Conquering Shame: From Surviving to Thriving with Monica Gullotta | EP 434

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Close your eyes and imagine. What are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain? The things that bring us grief are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. All right, here we go. Hi everyone, I'm Brian D Smith, your host here at Grief 2 Growth. And whether you're tuning in for the first time, or you've been with us for a while, I want to warmly welcome you. This is a space where we navigate life's challenges together. We dive deep into who we are, where we came from, why we're here, where we're going, all those things. Our goal is to turn pain into purpose, and to find hope even through the hardest experiences. And today I'm honored to welcome Monica Gulotta to the show. Monica is an educator, a lecturer, and an accomplished author who has spent decades supporting people dealing with panic, anxiety, depression, and most importantly for our conversation today, shame. She founded the Upstate Group for Panic, Anxiety, and Depression back in 1999. She facilitated it for 16 years, and later went on to establish the Ray of Hope Wellness Center in 2009, where she's been offering one-on-one mentoring ever since. Monica has also been recognized by the Mental Health Association of Onondaga County for innovative work empowering individuals to help themselves. Monica is the author of 3 books: Therapy Land: Rethinking Anxiety and Depression, Two Important Messengers, and her newest, Conquering Shame: Surviving to Thriving. And in today's episode, we'll explore some profound topics, including what shame is, how it takes root, the way it impacts our lives, and her groundbreaking developmental and recovery stages of shame model. We'll also talk about how shame can deepen our experiences of grief, and the 4 core elements crucial for healing. So if you've ever wrestled with feelings of not being enough, or if you've ever wondered how emotional wounds can silently shape our lives, you'll definitely want to stay with us through this episode. And remember, after the episode, I invite you to continue the conversation at grieftogrowth.com/community, where I will be, and you can ask any questions you like about the episode. So with that, I'd like to welcome to Grief to Growth, Monica Gulotta.

Hello, Brian, and all your wonderful viewers. It's a delight to be here. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast. I'm so excited to talk about shame and enlighten your viewers about shame. So thank you from the bottom of my heart to be here. I'm just very excited. Thank you.

It's wonderful to have you here. And we— before we got started recording, we found out we have a mutual connection. Lucinda Bassett, which I know you've written a book about anxiety and depression. Yeah, I used to suffer from that, had terrible panic attacks. And I can say her work definitely helped me.

And myself as well. She's an extraordinary woman. And she's, she's still out there alive and well. So thank you very much, Lucinda Bassett, for helping Brian and myself. Thank you.

Yeah, well, we're here today to talk about your work. And specifically, we're going to talk about— we could talk about the other things as well. We want to talk about Conquering Shame. And for people that are listening, they may not even understand how insidious and how prevalent shame is. So let's start off by what is shame and where does it come from?

Okay, so first and foremost, as you said, shame is a very, very insidious emotion. And it can hijack an individual at any waking moment without them ever even knowing it. And that is why I decided to write a book about shame and to help your viewers understand how debilitating shame can be, and above all, that they can absolutely conquer shame. So first and foremost, shame is an emotion. Shame is not a mental illness, and shame is also environmentally induced. So very quickly, some of the root causes for shame include the following: Harsh words from parents, caregivers, family members, um, also, um, childhood abuse, neglect, abandonment, bullying, poverty, mental illness, religion, secrets, discrimination, the dominant culture, and sexuality. You typically see a lot of individuals in the LGBTQ community that are grappling with shame. So very quickly, myself personally, I was raised in a very dysfunctional home. And my mother had issues with her own frail ego. And she had enormous amounts of shame herself. So she was not able to process her own shame. So what in fact she did was she projected her shame upon me. And then I internalized the shame. And also in the environment with my father, there was not a lot— it wasn't really a warm fuzzy kind of a home. There wasn't a lot of secure attachment and attunement. And so again, I internalized that there were issues wrong with me. So what happened was the shame became internalized. It became an internal wound. An attachment wound that needed to be processed and dislodged. But the problem was, I never knew that I had shame. And so for years and years and years, I was going on throughout my life, this big overachiever, you know, a cheerleader, you know, degrees, writing books, facilitating workshops. I opened up my own center, and I never knew that I was grappling with shame. This is unbelievable. Until 2020, I was doing an interview on the radio and I literally used the wrong word. And at that moment, oh my goodness, it opened up all the floodgates for my shame and it started to spiral out of control to the point where it was like I was shutting off and shutting down. And I knew at that point, oh my God, I need to get help. What is going on here? And this is the most amazing thing. One day I'm working with my therapist, and again, I don't know what the heck's wrong with me. And during the session, I'm literally feeling such toxic shame. And I also want to talk about the levels of shame from my book with you. But my shame was so toxic that I literally, I promise you, during the session, I could not even lift my head up. So I am so consumed and engulfed with and by shame. I'm feeling so wretched that I can't even put my head up, at which point he says to me, do you know that you have shame? And I was like, what? What are you talking about? So I was taken aback. And he's like, yeah, has anybody ever told you that? And I was like, no, I had no idea. And that was how I learned after 5 decades or so of just white-knuckling it through life and having to be perfect, yada, yada, yada. What in essence was driving my behavior was unresolved shame that was environmentally induced in a dysfunctional home, you know, through my parents who were, you know, incapable of not giving me what I needed. So, yeah.

