From Pain to Purpose: Kim Hodous on Connecting with Her Children in Spirit EP 430

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Close your eyes and imagine. What are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain? The things that bring us grief are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Hey there, everyone. I'm Brian D Smith. I'm your host, and I want to welcome you to Grief to Growth. Whether you're here for the first time, or you've been walking on this road with me for a while, I'm really grateful to have you with us today. This show is about navigating the toughest parts of life. Yeah, grief, loss, and the deep questions that follow. We'll talk about who we are, why we're here, and where we go after this life. Most of all, we search for hope. And today's episode brings us a powerful story of transformation and a woman who had to unlearn what she thought she knew in order to find what her soul truly needed. I'm joined by Kim Hodas, a woman who has walked through the fire of loss and emerged with the message of healing and connection. Kim's journey began in a traditional religious household. Her father was a preacher, and her early understanding of life, death, and the afterlife was deeply shaped by that faith. So when she lost two of her children, she found herself not only shattered by grief, as many of us are, but she also questioned everything that she'd been taught. And what followed was nothing short of extraordinary. Now, in her book, My Son's Afterlife Breakthrough: Uncensored Conversations That Confirm There's Life After Death, Kim shares her open, raw, and awe-inspiring communications with her son after he crossed over. She found undeniable signs that love doesn't end at death. And those experiences launched her into a mission to help mothers connect with their children in spirit. In our conversation, we'll talk about what it means to challenge lifelong beliefs, how spiritual connection can coexist with religious roots, what Kim discovered when she stopped asking why and started asking, how can I still love him? We'll dive into her son's messages, the way she reframed addiction as a spiritual lesson, and how she now lives with both grief and joy in her heart at the same time. So if you've ever felt caught between faith and curiosity, or you've ever wondered whether your loved ones are trying to reach you, this episode might be the breakthrough that you didn't know you needed. And when you're ready to go deeper, don't forget, join us at grieftogrowth.com/community to carry the conversation there. And with that, I want to welcome Kim to Grief to Growth.

Hmm, thank you for the beautiful introduction, Brian. Wow, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

It's great to have you here. And I should have asked you before we started if I pronounced your last name correctly. So can you pronounce your last name for me?

Otis. I think you got it.

I think I got it right. There we go.

Yeah, you did. So, Kim, you know, I had that one figured out early. Yeah.

It's great to have you here today. It's always interesting to talk to what we call shining light parents, parents who have a child in spirit. And I know that you have two children in spirit. So you've gone through that journey a couple of times. Um, so tell me, I like to start off when, when we have someone that's passed on— I don't like to use the word loss, but someone who's passed on— I want to talk about them. I want to honor them. So tell me about your children.

Okay, well, Chelsea was just 2. Um, I was 30 years old, she was 2. I had 4 kids under the age of 5, and, um, she was diagnosed with leukemia just shy of turning 2. And had a bone marrow transplant, which Rob, my son that later transitioned, was— he was the bone marrow donor. And it's been an interesting journey. I won't jump too far ahead. But once when Rob passed and we began to communicate, he, he connected all the dots for me that Chelsea's death really was what started my spiritual awakening. So I could be ready 3 decades later when he passed to step into this space that I've been asked to step into that, frankly, I didn't ask for and didn't really want. And so I'm still trying to come to peace with it. But so Chelsea was just a precious little imp, and she went through so much in her short, short life. And that experience was very different from Rob's, in part because I was so much younger. I was only 30. I'm now 61. She had— was only 2, and we were with her the whole time. You know, we, we were holding her in her— in our arms as she took her last breath on the 9th floor of the Minneapolis Pediatric Bone Marrow Transplant Center. Um, Rob, on the other hand, was 29. He was a super cool dude. Um, he was a tennis pro. Um, he had built a little tennis academy up on Mount Sequoia, which is a little community center that's just right in the shadow of the University of Arkansas up in Fayetteville. He was the Arkansas Razorbacks lead stringer for both the men's and women's teams. So he was very involved, never missed a match. He was kind of a surrogate player. I mean, he wasn't a player, but surrogate team member. He knew all the guys, strung all the rackets. And then he also had a pest control business. He had a degree in entrepreneurship. So he was quite a Renaissance man, super sensitive and also had substance use disorder. So I'm, I'm, I'm getting up with the technology. He died of a fentanyl poisoning, not an overdose. Um, he was clean the last 2 years of his life. Um, there were almost 300 people at his funeral, and a lot of them didn't even know he had had a drug problem. He had totally cleaned himself up his last 2 years. He'd gone through drug court, he'd gotten sober, um, and was really living his best life. And as far as we know, He, um, that this was one of the first times that he used drugs since he'd been clean for 2 years. And, um, he was sold fentanyl, not heroin. And, um, so that was, that was what, what killed him, what had his form die, his body die, obviously not his spirit.

Yeah. So, and when was that that he passed?

It was February 2nd, 2022. 2-2-22. I should have known he would pick an auspicious date.

Oh, wow. That's really wild. Wow. So I just want to ask you something. You said fentanyl poisoning, not overdose. I want to just make sure I'm up on the language because I hadn't heard that before. So is that the correct term now, is poisoning?

Yeah. So an overdose is often thought like it's intentional, like somebody overdoses intentionally or they take too much. In Rob's case, he didn't even know what he was taking. And that's what's happening to so many of these kids is that they think they're taking whatever drug, um, which, which would not have killed him. I mean, had he taken heroin, you know, if he had had— if he was sold what he thought he was buying, it would not have killed him. But, and you know, the, the problem with all this— I don't know if counterfeit's the right word, but you know, the, this, um, unsolicited, you know, the, the fentanyl that's not monitored by the pharmaceutical companies, it's like you think of a chocolate chip cookie and you get a chocolate chip cookie, and one cookie might have 20 chips, and one cookie might have 3, and one bite might have 3 chips, and another bite might have 8 chips, and you just don't know what you're getting. And that was what they believed happened with Rob. Um, you know, it was— there was actually on his autopsy, there was no heroin, so he wasn't sold heroin at all. And the drug dealer did get convicted to 38 years in prison with no chance of parole. So it's very gratifying that he is off of the streets. Um, But, um, you know, you just, you just don't know. You know, they, they're poisoned. It's like giving them a substance they don't know they're taking.

