David Hayward- The Naked Pastor

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Hi there, welcome to Grief to Growth Podcast. Your host is Brian D Smith, spiritual seeker, bestselling author, grief survivor, and life coach. Brian believes that the worst tragedies of life provide the greatest opportunity for growth. Brian D Smith says he was planted, not buried, and he is here to help you grow where you've been planted by the difficulties in life. In each episode, Brian and his guests will share what has helped them to survive and thrive. It is his sincere hope this episode helps you today.

Hey everybody, this is Brian D Smith, back with another episode of Grief to Growth. And I'm really excited today to have this guest with me. His name is David Hayward. I'm going to read his bio, then I'll introduce him. He was ordained to the ministry in 1987, and he left in 2010. He's been running the Naked Pastor blog since 2005, where he posts provocative cartoons and articles. He launched an online community called The Lasting Supper, a place for people to change without being judged or instructed, and where they can learn to be more spiritually independent. He's been cartooning, making art, writing, speaking, and coaching around his core passions personal authentic freedom, the power to change our own lives and the creative spirit to make our world a better place. David and his wife live in Eastern Canada, and they have 3 adult children. And the reason why I asked David to be here with me today, I've been a fan of David's for a long time, been following his work. And I wanted to let you know more about him. And I want to learn more about it myself. So with that, I'd like to bring in David Heyward.

Hey, how are you? Good to be here, Brian. Thanks for having me on your show. And hello, everybody.

Yeah, it's— and I am so excited to have you here, David. Uh, I, I don't even know how I found your work. I don't know if it was on Facebook or, or where, but I've been following your work for quite a while. So for people that don't know, tell people what it is you do.

Okay, well, um, my, my work has the, uh, tendency to get shared a lot. Like, so I, I have my, my cartoons that I'm drawing, but like, like I said, I, I've, uh like you said, I, I left the ministry in 2010, but I started blogging in 2005, uh, with Naked Pastor. And it was, I think it was 2006 when I decided maybe try cartooning as a way to convey my thoughts and, um, ideas, feelings, whatever. And that's when Naked Pastor started getting shared and noticed and everything, um, and getting me in trouble. And, uh So it just started just growing and growing and growing, and people loving my cartoons and, uh, you know, um, my posts. And, you know, I'm also an artist and things, so, uh, yeah, that's what I do basically. I, uh, every day I, I try to draw a new cartoon, I try to write posts, I try to do videos, uh, paintings. I've got books out. I do have the online community called The Lasting Supper for people who are questioning their beliefs and want a safe place to do that. And yeah, so that, that keeps me very, very busy. I do that full time.

Yeah. So tell me about your spiritual journey. I'm curious, before you got into the ministry, when you're in the ministry, stuff like that.

Well, I grew up in a, I would say, a nominally Christian home. Like, I grew up in a Christian home. I was baptized Anglican., as a baby, and then we moved around a lot, so I never— we never went to any one certain denomination church. We just went to whatever was convenient. So I actually grew up not feeling, uh, like I was anything, you know, like Baptist or Anglican or Catholic or whatever. Uh, we just went to the nearest, most convenient church that we liked. And as a result, um, I've experienced a lot of different, uh, expressions of Christianity and church. And, uh, it was when I was a teenager I got like born again, you could say, in a Baptist church, of course. And, um, then from there we went to Pentecostal, and I went to a Pentecostal Bible college. I went to seminary, ended up met my wife Lisa, um, went into the ministry, uh, and I was ordained Presbyterian actually, and, uh, ended up in the Vineyard movement. And that's— it was then, uh, in 2010 when I, I left the ministry. So my, my spiritual journey— I call myself my own ecumenical movement because I've been in so many different, you know, denominations and churches and so on. Even independent. So, uh, it— my spiritual journey in a nutshell has been very diverse, um, and nourished by all different kinds of traditions and spiritualities and so on, denominations, theologies. And, uh, and it was in 2009 when I had this sort of epiphany moment where I just saw Uh, it was, it was like a flash of insight where I just saw the oneness of all things and the interconnectivity and how we were all on a deep and fundamental level connected and united. And, um, I started sharing my insights in my blog, and that was when— that was 2009, and, uh, that started raising eyebrows and getting attention. It was in 2010 when I finally left the ministry because, uh, it was decided that mutually that we were no longer theologically compatible, that I, I was feeling grow— I was growing in a certain direction that the church no longer comfortable with.

Yeah. So were you a pastor at that time?

Yeah.

And which church?

A Vineyard Church.

I was a Vineyard Church. Okay. Okay.

So for those who don't know what a Vineyard Church is, a Vineyard Church is sort of an evangelical in theology but charismatic in expression. It was very kind of laid back, contemporary music, you know, um, and, uh, but with evangelical theology. Yeah.

Yeah, I attended a Vineyard Church for a long time, and it's an interesting denomination. Yeah, here in Cincinnati. Yeah, very, very interesting denominations. You said that the casual music and the laid-back atmosphere gives you one impression, but then the underlying theology is completely different.

That's really true. That's a good observation, actually, where it's this sort of— yeah, it comes across as very laid-back and very cool and very open and everything, and Underneath, though, is a theology that can be quite shaming, condemning, exclusive, you know, and so on. So non-affirming, etc. So there's churches around me right now that are just like that. And I— it's sort of like lining the trap with honey. That's my opinion. And it's, it's a, it's a pretty cool trick, though. It works.

Yeah, because what really attracted me to the church, I was living in Lexington, Kentucky, which is about 100 miles from here. And I had a friend that was going to this church in Cincinnati, I was going to move here. And he told me about this church. I'm like, it sounds really cool. They had the servant evangelism, where they would go on the street corner and hand out free Cokes. And they do free car washes, and they wouldn't ask for any donations. It was literally free. And it was really cool to see people freak out about, you know, how loving and open this church was.

