditation's advanced techniques in, um, the dome in one place and what was happening in the— well, actually, in this instance, the whole of the United States. Because what has been seen, or what has been put forward, is that it seems to be that If 1% of the population, um, of a city practice Transcendental Meditation, or the square root of 1% of the population practice Transcendental Meditation and its more advanced programs, then that's when you start to see a decrease in the crime rate. It's like a tipping point, um, you know, you have this tipping point and then improvements started. Sorry, Brian, did you want to say something?

Yeah, I just want to interrupt you just for a second. So, um, just so I understand, you said it in the dome, so you were physically coming together to practice, is that correct?

Yes, yes, yes, we did. We had 2,000 people in one place doing a long, long program. I mean, it was, um, about 8 hours a day. Wow. So they were not able to work, you know, it wasn't a situation where they could go out and work during the day and come back in the evening. Um, were really together for the whole period. And that was when there was a very, very noticeable decrease in homicide. I mentioned that specifically because that's probably what concerns people most. A very noticeable decrease in homicides. Infant mortality was another one that was mentioned, that was sort of measured. So all these different variables showed an increase, um,— what do I mean? It showed a decrease, an improvement. That's the word I was looking for. Thank you.

Yeah.

And, um, so, you know, I mean, we would absolutely love to see, uh, more sponsorship for this. We would love to see even government sponsorship. I mean, I may be asking a lot, but it's been measured too many times. I mean, you know, one one research experiment like that might be a coincidence. Two, you might say, well, there could be other factors involved. Five, you might say, well, you know, okay, there might be something in it, but there's not enough really to really prove it, right? But 20, 21, 22, all showing the same thing, um, it's, it's too— it's beyond— it's not a coincidence. It's, it's beyond, um It's beyond conventional thinking too. And one needs people, you know, wealthy people, governments, to be able to think outside the box really and say, okay, I'll try it. Even if they want to prove that we're wrong, let them set up a group and try it. Prove us right, prove us wrong. Um, yeah, the important thing is to have a large group and demonstrate that this is a very real phenomenon I've got—

but the engineer in me is coming out, so I've got a few questions for you. So, um, in terms of— are you familiar with Lynne McTaggart, the work that she's done?

Um, I've heard the name, you know, she's done— but I know the name.

It's similar work with— but it's more like the power of intention. So it's like people set an intention. So I want to understand what the meditation that you were doing and these groups are doing was it wasn't focused on any particular— because it's, as I understand TM, it's like it's the opposite of some other meditation techniques where it's focused concentration. So you weren't focusing on like, we're trying to drive down the murder rate, or we're trying to improve— you were just doing TM, is that correct?

That's correct. Um, yes, I mean, that's very interesting, and I definitely want to, you know, I'd like to meet her, and I definitely like to know more about what she's doing. I think the thing is that I mentioned earlier the transcendent. Transcendent can be described as being— it's, you know, samadhi. It's a universal state of conscious— not a state of consciousness. It's a universal consciousness that permeates everything. So if we— if the mind settles down to that field and experiences that peace and happiness, it can be described as maybe dropping a stone in a pond. You drop a stone in a pond here and the ripples just ripple out across the, um, you know, across the wherever. I mean, across the state, across the country. I mean, if we had a large enough group, across the world. But I mean, wherever, doesn't matter. So I think it can be understood in that way because that the transcendent— I mean, we call it pure consciousness. It's omnipresent, it's everywhere. It's like something that is just beyond our field of vision that we don't experience, right? But it's there, and it's the most important thing, um, probably the most important thing in the universe. Well, I mean, it is the most important thing in the universe because it gave, you know, as far as I'm concerned, it gave rise to the universe, right? But again, you know, if one can influence that, and you can only influence in a positive way, because that field, the transcendent being, Samadhi, whatever, the Tao, whatever you want to call it, it's, it's a completely positive field. And it's not possible to think very, you know, negative thoughts from that field. When the mind settles down, it just becomes more peaceful, more happy, um, more— I think more in a state of grace, one could even call it, right? So yeah, just—