And so I'm glad that we, I'm glad that we had this conversation because I think it's really important for people to understand that. We know that so many people are dying of fentanyl, and, um, and, you know, someone might say, well, why would anybody take that? And most of the people are dying from it don't know they're taking it. And it's being used to lace other things or being sold as something else. And it's highly sensitive to dosage. Anything's poison in the right dosage. And with fentanyl, it just takes a very, very small amount to kill people. So that's— hopefully we've educated some people today as to why this is happening.

Yeah, you're absolutely right, Brian. Absolutely. 100%. 100%. It's not— these kids aren't— well, I'm sure some are going, oh, I want a fentanyl pill, but most of them think they're buying something else and then it's laced with fentanyl.

Yeah. So I know that, um, I saw that we have something in common. You were raised in a religious home. I was raised— my grandfather was my pastor. I know your father was, was a preacher. So what were your beliefs, um, coming growing up? What were your— what were you taught in your home?

Um, I was taught God was a man, um, and God was stern, and God was watching me. Not always necessarily to find what I was doing good, but to keep tabs on me. My dad was a UCC minister, which is a pretty liberal religion. And when I was in college, I write about this in the book, Shirley MacLaine's book Out on a Limb came out, and I thought, oh, my dad's going to flip about this, talking about reincarnation and all this stuff. And I went to my dad and he was like, yeah, I believe in that. And I was like, really? Um, but that came in college. Um, you know, so for my formative years, it was really just a pretty traditional religious upbringing, very involved in the church, you know, youth group on Wednesday nights, there all day Sunday. You know, my mom was very involved as the pastor's wife, so our life really revolved around church and, um, and religion. Those are— that was my social circle. You know, it was, it was really the center of our life.

Yeah. So when Chelsea transitioned, did your beliefs change at all then? Or did they evolve at that point?

Yeah, that was really the start, I believe, of my spiritual awakening. And again, of course, I would have had no way to have any idea at the time. But from this aerial view, looking back now, I see that That was what started me so that I could be in this place for what was coming. Yeah. I'll never forget our pastor. So she died in Minneapolis at the bone marrow transplant. We came home and we met with our pastor, and I remember him saying, well, she's in a better place now. And I just remember I looked over at my husband and my husband goes, the best place she ever was was sitting on my knee. And I thought, oh, I'm so glad he said that, because, you know, we all know. I mean, if you're on this podcast, you're, you're you know, obviously had a loss. And, you know, people say things that they think are going to be helpful, and sometimes they're just not, you know. But for me, it just started to expand. And I had a really cool experience with Chelsea. I don't— I'll move so you can see this picture of white stones above my head. When Chelsea— after she died, I started finding white stones everywhere I went, just random white stones. And it was I mean, in the oddest places. And so I started picking them up, and I didn't know what they meant, but I knew that they were a message from Chelsea. And we started going to the Unity Church in Sedona, and we had gone to a traditional Presbyterian church before that. My husband's a dentist, and I mean, I just love how spirit works because he had, like, 7 patients from the Unity Church come to his dental practice. And he's like, I have these patients, and they're so positive, and they're so kind and loving, and they all go to this Unity Church in Sedona. Why don't we go check it out? And I was, you know, I was just floundering. I was such a mess, as is expected after you lose a child. And so we went to the Unity Church and there was a guest pastor. It was a woman. I wouldn't know her if she walked in the room. And she was preaching on the story of David and Goliath. And she said, you know, most of us know that in the story, Goliath represents huge obstacles in our lives, things that are insurmountable. Maybe it's a health crisis or a financial challenge. The end of a relationship, maybe it's the death of someone that you deeply love. And we know that David represents that underdog spirit within all of us, that, that part of us that knows that we can do and achieve and be so great. And then she said, but what nobody talks about are the smooth white stones that David used to slay Goliath. And I'll tell you, the hair on the back of my neck just stood up, and I knew in that moment that what she was going to share weren't words that she'd written for that congregation. I knew it was my message from Chelsea. She was talking to me through this woman. And she said, those smooth white stones represent our ability to slay any giant, overcome any obstacle, and create a life that we love living. Wow. And I will tell you, I walked out of that church. I started to bawl. I mean, I didn't know anybody there. I mean, I just— I mean, I got hysterical. I had to leave. I mean, it was like, okay, Chelsea, I've got it. And what's interesting is it was that experience that really set me on the path of happiness. You know, I've been a happiness speaker in the media. I'm known as the Happiness Speaker. And I've said for years, I have the best job in the world. I get to fly all over the country and make people happy. And, and that was kind of what propelled me into going like, how do we become genuinely happy? How do we find happiness after loss? And it shifted my whole, my whole life, my whole career. Which is pretty cool that that all happened in a church. Yeah, yeah. Brian, I don't know if you get this, but people will say to me, you know, I'll explain that I have connected with my son on the other side, we've written a book together. And people will go, are you Christian? And I think, yeah, yes. Like, I love how you said, I think even in the introduction, they can stand side by side. Yes. I believe in God even more than I did before this whole experience, you know. It's just an expanded view of God. It's an expanded view of spirit. It's an expanded view of the universe. If anything, it's, it's made the God that I love even grander and more magnificent, because that God can encompass everything that we as humans are experiencing. That God can hold it all. That God can deal with my anger, that God can deal with my tears, that God can deal with my love, that God is so big that there's nothing that God can't handle.