Yeah. But then you'd get there and realize there were certain rules and expectations and ideologies and so on that weren't so cool. There's a— there's a church here that it's the biggest church in the whole area and very popular, and people just love it. But it's, uh, it's, it's, it's just like as you describe, it's, it's got all the bells and whistles, you know, it's got all the smoke and mirrors and, you know, uh, dry ice and lights and music and equipment and staff and everything, but, um, it's, it's, uh, very, very strict in its theology and, and, um, polity, church polity.

Yeah, I, I've experienced the same thing, and there are a couple here, and it's, it's really interesting to me how successful— I'll put in air quotes— those churches are because they just draw people in.

Yeah.

Um, so that was your experience as well? It's interesting to, to note that.

Yeah, it's kind of like the Hillsong kind of phenomenon that's happening in the world right now that just really gathers a lot of people. It really comes across as very cool and loving and accepting and so on. But when you get inside the machine, if you have any self-awareness at all, then it eventually dawns on you that there are you know, there's things happening behind the curtain that you might not like.

Yeah, for me, it took a while. It took a few years, actually. But I became, I became friends with a lot of the staff. And I was, I was friends with one of the, one of the, and they have huge staffs, of course, friends with one of the pastors, friends with one of the guys on the board. And I remember when I discovered universalism, you know, Christian universalism, I was so excited about it. And, you know, I started emailing some of these guys to say, you know, and there was a rumor, and I won't out him, but there was a rumor that one of the pastors was a Universalist, you know, a closeted Universalist. But when I would email him, he was very careful about the way he would respond to the emails. Just very cautious.

Yeah. I mean, you know, I, I was fortunate in that, and it's, I think it's because I grew up not feeling any loyalty to any one denomination. So one of the big things that was absent from my vocation as a pastor was the anxiety that I had to somehow continue making myself eligible to belong. To whatever denomination. And so I, I always felt very free. And so I, you know, people saying you were Pentecostal, you were Baptist and you went Pentecostal, then you were Pentecostal, you went Presbyterian, then you were Presbyterian, you went Vineyard— like, it didn't matter. I didn't care. It didn't matter. It didn't matter to me. And it, for me, it wasn't a huge leap. And I always tended to find myself gravitating towards congregations that were quite open and and accepting of me and that we, we could journey together and, and so on. So, um, you know, that like the last church I was in, the Vineyard Church, I just felt, uh, like I didn't have to hide anything. I didn't feel like I was lying or pretending or imposter syndrome, you know, standing in front of the people believing one thing and teaching another. I never felt that kind of tension. And, uh, fortunately, until 2009 when I had that sort of flash of insight about the oneness of all things, and I started naively sharing this exciting, you know, idea. And, um, I realized that I crossed a line I didn't know was there.

Yeah. So I'm curious about your flash. How did that come about?

Uh, I don't know. I, you know, it wasn't mushrooms or acid. Yeah, I often get asked, that sounds like you had a mushroom trip or whatever, but no, it was completely, you know, clean. Um, I— and nothing against, you know, people who might want to experiment with those things, but, uh, um, I, I, uh, was always a very, very intense sort of searcher, and so I was constantly digging in theology because I, I, I, I saw these parts kind of like a 1,000-piece puzzle, and I couldn't figure out how to fit all the parts together. So for example, I'll just give one example where there's a loving God who loves the whole world and, you know, etc. But then you have the exclusivity of most Christian theology where you have to believe in Jesus and you have to say this and that and behave this way and, and so on, be a part of the church. And I couldn't put all this together where if the whole world is being reconciled and everyone is included in that and all things are subsumed in that huge movement, then how does this work? How does this, you know, how do these join together, the exclusivity of Christianity and the universality of the good news, let's say, right? And, and, and so I couldn't fit these two pieces together. And then, you know, you add to that the traditional, um, view of scripture on, say, LGBTQ, uh, and then me having LGBTQ friends who are better people than I am, you know, and so on. So I couldn't reconcile— I had all these pieces in front of me and I couldn't reconcile them. And I spent years and years, decades actually trying to figure out how to put this puzzle together. And then in— it was in 2009, it was just— I think I lied down for a nap. It was just that stupid. And, you know, I just had this, like, I just saw this, uh, waterfall. And I won't go into explaining the whole— all the details, but essentially I just saw that we are— there's one reality that we all experience, but we apprehend it through our own paradigms and through our own lenses, our own worldviews. And then we have our own languages to attempt to articulate what we think we experience. But there's just one reality. However, there's a million words.

Yeah.

And a million paradigms, uh, attempting to describe this one reality and apprehend it and articulate it. So that to me was like, wow, it was mind-blowing. And I immediately felt this peace of mind descend on me. My theological angst evaporated, never came back. And, um, it was just beautiful. So I, I wanted other people to feel the same kind of peace of mind. Naively not realizing that I was stepping on all kinds of toes.

So, you know, I'm glad you shared that. And I'm always curious about that process that, you know, it was as you were describing the thought that came to mind was born again. You know, it's like, it's, it's like that freeing thing that, that your mind opening up. And I don't know if you're familiar with Carlton Pearson. But he's a, he's a pastor. He was a Pentecostal pastor. I followed him for a long time. I still think he's—

Oh, yes.

And he had an experience. He was watching television, he sees these kids, you know, in Africa, they're starving to death. And he prays and he says, you know, God, how could you let those children starve, those babies starve to death and then send them to hell? And he has this, you know, like this download from God, like, what makes you think I'm sending them to hell? So he discovers Christian Universalism, right? Shortening a very long story, you know, they basically kick him out of his church.

Yeah, I saw the documentary.

Okay. Okay.

Yeah, it was great. Great. Yeah.

So, you know, I, and I, as I, as I look at your cartoons, and I resonate with them so much, I'm like, I'm thinking, he must have been through what I went through. And I was raised as a Pentecostal. I was raised with some pretty serious spiritual abuse from the time I was a small child. So what, what spiritual abuse have you, have you witnessed? Because you, you understand it so well.