I'm sorry to interrupt, I want to make sure that the listeners are following along with this, um, because when it comes to meditation, a lot of us, we've heard different things, and we might have heard of TM from like the '70s and for some of us, that's kind of before we were doing all this. So we're like, yeah, I've heard this thing called TM, but now there's all this, as you mentioned earlier, there's focus on your breath, focused on this, there's, you know, people are doing law of attraction and manifestation where you're, you know, you're focused, you're really focusing. So, uh, just to, just to reiterate, with Transcendental Meditation, we are literally not focusing. So could you explain to people like how that works? When I sit down to do my, my meditation, what am I doing?

Okay. What I should say first of all, is that Transcendental Meditation has this effect, because it allows the mind, the individual mind to expand to that universal mind, that universal being.

Yeah.

As far as I understand it, I think any real credible meditation that allows the mind to settle down and experience pure being transcendent should have a similar effect regardless. Yes, yes, should have a similar effect.

Yes.

Intention is obviously important, but you don't need to— I mean, the intention would just fade away anyway when one experiences pure consciousness. Where it is a little bit difficult to explain other than just by saying that, um, it's like dropping a stone, dropping a rock, dropping a boulder, whatever, into a large pond, um, and watching the water just ripple out and affect everyone at that level of being. Yeah, but I, I'm not, I'm not saying that, um, having a good intention isn't important. It is important.

No, it's not. And it's, it's really interesting to me because I think you're right. Any, any meditation technique is trying to get us to the same place. It's different ways of getting there, you know, different paths to, to reach that state. Um, and, and not that anyone is better or any worse than, than the other one. I've tried several. Um, I, I've, I started off with contemplative prayer, you know, back I was a Christian and I was like, I need to find something to settle my mind. So I started doing some reading and I found about this, this practice that Christians do called contemplative prayer. And I moved from that to other, other techniques. And there's so much out there today. And, um, there's a guy that I, that I work with now, his name is Kelvin Chen. And he studied TM like 40, 50 years ago. And he's kind of got this technique now he teaches called Turning Within. And what I noticed with, with me anyway, it was a bunch of unlearning because we are so focused, you know, especially in the West, on technique. How do I do this? And he's like, stop trying. You know, it really kind of comes down to that.

Yes, it's true. I mean You know, I think any meditation, any credible meditation will have the same effect. One thing I will say about intention is, is pretty much what I think about prayer. People pray, and if they pray, they're expecting— they want a result, or they want to feel they've had some impact on someone somewhere, you know, in a positive way. Healing of some sort. Um, the deeper levels of the mind are more powerful, they're more charming, uh, they draw the mind like nothing else does. I mean, the mind isn't wandering at random. The mind wanders in order to find something more fulfilling. So if the mind is given a technique, that's a little bit like diving off a diving board that just allows the mind to be able to experience this. And TM is a mantra knee, because I think people probably know. Then it has, you know, it draws the mind down. And what I was going to say about prayer is that prayer, and I would think intention, are more powerful if they're— if they come from a deeper level of the mind. The surface level of the mind is probably the least powerful level of the mind.

Interesting.

But as the mind settles down, um, you know, the thinking softens, um, feeling is— the feeling just becomes more positive. There's more bliss, there's more happiness. Any prayer that comes from a deeper level of the mind is going to be more effective, and that's why it's very good to pray after meditation.

Wow.

Because the mind is still at that level.

Yeah.

It's not at the deepest level, but it still, um, has the influence of that very deep state of being, of oneness. And to pray after meditation is going to be far more effective.

That's a, that's a really interesting observation, and that makes a lot of sense. And it's, it's really It's interesting you say that because, like I said, I started— I read about these Christian mystics that would do— they call contemplative prayer. So I think it's a way of reaching that, that deeper state where you're closer to, to Source, um, than we are with the, with the surface level of the mind, which is, you know, it's kind of scattered. And what, what's interesting about the, the TM technique versus— I don't even like to call it a technique, but the TM way of doing things versus some of the other things is a lot of us say— well, people will say to me, because I'm like, I tell everybody, you have to practice mindfulness. You know, you just— it's like, do you brush your teeth every day? Then you have to practice mindfulness. But you have to find what works for you. And people get really frustrated because they're told sit down and stop thinking, and that's, that's impossible. We can't do it. People get frustrated and they get up and say, you don't understand, I can't meditate because I can't stop my mind.