Yeah, I'm very glad that you said that. And, and, um, yeah, it's really interesting that dichotomy that people try to place between being a Christian and spirituality. And it's funny, some of the things that you mentioned. Um, I grew up in a Pentecostal church, so I grew up with a very judgmental God, male, sitting on the throne, always watching you, waiting for you to screw up. And, and by the way, the rapture was coming at any time, and so if you were doing the wrong thing when the rapture came, you were not— you're not going to be raptured, you'd be left behind. So if you were in a movie theater, um, you know, God— Jesus is not coming. If you're in a bar— I don't know why they told 8-year-olds about bars, but they're like, if you're in a bar, Jesus is not coming in a bar to get you, so make sure you're in the right place when it comes. So that's what I grew up with. And then I found UCC, United Church of Christ. And then the last church I went to was a Unity Church. And when you mentioned white stones, I thought about the white stone ceremony that they have at the church, which is— they do it, I think it's New Year's. Where everybody writes a word on their stone. You get a word. So yeah, I could relate to, to everything you were saying. Now, I don't identify as a Christian anymore, um, only because of all the baggage that Christianity carries with it— that, that God that's judgmental, the God that killed his own son, you know, that kind of stuff. And it just became too much. I always found myself saying, I'm a Christian, but— I'm a Christian, but— so I'm finally just like, yeah, I'm not a Christian. I do still believe in God. But as you said, a very expanded view of God. I think the God that a lot of people hold on to is just, is way too small. And so that's why I had to, I moved away from that terminology personally. But it's funny, I was speaking yesterday to a group, and I find myself quoting the Bible all the time. I'm quoting Jesus all the time. And I'm still saying, I'm saying this, but because sometimes people get upset, why are you quoting the Bible? You know, this is not supposed to be a religious thing. I'm like, I still think there's a lot of good stuff in the Bible. I think Jesus was, was, is a great teacher. I think Jesus is a master. I just don't hold on to some of those other beliefs.

Gosh, Brian, I just want to honor you for that. It almost makes me a little bit emotional because it is— for those of us that have gone through this traumatic, horrible loss, come out on the other side, and we're trying to make our way through it, it, through the unimaginable um, and then to feel like we're being judged, often by people who haven't been through this huge trauma. Um, it's, it's a beautiful conversation to have, and I honor that you put that out there so gently, um, but also forthrightly. And almost makes me think, well, maybe I need to revisit that. But, um, you know, I guess it's just I, I feel like I, I can call myself a Christian when I when I could, and given the freedom to honor the God that is the God that I believe in.

Yeah. And I didn't remember— I didn't find UCC until I was in my 40s probably, and then Unity even later than that. So I didn't know that those things were options. And, and it wasn't until I really started studying— for example, I looked at all the biblical history and stuff, and I found the early church was universalist for like the first 500 years. That, you know, most of the people— that was the prevailing Christianity. It wasn't, it wasn't this judgmental stuff. So I learned a lot about it, and I've been able to redeem a lot of that. But again, just because of some of the other stuff, I don't, I don't— I just don't have to use that language anymore. But I still tell people I'm a disciple of Jesus, you know, I still follow Jesus, you know. But I also studied Buddhism and Hinduism and Kabbalah. And I remember when I was going to one of the churches here locally And I would leave church and I would go do yoga. And I loved, like, the feeling I got in church. I love the feeling I got in yoga. One of my friends goes, oh, you shouldn't do yoga. You're worshiping false gods and you're open. What happens when you open up your mind? You know, when you open your mind, demons can come in. I said, well, if I could open my mind and demons can come in, then maybe the Holy Spirit could come in too, you know? So I, I just— that kind of, that kind of thinking kind of just drove me away from it.

So yeah. I understand. And I think it's beautiful that you can claim that so eloquently and gently and not, not judgmentally. And not, not from a place of ego. It just, I can just feel from your heart. That's just where you've landed. And it's beautiful.

Yeah, well, thanks. So let's get back to you. So when you, you know, you, so you went after Chelsea passed and remind me, were you a happiness speaker before she passed? That was after?

Okay, that's why I thought Yeah, I had been a schoolteacher and then I had 4 kids under the age of 5. I had my kids in stair-step fashion. And so when she got sick, I had quit teaching. And then after she got sick, I just stayed at home. And that was when I kind of went down the wormhole of happiness, like, okay, all right, this is where I am. And I'd always been a happy person. My friends all called me Mary Poppins. I was like, spot, what are we going to do today? So it was, you know, I, I just, I kind of became obsessed with, like, and I wanted the science. I'm a little bit of a research geek. So I, like, wanted the, one of the deets. I wanted the, you know, the real, the research behind it. Like, how do we get to happiness? And, and I feel so blessed that, and that's like I told you, I'm speaking in Ohio next month. You know, I love that I still get to share that message of happiness. And I share about both Rob and Chelsea from the stage.

Yeah, that's— I think that's great, because one of the things I found a lot of people in that early part of grief is we feel like happiness is impossible. It's like it's so far out of the realm of possibility that we're like, we don't even think about it. And then the other thing I'd like for maybe you address is like sometimes people feel guilty. Um, I shouldn't be happy because my child is, is dead.

Stay with us. We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief? Most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me, and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there.

Yeah, that both of those things are so, are so legitimate. Um, you know, when Rob first died, I remember I was talking to one of my friends and I said, um, how am I— like, I— like, my— not— it's not just this. I'm like, I've just lost my career. You know, this was maybe a month after. I'm like, I get— you know, I, I had to— so I was actually on my way home from my first speaking engagement since COVID my first live engagement since COVID When I got the news that Rob had died. I was in a hotel room by myself in Charlotte, North Carolina. It was horrible. And I remember, like, weeks later, I just remember thinking, you know, not only has my world been shattered, but my career. I'm like, how do I be the happiness speaker when my child just died? I canceled everything on my books for the next year, and I went into what I call the belly of the whale again. Another you know, Jonah and the whale, another Bible reference. Sure. And I just went deep. I did my grief work. I got certified in the Grief Recovery Method. I went through coaching with a woman to do it. And I was so impressed with the work that I went and got certified as a grief recovery specialist. I journaled, and of course, I connected with Rob then about a month after he died. And, and I remember I said to a friend, like, how, how will I ever be the happiness speaker again? And she just looked at me and she said, Kim, Who better than you? And I just remember, like, I thought, oh yeah, okay, not now. I got to go heal. But yeah, my story is going to only get stronger because if I can still be happy after losing two children, then I am going to be proof to people. You know, I love, like, when the first man ran a 4-minute mile that did— or 5-minute mile. They didn't think it could ever be done. And then within two weeks, like, four other people did it.

Yeah.