Yeah, I do, because, uh, um, there, there's the systemic, uh, issues, uh, that come with your church. In my opinion, it's the perfect culture for abuse to occur because you have all the ingredients. You have often, uh, controlling leaders or pastors, um, and they have good intentions. They want to manage people. And keep them in line, you know. Uh, but you— when you have controlling pastors and you have people who are looking for intense experiences of community, uh, and then you have a theology that tends to convince us that we're guilty and, uh, we need help, and, you know, we're— and if you join us, then we're going to help you kind of thing, we'll fix you. Although— and there's a bunch of others, but you put all those ingredients together and you've got a perfect culture for abuse. To occur. And so we call that in the church, we call that spiritual abuse. And I, like you, spent a lot of time in the Baptist Church and the Pentecostal Church and the Vineyard Church, Presbyterian Church. Even mainline denominations have the same— I, I experience spiritual abuse in mainline denominations and independent denominations. Um, and it's a systemic thing where it just comes with the territory. Um, in fact, it's not just a religious thing. Any any system is prone, in my opinion, towards the dehumanization of its members, you know, right down to the motor vehicle place, the DMV or whatever you call it, or, you know, education or, or the hospitals or the military or whatever. Bureaucracy, its gravitational pull is towards the dehumanization of its members. So I think that's why I feel it's my duty to continually call specifically the church, to live up to its mandate, that it's here to serve us, we're not here to serve it. And, um, so, uh, I, I was in that system as a receiver of abuse, but also as a, you know, one who dished it out, just being a part of the system.

Sure.

And, and, um, it, it began to dawn on me many, many years ago, uh, when I was in the ministry, that this system is prone to abuse, and, and that I need to start, you know, um, changing my ideas about what community is and what are my expectations on people and what about that, you know, and, and everything. And, and so I perpetuated the system up, up to that point, uh, and the abuse that could occur. But I was also under leadership as well as a pastor. Um, I, um, have served under, uh, spiritual leaders and experienced unbelievable spiritual abuse, me and my family. Uh, people, when I share some of my stories, people just can't believe it happened, but it does. It really does happen. And so I've, um, I, I read a book many years ago, um, and this is one of the things, one of the ingredients that started me on my journey out of trying to resist systemic evil and participating in it., and systemic abuse and, and so on, was, um, The Lucifer Effect by— I want to say Zamboni, but that's not right. Maybe that's right. Anyway, uh, he, uh, he was one of the professors who created that um, prison in— at Stanford University where students were willingly— yeah, were the prisoners, and other students were the jailkeepers and, you know, guards and security and all that kind of thing. And, um, he— and it had to be shut down within days because the students who were acting as the guards became very abusive, and the prisoners— the students acting as the prisoners— were being psychologically tortured and etc. It became a very toxic, unhealthy thing that they had to actually shut it down. And he became an expert in, um, systemic abuse, to the point that he became one of the lawyers, um, involved with the whole Abu Ghraib situation, the prison, and, um, how good upstanding citizens who were soldiers were abusing prisoners in unbelievable ways. That— and it's because of the systemic pull towards the dehumanization of its members. And, and that's when I saw, you know, I could be unknowingly, um, naively participating in the abuse of, of the church's members. And it—

I—

that's when I started pulling away from participating in the, in the system and trying to figure out ways to— that we could be a healthy community where I'm free without violating your freedom and where you're free without violating my freedom. And, and so that to me what became a new challenge that sent me on a road to towards trying to figure out how to be, um, how to build healthy communities. Yeah, that's one of those long answers. You said it was okay to—

Yeah, it's perfect. It's perfect. So I do want to— I do— I wanted to actually go in a little bit more because you said that when you tell people your stories of abuse, they don't believe them. So would you mind sharing one of them?

Stay with us, we'll be right back.

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I hope to see you there.

Um, well, I've had pastors who, uh, um, because, um, I, I had one pastor I served under who, um, uh, he— we were in conflict. We became where we were in conflict. And he requested a meeting with me, and, um, I was very nervous, uh, I— because I hate confrontation, I hate conflict. And, um, he said, what's your problem with me? And I'm like, well, I find you very— I find you very controlling. And that's, by the way, that's the last thing you should say to a controlling pastor.

Yeah, yeah.

And he actually drove his finger into my chest.

I suppose that he wasn't controlling.

And he said, you need psychological help, and went on about demon possession and, you know, you name it. That, that's just sort of a snapshot of the kind of, um, the, the nature of his leadership and, and the culture around that. So, you know, that kind of behavior is very intimidating. Well, to me it is. It's very intimidating. It's shaming, it's silencing, it's fear-mongering. It's all those things that make you either have to run or, um, bow down and worship. You know, those are the two extreme choices that you have. There's no way you can navigate that with integrity and, you know, um, do the dance of leadership versus following. It just, it just doesn't work. You either have to run or, uh, bow down. And so I, I chose to run. There were other situations where I served under spiritual leadership where I was, um, I was fired and removed from my home, um, and my kids and my wife and I basically left in very dangerous situations and, um, very very vulnerable situations. And, um, they didn't— they don't care. They just did not care. Um, and, um, so— and I have more stories like that. I could go into more detail, but maybe I shouldn't.

Well, I appreciate you sharing just the flavor of that. You know, the thing you said, something really, really important about, like, this is the nature of bureaucracies, this is the nature of hierarchical systems in general. It's not the churches are full of bad people. These are, these are good people with good intentions. But it's amped up to another level when it's God says, like the other day, someone was commenting on one of my YouTube videos. And they said, you know, your problem is not with me, your problem is with God and God's Word. Well, there's no way to really come back against that, right? It's like, now you're arguing with God, you're not arguing with me.

Yeah, no, I mean, uh, I'm, I'm in the process of drawing another cartoon where somebody challenges the pastor and says, I found your sermon really kind of bullying. And, uh, you know, and, and the pastor says, actually, that's God disciplining, disciplining you as his son. It wasn't me, right? And that's always the, the tactic that they take. Anytime it's good, it's, it's, you know, they take the praise, but if it's bad, it's God. You know, punishing you or whatever.

