Forgiving The Unforgiveable- When Your Father Kills Your Mother- Scott Stewart EP 427

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Close your eyes and imagine. What are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain? The things that bring us grief are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Hi there, I'm Brian D Smith. I'm your host here at Grief 2 Growth. And whether this is your first time tuning in, or you've been walking this journey with me for a while, I'm really grateful that you're here. This podcast is a space where we explore some of life's deepest questions like who we are, why we're here, where do we go when we leave this space, and maybe most importantly, how do we find growth through the pain? Today's episode is one that may challenge you, inspire you, and possibly even heal you. I'm sitting down with Scott Stewart. He's a speaker and an overcomer whose story is a powerful testament to what's possible when we dare to face the darkest parts of our past and we choose a different future. Now, Scott grew up in an environment that most people will call anything but nurturing, with manipulative and abusive father and no clear role model of what love or fatherhood should look like. He was set on a painful path early in life. Then, at just 22 years old, a single moment altered everything, marking a before and after not only in his life but in the legacy of his entire family. But of course, that's not where the story ends. Over the next 12-plus years, Scott committed to deep personal healing through counseling, self-development, and a radical shift in perspective. He broke the cycle of generational abuse and emerged with a message centered on one of the most hardest on one of the hardest things many of us will ever face: forgiveness. So in our conversation, Scott's going to open up about what it means to truly forgive, not for the person who hurt you, but for your own peace. He'll walk us through 6 common areas where people get stuck when they're trying to forgive and offer guidance for anyone who's still trying to make sense of their pain. So if you've ever struggled with letting go or felt like healing was out of reach, Scott's journey may be just what you need to hear today. And don't forget, this conversation doesn't have to end when the episode does. Head over to grieftogrowth.com/community, where you can join the discussion, interact with other listeners, and connect with me directly. So now let's get in this powerful conversation with Scott Stewart. And before we start, I gotta say Scott is a forgiving guy, because I've had to postpone this podcast twice. And Scott's still here. So I want to thank you for that, Scott.

Brian D Smith: Brian, that was— that's awesome. Hey, I have a lot of grace. I have a lot of grace to give because a lot has been shown to me. So we're good, man. I'm honored to be here with you, though.

I'm looking forward to having this conversation with you, and I know your, your journey— we talked before we got started, we both had some, some pretty stuff that we've gone through, some pretty rugged stuff as far as our journeys go. So start maybe at the beginning, tell us about your childhood and how that shaped you.

Yeah, well, let's, let's, uh, let's roll right into it. So you, you're looking at someone who was adopted at birth. My I was the product of a, I guess, an unwanted pregnancy, you know, back in 1968, in the late, the end of 1968. And mom and dad who raised me, who were the only mom and dad I ever really knew, my mom was not able to have kids. She just had some things in her body that just wouldn't allow her to conceive. So, so I grew up with a, with a mom and dad that I I don't know, maybe God designed it that way, I'm not sure, but they were always mom and dad, you know, to me. And we moved to a little small town here in the Northwest when I was 5. And it was about that same time I started to notice my dad had some, I had some real anger issues. And now to quantify that, or what do I actually mean by that? You know, some of us were raised by men who raised their voice and they got a little loud when they spoke. Well, this, this was more than that. My, my father, he could go from zero to rage in, in probably just a few seconds. And so that, that was introduced to me early on. And, and you knew that if you did said the wrong thing, uh, that that you were gonna maybe get the wrath of dad. And so I, I kind of grew up on eggshells, Brian, you know, because you never, you never knew when dad was gonna snap. And my mom— now I was closer to my mom, but mom was, uh, let me, well, let me describe it this way. My mom was a world-class enabler, right? Because every time dad would get mad she'd always have an excuse for it, right? Oh, he, you know, he didn't sleep so well last night. Oh, you know, his back, his neck's been hurting him. You know, he's putting in 12, 13-hour days at work. He's tired. I mean, there, it didn't matter what it was, there was always a reason for that. So that was kind of the environment that, that I grew up in and that I was raised. And so I just knew that depending upon the time of the day or the setting, that any moment Dad could snap and get pissed, if I can say it that way. And, you know, he, he was yelling, he was screaming, he was sometimes even throwing things. And it was just what I always felt was just on the edge of losing it, if that makes sense, right? So that, that was the environment that I grew up in, and I— and that's the— that's about the way that I knew it. You know, as, as I went through grade school, middle school, and into high school.

Yeah. So were you an only child in that house?

I was an only child until they adopt— or not adopted, excuse me, they brought in a, uh, they had a foster child come in. And so, and, and today I still look at him as my brother, um, but, but they brought, they brought in a foster child into that kind of environment as well. He was, uh, He's 5 years older than me, so we weren't necessarily that close, but I definitely looked up to him as an older brother.

Yeah, yeah. So how did you, how did you learn to navigate your father's anger?