Because once it's done, then we go, oh, yeah, I can do that. And I'll talk to mamas and they'll be like, I want what you have. And I'm like, there's a way. There's a way through. And, yeah, I can remember in the first months when I would have those glimpses of happiness, there would be a little part of me that would be like, oh, my God, is this okay? This is where I've lived most of my life, in the happy zone. And it's like, oh. You know, is it— am I dishonoring Rob by going back there? I swear he's sitting right here in his picture. I swear he just winked at me. I saw his picture wink like, yeah, Mama, you're not dishonoring me. You go, girl. And, and then, you know, when I got to connect with Rob and he shared so deeply, like, that's, that's our purpose. Our purpose down here is to grow and to live and to love and to laugh and embrace all of the stuff, the good and the bad. I mean, as he says, from, from their perspective up there, there is no good and bad. You know, he's like, it's just, it's all good. It's all here to help us grow, every bit of it.

Wow. So yeah, it's, you know, it's— thanks for sharing that. And I think it's really important that people understand, because I always, when I'm speaking to people, it's been 10 years for me since my daughter passed away, and I'm like, I didn't get to where I am like overnight, you know. And when people talk to me about happiness, as people talk to me about joy or something like that, I would, I would literally get angry. I'm like, don't even talk to me about that. So you did, you took this time, you canceled your speaking game and you took time to heal before you came back to doing what you do. So it's all in time, right?

Yeah. And I didn't speak for 2 years, you know, professionally. And, and I started out speaking again by speaking. I've gone to the prisons, I've gone to sober living houses. You know, I've kind of— I thought, well, this is where I'll start putting myself back out there. And I still do that. I did it just 2 weeks ago and it it's so gratifying, you know? And I love, you know, I come in and I'm all happy, happy, happy. And I don't share about Rob until about 45 minutes into my hour presentation. And when all those— it was like last couple of weeks ago was a men's sober living house. And then when I talk about Rob and I'm like, I showed this really cute video clip of him. And then I say, you know, 2 months after this was taken, he was found dead in his home from a fentanyl overdose. And it's like you can just hear a pin drop. They're like, oh my God. Gush, you know. So, um, it's— I love— that's, that's my, that's my pro bono work. That's my heart work that I love to go give back to those communities who really need the message of hope and happiness.

Yeah, absolutely. So, um, after Chelsea passed, you got, you got into the happiness thing. What about your— and you mentioned you started growing, or you were growing spiritual, not started, but you were growing spiritually then. Did you have connections with Chelsea, or was it, was it when Rob passed you started having connections with the other side?

It was when Rob passed. And I think, obviously, I know now that would have been available to me, but I didn't have that level of belief. And I was in such a different place, having had 30 years where I started going to Unity, which is, again, just really opened my mind to that God can be so much bigger and that and that there's, you know, there's so— there's just so much out there that when we keep ourselves, you know, I don't want to say— and when we keep ourselves restricted to just a very linear set of beliefs, we miss out on a lot. And I had a friend who goes to a very traditional kind of fundamentalist church, and I gave her the book.. And she sent me a picture of her sitting on an airplane crying. She's also a speaker, and she was traveling somewhere, and she was crying. And then she left me this voicemail, and she said, Kim, this book is touching me in places that I didn't even know existed. She said, I don't— it's not— I'm not, I'm not going to abandon the beliefs I believed all my life. But all I can do right now is just set those aside, because everything that Rob is saying in this book is ringing absolutely true to my heart. She's like, I can feel it. I know. She's like, it's like spirit. She's like, I get it. And she's like, I don't know what I'm going to do about it, but thank you for sharing the book. She was one of my beta readers.

Yeah, I just had to laugh when you said that. When people say it's like spirit, because it's like, okay, this is what the Bible is supposed to be all about, right? The survival of consciousness, spirit, the fact that we go on, et cetera. But then, and this is where I have my issues with, with some religions, then they close people off to say, but not that. You can do this, but not that. You can't speak with the dead. That's, that's Satan. And I still get that sometimes in some of my YouTube videos. People are like, oh, this person's been deceived by Satan because they, they thought they had a near-death experience and they, they said they thought saw an angel, but it was really, it's really, you know, Lucifer dressed up. And I'm that just keeps people so restricted. And they can't have— and, and like you said earlier, it's really interesting. We— I don't think we can have that connection until we believe we can have that connection. So we, as you said, we don't know we even have it available to us. And I didn't know until after Shayna passed. And I've found an organization called Helping Parents Heal and started, you know, realizing that, yeah, not only when we die do we get to go to heaven, and it's beautiful place up in the sky, and one day we'll all be there. But our loved ones are still available to us now. And that message, I think it really set a lot of people free in the moment.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, so after Rob and I had been connecting for about a year, he— I had— I don't know what to call it except a waking dream. I— my daughter was here spending the night, and we were going to get up and have coffee. My kids all tease me because I'm sound sensitive. I mean, I swear I have heard a squirrel in a tree be 10 feet away from my window with the windows closed and earplugs in. I mean, I have like supersonic hearing.

Yeah.