Yeah, you know, if you know, this isn't about me, but we were talking earlier about the vineyard. And we talked about these— you were talking about the puzzle pieces. And I got— I had the same feeling, you know, it's like, there's all these pieces of the puzzle, but the fact is, some of them just don't fit. So this idea that a God's going to send people to hell, or God has created people for destruction, if you believe in Calvinism, those pieces just don't fit into the puzzle. And so for someone like ourselves that's trying to put this together, at some point you have to say these just don't work.

Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of like, you know, my, my spiritual journey involved me moving from church to church to church. I pastored several churches, I planted a couple churches, which means I started a couple churches from scratch. And, um, you know, uh, I kept finding a box that was big enough for me, or, you know, I felt, you know, I had room. And the last church I was at, I realized, hey, there is no box, you know. And, and, and it's, it's basically the same with the, the puzzle pieces. It's like, you know what, there's no puzzle. You know, they— the— it just— the integration of, of all the things, right? Um, it's, it's a mystery, but the anxiety of trying to figure it out and making things fit is totally gone. Uh, because, uh, yeah, it's just, uh, that peace of mind isn't because I know the answer. The peace of mind is because I'm okay not knowing the answer now.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That, that anxiety that you have with your— when you're in the church, and you're disagreeing with the church, because we're all human beings, we can't, but we can't believe everything they tell us to believe.

Right?

They tell you there's something wrong with you.

Right?

Because you won't accept what they're trying to tell you.

Right? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And, and that's always the tension is, um, like, I talk a lot about spiritual independence, and for a lot of people, their, their journey in their own spiritual growth takes them to a point where they realize that they are going to put themselves in conflict with, um, their church or whatever. And I compare it to, I compare it to just your personal growth. We're, we're pretty good as children, um, and preteen. Things are pretty good. When we get to be teenagers and moving on towards young adult, adolescence or whatever, young adult, we start realizing, um, we, we need to start working for our own freedom and autonomy, self-determination, independence. And this is going to run us into conflict with our parents with our teachers, you know, with our bosses, whatever. But this is natural. Everybody knows, oh, he's just a teen, you know, or, you know, they're just rebelling and all that kind of thing. But it's a necessary part of our growth to figure out how to be independent, how to, how to develop our own unique personalities separate from our parents and, and so on and so forth. And the same thing has to happen spiritually where we get to this point where we realize if we want to continue growing, it means we're going to come into conflict, conflict with the status quo, with the general beliefs, with the spiritual authorities. Um, but unfortunately, a lot of churches, like many parents, won't stand for this rebellion. And unfortunately, um, many churches, like parents, lose connection with their people or with their kids. And I assert that if churches, like good parents, would say, okay, this is a stage, you need to figure out how to be yourself, how to think your own thoughts, how to have your own feelings, how to, uh, plan your own life, how to take care of yourself we're going to provide a safe space for you to figure that out, and we're here for you. And if churches could do that, I think we would see less of a huge migration away from the church that we're seeing right now.

Yeah, I— to just push back against that a little bit, the problem is I think churches see themselves as our parents. They don't see us as adults. You know, it's, it's a— it's supposed to be a community, a place we can come to get and grow together, but the the people, it's become this hierarchy where supposedly God through the pastor is telling you, you know, what to do. And so I, the way I look at it now is, I mean, Jesus freed us from all that stuff. Jesus said, don't call any man your father. So I just, I reject that whole notion of the church as my father.

I do too. And I think the church should reject that whole notion of leadership as well. That top-down hierarchical approach to leadership. It's antiquated. It doesn't work. It, it, it, uh, well, it, it crushes the human spirit, um, and it, it won't allow for people to really grow. So I, I'm, I'm with you there. It's, it's It no longer serves and never did. But now we're— I really do believe that it no longer serves people well.

Yeah, it's, you know, it's interesting. I was just watching, watching a video earlier today. There was this guy was talking about how civilizations, humankind has grown, and we have, we've had to grow as humans just as we grow individually.

Right.

So there might have been a time when, when that structure worked. It does. It certainly doesn't work in modern times. It certainly doesn't work now. And I love your, your— what you do for me, and I hope you do for— I think I know you do for a lot of people, is you give us permission to explore, you give us permission to question, and you make us feel like we're not alone when we feel like we're being abused.

I am a— well, thank you for that. I'm glad. I'm glad. That you, you think that, because that's what I try to do. Um, but like, the— what I— it's hard to articulate. I'm not your guru. I know somebody else has said that, but I do not want to be your guru.

Yeah. Or your—

what, what I want to— if, if I play any role in your life at all, what I want to be able to do is for you to feel like you can empower yourself to be your authentic self. And, and so that, to me, I don't even want to say I empower you or I allow you or, you know, anything like that. I want to somehow, if I'm in your presence, to somehow inspire you or encourage you, to empower yourself, be your most authentic self, and, and to figure out how to, how to be spiritual. Because it's like Nelson Mandela, you know, um, I'm the master of my, um, destiny, the captain of my ship, right? Like that. We all be— need to be able to get to that place, and we all need to, when we're around one another, be that kind of encouraging catalyst for each one of us to feel empowered to do that. And so that's what I, I try to do. My online community, The Lasting Supper, um, I learned very quickly, um, that people, especially people who are deconstructing their beliefs, questioning their beliefs, leaving the church and so on, they are not interested for the most part Some are, but for the most part, most people aren't interested in looking for another leader or spiritual guru or whatever. And I learned very quickly that I do not want to play that role in anybody's life anymore.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, it's interesting. I think there are people probably on both sides of that. There are people that's just like, okay, well, this is wrong. Let me find, let me find the next thing. Let me find the next leader. Let me find the next church. And a lot of us do that, right? We shop and shop and shop until we realize there is no there is no perfect church. Right. But what you do for me is, as I said, you, you inspire me, you make me feel not alone.