Holy smokes, I don't know if there ever was. You know, it, it, you just, you faced the wrath of it. Um, the, you know, you didn't put the screwdriver back in the right toolbox drawer, you left this, you left the end wrench on on the workbench, uh, you didn't lock the door last night. I mean, it just— anything that could have set him off did.

Yeah.

And so I, I think that it wasn't so much learning how to navigate it, it was just living in fear, Brian. I think that's the, that's the best way to say it, you know. And, and, and what— we could have an argument, or we could have a discussion on maybe a little bit of fear sometimes in certain situations might be a healthy thing, you know. It keeps us alert, it keeps us aware. Uh, but growing up with a father that you're fearful of, yeah, I'm not, I'm not convinced that that maybe was the, uh, was the best way to bring a, to bring up a son into this world.

Yeah, well, I say that all emotions have, have their place. All emotions have, you know, and, and fear— not that we want to live in fear, you're complete— I completely agree with that, but having fear keeps us safe. And I know a lot of times when people grow up in those environments, they become hypersensitive and they try to— they learn or at least as much as possible. How do I navigate this? When can I see a trigger point and maybe get away? So I don't know if you've experienced any of that, or if it was just like, you just— it was like at any time it sounds like he could maybe go off.

Yeah, there, there I did. As I got older, I did learn the freedom of not being home. And so, you know, going over to friend's house, going over to my grandmother's house, And then when I got my driver's license, you know, that, that freedom not only meant as a teenager to be free and, and go do fun things, but to, to leave that environment. You know, there was a, there was a freeing, uh, or freedom about that. So there, there was some of that definitely as I got to be in my middle, late teens.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it sounds like you never really felt safe at home.

No, I never really— no, that, that's a great way to say that. It, uh, you know, even, even on some of the most enjoyable, memorable things that a family should do, you know, and I'm gonna call it like Christmases, right, holidays, picnics, uh, camping trips. I mean, you know, those are supposed to be really bonding, you know, times. And even with a lot of those, Brian, I, I have and held, uh, more, more negative, uh, memories, you know, about a lot of that than I did positive ones, simply because of my father.

Now, I know you did reach a turning point in your life, um, in the, in the early '90s, I guess it was. So what, what happened at that point?

Yeah, yeah, I There was a— there was a— well, and let me put some context to this before I answer your question directly. But there— I had moved out when I was 18, and which was a beautiful thing. That really needed to happen because the amount of toxicity, maybe that's what we're going to call it. The amount of toxicity from my dad, it, it had reached new levels, and I couldn't be around him. I couldn't be around him for any more than, you know, 5 or 10 minutes. And so when I moved out, I, I experienced a lot more freedom and just enjoyment in life. Now, this was obviously right after school. Well, I had, I had scheduled a dinner with my mom and dad, and this would have been in August of 1991. I had scheduled a dinner at their house after work. This was on a Monday night, and I show up over there. We're getting ready to have dinner, and my mom made homemade spaghetti. And oh my gosh, mom did such an amazing job with, uh, with spaghetti. It was just incredible. So I was ready to— hang on just one second. Sorry. Oh my gosh, all kinds of noise going on outside. My apologies. So there— so I sat down, we had dinner, we broke bread, had spaghetti. It was fantastic, Brian. It was just amazing. And everything seemed fine. My dad's anger was in check. Good conversation with them. And a couple hours later, I got ready to leave the house. I walked to the— walked to the front door, opened, you know, got ready to go through. My mom followed me through, and she says, uh, come here, you. She says, give me a hug, give me a kiss. And like any good son, you know, I turned around, kissed her on the cheek, held her, and said, I love you. And she said, I love you too. And what I didn't know was that was going to be the last time I would ever see her again. And what happened later that night, uh, hours after I had left, in a fit of a rage, my dad, in a very barbaric, in a very ugly way, while my mom laid sleeping in her bed, he took her life.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, thank you. And it Um, as you, as you might guess, everything changed.

Yeah, yeah.