And so we were gonna get up and have coffee the next morning before she had to go. And I wake— I got up like at 4 o'clock to go to the bathroom. And I thought, oh, I probably won't even go back to sleep. And all of a sudden, I woke up at 7. And I go out and she's already gone. So I called her and I said, where are you? And she's like, oh, she was renovating a house here in our town. And so she said, I'm over here working on the house. And We made plans for lunch, got off the phone, and I went in my room and I have a picture of Rob sitting on my dresser and I opened my blinds and I was bop Rob on the nose and say good morning. So I bop Rob on the nose, I say good morning. And it was like a wave washed over me and I literally fell to my knees and I just began sobbing because I remembered my dream from the night before. And he had come to me and he looked so good. Rob was just such a cool dude. He loved clothes. He loved polo. He had on this mint green polo shirt and these khaki pants, and his hair was perfect because, you know, he went to jail 3 or 4 times. So in jail they'd shave his head and then he'd let it grow long. And, you know, I can always tell by the pictures, oh, he must have recently gotten out of jail then. Oh, he, he'd been clean for a while there. But I mean, he just looked fantastic. And we sat there in 2 chairs and we held hands and we talked. And he said, you know, Mom, I just want to tell you I have really big news to share with you. There are things that we're going to do together, and I just need you to know you need to work with me. It's all going to be okay. And I was like, okay, you know, and oh my God, I got to give him that last hug I'd never gotten to give him. And, um, in fact, it's interesting, we're talking so much about church. The last place I ever saw Rob was church. He was such a unicorn because here he was, cool dude, you know, he loved to party, but he also, he served on our church property committee. He'd hang the banners, he'd wash the sidewalks, he helped feed the homeless, you know. So he had this huge spirit. So, and that was a Presbyterian church because our town didn't have a, um, Unity Church. So, um, he, um, uh, I got to give him a hug. So he said, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, we're gonna do some stuff together. So I immediately run out to the living room because I always, when I connect with Rob, I sit in one chair. It used to be his chair. And I just opened the computer and I'm like, what's going on? And he shared with me that that he was going to give me a system to teach other moms how to connect with their children the same way we had. Now, at this point, there were just a handful of people in my life that even knew I was connecting with Rob, because, you know, when you're talking to people and you'll go, oh, I talked to Rob and he said da da da da, and then they just kind of sit back and look at you like you're a little crazy. And, um, so I, I really, I just quit telling people. And in fact, my own family, my own kids, would I be like, oh, last week Rob said. And my kids would just kind of look at me like, oh, mom's losing it, you know? So I was keeping it really close to my chest. And when he said, I'm going to give you a system to help other moms, I said, oh, thanks, but no thanks, buddy. You have done enough for me already. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I speak on corporate stages. I've spoken for Walmart and Toyota. I go into associations and companies and I'm like, I am not going to be the woman that also raises her hand and says, oh, And I can help you talk to your dead kid. And he's, you know, he was— he's as persistent on the other side as he was on this side. And he's like, yeah, you are going to do it. And I just— it took him like a week. And what finally got me was he said, you know, Mom, he's like, you talk about the veil, you know, crossing the veil. And he said, I am meeting all these kids over here, very similar to me. And he said, they are pounding on the veil. Trying to talk to their mom. They're pounding on the veil. He said, how much sound does it make if you pound on a veil? He said, their moms just can't hear them. Well, he said, so I am going to— I'm going to give you the system. We're just going to connect them. And he said, this works for anybody. It's not mediumship. It's not like I couldn't connect with Shayna. I can't connect with anybody else's child. I can't do a reading for somebody. This is just a system for you to connect with somebody you loved. Rob has said there's more books coming, there's more classes coming. And I have just said, buddy, buddy, buddy, put on the brakes, man. Like, you have turned my world upside down and Mama's got to breathe here. Let me just acclimate to this. So we started with moms. So my website's messagesformoms.com, and it's been great. The moms are connecting with their kids. They're getting answers to their questions, which is so healing. I mean, we all want to know, are they okay? Why did it happen? You know, what are they doing over there? Are they still connected to us? Are they watching over us? You know, all those things that, that we want to know. And, and I will tell you, and I want every listener to hear this. Rob said, Mom, anybody can connect with anybody on the other side. They just don't know it or believe it. But nobody needs to take this class from you. Everybody has that availability. And I say at my first class, I'm like, if you get off of this and I have built your level of belief that you can do this to the point where tomorrow morning you're talking to your kid, I will give you your money back and we will celebrate you. Because you don't— nobody needs a class to connect. We all have that. Just like me, I didn't know I could until I did.. Right. And once I got the belief, now I know anybody, they're all available to us. And Rob has given me a really cool system that takes people step by step to help build that belief and give them some tools along the way so that they can ease into it. And those weeks when the mamas get the breakthrough and they finally connect, oh, it's just like the best thing in the world to see the tears come. And the, the messages start to flow. And just that, you know, getting, you know, we all talk to our kids again. I talk to him every day now. You know, I used to, I did it all through typing, I did it all through writing, but now it's just like, man, he's just right there with me all the time. And it's beautiful.

That's awesome.

And I love, yeah, and I love helping parents heal and what they stand for. I've done a guest, um, I've been a guest on a few of the Helping Parents Heal affiliate group meetings, and I do a beautiful process to help with, um, pulling our four bodies back together. And that is such a beautiful organization. I think it's wonderful. I think you're on the board, aren't you?

Yeah, yeah, I'm on the board.

Yeah, that's— oh, that's beautiful, Brian. That's beautiful.

So I, I know you had the dream with Rob. What was your first communication with him like? And did it— that wasn't your first one, I assume. So, uh, what was it like? And Did it surprise you? Tell me about it.