You—

I'm curious how you got into cartooning, because it's one thing to prepare a sermon, right? And that's, that's a lot of words, a lot of time. But you can put in a couple of— a picture, and a few words, or no words, just these incredibly incredible thoughts that I'll think about for the rest of the day.

That's great. Well, um, I've been an artist all my life. I mean, I grew up with art. My dad was a painter and, and so on, um, on, on the side. And I've always liked a good cartoon, um, you know, like The Far Side, the one-frame things. The Far Side, um, my gold standard for me is The New Yorker. Cartoons. That for me is like the gold standard. So I really am— it was in 2006, there was another cartoonist I was following on Facebook, I guess it was, and he just drew cartoons on the back of business cards. And he tried to do one every day. And I thought, you know, why don't I try it? Just out of the blue, I just thought, why don't I try drawing cartoons, see what happens? And, you know, up to that point I was writing my blog and I'd share a painting once in a while, but I started sharing my cartoons and then, um, I get started getting more traffic. And I thought it would last maybe a couple of weeks, maybe a month. And here it is 17 years later and I'm still drawing cartoons every day. Um, they say a picture's worth a thousand words and in Sometimes my cartoons do achieve that where they say a lot in one little frame. You know, there might be words or not. And I really appreciate the, you know, when I get an image that comes to my mind and I draw it and it reaches out and touches people. That means a lot to me. And I hear from a lot of people every day, you know, that are just so grateful that They feel like they're not crazy, they're not alone, their journey is theirs, you know, own it, celebrate it, and that means a lot to me. So that's why I started cartooning. I started because I am an artist. I love trying to convey stuff through art and I just really get some really positive feedback for it. So, yeah.

So I know you must get a ton of positive feedback. Do you get any pushback from people?

Oh my, yes. Oh yes. Yeah, every day. Yeah. And, you know, it's most of the time it's water off my back, like water off a duck's back. It doesn't affect me. And I know it's more about them than it is about me. Once in a while though, I get a scary one that freaks me out, freaks my wife out a little bit or something. I'm always a little bit surprised that people take the time to be so rude or mean or whatever. That kind of thing doesn't cross my mind where I see something I disagree with that I'm going to take the time to insult the person or scare the person. I don't understand that mentality, but, um, I have empathy for people who don't agree with me. And, you know, maybe I was there one time.

Yeah.

And, uh, you know, um, people have different ways of expressing things. For me, I, I, I feel sorry for people who feel that they have to troll me, you know, or harass me continually. Um, if they do, um, it's 3 strikes you're out. I'll block them. And, uh, if they, if they do a mean comment that's directed at me, sometimes I'll let it stay because sometimes they're kind of funny.

Yeah.

But, um, if, if they're being mean to other people in the community, um, or in that post or whatever, right, a gay person or a trans person or a person of color, or a woman, or whatever, a person, an atheist, whatever, I will often delete the comment.

Yeah, I'm the same way. It's sometimes it can be instructional. So I will leave it and I will address them. And I'll even say, like, right out, I know I'm not going to change your mind. I'm not here to change your mind. But I want to talk to the other people that are, that are witnessing this, the people who are open-minded. And the thing is, you know, you're when we talk about these beliefs, this is a problem that people make. They hold their beliefs as being them. So if, if you attack their beliefs— and again, I put that in air quotes— if you challenge your beliefs, they feel like you're attacking them. It's a personal attack. Yeah. And that's a, that's, that's the sign of a small mind, frankly. People that can't separate their beliefs from themselves. So, and it also shows that they're insecure in their beliefs, because if their beliefs were immutable and, and not subject to challenge, then, you know, they wouldn't have to defend them.

There's another, uh, drive that happens, I think, is a lot of people, um, feel the need to, uh, save people who are following me.

Yes, yes.

They come on and say, everybody flee.

Yes.

Like, I've actually had people come on and say flee this man. Yeah. Or, uh, you know, or say that, hey everybody, this is actually heresy and you got to stop following them and whatever. Um, so there's that need to protect others or save others or, um, you know, warn everybody or, you know, whatever. So that I see a lot of that going on too.

Well, I, I wear the heretic, uh, label with, with as a badge of honor. I actually had a blog for a long time called The Beautiful Heresy. When I just— when I discovered Christian Universalism, I was like, okay, if this is heresy, I'm all in, you know. And I look at it, we're in good company. They called Jesus a heretic. They said, you know, they said Jesus cast out demons, you know, by the devil. So we're in good company.

Heresy just means basically other. You're, you know, you're, you're not believing according to the status quo and you're going against the flow. Early in my adulthood when I was studying theology and all that, I was very nervous about people discovering my heretical ideas or whatever. But it's gotten to the point now where I realize in order to be my authentic self and to really pursue the truth and try to understand it, then that— you're just going to be labeled that. It's, it's going to happen.

Yeah, there's what— a topic I want to talk to you about because I asked you for a list of topics and you put in the word deconstruction. For first, I want to explain to people that don't know, I'd like for you to explain what deconstruction means to you and why you think it's important.