And I got the, I got the phone call at 11:30 and from a family member, and he said, hey, you got to get over here to your mom and dad's house, like right now, like right now, get over here. And I remember throwing on some clothes and driving over there, and they live on a— or at that time they lived on a a straight, very straight country road. And when I turned on the— onto the road and headed, I could see a small city of lights down there by their house. And I knew— you get that feeling in your stomach that something is really, really wrong. And I pull up to the house and, and I met with law enforcement. And they're, uh, you know, there's the do not cross yellow tape, and there's state police, county police, city police. I mean, and there's paramedics medics, ambulances. It's— it looks— it just looked like something out of a, out of a movie. And to speed the story along, the officer had told me that my mom was deceased and they had my dad in custody. Now, I was, I was 22 years old and no real foundation, no real direction. And you, when you're told something like that, and you, you, you take a moment to try and process it, it's, it's more, it's more than you really can process in a moment, you know. And I remember just kind of going numb. I, Brian D Smith, there's really no, there's really no good way to say it. But when you're met with something like that, that is so horrific. You, you, you get numb, and maybe you have some emotions of sadness, anger, sadness, anger, more sadness, more anger along the way, you know, right? And they hauled my dad off to county jail. And it's, it's interesting, I've often said this, that, you know, we often think that the world stops, you know, and something— a horrible, horrible tragic event like this, the world stops. Well, the world doesn't stop. It keeps going. And it's— it— it— for about 2 years, I went— I kind of went off the rails, um, drinking to, to medicate, just so I didn't have to feel so much hurt, so much pain, sorrow. Yeah, it, it wasn't— it wasn't drinking to, to just get blotto drunk all the time. It was— it was drinking just to numb the pain. I was self-medicating. That was the only way I knew how to get through the day. Sure, you know, a few months after that, he's in jail and I'm self-medicating. Come to find out, there were 3 young— at that point, at that time, they were teenage girls, uh, or late teens— but they had, uh, they had come forward. There was 3 of them, and they had said, hey, look, we really didn't want to— we didn't really want to say anything, but he inappropriately touched us multiple times. And so now we have, now we have child molestation, we have murder, and you know, it's, it's one of those things that if you, if it's possible to, to just feel nothing, I, I think that's kind of where I was at, you know.

Yeah.

So all of this happens, and how do you, how does one process that? How does one continue to walk through life? Because at the end of the day, you still, you still got to go to work, you still got to get up. I mean, you still got to go throughout your day. And I, I was, for a couple years, I was in a pretty dark spot.

Sure.

And, uh, I remember, I remember I was, I was at work, I was in the cafeteria at my place of employment, and there was a, a gentleman there, that coworker, and he was a Christian guy, and, and a lot of people, a lot of people knew that. And I was having— I was having— Brian, I was having a rough day. This one day particular was, was worse than most. And he, he came and sat beside me at the table, and he asked how it was going, and I was like, yeah, yeah, it's going, you know, getting through it. And he, he stopped and he looked at me, and he goes, no, How's it really going?

Yeah.

And man, I just about broke down and lost it, you know. I just couldn't hold it together anymore. And he said, you know, he goes, you can't, you can't keep living like this, right? And I knew he was right. I knew he was right because I was heading down a pretty dark path. And that, that day kind of started a change because I, I knew that I needed to start dealing with this stuff, or it was gonna— or it was gonna destroy me. You know, it was just gonna destroy me. And so that— to come to answer your question, you know, 10 minutes later, but the— I started— I found a counselor, I found a therapist, and I, I kind of immersed myself into self-development and self-growth and, and started to slowly undo the things in my head that, that a lot of what my father had done and started to process this stuff and started to undo or unprogram the way that I had been programmed through a lot of guilt, a lot of manipulation, all sorts of very toxic, destructive, uh, you know, things that I had learned, you know, growing up. And so, we started a new trend and that is that I'm going to heal from this. I'm going to get past this. I can't let this weigh me down. I use the example or the metaphor, Brian, imagine if we have a backpack on and somewhere in high school, we put this backpack on. Every traumatic event, and, and sometimes a lot of traumatic, sometimes a little bit, but every time we put a brick, we put it in our backpack every time, right? And before we know it, you know, we go into adulthood and we got this, this backpack full of bricks. And I knew that if I did not empty out the bricks, uh, my life stood no chance. No chance of happiness, no chance of, of making relationships work, no, no chance of making a marriage work. And, no chance of being a good father. I, I wanted to be a good father, but I hadn't had an example set for me. So that, that kind of started a new pattern, you know, I guess, if you will. Yeah.

Wow. I can, I can only imagine, um, the emotions. I mean, you talked about the numbness at first, and I think anybody that's been through a deeply traumatic event can understand what you're saying. I know it's hard for people who haven't been through that to understand, but you're just like, you can only take so much, and it's like a circuit breaker. And it's just like, and I've heard people say, I thought I was broken, because I wasn't feeling anything, I should have been feeling all these things. And then the feelings start to come, you know, anger, guilt, depression, sadness, you know, all those things I can imagine that you, you must have been cycling through, and then to add the child molestation on top of that, that seems like, you know, even another betrayal. So, um, I do want to touch up on a moment though when you talked about when you were leaving and the way your mother— the last time you said goodbye to her, because that's— it just really struck me. I hear that so often. Was that the way that your mother would normally say goodbye to you, or was there something different about that moment?

Yeah, great question. Uh, uh, this has ran through my thoughts too probably 100 or 200 times. I, I think there was— I think this was a little bit different, uh, for her to follow me actually to the door, you know. Now, you know, give her a hug and say goodbye and walk out the door, that's not a big deal. But for her to actually follow me and then, you know, follow me kind of out and give me a hug, and, and, uh, I, I don't— I, I think, um I think it was a little different that time, and I'm very thankful, very, you know, I've, I've been very thankful for those seconds that I got with her, you know. But yeah, not, not necessarily the norm though.