Um, yeah, so I feel like I'm being a little storyteller here. I keep telling stories, but there's— I think they're such cool stories. Yeah. Um, so I had a friend who knew Rob really well. She's one of my best friends. We lived in the same neighborhood and we would walk all the time. So she knew all about Rob's challenges when he was using. And then he sprayed her house for pests and mosquitoes. So she saw him, you know, with mosquitoes every 3 weeks. Weeks, and, you know, once a, once a month the rest of the year. And so she knew Rob really well. She's also a very gifted psychic. She doesn't do it professionally, but she has known since she was 4 that she can communicate with, with beings on the other side. And I mean, I had never had any need for that. So I mean, I knew that was something she did, but it wasn't really part of our relationship. Well, as soon as Rob came through, he started communicating with her And again, Rob's just such a cool dude. And he, he wouldn't shut up. Like, he just kept talking. Like, sometimes she'd call me twice a day. She'd be like, I don't mean to bother you. And I would just be like, oh my God, I'm so excited when I see your name on my caller ID because I know why you're calling, because it's something— it's a message from Rob. And so she was giving me all these messages. And one day, I mean, I was kind of feeling a little bit pissed off, like, okay, it's great you can talk to him, but I'd really like to talk to him, right? You know? And I just said to her, I said, I'm like, thank you so much for all these messages. But I said, I kind of would like to talk to him direct. And she said, open your computer tomorrow morning and he'll be there. And I don't know if it was just I so believed in her. I don't know if it was Rob giving her the words I needed at just that moment for it all to land. But he had been waiting in the wings for a month, probably waiting for me just to get to a place where I could think because I was, I was such a mess after he died. I mean, I did. I've never cried more tears in my life over anything. So that next morning, I got my little cup of decaf coffee. I got in the chair that was Rob's chair. And behind it, I have a painting that he had hanging in his apartment. So that was like, that was my little nest. And that's where I would get up and journal and stuff in the mornings. And I had been doing that for a while. And so that morning, I just opened my computer, the one, the one we're, we're on right now. And I said, you know, Rob, I was told if I started typing, you'd be here. And Brian D Smith, it was like this invisible force took over my hands. And it was like, he always called me Mamacita. He was like, hey, I'm so glad you're here. And it went for like 3 hours. I did not move. I didn't get up to pee. I didn't get up to refill my coffee cup because I didn't know if this was one and done. You know, I'm like, this is it. Wow. So, I mean, he just And then, you know, I would come and I would ask questions. Like, one of the first questions I asked him was, why did you start doing drugs? You know? And then it was like, you know, I was just— I mean, it was everything. It was just— it just went on. Then the next morning, and I knew, and this is something I teach in the class, like, I knew when he was done. I knew when he was gone. It's so interesting how it's palpable when he comes in and it's palpable when he leaves. And I have some tools that I really use to help people figure out when they're connected and when they're not. And so then I just started the next morning. I got up and the next morning he was there for like 2 or 3 minutes. It was just boom, boom, boom, quick, quick, quick. And then he was out again. And then, you know, and then it just— it wasn't every single morning because, you know, especially in the beginning, it was so emotional. Like sometimes I was done for the day. We would connect and he would share information that was just so would so blow my mind that I couldn't just go back to our 3D world and start doing laundry and cooking dinner. I was like, just kind of like, I just would have to kind of let it all soak in. And so we would connect a few times a week. And then I remember at one point he didn't connect. He wasn't there for 2 weeks. And I thought, oh, this is all over. I'm like, oh, I thought this was going to go on forever. And then, but I would keep checking in. And then one morning he was there and I'm like, oh, bud, I'm so glad you're back. I thought maybe we were gone. And he's like, Mom, I am busy over here. And they had had that shooting in Uvalde.

Oh yeah.

And he said, he was like, I was over there helping those kids get to the light. They were so traumatized. They didn't know what had happened. I was helping the parents. He's like, you know, I'm busy over here too. I'm doing my work. And I just was like, that is so cool. I had, I hadn't really thought of that. That. But, you know, he's, he shared many times about all he's learned over there and the work that he does on that side. And his favorite thing is helping people to the light. So, wow. Wow.

That is amazing. So another thing I want to ask you about, because I know you talked about addiction, and you asked him why he started doing drugs. And a lot of us look at addiction, and there is there can't be a stigma to it. And I hate that. But you talked about addiction as maybe a spiritual, spiritual thing. So tell people what you mean by that.

Okay. Let me just say, number one, yes, there is a huge stigma. And I really want to bust that wide open because— and it's so interesting because I find the mamas that come to my course, a lot of them have lost their children either by drug overdose or suicide. And, you know, I've had mamas from everything, an illness, an accident. But, but there is a stigma with that. And, you know, it's— we talked a little bit about fentanyl poisoning. They also now call it substance use disorder because if you're— I mean, you call somebody an addict, that's like, you know, it's an I am statement. That's who you are, an addict. But they're not— nobody would choose to be an addict, right? It's, you know, it's— they have substance use disorder. And I have done so much research in the last 3 years about, you know, it is a legitimate medical thing. I mean, it is— there is a chemical or something in our body that gets triggered. It's not willpower. I mean, Rob did not want to be an addict. He was an athlete. He was a business owner. He tried everything in his power to get over drugs. He didn't want to be an addict. Um, and so, um, when I, when I asked him why he started doing drugs— and I want to— this is a layered question, so I want to talk about the drugs and then I want to talk about how it's a spiritual thing. Sure. Um, so when I asked him about why did you start doing drugs, he said, well, because I, I got to have fun, I got to party. He's like, if I had had an illness he's like, I would have lost my hair. I would have been sick all the time. And he said, you know, the drugs were just a part of my life. They didn't become my whole life. And often when people have an illness, you know, it becomes their whole life, their whole identity. And he said having drugs in it— I find this so interesting. When Rob was about 15, the YouTubers started, you know, making all this money. You know, you'd see an 18-year-old kid buying a $200,000 Maserati because their YouTube channel blew up. And he would always say, well, I'm going to retire by the time I'm 30. I'm going to retire by the time I'm 30. I bet I heard him say it a thousand times. He died the month before he turned 30. Oh wow. Yeah, he died in February. He would have turned 30 in March. Um, um, and so he said, the other thing, Mom, is that you lost Chelsea to an illness. You were in hospitals for months. There was all this medical stuff. And he said, I didn't— I didn't want you to have to go through that again. And he said, I knew I was going to die young. And so, you know, he said an accident would have been kind of senseless. It would have just been another thing that was in the paper. But he said, you're a speaker. You stand in front of thousands of people every year. And he said, I knew that you would be able to help with that stigma. And the work, when I get to stand in front of, you know, the men in prison the men in prison, 98% of them are there for drug-related charges.

Right.

You know, when I go to the sober living houses, when I speak at some of these conferences, it's, you know, it's— I feel like I do get to let go of that stigma because, you know, my family, I'm professional. My husband's a dentist. You know, he grew up in a great home. He was a great athlete, a great business owner. And he was still— he still, you know, struggled with substances. So there's no shame in that. I'm not ashamed. Of how Rob died. I remember when he died, somebody said to me, is it okay if we tell people how Rob died? I was like, yes, of course. It doesn't matter to me if he died of drugs or if he died in a car accident or whatever. I mean, what matters is he's not here. That, that's, that's not even— that doesn't even matter, you know? So, um, and then you asked— do you want to ask again? I feel like I'm talking too much.

No, go, no, go, keep going.