Wow, that's fascinating. And as you were having— as you were saying that, you know, I never heard shame talked about as an emotion before. And we hear a lot about emotions now. We're— this is great. We're at a place where we are talking about emotions, and we hear about fear and guilt, and we hear about anxiety, and we hear about, you know, things like that, anger. But I don't think I've heard anybody talk about shame as an emotion.

Yes, yes.. And again, it is a very, very insidious emotion. And not only is it very insidious, I would also say this, it's a very intelligent emotion, because shame does not want to be revealed, it does not want to be exposed. So in essence, it wants to remain covert, if you will, it wants to remain hidden. And the interesting piece in that is, the more it remains covert, and the individual wants to cut off or isolate oneself from it, actually cultivates it. So it's kind of like a catch-22. And that, in essence, is problematic, because shame is somewhat like a cancer. The more you cultivate it—

excuse me—

by cutting off and cutting it off, it metastasizes and creates more and more problems.

Wow, interesting. And you talked about some of the, the causes because you said it can, it can be induced environmentally. And as you were— yes, having that conversation— yes, I remember talking to my therapist when I was like in my 30s and I was suffering from panic attacks. He told you, I told you about, you know, uh, working with Lucinda Bassett's, uh, stuff.

Yeah.

And I went to see my therapist and I, I was like, I'm panicking, I'm feeling terrible all the time. And we never use the word shame, but I realized mine was induced by my religious background. That were, you're, you're terrible. God doesn't love you. God can only love you if you do these things.

Yes.

And she brought that out of me. And I'm like, I had no idea it was there.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's funny that you say that, Brian, because I have been in private practice now for over 25 years. And you cannot believe how shame continues to surface and resurface over and over and over again. And unbeknownst to like myself, and, you know, the vast majority of people in the world, shame is driving their behavior. And in terms of religion, I might want to open that up just a little bit. Again, I don't want to in any way, shape, or form impose my religion or my thoughts on anybody, because everybody has vastly different views. But I have found that over the years, religion can absolutely induce shame to the point where people feel so badly about themselves. Oh my goodness, you know, I had premarital sex, I'm going to hell. I'm, you know, I'm gay, you know, I'm not welcome into the church. And that shame can be so— it affects them in such an adverse way, it then affects functionality. And again, this is what's so interesting about shame. And I kind of want to move into the, the effects of shame. But at any rate, if the individual hasn't processed the shame, it can then induce anxiety and depression and addiction.

Exactly. Yeah.

So very quickly, if you don't mind, I just want to kind of segue into the effects of the shame, and then bring back religion into the equation. So some of the effects of shame, and there is a plethora of them. So first and foremost, addiction. Addiction, because the individuals that are grappling with shame, the emotion is so toxic and so painful that they want to cut themselves off from it, in essence, dissociate from it. So that some of them are going to eat, they're going to drink, they're going to engage in pornography, because again, they just don't want to feel it. So hence they self-medicate. Um, other effects would include anxiety, depression, codependency, perfectionism, imposter syndrome, withdrawal, um, self-sabotage, isolation, and suicidal ideation. So there's a whole plethora of side effects. And again, for me, um, there was the imposter syndrome. So for me, what I did was throughout my life, I was always trying to overcompensate, be superachiever, superwoman, so I could not have to, in essence, deal with that shame. So it would be a way for me to dissociate from that shame. So going back to the religion piece, so again, there's that I'm bad, I had premarital sex, I'm not in good racism. I don't fit in with the church, you know, the model, or I, I don't, you know, I, I don't fit in. I'm an outcast. The sins or the things that they're carrying, in essence, and the shame, it then anchors them down. And then as a result, they might feel like, oh my goodness, I feel so badly about myself that I don't want to talk about my shame that I'm having and what I kind of experienced within the church. And in doing so, unbeknownst to them, it's cultivating more shame. So shame begets shame. And it has, again, this metastasizing effect.

Now, I, I could be wrong about this, but my, my study of human nature, I think that all of our emotions have a place, you know, that there are no quote-unquote bad emotions. And I, and I think about shame, and I think about the way the church and society— it's not just religion, and it's not just any one particular church, by the way. All religions do this, and we do it as human beings. We— it's a part of our socialization process. We want to, we want to make people into productive, good citizens, and, and we have this thing that says, I want to be liked. Yes, that's a normal, healthy thing. We want to be social beings. Yeah, but it gets out of— it gets out of control. And I remember you met— you mentioned LGBTQ earlier. And I have an uncle who was gay, and the church, you know, would not accept gay people at that time.

Right.