No. Yeah, yeah, I just wanted to, I wanted to touch on that because I, um, I do find that happens sometimes, and, and it's one of those moments as we look back in time, it's like neither one has had any earthly idea that this was going to happen, but there's something I think in spirit that speaks to us in those types of moments. So here you are, you're, you know, you're a very young man. Your father has betrayed you in a way that's like not even imaginable. And you're going through all the things and you said you're coping, but it's eating you up inside. So how was your relationship with your father? He's in jail or in prison or whatever. Did you go to visit him? Did you talk to him? What was that like?

Yes, a great question. About 2 or 3 weeks after, after he was incarcerated, uh, in the county jail, I went and saw him. And my— I have a, I have a half-sister because he, he was married before, previously, and, and he had 2 daughters with that woman. So I have what I would call a half-sister, and my half-sister wanted to go see him. And she, she asked me, she said, do you want to go with me? And I, I kind of hem-hawed, and I was like, okay, I'll go. And to— for her, she was like, I want to look him right in the eye, and, and I, I want to make my own, you know, determination. Did he actually do this? You know. And so she was coping with it in her own way. So we went and saw him, and I remember sitting there just like it was yesterday, Brian. But, you know, you've got the glass, you know, you got the phone, and he's, you know, wearing the orange jumpsuit, you know, just like what you'd see on TV. And, uh, this was— this is another very telling piece to the story that will answer some of your question. We small talked for a moment, and then he looked right at me. And, and, you know, someone who is really, really good at manipulation You can almost— they can almost do it with just the way they look at you if they've done it enough. They're that good at it. And my dad had military-grade manipulation skills. It was impressive and not in a good way. And he's looking at me, and he looked at me and he goes, do you think I killed your mom? And I said, I, I don't know what to think. I, I'm hoping this is a really bad dream. I'm hoping this is a nightmare that I wake up from. I, I don't know. And that was genuinely how I felt at the time, right? I didn't, I, I didn't, I didn't want to believe that he could do such a thing. But I said, you know, I, I don't know, I'm just trying to get through every day. And he looked right at me, Brian D Smith, he goes, well, he goes, I didn't, but I told the police I did to cover up for you because I thought you did it. Oh wow, wow, true story. And, you know, comes back to that, what, what, what we both were just talking about a moment ago, of when you feel nothing because there's, there's just so much. And it, it kind of just, it kind of went by me like, what? You know, and That was the last time that I had communication with him. And after that, I had decided I'm— there's no reason, at least it for right now, for this year, next year, there's no reason to have communication with him. I did see him in court 4 years, 3 and a half, 4 years later at his sentencing, because when you admit to a murder in the state of Oregon, you go straight to the front of the line for sentencing. There is no trial. You, you admitted guilt, uh, you admitted murder, and you go straight to the front of the line for sentencing. He did admit it. Yeah, he did admit it. And I saw him at the, uh, at the sentencing and had no communication with him, but, um, we, we exchanged, you know, eyeballs across the room. Um, but I know I never did have a relationship with him after that.

Wow. So at what point does forgiveness come into this? And I, I ask you this because it's, you know, forgiveness is such a, it's such a tricky thing for all of us. And I, and I've talked to people who have said, this person did something to me you just don't understand, I cannot forgive this. And I, I'm always fascinated when I talk to someone like yourself who's, you know, an example of like, this is beyond forgive. If anything is beyond forgiveness, it's this. So what did someone say to you? You have to forgive him. And how did that— how did you get to the point where you realize this is something I need to do? Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

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I appreciate that. Thank you for acknowledging that. I think to answer that, I want to start out with that somehow I knew. And did I know it right away? No, I did not. But I eventually knew. That if I didn't forgive this— and, and what, let me quantify something when I say forgive— release it, release it. And maybe, maybe we use that word for right now instead of forgiveness. I had to release it because if I didn't, it was, it was going to destroy my life. I somehow knew that divine Probably. I, I, other than that, I don't know that I could— I can tell you how that is. Yeah, but I just knew, I just knew that if I continued to hang on to that, that bitterness, that anger, the betrayal that I felt, it, it was going to take me down a bad, bad road, man. So when did forgiveness start to come into play? I had been going to therapy for about 2 and a half— 2, excuse me, 2, 2 and a half years, and we were making some headway. And, and let me, let me share with this as well with your listeners. I understand if someone doesn't get the right therapist or they don't, they, they're— they don't find the right counselor for them therapy doesn't always do kind of what it, what it can or what it's capable of. And I understand that. I'm very compassionate, empathetic to that. I happened to find the right one. I really truly did. Not on the first try, but on the second try, I found the right one. And she, she was able to work, help me, uh, to work wonders. And so we started undoing, you know, in that 2, 2 and a half years, Brian, we undid a lot of the things up here. And it was about year 2, somewhere around there, that she, she kind of had mentioned, uh, started talking a little bit about, you know, like, do you ever think you could forgive your father? And it was kind of— I can look at it now and kind of laugh. At the time it wasn't funny. Yeah. Uh, but I was like, oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know all about that forgiveness thing. Yeah, we, we don't need to even talk about that, right? And yeah, we just— I know all about that. And she, she was— again, she was the right— she was the right therapist for And she, she could tell that, that I needed to have an adequate or a proper understanding of what forgiveness is. Right. And so that started a little bit of that path on understanding and having an accurate belief of what forgiveness is. Yeah, because, because here's what I know now. If, if you and I hold an accurate understanding, an accurate belief about what forgiveness is and who it's for, I believe anything is forgivable. If, if you hold the right understanding of what it is and who it's for, that's the key. That's the key component. Okay, now you're talking— I'm— I can say that because I have forgiven murder.