You don't need to stop the mind because once the mind has an angle, once the mind is able just to settle down, the mind, the deeper levels of the mind will draw it. They'll draw the surface level down until it does experience the most it's spirit, it's source, basically, in being, or as I say, Tao, or whatever you want to call it. You know, the mind will settle down to that level, providing it's given a technique that can allow it to do that, right, without too much effort. Because I'm not saying— I mean, obviously, focus attention meditations or open monitoring meditations, which I think probably Mindfulness comes under one or other of those different mindfulness techniques, are either, tend to be either focused attention or open monitoring. And you know, they're good. I mean, fine, I'm not decrying them at all.

Right.

It's just that it will take longer. I mean, it may be that there's a certain point with focused attention where the mind just gets a little tired of focusing and just lets go. And then the mind is able to slip down to, you know, to deeper levels. Um, I'm not an expert on other forms of meditation.

Sure.

I'm curious as to, you know, what the, the different mechanics are, but they obviously are effective, right?

Right. And I, again, yeah, I think, um, I think we agree we're not here to, we're not here to say people, this is a bad form or that, that form doesn't work. Um, I tell people try different ones because I've found everybody's different. So for some people, focused attention is okay, and, um, for other people, you know, TM is easier. So try and find the one that helps you reach this, this, uh, state that we're trying to get to. Um, I think there's a reason why there are different techniques. Like, there's different, you know, different religions that help people, that guide people hopefully to the same place.

Yes, absolutely. Or different diets for people. I mean, the same diet doesn't necessarily work for every single person. We're all different and we have to find our own path. I mean, I think that's, you know, most people would agree with that. There's no one path that's absolutely right for every single person. Um, I can talk about Transurfing meditation and tell you all about it, uh, Other people will talk about other forms of meditation.

Sure.

Um, and we meet in the middle because, as you said earlier, we all want the same goal. We want individuals to be fulfilled, to be at peace, to be happy, um, to experience higher states of consciousness, to, you know, to, to be able to just impact what we call the collective consciousness. In a very positive way.

Yeah, well, I think that's, you know, one of the things I was really fascinated about having this conversation with you, because I remember when I was a child and I was raised Christian and we were taught to fear other religions. And one of the criticisms about Eastern religions is that they're, they're so inward focused, they're, they're selfish, they're all about the individual. Um, and what I think is going to be interesting is a lot of people now is to hear, because a lot of us turn to meditation because we have a problem. We have stress, we have high blood pressure, we have depression, we have, you know, we have a, we have a problem. And so we're— it's, it's trying to get something for myself. But what I think is surprising people is that, wow, I can actually benefit society. I could have an impact on crime rates, I can have an impact on drug overdoses.

Um, I think that's really cool that that's coming out of the research that you participated Yes, that's, that's a, actually, that's a really nice question because even if we are just doing it for ourselves with no thought about society or anything, and even if we didn't have an impact or much of an impact on society by improving ourselves, then we're going to have some impact on those around us. I mean, it's like, you know, a mother who's got got 3 children and, um, you know, she's running around trying to fit in sort of work and getting the children to school and come back and, um, help them with their after-school activities, you know, all the rest of it. This, you know, that is hugely, or can be hugely stressful. Um, schedules, time, do this, get that child ready, get that child ready, all the rest of it. Now, if the mother gets very stressed, then it's going to affect the children, it's going to affect the whole family, it's going to affect the husband, partner, whatever. But if the mother has something that allows her just 20 minutes morning and evening just to be at peace, to reduce stress, to decrease anxiety, and to feel a little happier inside, then that's going to help the children, it's going to help the family. Um, so even if she's just doing it for herself with no thought of, um, family or anything— sorry, with no thought of society— then that's valuable. That's really valuable.