And I struggled with like, what am I thinking about this? Because the church teaches this. So I got this book called What Does the Bible Really Say About Homosexuality? Before that, I read a book that was coming from the other side, Why Being Gay Was Bad. And people would cite things like, well, the rate of suicide is higher among gay people. The rate of drug addiction is higher among gay people. Therefore, it must be bad behavior. And I thought, I think it's the other way around. I think it's because you're telling them they're bad people.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Brian D Smith, I want to speak to that. So in essence, they— these messages that become internalized, may it be again, we're not pointing fingers at anybody, but in some instances, certain, you know, certain things people say in the church or the dominant culture. And this idea, notion is if you don't you know, if you don't go along, you don't get along, you're deemed as problematic, you're then outed. And again, that induces shame. That's not true. And again, that's where shame comes from on a macro level, the dominant culture, or again, right, religion. And again, sometimes I don't know, I think for the most part, people are good, and they strive to help people. But some of those messages about, well, you have to fit, you in essence have to conform. And if you don't, well, guess what, then, oh, you're not like us, that induces shame. And I want to share a story with you, if I may. This is the most beautiful story. And I think it's really going to resonate with some of your viewers. So I have a very, very diverse client base. And now when I work with clients, I'm very, very cognizant of shame and how it rears its head. And the other day, I was working with one of my newest clients. She's beautiful. She's African American. And she was adopted into a white family. And the other day, she and I were working and she says, you know, Monica, I want to share a story with you. There's something that's really bothering me. And I said, absolutely, you go right ahead. She says, well, She said, "It was Easter, and all of our family, we were all together, and we were getting ready to gather and have Easter dinner." And I'm like, "Oh, that sounds great." She goes, "No, not really." And I said, "Well, why is that?" She goes, "Well, because when everybody sat at the table," she said, "I couldn't sit at the table." And I said to her, "Why not?" She goes, "I don't know." This was shame speaking. So I said, well, where did you end up sitting? She goes, well, I ended up sitting off to the other table with some other people. And I was like, oh my goodness. And at that moment, I knew exactly what was going on. Her shame was becoming reactivated because somehow, some way, she didn't feel good enough. She didn't feel entitled to sit at that table. So at that moment, I thought to myself, how do I reframe the shame? So what I said to her was this. I said, I want to ask you a question. In a garden, I said, is there all one color flower? And she looked at me and she goes, no. And I said, that's right. I said, you know, God's a very diverse God. There's all marigolds and daffodils and whatever. She goes, yeah, you're right. She says, but what kind of flower would I be? Again, there's the shame. And I said to her, you would be the most beautiful flower of all. And she says, what? I said, have you ever heard of a beautiful black rose? And the moment I said that, And I said, but wait a minute, a beautiful black rose in the morning with the morning dew on it is the most extraordinary thing. And I said to her, that is what you are. And at that moment, she put a smile on her face and she was like, oh, but what I was able to do after that, obviously, was to approach and address the shame. And what was going on with her was not a symptom of what was wrong with her in essence. But what the dominant culture— what— led her to believe about herself. And that, in essence, is a perfect example of how insidious shame is and how it can affect people. And throughout our interview, I'll be more than happy to share stories upon short stories about shame that people are just oblivious to and unaware of its effects.

Yeah, well, thanks for sharing that. And I think it's, it's really important for people to try and understand, again, all these different places that, that this comes from.

Yeah.

And I can tell you, as being an African-American person raised in this culture in the 1960s, you know, people will look at me even now and say, well, what do you mean that you feel different? What do you mean you feel like an outcast? And it's like, yeah, because this is the way the culture makes us feel. And, you know, as you were saying that, I was also thinking about— and again, think about LGBT cute people, because people will say, well, why do we need to have Gay Pride? Why do we? And when I was a kid, I was like, why do we need to have Black Pride? And I realized that's, that's the counter-narrative. We need that. We need to have that counter-narrative to this fact that you're, you're different, therefore it's bad.

Exactly. Exactly. And we want to really change that narrative. We want to embrace everyone because there's— I firmly believe there's nothing wrong with any of us. We are all children of God. We are all beautiful. We are all unique. We all have something to offer. We all have something to say. And by gosh, we should say it and we should be able to embrace ourselves with, with no apologies. And that's what I try to teach my clients. And I'm also trying to teach myself because having dealt with shame myself for over 5 decades, I know how it feels.

Yeah, and I think, I think most of us probably have this at some level from somewhere, you know. It's, we, it's interesting, we look at, we'll look at other people and think, oh, well, they're so well adjusted, they don't have the problems that I do. But I haven't talked to too many people, in fact very, very few, that don't have some sort of imposter syndrome. And it seems like the higher performer we are, the stronger that imposter syndrome is. Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief? Most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become. A place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there.

Absolutely. Like I said, I was going on for decades upon decades white-knuckling it, not even knowing it. And if you don't mind, I'll share a story with you.

Yeah, please.