So, um, back in 2008, I was required invited to go to— invited with expectation to go. I was invited to go to a weekend workshop seminar on hermeneutics. And it was in the Vineyard. And there was about, I don't know, there might have been about a dozen of us at this, you know, retreat center. And there was a theologian flown in and the whole— and we were to read a stack of books on hermeneutics, how to interpret the Bible, and they were all anti-deconstruction. So the deconstruction movement is a philosophical movement, began with Derrida in France, a French philosopher, basically where you question everything. You question the text, you question the intent of the author, you you question how it's received, how it's transmitted. Everything is questioned, and that there's no objective truth in the text. There's just so many layers and intentions and motives and, you know, all kinds of things. And the whole point of the weekend was to turn us off or to warn us against deconstruction when it had the exact opposite effect on me because I thought, this is exactly how I'm experiencing my spirituality right now. And so, and, and my approach to the Bible and everything, because I grew up, the Bible was it, like number one. I, I studied Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic and theological French, theological German. I was going to be a Bible scholar, and I started my PhD in biblical studies, and, you know, blah, blah, blah. I was totally in the deep end when it came to the Bible. But, um, I was reading all this, I thought, all my questions about the Bible and everything, the faith, all the— I'm questioning everything. And deconstruction is a perfect word for it, which just basically means instead of construction, building something, you're deconstructing, you're tearing it all down. And that's how I was experiencing my my spiritual journey at that time. I was questioning everything and tearing everything down, not only to the foundations but even the foundation itself. And so I started kind of using that word, and people were saying, you sound like a deconstructionist, and they meant it as an insult, but I took it as a compliment. But that was back in 2008. And, um, I left the ministry 2010 because I was experiencing a lot of loneliness, as happens with people who leave the church. Um, and I saw a lot of other people experiencing the same thing.

Excuse me.

In 2012, I, I launched The Lasting Supper, my online community for people who are deconstructing. And, um, more and more people were using the word and so on and so forth, so to the point now where everybody's using the word deconstruction, right?

Right.

Yeah. And, um, to, to describe the questioning of their beliefs Everything from, you know, did, um, was Jonah swallowed by a great fish, all the way to is there a God, right? So it can be everything, anything. Um, deconstruction is where you basically take apart, yeah, uh, your, your beliefs, or that your beliefs are being eroded somehow for some reason.. And, um, so that's— I use that word deconstruction to describe that traumatic process.

Yeah, yeah, traumatic. You use that word. So did you ever find deconstruction to be scary?

Well, yeah, I mean, excuse me, I got a little thing in my throat. Um, my deconstruction began when I was graduating from seminary. I'd read a— I'd been reading, and here I was graduating with a cum laude with a degree in a master's in New Testament studies. And I was heading for my PhD, and I'd been doing some reading recently though, where I started questioning the inspiration of scripture. Now, I was at an evangelical seminary where the inspiration of scripture was not only taught but assumed. And so the big— the three big I's: infallible, inspired, and Infallible, inspired, and in—

in—

infallible, inspired, and what's the third one? Infallible, inspired, inherent.

Inherent. Yes, yes.

And, um, uh, I, I was actually so shooken up that my wife had to grab me by the shoulder and say, you've got to go to graduation. I had my robe on and everything. And I was freaking out. Because for me, the inspiration of Scripture was the cornerstone of everything. Everything hinged on that, all my beliefs on that, because that's the source of my beliefs. So if the Bible's in question, then everything's in question. So my— that was the beginning of my deconstruction. And I was just maybe 23 years old, 24 years old.

Wow.

And it finally culminated in when I experience peace of mind finally in 2009. How many years is that? That's a long, long time. So my deconstruction was kind of like a glacial melt, that it just gradually— it's like somebody inserted a corrupt code in my computer. Yeah. And it just ate away and corrupted my files. Yeah, yeah. And to the point where— and so It— there was a— like I described it before, it was just like this constant theological angst, an underlying anxiety about what's true and how can all this fit. And, you know, and I, I delved into meditation and Buddhism and Hinduism and quantum physics and philosophy and Judaism. Yeah, I, I was trying— I, I was going everywhere trying to figure out how to all this together. So, um, that— my, my deconstruction was more of this underlying low-grade fever that I experienced all the way through my ministry. Whereas for others, it's like, I don't believe this anymore, I'm done, and that's it. Yeah, that wasn't my— that wasn't my experience.

It's, it's different for everybody. And I want to ask you about being scary, because it was for me. And I think it is for a lot of people, so much to the point where they won't even start. Because I call it like you've built your, your faith on a house of cards. It's like, it's like a house of cards. And if I pull one thing out, they think the whole thing is going to collapse, and I'll have nothing. And that was, that was my fear, you know. Yeah, I try to encourage people and say, you know, every time I've lost something, I've gained something else. When people ask me, like, where I am now, I'm like, my faith is stronger now than it's ever been. It's completely different. It's completely different. But it's— but now it's built on a solid foundation as opposed to this house of cards.

It's interesting. The, uh, fear is weird, uh, but fear is a major factor, um, that controls us. I do remember lying in my bed, um, one night. My wife's a nurse, she was working, and it was— I just quit the ministry, and I was lying there in bed, and I was like, what have I done? What have I done? Like, what if I'm wrong? You know, that, that— and that cold fear descended on me. And on the one hand, it's like, I don't believe any of that anymore, and yet at the same time, I was scared. It's kind of like as an adult You know, I know there's no monsters, but you go down that weird staircase into the basement and, you know, once in a while your stomach flips, right?

Right.

It doesn't make any sense. It's not rational. But, um, I have a lot of people reach out to me and say, what do I do with this fear? Like, I'm afraid. And it's like, you know, eventually it fades, but it's— it might echo once in a while, but it just— it'll fade to a whisper and then finally to a faint echo, and then finally just an occasional echo. But, you know, it's just— fear has a weird way of, you know, bursting to the surface again, even though there's no rational reason to be afraid.

Well, these things get embedded so deeply in us that for me, I think it's always kind of there. So every once in a while, one of the crazies will comment on one of my YouTube videos and says, you're leading people to hell. Or, you know, someone says, you know, because you don't believe there's a hell, that means you're going to hell. You know, that little tiny voice in the back of your head goes, what if they're right? Yeah, but, but then I've got so much more saying, yeah, no, that's crazy. That doesn't make any sense.