You asked how— so part of what Rob shared in the book is that when you think about it, a lot of the indigenous cultures have used substances for years for their spiritual awakening, peyote and ayahuasca. And I'm sure there's a lot I don't even know. And those drugs can be very mind-opening, done in a sacred proper way. And so, you know, I see, you know, Rob, Rob struggled some with his weight. I mean, he looks super fit, but, you know, he, he, I think, always felt a little bit chubby, you know, he'd say, oh, I got a dad bod. And, and so I think that he you know, he had some insecurities, as we all do, or at least everybody I've ever met has. And so I think the, the drugs and alcohol, you know, he shared how they're— it's kind of a two-edged sword because it can, it can allow you to numb out and just get to just sit in the corner and not have to participate, but it can also embolden you. It can also bring you out of your shell and let you be the life of the party. And so again, I think Rob, you know, when people really start to look at what those substances do for you, Rob learned a lot in his recovery about who he was and, and what he wanted out of life. And so, you know, when somebody suffers with substance use disorder or some kind of addiction, I think it can be a beautiful gateway to their spiritual opening.

Um, yeah, wow, that's really interesting. There's so much, so many layers to what, you know, what you said, because one of my things is I look at like so many of our, our celebrities, um, actors, singers, athletes who get into drugs, and I think, you know, a lot of times it's in these people that are sensitive souls, and I think they're— the pain of this world that a lot of us don't feel. People are really empathetic. It's like, it's— it can be too much. So that can help kind of numb that pain, not just their own personal pain, but just the pain of the world where, you know, there's a lot of stuff going on. And a really good point also about, you know, some of these plant medicines, um, and that's the term I like to use is plant medicine, because ayahuasca, peyote, and there's, and there's, you know, a number of other ones that people use as a gateway because our, our brains are kind of like— I look at them, they're like, we're they're like filters. They filter out spirit, and these things allow us to move into that. And they're finding out now microdoses of, um, of mushrooms and peyote and different things can help people achieve these spiritual highs. So I think sometimes people are kind of like, they're trying to do that, but we're doing it in a, what we call a recreational way, as opposed to— because here we don't really have— I think it's finally legal now to do ayahuasca in the U.S., but for a long time time, you couldn't even do that here. You had to go to another country to do it. So, uh, yeah, I think there's a lot more going on there than we realize. And the other thing you said that I think is really interesting, it's kind of like— sounds like he chose his exit. Like, this is how I'm going to go. I'm going to go out early. So these are, these are the different ways it could happen, and this happens to be like, oh, this is the best of, of all the worlds, of all the ones I could choose. Because a lot of times when our kids transition early, as parents who like, this is tragic, this is terrible, this is the worst thing ever. Are they being punished? Am I being punished? And it sounds to me like, you know, Rob's like, okay, I'm going out early, might as well go out in a good way.

Yeah, might as well go out having fun. That was my boy. He lit up a room when he walked into it.

Yeah. And it's funny because my daughter— Shane was 15 when she passed— and I remember she was about 10, because we used to always talk to her about like, Shayna, you can't keep eating the way you do. She loves sugar. She would eat nothing but sugar 24 hours a day if we had let her, you know. We said, Shayna, you're going to weigh 400 pounds and have no teeth if you don't get some control over yourself before— and but when she was 10, she goes, I don't want to grow up, you know. She started crying. She said, I don't, I don't want to— her sister's 3 years older— I don't want to get boobs. I don't want to, you know, do that. I don't want to do all this stuff. She wanted to be a kid. I was like, Shayna, you're not Peter Pan. You're going to have to grow up. And she transitioned at 15 and a half. So sometimes our kids, they kind of tell us in, in some ways, like, I'm not going to be here for a long time.

Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful. And, you know, I don't think Rob had any conscious knowledge of that when he was on the planet. I'm sure Shannon didn't either.

No, no.

But, but in retrospect, when he could come back and communicate with me, he could share, you know, his soul soul knew, oh, here are my choices. And so my soul made that choice. And, you know, and I'm, I'm really in a lot of ways grateful that it wasn't a medical thing. That would have been so— it would have been triggering, you know. We did all that with Chelsea. And he's right. And I— that's for me, like, when he started coming through to me, of course I'd never had an experience like this. I had grown up in the church, even the Unity Church, but I'd never— I mean, I'd never never dreamed I would be like having outright conversations with my son. And, um, he would share these things and I would know it couldn't just be my imagination because it was concepts that like had never occurred to me. Yeah, you know, I'd be like, well, this isn't me because this is nowhere in this brain. This is something I've never even considered, you know.

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So Kim, um, we talked a little bit about— I know that you have a course that people can take, and some they can find at your website. So tell me what the course is like, and also tell people what they can find in your book.

Okay, um, I'll start with the course because that's an easier question. Um, the course is, um, it's 6 to 7 weeks. Um, there's a couple little variables there. Um, mamas get a really cool— I call it a connection toolkit. I had a One of my really good friends does essences. And so we created a special essence to just help moms, flower essence to help moms connect. And they get some different tools that ship to their house. And then we start, and it's a course that builds on itself. So we start the first week really gently connecting. We find our, you know, our sacred spot in our home. I called it your golden spot, like where you're going to connect because you want to build the energy there, um, of that connection. The next week, um, we do a process that's so beautiful. And this is what I've been doing in the Helping Parents Heal meetings. Um, is it's called the Pieces of You. And, you know, we get traumatized, we're traumatized when we lose a child, and often our body fragments. Fragments because we can't, we can't, if we fully let in the enormity of the loss, I don't think we could bear it. I think we just disintegrate. And so our bodies fragment, and we, and there's a lot of, of science behind, we have an emotional, mental, spiritual, and physical body. Obviously, we're all familiar with the physical, but we do a really cool process to bring all those back in together. And then we open up the channel of connection with our child on the other side. And you, you to spend 5 to 10 minutes a day in between. I had a mama who signed up for the course and she didn't show up for the first 4 weeks and 3 weeks. So I reached out to her and she's like, oh, I'm going to be home this weekend. I'm going to catch up. It's not that kind of course. You got to, you got to, you know, you got to play as you go. So you, you, it's really experiential. And really, you're not even expected to connect with your child until week 4 or 5 because it's a process of building and it's a process of monitoring and are you connected, are you not connected. And so, you know, by the end, and I've found, you know, some mamas just have, they just want some questions answered. They just want to know why did it happen the way it did? Are you okay? You know, then that mama's good. Some mamas want ongoing communication, you know, all the time. I, you know, I kind of, I think one of my next courses would be like how to have your child be a guide. Like, Rob's kind of one of my guides. He's stepping into a different place, not just like giving me information, but really helping me from a higher tier to live life differently. Um, and, um, yeah, and then once a month I do a free where we open up the channel of connection. Anybody that's taken the class class so we can connect. I don't have a community. I know you mentioned at the beginning of your podcast you can go over and do that. I am so bad on social media and with technology. The thought of doing that's just overwhelming, but that might come at some point. Um, but the class is, is really, um, yeah, it's, it's very transformational. And whatever, whatever a mama wants, I think she, she gets, you know what I mean? Like, not everybody's going to end up going and writing a book with their kid like I did, um, but that, that channel can definitely be opened where you can communicate and get what you need. My whole thing is it's just what, what we need to heal, because I don't think I could be in the place I am now, you know, just 3 years later, and, you know, without, without all this assurance from Rob that he was okay and this was how it was meant to be and nothing was— this wasn't out of order. This wasn't— he didn't die too soon, you know. This was exactly, exactly his soul's contract and his life's journey, and it was perfect just the way it was. There was nothing wrong. There was nothing out of step. Um, and just— and I mean, I— that's not— those aren't words I say. I viscerally feel that in every cell of my body. I know his life was perfect. His life was beautiful. His life was exactly what it was meant to be. He didn't die one day too soon. He didn't die one day too late. He went exactly when he was supposed to go. And that, that brings me so much peace. Now, don't get me wrong, I still, you know, sat and sobbed like a baby on his birthday this year, March 25th. I was a mess the whole dang day. I didn't— I I couldn't do anything. I cried all day long. So it doesn't mean that I don't still miss him, right? Even though I understand.