So, um, I used to facilitate support groups for over 16 years. I wrote all of my own material, presented everything. I had 3 support groups that I was simultaneously running at the same time. And I will never forget, Brian, I would be up in front of the group and there would be like, oh, 20 people in the group at a time. And literally the whole time I'm presenting, Okay. And I'm going off memory and I'm presenting in the back of my mind the shame nonstop. Who do you think you are? You know, the imposter syndrome. You're a fake. You're a phony. Do you think they really are getting something out of this? Why don't you just sit down and shut your mouth because you don't know what you're talking about? That was the severity of it. And I just had to keep pushing through and pushing through. And again, just really want to emphasize what was driving that behavior was the shame. I didn't even feel worthy. I know this sounds absurd, but I did not even feel worthy to get up in front of people and to speak because I was this pathetic, defective person. Well, if your own parents can't love you, then who else will?

Yeah, I, I, well, I can relate to that.

Yeah.

You know, I think that, and I think what it is again, as a layperson, those voices from outside of us, our parents, our teachers, dominant culture.

Yep.

They become internalized. Yeah. And then they just play on a loop and we don't even know where they came from. I feel like it's part of us.

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And again, its insidious nature creates a whole host of problems. And then, you know, problems beget more problems. And the sad reality is this: a person can then get ushered into the mental health system. You know, they're told, well, you know, you have anxiety, you have suicidal ideation, you have this, this, this, and this, but they never address the shame component. And then again, that's why I wrote my book. And I just want to interject something very quickly about my book and about shame. So very quickly, there's 4 different levels of shame. So there's low, There's moderate, there's severe, and there's toxic. So within my book, I provide a questionnaire because it really allows people to hone in on the shame and determine what level of shame they're grappling with. Again, I just want to keep reiterating and reinforcing the power of shame and how covert it is. And there's so many people that are just walking around, like, in their day-to-day life, and they have no clue that shame is driving the behavior and destroying their lives.

Yeah. So what would be some indications that people can look for that, you know, if they're not conscious of the shame? Um, you mentioned, you know, imposter syndrome. What are some other things that people can look for in their lives where they may feel like, you know, something just doesn't feel right but I don't know what it is?

All right, so if they're dealing with a lot of addiction If they're like, oh my God, you know, let me give an example. So years ago, I was working with, with a client, and he was grappling with a pornography addiction. So what happened was he was always, whenever he engaged in the addiction, afterwards, the shame cycle would kick in. So then he would feel like, oh my God, I'm this terrible, rotten person, I should die. So again, the shame was driving his addiction. So also individuals that feel so badly about themselves, they might engage in eating. They want to keep— I want to eat, I want to eat, I want to eat. And in a way, they want to self-soothe and they want to self-medicate that shame in essence, so they don't feel it. But then the more they eat, the more they want— they create more shame and they create and produce more of shame cycle. So does that make sense at all?

It does. It absolutely makes sense.

Okay.

You know, as you said, that, that hiding from it, and then, you know, it's kind of like once you give in, and it's like, well, I'm just a terrible person anyway. So, you know, I might as well keep doing this, I guess.

Exactly, exactly. And like I said, most of the times, they're not even cognizant that they have the shame because it's so insidious. And then I wanna share something else with you. This is amazing. So I'm on Facebook and social media and it never ever fails. If I ever talk about anything that is shame-provoking or inducing, people don't even respond to my post. But if I talk about something like, oh, my dog, or I got this award, or this is going on, you get all the likes. It's so difficult to address shame shame that it's like, oh my God, no, we don't even go there because it's so painful and insidious and debilitating. Yeah.

Well, it's funny as you said that because I'm, I'm on social media and, you know, doing my business and stuff and putting things out there. And I was telling my wife the other day, I could post a picture of my dog and I get all these likes.

Yeah.

But I provoke— I post something that I hope things is really going to like reach people at a deep level And crickets.

You got it. You got it. That is because of the shame. That's a perfect example of shame. I, you know, what will people think about me? I don't want people to know I'm grappling with anxiety, depression, or I'm dealing with grief, or I'm dealing with whatever, whatever it may be. And there it is. That's a perfect example of shame and what we're talking about here. Yeah.

So we've talked about the— we can identify what shame is now, and you said that we can get the book and we can figure out what level shame may be playing in our, in our lives. What are some of the antidotes to shame? How do we, how do we start to overcome this, both individually and as a society?