Yeah.

Okay. So understand, I'm not just someone preaching from the front of the room that has never been through this.

Yes.

Right. So in, in that, in that counseling, it, it started to become very evident that I had a very, uh, screwed up false belief of what forgiveness is.

We all do. Most of us do. Yeah, most of us do. And I— and that's why this conversation, I think, is so, so important. So let's, let's break those two things down. First of all, let's talk about what forgiveness is and what forgiveness isn't.

Yeah, you betcha. I— the— here's the, the best definition that I've been able to come up with. I believe forgiveness is releasing the hurt and the anger and the bitterness so that you can continue through your life without it falsely or negatively adversely affecting you. It doesn't mean it goes away. That doesn't mean you, you forget about it. It just means that, like, right now, you and I are having this, this, this video call, and I can talk about this, and it's not, it's not raging me. It's not making me angry, right? I'm exactly I can talk about my father in a, in somewhat of a healthy, uh, state of mind without it, uh, having me go sideways.

Exactly.

You know, so that, so that's my— that now, that's for me. Now, that may, that may not be for everybody, but that's my definition for me of what I've came up with.

Yeah, I think it's, I think it's as good as any. And I, I heard one definition, I think it was Oprah Winfrey that said this, is like forgiveness is— and maybe she wasn't the first person forgiveness is giving up all hope for a better past. Because when we're holding on to things, we're like, we're— it's almost like we're trying to change the past. And so it's— there's some acceptance and forgiveness, not in that it was right, but in that it actually happened. Yeah. And then the other important component is who it's for.

Yeah. Oh goodness, this was one that I struggled with, buddy. I struggled with this. The, you know, there's a, there's so many preconceived ideas, and you and I have probably both heard numerous times, we've heard people say that I'll, I'll never forgive them, right? I'll, I could never forgive them for what they did. And, and I understand, I, I have compassion and empathy where they are coming from because I, I stood in those exact shoes.

Sure.

The, the difference is that forgiving them has very little to do, if anything, about them, and it has everything to do about us. Us as the, in this case, the victim, the, the person who was wronged, the person who was betrayed. The forgiveness piece did nothing for my father. Did nothing, nothing, zero. It— what it did was allow me to release and let go and not be kept hostage by that hurt. And so the forgiveness was for me. It, it was never— it was never for him. It, it is completely, totally irrelevant. In fact, you could look at it this way. I'm not saying I do, but you could look at it and go, it's completely irrelevant to them whatsoever, because forgiveness just totally is on the person releasing all of that negative energy, emotion, madness. I mean, the list is long, right?

Yeah.

So it's for me, it's for us, it's for you. It's not for the person who hurts you.

Yeah. And I think that is, again, that's so key. And I also believe that forgiveness is a process. I mean, we can talk about that on an intellectual level, but it doesn't mean that, like, oh, I'm just over it. I mean, it takes, it takes a while to, to set that, that righteous anger aside, because there is, there is some righteousness to that anger. I mean, we have, we have, we have a right to that. And I think some people, they, they hold on to that and they say, well, this is my right, and, and because this was so egregious, it's my right though. And it's like, you want to say, yeah, it's your right, but it's like, it's like holding a hot coal in your hand.

You could hold on to it but it's going to burn you and it's going to hurt like hell. Can I just say that? Yeah, it's going to burn.

Yeah.

And it's going to leave a nasty scar. Nasty scar by hanging on to it.

Yeah. Now, I know you've, as you've gone through your understanding and you're growing, you've identified 6 areas where people get stuck when it comes to forgiveness. Can you give us what some of those are?

Yeah, for sure. Absolutely.

The—

we'll start off on, on the first one. The— a lot of people feel like that if I trust— excuse me, if I forgive the person, that I automatically have to trust them again, or I have to give them access. I have to feel like, okay, we're going right back to where we were before the event, before the betrayal, before the wrongdoing. And, and no, no, no, you don't. No. Forgiveness and, and trust, or call it access, those are, those are different. Those are different things. I can, I, I can forgive someone, but you're not gaining access back to me again because the, the trust has been broke.

So, right.