Oh yeah.

And of course, um, you know, the, the added blessing to this is that we can have an effect on society. We do it through collective consciousness. And when you asked earlier about the mechanics, I think that the best way to explain this, apart from the stone in the pond, is the, the idea of collective consciousness. People call it under different names. I mean, I've seen it described as collective mind, universal mind, or just mind, you know, societal mind or something. But what it is, is that it's the togetherness, the connectedness of all the different consciousnesses of people who make up a society, any group, a group, a society, or whatever. Mm-hmm. It forms a collective consciousness, and that collective consciousness will have the character of the people who inhabit it.

Yeah.

So, um, it can be influenced in a positive way. And when individuals meditate and the mind settles down, they meditate, they're at peace, they feel more happiness, this impacts the collective consciousness, and that's going to have an effect on the whole group, simply at the very, very basic level, the level of being, it's going to affect everybody in that group. And when you have 1%, um, acting and behaving in, in a more positive, um, life-supporting way, then again, that's going to have a real impact, a real big impact on collective consciousness. And that's what's to help.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's really interesting when you, when you shared your example about the mother, uh, meditating twice a day and improving the family. Even the most materialistic of us will understand, of course, because her mood's improved, she's acting better, so the kids are gonna act better, the father's gonna act better, etc. But what's surprising to the materialists is that this spreads out, these ripples spread out in a way that we can't explain through materialistic explanations, right? How does my meditation lower the crime rate in, in my community? But, you know, a true scientist will do the, do the work like you've, like you've, you, you've done, right? And they've shown it. But because, because materialists can't explain the mechanism, they reject the premise.

Yes. I mean, they, they still regard the results of the, say, 22 demonstrations as still just mere coincidence or can be explained in other ways. It's often the case, I think. I mean, I'm not personally a scientist, although I'm interested in science, but the results often precede the theory, that the theory comes later. You know, a result is noted. And then gradually over time, um, the mechanism becomes obvious, right?

Right. Well, and then again, scientists, you know, you— they can— we have ways of doing statistical analysis and we can tell what's coincidence and we can tell what's significantly, you know, significant. Um, we have those, those methods, but when it comes to stuff like this, they— the, the, the hurdle gets higher, the bar gets higher. And I've seen, you know, I've studied some of this a little bit, at least the science of it. And most of these things have cleared the bar many, many times, you know, precognition, um, telekinesis, you know, all these things. They've done stuff in the lab. Remote viewing, the government knows it's real. They've, they've used it. They've, they've shown it's real, but still it gets, it gets, it's still secret to most people and And what I think is really, really interesting right now is almost everyone agrees that the world is like not the way we want it to be. No matter which side of the political spectrum you're on, we're all agreeing that, you know, there's too much violence, there's too much separation, there's too much conflict, and there's a lot of frustration. I hear people say, well, there's nothing I can do about it. And I like to be able to tell people there is something you can do about it. It. And what you're offering with, with this book and with the work you've done is there's hope. There's something we can, we can literally do about it.

Yes, absolutely. Um, I can only recommend that people read my book and, and other books, of course, around the same subject and decide for themselves whether this is a real phenomenon Um, but all I can say is that the results speak for themselves, right? We can influence our environment. Um, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Now, many people listening are going to have, uh, they've had issues with PTSD, post-traumatic stress, um, yes, uh, substance abuse disorders. We all are familiar with whether it's for ourselves or our loved ones.. And I know the David Lynch Foundation, uh, for research has shown that these techniques can be effective in dealing with those things. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