Okay, so first and foremost, we want to lean into shame, because not only does shame have something to teach us, it has something to tell us. And ironically, the fact that it keeps surfacing— again, it's not a symptom of what is wrong with you. It's a messenger. It's a signal. It's saying, I want to be healed. Look at me, look at me, look at me. But because it's so painful, people want to continue to suppress it, repress it, and keep it down. So one of the best antidotes or solutions to conquering shame, believe it or not, is what you and I are doing today, Brian talking about it. Because when you talk about it, it puts the spotlight on it and it releases it and it normalizes it. And that's what people have to realize. It's a normal what? Emotion. But nobody talks about it. So the first step is leaning into the shame, confronting the shame. So for myself individually, what do I do first and foremost when my shame comes a-knocking? And usually I say this to my clients. It's hilarious. Sometimes my shame will visit for breakfast or lunch or dinner or throughout the day. And whenever it comes up, I say, oh, here you are again. So I don't look at it as, oh my God, I hate you, go away, because that only what? Metastasize it, cultivates it even more. But rather I embrace it and I say, okay, here you are. Okay, why are you being triggered right now? Let me just say this to you, Brian D Smith. Although shame and trauma happens in the then, in the there, it can become triggered in the here and the now. So say, for instance, somebody says something to you, whatever, it can become triggered. So if at any point it becomes triggered, I embrace it. And I, you know, I move into acceptance. And I say, okay, you know what, you're having a little shame right now. It's okay. I have compassion. The 4 healing components again: acceptance, compassion, forgiveness, forgiving yourself. Okay, so I was being a little harsh on myself because I had a little bit of a shame attack. It's okay. And then again, there's that self-love. But actual techniques I've developed throughout the years, one of them I refer to as ARM. It's an acronym that stands for to acknowledge, to accept. So in this moment, I'm experiencing shame. Okay, it's fine. R is for recognize. Recognize in my body where in essence the shame might be festering. For me in the past, it was always in my heart. Oh my God, my heart would be, beat really fast and the palms of my hands would sweat. So recognize, recognize how it's affecting me. It's dysregulating my system. It's making me feel out of sorts. Managing would be moving into maybe some deep breathing. Okay, putting my hand on my, my heart and my, my chest here, breathing in and out, managing it that way. Also self-soothing myself, uh, reparenting myself. Positive affirmations. It's okay. So that's ARM. Another technique that I developed, it's called Detect It and Redirect It. So here it is, I'm having a trigger with shame, it's affecting me. Okay, I detect it right in this moment. I'm having this, you know, this shame and okay, it's okay, I detect it. I'm going to redirect it and I'm going to say, okay, thank you, shame. Thank you for visiting me right now. But guess what? I'm gonna put you aside and I'm gonna focus on other things that I need to do here today. So I'm embracing it, I'm detecting it, but I'm not allowing it to, in essence, anchor me down and taking me down that rabbit hole. That's another technique. Journaling. Journaling is a big one. So if I become triggered with my shame, or you or your viewers become triggered with your shame, okay, write it down. Why in essence did I become triggered? What can I do at this moment? Okay, maybe I can go outside and I can go for a walk. I can move into self-soothing techniques. I can do some positive reframing here. Okay, so in essence, although and when the shame strikes, it's not becoming victimized by it and being banked, anchored down, but rather exercising agency and saying, okay, it's just an emotion. It's not a mental illness. I'm not having a breakdown. I'm not crazy. It's okay. It's the meaning that I attach to the shame. I can allow shame to make me or break me. And ultimately, that is my choice, my decision to make. Um, other healing modalities for shame, like yoga, relaxation, focusing on trying to, you know, regulate the, you know, the body after it's been dysregulated from a shame cycle. So hope that answers your question.

It does. And as you're saying that, I was thinking, does it— is it helpful to know where to start to identify where the shame came from? Because I know for me, it was, it was very revealing when I was talking to my therapist, and I'm having all these issues, and she starts bringing up my childhood. And I'm like, Why are we talking about this? I'm having a problem now. Why are we talking about when I was 5 years old? But this is 30 years even after that. And I realized it was really helpful for me to identify where that came from.

Yeah. So I'd like to speak to that. So similar to trauma, shame gets stored, trapped, and frozen within the body. Mm-hmm. So what can happen, let's say, like, I don't know about you, Brian D Smith, but in retrospect, there were certain pivotal moments in my life where my shame became like, how do I want to say it? It became more like frozen or trapped. There were specific examples. And let me give you one. I'll never forget. I was a little girl. I was on the school bus. And my father here's some shame. He was an alcoholic. And every day, it never failed. I'd be like, oh, when I got on the school bus, oh gosh, is Dad going to be on the front steps with a beer drinking? I would be mortified and humiliated. So I'll never forget one day I was on the school bus, I was getting up and I could feel it. I could feel the shame and I couldn't identify it back then. And I was walking down what I refer to as the aisle of shame. On the school bus. And all of a sudden, this kid's sitting— oh, it still hurts. He's like, oh, look at her father. And at that moment, wow, pivotal moment with my shame. It became frozen, trapped, and internalized. And then ever since then, whenever, like alcohol or whatever, boom, there's the shame. And it can become what? Triggered, reactivated, and resurfaced. And I don't know if you have certain, you know, stories or examples in your life, how your shame became frozen, trapped, and internalized within your, you know, self and your being.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, some of the same types of moments, you know, again, it's interesting, because something will come up, and it'll take you right back to that, even if it's not the specific memory, but right back to that feeling that you had. Yeah, just wanting to disappear, just wanting, just wanting to hide. So yeah, I can definitely relate to that. And I know, again, talking to that, that therapist, you brought some of that stuff up, things that I thought were at the time were just like, okay, they were, they were normal. And, you know, it's interesting because, again, I don't mean to bash religion, but because it is the culture. But I was talking with something the other day that was, came from the same type of background as I did, and he mentioned like some of the things that triggered us And I said, the music that I used to listen to. And he said, well, give me an example. And I saw— I gave him an example, this group I used to love, this, this— it's a Christian group. And this morning I was— I take a 6-mile walk every morning, so I just put the music on just because I, I used to love this group. And I was listening to it and I realized how full of shame this music was about how I'm a terrible person, about how, you know, thank you for saving me and and I'm a wretch and, you know, I'm only— and I was like, and I listened to about 20 or 30 minutes of it and I was like, okay, that's enough. I just, I just wanted to remember why it was I walked away from that. And I was like, wow, I can't believe I used to do this to myself.