But yeah, you know, yeah, I'm glad you said because both those things can be true at the same time. I feel, I feel the same way. And, you know, with Shayna, I still miss her all the time. And we're coming up, you know, some anniversaries seem to be different than others. And I'm coming up on 10, 10 years, and she was 15. So it's like, it's, this is going to be a tough one for me. I, and I know that now, and it's— we have two, a little bit over two months until we get there. Um, so that's your, that's your, your course. And tell people, let's talk more about what's, what's in your book.

Okay, so this is the funniest thing. My book is coming out May 15th, and I just found out yesterday morning my cover designer, who had everything to design the COVID for a month, um, she reached out to me yesterday and said her father's gotten ill and she had quit. So I don't have a book cover right now, and I'm kind of messing with the title a little bit. So all I can tell people to go do is go to messagesformoms.com. If you're a man, at the very bottom of the page you can sign up. And, um, on April 15th I'm launching— the, the manuscript's done. So on, on April 15th I'm launching a book launch team, and people can sign up to be on the book launch team, and they'll get the book for free. They'll get the PDF of it, um, for free. So that if, if you go sign up, you'll be invited to join the book launch team on April 15th. Um, the book is uncensored conversations between Rob and I. We hit on everything from death to marriage to friendship to jealousy, um, everything you can imagine. I mean, he left no stone unturned. Um, there's a few swear words in it because he was a 29-year-old dude. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, uh, um, and, um, it's, it's really profound and life-changing. And I thought my mind was pretty open, but when I read what he shares in the book, it has, I feel like, structurally changed me. I had another really cool experience. The editor was an older Jewish woman, generationally, you know, in the Jewish faith. And when she handed off my manuscript, how she had done her editing part, we got real quiet. And she said, I have to, I have to tell you something. And I said, what? And she said, Kim, you know, I've been Jewish, you know, I was raised Jewish my whole life. And she said, this book is really making me reevaluate so many of the things that I have believed my whole life. And I just started bawling. I thought, oh my gosh, if this can land for somebody, I don't want to change anybody's beliefs, but if it can open their mind, you know, it's changed how she thinks about, you know, losing her dad and that, you know, maybe, maybe, you know, maybe he's not just gone forever. And that's— I just want people to know we— they're still here, they're still around, you can still have a relationship with them. And that is so much peace. It just looks different. Rob wanted the book to be called I Didn't Die, I Just Changed Form and a Bunch of Other Shit We Have All Mixed Up. And I'm like, buddy, I'm like, I honor that title and I'm not using it because I, uh, you know, I just— I— and I, I'm And yeah, I, I love it. I love it. I honor it, Rob, but I just can't go there myself. So he's— I'm like, it's a book from both of us. You're up there, I'm down here.

Compromise on it, right? It's not all about Rob. It's, it's—

yeah.

So yeah, that's, that's great. And, um, so people can go to your website, and, and by the time— actually, by the time this comes out, uh, the book will probably be out, or will be very shortly. So you can find out the name of the book and get the book there. Sounds fascinating. I can't wait to, to wait to get it myself. Um, and so any last words you'd like to share before we wrap up today?

Oh my goodness. Well, I just want to extend huge gratitude to you for inviting me to be here. I really am so grateful. Thank you. Um, and I'm, I'm amazed by how much we have in common. We didn't know each other that well before, and now I feel like we'll be friends forever.

I've got to show you this. This is, um, This is what I hold when I'm doing my interviews. So it's white stone.

I love it, Brian. You know, those two kids brought us together. Shayna and Rob orchestrated this.

Oh, absolutely. When you were talking about— yeah, well, you've talked— you spoke with Helping Parents Heal. We know it's our kids that are orchestrating, you know, everything. So absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, just— I want to thank you for the opportunity. And I also— when you go on my website, Messages for Moms, there's a way that people can go on there. You go to chat, um, there's a little section, chat with me or something. And, um, if anybody has questions about the course or if they just want a place to be able to talk about their child, you know, I, I've had mamas just reach out to me and they're like, I just, I can't say my kid's name without people getting all flustered, you know. I mean, Shana, Shana, Shana, Shana, Shana, you know, Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob. Let's say it. So if, you know, if they just, if they even just want to connect with me on any level, and I do the grief coaching too, you know, they can, they're welcome to reach out to me. I would love to connect with anybody. This is my heart work. And so, yeah, great. Well, thank you for letting me be here.

Thanks for what you do. Thanks for being here today. Yeah, well, enjoy the rest of the afternoon.

All right. Thank you. Bye, everyone. ¡Gracias!

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