Yes, um, the David Lynch Foundation was set up to, um, increase the number of, uh, people who had access to Transcendental Meditation specifically, and it's since gone on to have different sections of it like Heal the Healers or Operation Wellness and so on. But it's— a lot of its work now has been done with veterans who, I mean, they, they see the absolute worst of human life, right? Um, even if they're not actually involved in a war zone or whatever, um, you know, they're still constantly prepared for the fact that they may have to be and that they can face these things. And of course, many of the soldiers— the military, rather— who, you know, who have been in a war zone, I mean, they come back with nightmares, terrible trauma, stress, and often feeling suicidal. So the David Lynch Foundation, um, you know, raises money basically, um, and organizes teaching so that people, um, the military who are suffering from PTSD and so on, um, can at least try Transcendental Meditation. And it has been shown that it does help a lot of veterans. To be able to deal and be able to recover from these things. Um, I mean, there have been some very remarkable stories, some of which I detail, I think, in my book, and certainly my previous book, An Antidote to Violence. Um, it doesn't bear thinking about, really, what the military has to go through, and anything that can help them is to be welcomed. So, you know, I just hope that the David Lynch Foundation can, can continue to raise enough money to be able to help as many former veterans as possible to, to recover and live normal lives.

Well, you know, it's interesting, as you said that and you mentioned veterans who have been in war zones and to see things that I don't believe human beings should see, And there's a reason why they end up with PTSD, because that's not normal. We shouldn't have to see that kind of stuff. But you also mentioned even veterans who hadn't been in war zones because of the anticipation. And my mind went to— we just had another school shooting, and it doesn't matter when we're recording this, but we just happen to have had one, uh, very recently in, in Georgia at this particular moment in time. And I worry about our children, and I worry about not only the ones involved in school shootings, but the drills that they're going through preparing for school shootings. And I, I believe that's a form of trauma if you're going to school every day thinking that, you know, you might be shot, you've got to practice for this. Um, so yeah, I just kind of— I know, I don't know if you've done any work with children, looked at anything like that, but I would love to see in our society teaching our children mindfulness techniques so they have those tools when they grow up to be adults.

Yes, I mean, I think that's absolutely right. I mean, mindfulness techniques, obviously Transcendental Meditation, or any form of meditation that can help children to, um, to be more mature, basically to be more developed as human beings. Um, to be less stressed, to be less anxious. I mean, where Transcendental Meditation has been introduced into schools, then there's been a really big difference between— for instance, even the academic grades go up, anxiety goes down, violence in school goes down. And I'm sure this is the same with other forms of meditation as well, but I You know, I only know what happens with TM. And, um, you know, I, I really would like to see— I share your desire for every school to be teaching some form of meditation, uh, whatever it is. Anything that works has got to be good. And I, you know, I would personally advocate for Transcendental Meditation, but I'm aware that I'm just aware that it's more important that society improves, that children have the best possible start in life and they're not hampered by violence and gangs and, you know, drugs and everything. I mean, it's, it's a terrible start in life, and I really think schools should be addressing this.

You know, it's funny, as we're talking about this, I, I I'm thinking about, uh, if this— if we were doing a drug ad, you know, an ad for, for a pharmaceutical, oh, it can help with PTSD, it can help with anxiety, it can help with depression, it can help with blood pressure, it can help with, you know, else, you know, etc., etc. And then the next question has got to be, well, what are the side effects? And it's the one thing that you can do where there are no negative side effects. There's there's— I've never seen any downside to any mindfulness technique at all.

No, no, not at all. Um, and there shouldn't be. I mean, there shouldn't be. I mean, very occasionally people have come to learn who have— or want to learn who have severe, um, mental challenges, let's put it that way. And we always advise anyone to go by the advice of their doctor, um, you know, and to keep in touch with their doctor. Basically, that's for their sake. It's for our sake. It's for their sake, or whatever.

Sure.

As far as I'm aware, that there are no side effects from TM. There are plenty of side benefits, right? Yeah, you know, no side effects.

And one, another thing I want to address, because you know, because of the society we live in, the way things are right now. Let's say we wanted to have an initiative to, to introduce mindfulness in the schools. Now, some people are going to say, well, that's against my religion. Um, you're, you're teaching another, you're teaching another religion. Uh, you know, you mentioned your background, I believe, was Christianity before you started on your spiritual exploration. Explain to people the religious or non-religious aspects of, of of TM?