Yeah, I know. And then, then, and then people say, well, you're, you're listening to the crowds rather than the narrow way, you know, the few. And, uh, elect, whatever. I, I get it all. I, I hear it all the time. But, um, it comes to the, the place— I, I was just, um, emailing somebody this morning where, uh, they were expressing this fear. And, and for me, I, I shared with them, once you realize there's nothing to fear, then everything's okay. You, you're free to be yourself, and you're free to be your authentic self and to believe what you want and to choose how to be spiritual. Once that fear is gone, once you realize there's nothing to fear— it's funny, you know, that I'm not, I'm not sure if this is exactly true, but they say, do not fear, is, is, is said 365 times in the Bible. I don't know if that's actually a factor or not. But I, I don't disbelieve it.

It said a lot. Yeah, I don't know the number, but it said a lot. Yeah.

Do not be afraid. Do not fear, or, or whatever. And, and yet, um, fear is one of the primary tools religion uses to keep us under control, right? So, um, if we can just abide by that, those verses, and say, you know what, I'm not going to be afraid anymore. And see what happens. And I, I tried that, and it is amazing when you're not afraid and you realize nothing's gonna— you know, that there's nothing to fear, then, um, that, that peace of mind can grow.

Yeah. And I'm sure you get the, uh, well, just read your Bible, right? Do you get that from people?

Yeah, I get it so much. I get it so much. Yeah. Um, I'm like I have cartoons about that, actually. What they really mean is you need to read the Bible like I read the Bible.

Exactly.

And you need to believe the Bible the same way I believe the Bible, right? And, um, but I, you know, I don't want to keep having to say, have you read my bio? Like, seriously, I, I, I've got all my Bibles from my teen years and everything, we're all colored, underlined, and everything, right? Margins. Plus I have years of biblical Greek, years of biblical Hebrew, you know, Aramaic even, and etc., etc. And you're telling me, have I read the Bible?

So I laugh at it too, because I've not as much as you, but I've read the Bible a lot. And then I've read all these books about Bible, biblical history, you know, where the Bible came from, and the Council of Nicea, the Nicene Council, and all this stuff, and Constantine, or whatever the dude's name was. So I'm like, the thing is, we— I started kind of chuckling when you said, I started my deconstruction when I was in seminary. That is like, a lot of pastors are not believers anymore. Once they go through seminary, they realize that this doesn't make any sense. But then they have to go preach it.

Yeah, I know pastors who are in the ministry, who— well, I know pastors who— I remember being in a classroom. In my master's, and this guy freaked out and he said, I, I don't believe this anymore. I just don't. And like, he was on, on the eve of his ordination.

Yeah, it's good.

Like, I, I'm done. And he got up and he went out of the classroom, but before he left, he turned the lights out. Oh, very symbolic gesture. Wow. And, uh, and, and then I do know pastors who are in the ministry who, who aren't believers anymore, um, and they really struggle. And some, though, they see it— my job is not to— I'm not their guru. I'm here to encourage them to figure out their own faith, and, and I'm here to assist them in their own spiritual journey without judgment. I think that's valid. And then there's other pastors who were in the ministry, like you say, who don't believe anymore. And they really, really do struggle with having to get up every week and pretend. And so that I feel a lot of empathy for them.

Yeah, me too. So tell me a little bit more about your The Lasting Supper community. Is that an online community? How does that work? Is it a Facebook group? Or how does, how does it work?

Well, it's undergoing, um, renovations right now, but, um, how it all started was, uh, we had online forums. I've decided I don't like online forums, too clunky and old-fashioned for me, but I send out a weekly letter. We would have like a weekly or monthly webinars, like group things. We'd call them Zoom meetings now, where we have live, or Facebook Lives, or whatever. We have a, a private Facebook group, um, and then, um, but a new feature that I'm adding is I have a whole bunch of courses around deconstruction and so on, um, that I'm going to, instead of trying to promote my courses separately. I'm going to make them a part of the Lasting Supper package. So it's going to be quite a, quite a big deal, and I've got a lot of work to do to get work. But, you know, there's a couple hundred members now. I, I don't want it to get huge. Uh, I like the smallness and manageability of it. Uh, facilitating, moderating online community is a full-time job. It's, it's really a lot of work.

Yeah.

And with more people there are, the more work it is. So I need to figure out that aspect, how we're going to do that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I, and I just realized recently since I follow you on Facebook that you do, you also do commission artwork, right? People, people like the cartoons, you'll do commission work for them.

Yeah, I do. I do commissions on, on paintings and also on cartoons and also tattoos. So, um, yeah, I'm always working on commission piece. So, uh, I, I have a lot of fun with that. But yeah, I get, I get requests quite often to, to do commission work.

So I'm also, I'm curious where you are in your spiritual journey now. Do you still identify as Christian, or how do you identify?

Well, I don't, um, this is also a theme in my cartoons, is that I'm, I'm not interested in labels. Uh, so the contents of a can doesn't need to know what it is. It knows what it is. Labels for those on the outside. And so often people come and say, what's your label? Uh, because they want to—

they—

there's a lot of anxiety behind that, wanting to know, how do I talk to you? You know?

Yeah, yeah.

How do I relate to you? What slot do I put you in?

Exactly.

I no longer feel that compulsion to figure out what kind of label the person is. Um, and, um, and, and so what I tell people is that my home is in Christianity, but I have cottages everywhere. Christianity is definitely my family of origin. Uh, I respect my roots and appreciate my roots, but I don't let them limit me either., and, um, and Christianity, Christian theology, and so on is definitely a part of my DNA, but that's not all of me. And, and, and so that's pretty much what I say when people ask me that question. Yeah, no, I'm very comfortable. Uh, I, you know, there's a church that's about an hour away. When Lisa and I can get there, we'll go, we'll hang out. Uh, I have no problem fellowshipping with anybody. Um, you know, uh, except maybe white supremacists, etc. And, um, and not maybe, definitely. Yeah. And, um, so to me, that's, that's how I answer that question. The, yeah, the label is facing outward. Um, I no longer feel I need the label.

Yeah.

Others, when they ask me, um, what's the label, it's usually a long answer just like the one I gave you.