Absolutely. And unbeknownst to you, you were, guess what, propagating that shame and you didn't even realize it.

Right? Right.

And it's just— this is what I'm saying. And I'm so glad that you said that, Brian D Smith, just to demonstrate the insidiousness of shame and how it can just keep metastasizing. And just, it's like a cancer. It'll eat you away until it will, it will kill you. Trust me, some people that move into suicidal ideation, again, unbeknownst to them, shame is driving that behavior.

Of course. Yeah.

Yeah.

So let's talk about the relationship between shame and guilt. We've heard of guilt, you know, how do, how are the two related?

Well, it's so funny because first of all, shame and guilt both can have an adverse effect on the individual, making them feel like, oh, I'm bad, I did something wrong. But the distinction between guilt and shame is this: guilt is I did something wrong, may it have been, oh, I cheated on a test, or I lied, or I had premarital sex, or— okay, that's guilt. Shame is, I am defective, I am bad, I'm fundamentally flawed, there's something wrong with me, I'm defective. And that's the vast distinction. And guilt is easier, in essence, to process, because it's not as shame-induced, whereas shame, because the individual feels so defective and helpless, um, it's that much more painful. So the distinction is guilt is that you do something bad or wrong. Shame is that you are defective, you are problemed, you are less than, you are unworthy, you are pathetic. That's how I would differentiate the two.

Yeah, I think it's really great, a great way of putting it. Um, I think So thanks for sharing that. So let's talk about shame and grief. Because, you know, my show is Grief to Growth, and a lot of people that are listening here that are, that are going through grief. I know you've done some work on the relationship between shame and grief.

Absolutely. So first and foremost, shame being as insidious as it is, it blocks and prevents the grieving process. And I'll explain exactly what I mean by this. So it will prevent an individual from being able to fully embrace the grieving process. So again, I will draw again from my father. So to demonstrate how it affects the grief and the grieving process. So I went to a meeting, and it was in Syracuse, and it was for grieving, and my father had died a couple of months prior. And of course, everybody was talking, you know, and they were sharing in the group. And somehow, I didn't feel worthy to talk. And the reason why I didn't feel worthy to talk about my dad was because he had issues, he was grappling with issues with addiction and mental health issues. And because of the fact that I felt such shame, I didn't feel worthy to share my experiences of grief with the other people. So in essence, I shut off, I shut down. And then the worst part about it was I didn't go back to the meetings. I started isolating, and I felt like, oh my God, if I go back there, they're gonna just think, oh, I'm so strange because I'm not talking. So in essence, shame creates a barrier and prevents healthy grieving from taking place.

Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And if I could just add, in my experience, when I'm dealing with people that are grieving, one of the things I always look for— I haven't used the word shame before, which I might start now, but, you know, guilt, because a lot of people feel guilty for various reasons. It's just weird how, yeah, whenever people go through like really serious grief or loss of someone really close, it almost seems to be always almost accompanied by some sort of guilt that we put on ourselves.

Absolutely.

And then you feel like you're not worthy of healing. So it's like, I don't even— I don't even deserve to feel better.

Exactly, exactly. And in that space and place, you can see it has an anchoring effect once again, and it's going to cause the individual to be stuck at that impasse. You know, the stages of grief: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. So they can keep oscillating. But the eventual goal for grief— and of course, everybody grieves differently— but is to somehow process it to a certain degree where one is going to be able to, what, function. But if you're stagnating in guilt and shame, it's going to cause the individual to be stuck at that impasse, and just spinning their wheels round and round and round. So guilt and shame as it pertains to grief is very powerful and needs to be examined as well. So to allow the individual to keep navigating through it, processing through the grief to get to the other side.

Yeah, I completely agree. So why is, you know, as we're having this conversation, I imagine people go, okay, well, I hear this, but I can just power through this. Why is it important for people to have a structured approach to, to addressing this?

Okay, that is such a good question. Because of the severity of shame, it's not something that you can just say, oh yes, I have shame, and life is good. Let's go on. No, it requires deep introspection and processing work. And if that's not dealt with, the shame cannot be processed, so to speak, and the individual will remain at that impasse. And Brian D Smith, this might be a very good place, if you don't mind, to segue into the developmental and recovery stages that I've developed.

Yeah, absolutely.