So I, I, I look at it like this, Brian. I can choose my choice, not anybody else's, my choice to forgive, which is release. But I do not choose to trust you because the trust has been broke. Now, now, could I say maybe someday after the trust has been proven? Yeah, yeah, we could, we could have that conversation, of course. But, but I think also too, the, the person who was offended, the person who was hurt has the right to say, no, blocked access. I, I'm not going to take another chance. You're not going to hurt me like that. You're not— whatever, whatever that is. And in that, that was my case in with my father. Uh, no access denied. Um, he was a little side note, which is why I chose this path. My father was never remorseful for what he did. Never.

Never.

Yeah. And because of that, um, no access denied. Our relationship is severed. I, I let go of the hurt. I wished him well. I did that through a note. Uh, I was not mad at him. I didn't cuss him out. I didn't yell and scream at him. But I said, I forgive you for all the times you've hurt me, but you're not welcome back in my life.

Yeah, that's fair.

And so, yeah, so, so I think, you know, trust, access, uh, that, that doesn't go hand in hand with forgiveness. It does not, right? So that's the first one. I think the second one is, as we already covered, but for who forgiveness is for, you know, it's, it's for us. It's not for the other person. I think if we get caught up in that thinking that forgiveness, you know, is for the other person um, it'll really— it can get us, uh, kind of wrapped around the axle, if you will. Which, which brings me into the third one, which is people often think that if, well, if I forgive them, I've excused their behavior. I've, I've, I've kind of have said, well, I forgive you, so whatever they did is, is kind of like just brushed under the rug, right?

Right, exactly.

Not true.

Right.

Not true. Absolutely not true. Nope. There are always consequences to actions, right? 100%. It's unavoidable in the— in this world anyway. Uh, it's, it's unavoidable. And I never ever once excused the behavior of my father, uh, in addition to what he, you know, taking my mom's life. But all of the time, the way he treated me, how he belittled me, he humiliated me in front of friends and family. Uh, it, it— that was never excused, but I was still able to forgive him. Right, right, right. Uh, fourth one is— and you, you, you touched base on this a little bit when you said that forgiveness is a process. And I'm going to use, um, I, it— I'm going to use a little bit of scripture reference. Just, I'll keep it light. This isn't a— this isn't church by any means, but it's the best It's the best example that I've found. Um, in, in Matthew 18:21-22, Jesus— and Jesus is teaching to a group of people. We don't, we don't know if there was a dozen people there or 200 people there. We don't know. But this is when he is teaching, and Peter says— he's— and a lot— and the reason I use this scripture is because a lot of people have heard it, but he kind of Peter butts in and he says, how many times should I forgive him? Should I forgive them 7 times if they've wronged me? Right? We've all heard this story before. Should I forgive him 7 times? And I'm sure Peter probably thought, 7 times, that's a good number. That's a lot of grace. And what does Jesus say? He goes, mm, little light there. How about 7 times 70 or 7 times 77, or depends on which translation you read. It's a lot, right? It's a lot. What did he— what did he mean by that? I can only tell you what my conviction is, and I don't, I don't tell everybody else that they should have the same conviction. I don't tell anybody to believe what I believe, but this is my conviction, and it's more than a belief. It's something that I have lived, and it's, it's kind of become a part of who I am. Forgiving my father, I had to do it more than a few times, more than a dozen times, more than 50 times, more than 100 times. And let me give you some examples of what I mean. When I first started the process of saying nope, I'm gonna forgive this man. I— nope, I'm— I choose to forgive him. I didn't feel— that wasn't a warm and fuzzy thought. Yeah, I, I didn't want to say it, but I knew I needed to. And, and then it got to the point where I started saying it. And then, like, as an example, Brian, we have, uh, where I live, when the snow level comes down, you know, snow level comes down, comes into the mountains. And a bunch of my friends and their dads, we all took our four-wheel drives, you know, we go up in the snow and build a big fire and hang out with our dads. And I was the only one there without a dad. And I realized I'm gonna have to forgive him again because he's not here. And then at Christmas time When my wife and I were married, my first Christmas with my wife, my mom and dad weren't there, and I had to forgive him again.

Wow.

And when my wife and I got pregnant with my, my, uh, my, our first daughter, and the excitement and the joy, and I couldn't share that with my mom and dad, and I had to forgive him again. And then when the day my daughter was born. Brian D Smith, she's seconds old. She just came out of my wife. She's seconds old. And the nurse says, okay, Dad, you hold her. And I'm holding this, this beautiful little girl who's crying and screaming and just tears coming down. And I realized I had to forgive my dad again. Because my mom couldn't be there to hold her granddaughter.

Wow.