Okay, well, TM is not a religion. It has no dogma attached to it. Um, there are no dos and don'ts. I mean, we teach people the technique and hope that they, they follow the, the instructions. Um, you can just go away and we need never see them again once they've learned. We don't keep tabs on people. Um, you know, it's just a simple, natural, innocent technique that can be, uh, practiced by anyone of any religion. And, you know, I mean, there are, um, there's at least one or two schools in Thailand, which is a Buddhist nation, um, who have introduced Transcendental Meditation alongside their their Buddhist religion. And the same thing, I think, in the West with Christian, uh, you know, Christian countries. Schools in the UK, schools in the US, a lot of schools in South America are very strongly, um, Christian part of the world, have introduced Transcendental Meditation. Um, very occasionally that there are people who— there are Christians maybe who do object, but it's less and less now because they see the results. And the results, as I say, as far as children are concerned, give children the best possible start in life.

I love what you said earlier about, uh, doing your meditation and then praying, right? There's, there's no reason why you can't pray what whatever particular way you want to do after you do your, your mindfulness, your settling. Um, I think that's a— I think it's a wonderful way to go. And it's, it's— I could tell a quick story. People have listened to me, have heard this before, but when I first started, I was going to this evangelical church, and I would go to church on Sunday morning, and I would go to yoga class afterwards. And one of my friends is like, oh, you can't, you can't do yoga. No, that's, that's bad. You're opening up your mind, and if you open up your mind, you never know what's going to come in. You know, demons could come into your mind. And I said, why couldn't good things come into my mind? Why couldn't the Holy Spirit enter my mind? And I get the same feeling of connectedness when I'm in church and having that experience as I do when I'm in the yoga studio and I have that experience. It's the same experience.

Yes, I mean, it's, you know, both, uh, innocent practices that people can take or leave. I mean, go into it as far as they want. I mean, the thing with yoga is many people just go in because they want to be fitter, or they, you know, they, they want to, um, they want to be calmer too. They feel it's going to benefit them in different ways. Nobody has to believe in the yoga tradition, um, in order to practice yoga. They just go to their local town hall or school or whatever, learn yoga, come back, go to church Sunday, you know, there's no conflict. And I like to think it's the same with Transcendental Meditation, that, um, you know, that there is no conflict really. If people want to see a conflict, they may find one, but it's not there, um, from the side of the technique or from our side.

Right, right. Well, I, I encourage people when it comes to things, try it. It, you know, try it and see how it works for you. Um, there's, you know, that's like I said, there's really, there's no, there's no downside to it. Uh, well, Patricia, we're coming to the end of our time. Um, I want to thank you for the conversation today. Uh, I know in the introduction I mentioned your earlier book, but let's talk about the books that you have and tell people if they want to reach out to you, if there's a way that anybody can, can get in contact with you.

Okay, um, so both books are available on Amazon. Uh, the, the oldest book is An Antidote to Violence. I wrote it actually with another author, Barry Spivak. And the, my latest book, Creating a Happy World, is also available on Amazon. I do have a website, it's, uh, peaceful peaceful-worlds.com. And I put worlds with an S, so it's not just peaceful worlds, it's peaceful worlds, so that all worlds, worlds within worlds, different communities can feel part of that.

Yeah.

And, um, so peaceful-worlds.com. My books are on that, and there's also a link from that to Amazon as well, so they can, uh, you know, they can look it up. And buy it if they want. And I would like to leave everybody with just a phrase from the Bhagavad Gita.

Awesome.

Yeah. For one without peace, how can there be happiness? So peace is very important. So we allow ourselves to become more peaceful, we experience more happiness, and that enables us to impact our environment.

Well, yeah, I think it's great. And again, we can impact our environment in very real ways. You know, sometimes people think, okay, well, just praying doesn't do anything, just wishful thinking doesn't do anything. It absolutely does. Your attitude matters, and we can change the world. So thanks for sharing that with us today.

Thank you, Brian D Smith. Thank you for inviting me on.

All right, enjoy the rest of your day.

Okay, thank you. Bye.

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