I think that's perfectly fair because you're right, people, and I just want to ask questions, see how you, how you responded to it. And I was, there are a couple of churches that I still really like. And I was talking to someone the other day, they said they were looking for, you know, a community. And I'm like, I like Unity. And I like UCC, United Church of Christ. Those are the last two churches that I attended when I was going to church. But I asked the pastor at the Unity Church one day, I said, we were sitting in a little get-together. I said, would you call us a Christian church? And she gave me an answer that was just as long as the one you just gave, which I loved. Because it's like, yeah, the roots are still in the gospel. They do read gospel every day or every week, every Sunday. But they also read from other spiritual traditions. They're like, you don't have to believe in Jesus. If you do, that's great. If you want to be an atheist and come here, that's fine. So I love that answer. Yeah.

Yeah, I went to a Unitarian Universalist church locally here for a while, but ended up closing.

Yeah.

But Yeah, it was, it was weird, uh, because, uh, it was the exact opposite of my experience in the Vineyard where there was a lot of obsessive-compulsive behavior to constantly be talking about God. And in the Unitarian Universalist Church, there seemed to be a lot of compulsive, obsessive-compulsive, uh, not wanting to mention God.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was kind of a weird, kind of a two sides of the same coin, but Yeah, it's, it's interesting.

And then I always— because there's Unity, there's United Church of Christ, Universalist, Unitarian, there's a— there's all the— so you have to be very careful when you're using these labels, because they are very— they can be very different sometimes. But yeah, it's, you know, I like I said, I appreciate your answers to that question. I struggle. I still— I'm a follower of Jesus. I love Jesus. I expect when I die, I could possibly see Jesus. I think he's a an incredible figure that's unique somehow. But I don't like the label Christian because of what it's become. So I don't identify as Christian anymore. I finally get to the point where I'm comfortable saying that. It's like, it's, it's too complicated to give all the caveats.

It's interesting, somebody today— I'll do cartoons about evangelicalism or whatever.. And, um, so for example, I, I did a cartoon a while ago of, uh, there's a church and there's a big church sign out front in the yard that says First Evangelical Christian Church. And Jesus is walking away. It's nighttime and Jesus is walking away with a spray can and he's sprayed out Christian. Um, —because I think evangelicalism, that word evangelical, evangelicalism has been beaten up beyond recognition because of what's happening in the, you know, with the right-wing kind of stuff. And evangelical used to be a fairly respected kind of theological movement, right? Yeah. But it's lost that. I mean, it's lost that now. It's an object of scorn now. And this person was still trying to defend evangelical, and the root word means good news and blah, blah, blah. More power to you, man, but maybe a resurrection in the future, but right now evangelical, that whole word and everything associated with it is in the garbage. It's Yeah, beyond recognition.

I agree. How far can you stretch it? And same thing for me. How can I keep defending this and saying, but, but that's not the true evangelical, that's not the true this, you know. I, one time I was calling myself a fundamentalist, because I'm like, I'm going back to what I believe Jesus believed. But fundamentalism has been, you know, corrupted. So I'm just, I'm like you now. I'm like, I don't have a— I tell people I practice Brianism. I, I've studied Buddhism. Brian D Smith. It's about what I, what I, what I put together. Exact opposite what they told me in Sunday school. It's like I study Hinduism, Kabbalah, you know, Buddhism, a little bit of Islam, Christianity, quantum physics, you know, near-death experiences. Yeah, wherever I can find truth is what I study.

So for me, the The more I read and listen and so on, when you read Christian mystics, for example, Meister Eckhart or The Cloud of Unknowing or any other Christian mystics, some people might refer to Richard Rohr or some people like that, Thomas Merton. And then you— you read some quantum physics, uh, Carlo Rovelli, um, you know, his, his work on, on physics and so on, um, David Bohm, uh, I just read a biography of Einstein by Isaacson, fascinating. I mean, they, they would— most people would claim they were all atheists, but— and then you, you read, uh, some philosophy like, um, Slavoj Žižek, who's a living philosopher right now, or Hegel, or, you know, others. It's like they— when, when you read across this sort of diverse spectrum, they seem to be sort of talking the same kind of language, you know. And, um, they might not agree with one another, but I'm hearing overtones. I'm hearing the same theme. There's a common thread through mysticism and science and philosophy and so on. That, that's where I'm at, right? When, when somebody tries to pull it down into Christian theology, it, it, it, um, limits it. It loses its breadth and universal, um, you know, appeal. So that, that's For me, I'm like you, the Christian, it needs to— I think Christianity needs to seriously— I don't know how it's going to do it— seriously re-examine itself. Because it's— for many people, Christianity is based in— some might say Christ or Jesus, whatever— but for many, it's based in the Great Commission, which is basically a colonialistic attitude towards the world. How are you going to undo that?

And yeah, I think it's— I hate to say, I think it's beyond redemption. And I was talking to my daughter, you know, yesterday, we're talking about the labels, Christianity. My daughter's 25. And she's like, she's not— she doesn't identify as Christian at all. And I was like, everybody loves Jesus. Jesus is universally loved. Everybody loves Jesus, Jews, everybody, atheists, Everybody loves Jesus, but Christianity is not so much. So I don't know. I don't know how it's gonna work out. I've, I've just, I've walked away. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I hear you. Yeah, my kids are the same. They wouldn't identify as Christian. Yeah. They'd identify as spiritual, however.

Right. Exactly. Exactly. Well, David, I really appreciate your time. It's been really great getting to know you. Tell people where they can find out more about you.

Well, nakedpastor.com, that's my home base. That's base camp and everything from there. I'm Naked Pastor on all social media, from, you know, uh, Twitter to Facebook to LinkedIn to Instagram to TikTok to YouTube. Um, and, uh, nakedpastor.com though is where you can find everything. You can sign up for my weekly newsletters. I've got all my cartoons are on there for prints or art or tattoos or whatever. So yeah, that's my home base. Again, thanks for doing this.

Thanks so much. It's really been a pleasure meeting you.

Yeah, likewise. Thanks for having me on.

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