Forgiveness is a process, and that process may take time, and it may take a dozen times, it may take 30 times. I probably had to forgive my father— I, I don't know, Brian— 150, 170 times. I don't know, I lost track. But every time that anger or those negative thoughts, those, those hurtful thoughts would come in, I had to choose to say, no, no, no, I'm not going to get mad over this. I'm, I'm letting it go. I forgive him. I'm not going to hang on to it. I had to do that over and over and over and over. Probably 11 to 12 years, Brian. Yeah, that's how— that's how do you— how do you forgive something like that? I just told you, that's, that's the process. At least it was for me. Okay, it, it, it was for me. And maybe somebody else, you know, maybe it's only a couple years, maybe it's only 6 months, I don't know. But that's what it took for me. And And, and finally it got to a place where I no longer had to forgive him. Because why? Because I wasn't, wasn't mad about it. I wasn't angry. Sad, sad that my mom wasn't at Christmas. Yeah, of course. Mad at him? Nah, no.

Well, I've, I've never heard it put that way before, Scott, and that was, that's very powerful. I mean, very, very powerful what you just said. And, and You know, I've heard that, that verse in the Bible, as you were saying, and I was thinking, you know, there's a couple things. One, you just talked about it, it might be an act that happened in the past, it might be several acts that happened in the past, but it has reverberations, reverbs through the future, right?

Right.

So you've got these— this— it's kind of— it's still coming up and coming up, and you have to forgive over and over again. And it's also that thing about, like, you know, when Jesus said that, as you were saying, I What happens? Because, you know, some of us can get very legalist, like Peter was, right? 7, right?

7.

Oh, 7 times 70. Okay, well, that's 490. So what happens at the 491st time, right? It's like, right, 490, yeah, you got it, but 491, I'm done. But when you understand that it's not for them, it's for me, yeah, then yeah, I gotta let this go too. Gotta let it go too, because there's holding on towards— it's only hurting me.

100%. 100%. Moving along real quick here, I think, which, which is a great segue into the next one, is, um, you have to want to. You have to want to do this. This is, this is not something that you're like, well, one day I'll forgive them. What does that mean? One day? What does that mean? No, you look Again, this comes back to something I said when we first started, and that is, is that I didn't want this to screw up my life. I, I was young when this happened. I had a whole life ahead of me, and I didn't want to be the kind of father for my kids that my dad was for me. I didn't want that. Yeah, I wanted, I wanted to be a better father. I wanted to be a better role model. I, I wanted to be I, I didn't want to be just an okay dad. I wanted to be a great dad.

Yeah.

So forgiveness is something you choose, and you have to have intention if you're going to do it. And, and it doesn't just happen automatically. It's not some magical thing that just— whoa, I'm— yeah, I forgive him today. That— no, no, that's not how it works. So If you're holding or— well, yeah, if you're holding on to thoughts of, I'm going to get revenge, or if you're thinking like, I hope that blankety-blank-blank rots in hell. And I mean, if you're holding those things, pretty hard to be intentional about forgiving. Right now, do those kinds of things— are those part of the processes and the things that you will feel along the way? Oh yeah, 100%. 100%. But here's, here's the empowering piece. I hope nobody misses it. You also have a choice to move on from that.

Yeah.

And how do you do that? It's every day you say, you know what, today I'm gonna forgive them. And if those thoughts come back into my head and remind me of how much that hurt— they violated me, they stole from me, they whatever they did— if you continue to entertain those thoughts instead of thinking, nope, nope, not today, not today, I'm, I'm choosing to forgive them, um, you're going to be stuck. It— you have to be intentional about forgiving. You have to want to. Yeah.

Absolutely. Well, as— let's talk about choice also, because I think that's another really interesting thing. And you just talked about how choices involved in forgiveness, but there's also this aspect of you that says, you know, you were, uh, adopted. So, you know, your, your birth parents for whatever reason weren't able to take care of you, so you're adopted. You're adopted into a family where your father's not showing you any kind of a role model how to be a good father. But you made a choice. You made a very intentional choice to break that generational legacy, if you want to call it that. So help people understand, you know, how did you— how do you do that? Because I hear people say, well, I can't— you don't understand, I can't make that choice. This is the way I was raised. This is what my father modeled for me. How did you do that?

So this comes back to the piece when I told you that I dove into personal development. That in, in my, in my, call it mid to early 20s, those, that, that personal development piece and the videos, the audios started introducing me to something that I had never heard before. And that was, you don't have to be a victim to your past. You don't have to stay the way you are. You, you actually can make different choices. You can hang around different people. You know, it all depends on who we listen to, right? So it was the, the personal development piece was very powerful for me in, in helping me to see a little bit different way. Um, the, the, the aspect of, wait a minute, I don't, I don't have to stay like this, you know. I think when, when, when people say, well, this is how I was raised, this is all I've ever known, okay, I understand that. Does that mean— what does that mean? You're not willing to try something different? I mean, does that mean— are you trying to tell me that you want to stay in your comfort zone and you're not willing to to entertain and do something different and, and look at being something different, right? Because I think there's, there's two things here. When someone says, you don't understand, I can't forgive, and then versus someone that says, you don't understand, I won't, right? See, one probably needs— means you need help. The other one probably means you're stubborn.

Yeah, yeah.