Okay. So first and foremost, I decided after I was grappling with shame, which clearly felt like my entire life, and I started realizing the degree in which my clients were dealing with it as well, I developed the developmental and recovery stages of shame. And it was really strange how it happened. But that's a different story. But at any rate, there's actually 7 stages of shame. The first stage is victimization. So at this particular stage, the child or the individual is oblivious to the effects of shame. Okay, so shame can come in the form of— terms of abuse, like we just discussed, but it can also come in form of Um, so abuse, it can come in the form of verbal abuse, sexual abuse, spiritual abuse, um, and it can kind of— victimization can take place there. So then what happens is the child or the individual is totally unaware, so they're unconscious of the fact that they're experiencing what's referred to shame-based victimization. So again, they're need— they're helpless, they're needy, they can't differentiate between healthy interactions versus adverse interactions or exchanges. So Stage 1 is victimization. Stage 2 is saturation. So at this stage, the child or individual is experiencing more prolonged, chronic shame-based victimization to the point where they're becoming saturated. So a child is very porous, and they're just taking these things in, these negative harsh words from the parents or their caregivers or different forms of abuse. So at this stage, what then is happening is the shame through the falsehoods— you're bad, you're unlovable, you're defective— it's becoming solidified and infiltrated in the mind. So that's Stage 2. Stage 3 is indoctrination. So after ongoing shame-based victimization and shame-based saturation, The individual now believes the falsehoods about themselves, like for instance, yes, I am defective, I am unlovable, I am unworthy. At this particular stage, the individual will then disown the authentic self, and they will move into what's referred to as the imposter or false self. Now, the false self wears all different types of masks. There would be the superachiever, the clown, the superstar, um, perfect, okay? And they're doing this in essence as a means to receive and accept approval and love and validation. So that's stage 3. Stage 4 is immobilization. At this particular stage, the the authentic self is completely immobilized. It's repressed. It is blocked. The individual is now operating completely out of maladaptive coping mechanisms. That would be your addiction. That would be your anxiety. That would be your depression. That would be your codependency, your imposter syndrome. It is also at this stage where the individual will experience burnout, breakdowns, suicidal ideation. At this stage, the imposter self is completely internalized. It is habituated. It becomes an inherent part of the individual's identity. Stage 5 is Restoration. At this particular stage, the individual— there's a returning to the self. So at this stage, the individual is becoming a little bit cognizant of the presence of shame in his and her life. They might be able to talk about it at a group a little bit, or with their therapist. Now, this stage is so, so very, very important. Because if this stage is not resolved, the individual might be stuck in a perpetual, what's referred to as shame, negativity feedback loop and never get out of it and be able to embrace their authentic self. Typically when you see some individuals, let's say, that are dying of drug overdose, suicide, unbeknownst to them, shame is at the base driving that behavior. So it is very, very crucial to get to the place where you're cognizant of shame and being able to identify and knowing that it's driving one's behavior. Because if that doesn't happen, the individual will go on perhaps for the rest of their life, never resolving shame or being set free from this abhor— adverse emotion. So that's Stage 5. Stage 6 is transformation. At this particular stage, a metamorphosis has taken place. Not only is the individual cognizant of the presence of shame, but they're able to utilize tools and techniques to mitigate it and to keep it at bay and also to neutralize it. They're also able to move themself out of dysregulation, and they're able co-regulate. So in essence, they're able to re-parent themselves. They're able to self-soothe, utilize the 4 healing components, and in essence, re-parent themselves and become their own therapist. So like when I work with my clients, I draw from a psychoeducational paradigm because I always wanna be able to teach them things so they're able to utilize these skills, tools, and techniques on their own. So that's Stage 6. Stage 7 is my favorite stage, and that's Liberation. At this particular stage, the individual is no longer encumbered by a push-pull mentality of shame. They're able to neutralize shame, keep it at bay, they're able to embrace their authentic self once again, and the pseudo or imposter self is now dead. They're able to fully become all that they're meant to be and become the best possible version of themselves. And that, in essence, is where I'm at in my journey. I might at times become reactivated or triggered weird temporarily, but I'm clearly operating out of a stage of liberation.

Wow, that, that's really interesting. That's— it sounds to me like that's the arc of a human life. Yeah. No, it's like, I think we all go through it. And that's— and we— you mentioned earlier about normalizing it. Yeah, I think we're all carrying this to some degree. I think it's part of— it's just part of the human condition. Um, I don't— you know, I was talking to someone the other day, and they were like talking about society, what society had done to them. And it's— I don't blame— I don't blame them. So you can't blame your parents, you don't blame your teachers, you don't blame even society. It's not something that's done intentionally. It's— but we're all— we're all damaged, we're all, uh, broken in some sense, and we pass that brokenness on to the people that come into this world.

Exactly. Shame is multi-generational. And, and Brian, I love what you said. That idea notion that we're all broken, that's a universal commonality. That's nothing to be ashamed of. I often say to myself when I am working with clients, here it is, here it is. Life is a classroom and we all have lessons to learn. And that's what this life is all about. So do we have problems? Do we have shortcomings? Do we have deficiency? Do we have problems? Do we have anxiety, depression, all of the above? Yes, yes, yes, yes. It's called the human condition. And if you don't experience those things, guess what? You're not normal. Yeah, we need to normalize it all. And that's the fundamental problem. We're told that, oh, we have to portray certain images. And again, that's all learned behavior. But that was from people that didn't learn how to unlearn their shame, their guilt, their fear, their anxiety, their depression, yada, yada, yada.