I won't forgive. Yeah, being a little stubborn, aren't you? Right? Yeah. So I, I had some help, and, and I, I, and I, I also sought out mentors that I felt like at that time in my life were at least somebody to help lift me up a little bit. Mentors are a fabulous, fabulous thing, especially when I didn't even have any, you know, in this in my life. So, so I think there's a couple different things that point the finger, you know, towards, towards changing your life. And, and, and again, it comes back to is I just, I wanted to. I didn't, you know, my father, excuse me, my grandfather, and then his father, and then great-great-grandfather, there was this cycle there was this cycle of abuse. And, and, and, you know, we can— it's easy to say that in those days, you know, the men were very, very rough and hardened and from war and everything. And I understand that. I, I'm not going to deny that, right? But you and I still have a choice. You and I still have a choice tomorrow. Instead of doing what we've always done, we can, we can decide to make a little bit of a difference, of a change. And maybe that's pick up a book, maybe that's start to have— get a mentor who's, who's kind of in an area of life that where we want to be like, and have a mentor. We, we can— we don't have to make huge changes, but we can make small changes, you know.

Yeah. So it's interesting when you said people being in their, in their comfort zone, the thought that just came to me was they're in their discomfort zone. They're not, they're not really happy with where they are. They're just, they're just, they're kind of like saying, I, you know, I, I can't change. And dude, like, you came back to the I can't or I won't, because I, you know, it also came to me was Dr. Phil's like, how's that working out for you, right?

I love that saying.

And, you know, it was, as we get all kinds of opinions about Dr. Phil, but that was one of the things I love, that where he's like, how's that working out for you? So You know, people like yourself have said, okay, this is, this is my legacy. How is this working out for me? It's not, right? So it's not working. I can choose to change. I don't have to be this way. I don't have to accept that. And, you know, this has been such a powerful conversation. I hope people really are getting, you know, out of it with what you're saying, because when it comes to forgiveness, yes, it is a choice. You do have a choice. It's a process. You have to figure out what it is and what it's not, who it's for and who it's not for. You know, you can say— and I can tell from this conversation— you have forgiven your father, but you're not in relationship with him, and that's okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That it, it, it took a while to get there. Yeah, as, as you might expect, but we got there. You know, we got there. And I never— I never— when I decided to forgive him, I never sat here and went, okay, damn, this might take a year. This might take 10 years. I mean, I never did that. I just started because I knew I wanted different results. And, and the, the amount of anger and hurt that I had. I, I don't— I mean, I know people do it, but Brian, I can't imagine carrying it a lifetime. I, I just can't. I, I just can't. How much it would have negatively affected my health, my mental health, my relationships, my happiness. It's just baffling to me. You know, yeah.

And another thing I just want to say before we wrap up, I mean, you're just such a great example of, you know, again, people will say, this is a trajectory of my life, this is where it's going to go, and it can never get any better, you know. Uh, and you're the person said, okay, yeah, I was dealt this hand, but I can, I can play this hand in a very different way. And you've got your great example of it's never too late to, to make a choice. So I want Thank you for being such an inspiration.

Yeah, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. One, one last one here. Forgiveness can't change the past, and then— and that's pretty obvious, you know, it, it, it doesn't change anything of the past. But here's what it does do. It does change the future. Yeah, it, it does change the future. And that should be a lot of hope for a lot of people. Yeah, because if you started today and you started actively, just actively, intentionally saying, you know what, I'm gonna forgive that person, I'm, I'm just not gonna carry this around anymore, you know, waking up at 3 AM thinking about it stealing your happiness and your joy on a vacation because you're thinking about this person who wronged you. It— it— you're— you start the process of forgiving, and one day you're going to wake up and go, oh my gosh, this is— this is kind of nice. I'm not carrying around that weight anymore. I'm not— these people aren't intruding on my thoughts uninvited, you know. I just— I just kind of let it go. So it— it— no, forgiveness is not going to change one thing about what happened. It's not. But it's going to change everything for you moving forward. And that, that should be a lot of hope and light at the end of the tunnel.

Yeah, awesome, awesome. Well, Scott, after listening to this, people might want to reach out to you. How can people find out more about you?

Yeah, if you want to find me on— you can find me on Facebook. I've got a professional, uh, professional page on there, uh, Scott Stewart, uh, author, speaker, Overcomer. You can find me on there. If you, if you send me a friend request on Facebook and I don't respond to you, don't take it personal. I just, I generally don't respond to friend requests of people I don't know because there's so many scams and so many people doing crazy stuff. Sure. Then you can find me on LinkedIn and, uh, and my website, uh, if you want to learn a little bit more about me, uh, scottstewartspeaking.com, and it's easy to find. Yeah, yeah.

Scott, uh, thank you so much for doing this, this afternoon. I appreciate it. It's been great getting to know you. I know you're going to inspire a lot of people.

Thanks, Brian. I appreciate that. It's been, been an honor to share. Hopefully we planted some seeds with the right people.

Absolutely. All right, have a great afternoon.

Awesome. Thank you, sir.

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