Yeah. One thing I do want to make clear, in case I— what I said wasn't clear to people that are listening, when I say we're all broken, it's not like what I was taught as a kid, that we all come in broken, that we're inherently broken. We're broken by our society and stuff.

Exactly.

I think we come in whole.

Yes, Brian. Yes.

Yeah.

Yes. We are perfect specimens. I'm so glad you said this. I believe, and again, I know I know everybody has different religious beliefs, so on and so forth, and I don't want to impose any way, shape, or form my religious beliefs or convictions, but I believe we are all extensions of God. And when we enter this earth, we are perfect. We are perfect regardless of our sexuality, our color, our race, our sexuality. And then all of a sudden, society comes along and what? Power differential. And you got to do this, and you got to become this, and you— no. No, then all of a sudden, we move out of that beautiful, authentic self into the pseudo-self. And there's where the problems begin. So I'm so glad you brought that up, Brian, because that's extremely important to emphasize.

And I want to be respectful of people's religions and stuff.

Absolutely.

You know, and that's, and that's fine. I, but I'm also, I'm really, I was telling someone yesterday where I was in this group, we meet on Sunday mornings, I said, I'm not interested in religion, I'm not interested in philosophy, I'm interested in truth. And I want to help people, you know, get to the truth. And I think what you and I are talking about, I say to people, try it on, see what makes sense to you, right? Does it make more sense to you believe that you're inherently evil and you're inherently broken, or does it make sense to believe that you are, you're perfect as you are, and that we have— you've been kind of like, uh, we, we live with people who are unskilled, you know? And I like— they're not evil, they're not bad, they're not doing purpose. No, just not very skilled.

Right. And I often say to that, and I love that, you know, that it's not about pointing a finger. I'm not about that. But here's reality. Some people are unhealthy, unhealed, and unwell. That's reality. They have some work to do. But it's not about pointing a finger. And, you know, you did this. No, it's not about that. It's about being cognizant of what's going on. And being true to that. And I love what you said, this idea of you know, to know the truth, truth is going to set you free. So these things happen to me, but guess what? Doesn't define me. I can turn these things around. And I can want to create a new story for my life.

Yeah, I think it's, it's, it's something that's, it's very empowering. At least it is for me to know that I didn't do anything wrong. You know, this is, this is not my fault. Again, I don't blame my my parents, I don't blame my teachers, I don't even blame the society around us. I think it's part of, it's part of the human experience. And I think we're, I think we're meant to go this journey. We're getting to get really metaphysical. I think we're meant to rediscover who we are. Absolutely. And you have a right to, to live your authentic self. And I love fiction, I love movies and stuff. One of my favorite movies is the movie The Wall by Pink Floyd, you know, about this young man that goes on this journey and his mother and society is putting all this stuff into him, all all the fear and everything.

Yeah.

Until finally he totally breaks. He totally forms a whole new character.

Yeah.

And he— and, and the whole thing is like, finally has to tear down the wall. He has to take off all the masks and become who he truly is. And I think that's the human journey. And I hope that people are listening can relate to this. It's like, you don't have to live that way. You don't have to live as an inauthentic person.

That's right. That was never the intention or plan for your journey.

Right?

No. And you don't have to live other people's shame being projected upon you. Okay? That was theirs. And unfortunately, some of them don't do their work. And that's what happens, you know, and very quickly on a societal level, some of the things that we see that are playing out has very much to do with individuals that have not done their work. And at a macro level, we're seeing it play out. We're seeing that. And in that, it's about, okay, applying that acceptance, the compassion, forgiveness, and love for these people, because we know how troubled and sick that they are.

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Well, we're coming to the end of our time. Um, we've talked about your, your book, so remind people about your book and remind people where they can reach you and the services that you offer.

Absolutely. So right now I have 3 books available on Amazon: Therapy Land: Rethinking Anxiety and Depression, Two Important Messengers and Conquering Shame: Surviving to Thriving. I also, I am in private practice. I also am on social media. I do workshops, and if you go to my website, www.monicashealth.com, there are links. Feel free to view you know, my podcast that I've done previously, my up and coming— I do workshops and YouTube stuff online, so you can visit me there. And also, if you want to reach out to me, you have any questions or concerns or, you know, want to do one-on-one, I am available. And I love what I do. So, you know, I hope that this interview was insightful and gave you some tools and techniques and a better way to understand shame and to be able to help yourself on your own journey in conquering shame.

Yeah, Monica, I, I appreciate what you do. I love what you do. Also, uh, thank you for being here today. Thank you for being so vulnerable and normalizing this for people. I think this is, this is the kind of conversations that are needed for people to break free. So appreciate you.

You are so welcome, and it was a delight being here with you, Brian. And I appreciate your integrity and truth and your stories and this opportunity. It's just been wonderful, and I thank you so much. And thank you to your wonderful viewers for, um, being a part of this as well. Thank you so much.

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