Grief and Spiritual Signs From Loved Ones with Shining Light Mother Pam Grout EP 327

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Hey, welcome to another episode of Grief 2 Growth. This is a podcast that looks at the intricacies of the human experience from the sorrows of depths of sorrows, I should say, to the peaks of joy and everything that lies in between. And so if If you're joining us for the first time, my name is Brian D Smith. I'm your host, and I'm here to offer you insights and companionship on this journey, this thing that we call life. Today we've got the great pleasure of, of welcoming Pam Grout. She's not just an accomplished writer, she's a beacon of creativity, and she's an explorer of life's unseen laws, which I'm really interested in talking to her about. She's the number one New York Times bestselling author of 20 books. Including the transformative E-Squared and The Course in Miracles Experiment. Her work transcends the written word, though. She invites readers to experiment with the energy that actually creates our reality. Her voice has graced the pages of top publications, sharing insights and adventures that span from the scientific to the spiritual. She's the visionary behind the TV series Going Rogue and runs two widely followed blogs, where her wit and her wisdom shine through. And in addition to her literary genius, her heart is dedicated to the 222 Foundation, which is a tribute to her daughter Tasmin, who continues to inspire and guide her from beyond the physical realm. For those of you like me, understand that love and connection transcends all boundaries. I think Pam's journey is going to resonate, resonate deeply with you. So if you want to find out more about Pam, you can go to her website, pamgrout.com. But with that, I'm going to welcome Pam to Grief 2 Growth.

Why, thank you, Brian. That was a beautiful introduction. Thank you.

Yeah, thanks for being here. We were talking before we got started, we have something in common. In fact, we have a daughter. I don't ever like to use the word died because I don't believe our kids die, but we have daughters in spirit. So I'd like to start by asking you about your daughter and give you a chance to tell us about Tasmin and introduce us to her.

Well, it's really interesting. I have never been married. And when I was about 36, a friend of mine was going to see a psychic. And, you know, I'm always up for an adventure. And I thought, oh, I'll go along, you know. And we're sitting there and the psychic, it kind of— she'd come in from California. I was living in Connecticut at the time. And she went around the room, you know, and told everybody what their next purpose in life. And here I am, this you know, traveler and freelancer and, you know, not married. And she came to me, she says, I don't know if you're gonna like this, but your next role in life is parenthood. So we walked out of that session, and I said to my friend, that lady is crazy, you know, that, you know, that was one I didn't necessarily believe. But sure enough, within a month or two, I was indeed pregnant. Greatest gift of my life. And sure enough, I had Tasmin. She was born on October 8th, 1993. And she's just been, like I said, the greatest gift of my life and continues to be the greatest gift of my life. I feel still very close to her. But anyway, so I raised her. In the beginning, I was kind of looking to live in a community, you know, that, that whole thing, it takes a village to raise a child. So I was going around to various communities, like intentional communities, you know, I went to one in Missouri, I went to one in Colorado. So anyway, that, and then eventually, you know, my first book was published with a big publisher. And I got wrapped up in doing all that. And so I eventually just bought a house and raised her in a conventional way, you know, I moved to a town that was a university town that was a little bit smaller, I had been living, I've lived a lot of places, but I had been living in Kansas City, and I wanted to live in a smaller place. And I had grown up in Kansas. So I raised her in Lawrence, Kansas. And she always thanked me for that. She loved it. It's the kind of town where there's plenty going on because of the university, but it's not a big city feel, you know, so you can still walk around and enjoy things, but yet there's plenty to do. So it's a good place to raise her. She went on, graduated from Grinnell College, studied Spanish and anthropology. And had gone to Spain and lived there for, for a while after she graduated, had come back to Lawrence and was gonna head to China. But she ended up staying in Lawrence with a job. She got a job with Big Brothers Big Sisters. She was Spanish-speaking, you know, coordinator or whatever for the program. So luckily, she was here that last year of her life, which was, again, such a great gift that I was able to, you know, be, be here, or she was here to be with me and We'd call each other on the phone. Hey, you want to go fika? Which is a term— we had been to Sweden together. We traveled a lot together because I did a lot of travel writing. And so fika is a term that you go and have a coffee and a pastry. So we would get together very often. You know, this is— she's already grown, you know, has her own apartment, all that. But so we've always just been super close. Again, as a travel writer, I took her all over the world. She'd been to 40 countries, you know, in her short 25 years of life. Which is pretty amazing for someone that age. And so she was always going with it. She was just this beautifully kind, loving person. It's like she had some agenda, you know, way beyond anything I could understand. I mean, I think she came to heal me in a lot of ways. But I also think she came to, to spread love because she, she never did the things that a lot of kids do. Like a lot of her friends are into following the celebrities and you know, doing those kinds of things that teenage girls do. She just never had any interest in that. She was like, one of the stories I told, this is long before she passed, but when she was younger, we had done 3 things. We'd gone to a homeless shelter to serve one, you know, in the effort, and then there was a parade we went to see. And then I think I took her to see Annie or some play at the Lee Center. You know, so these 3 things we had done over this weekend. And the thing she said, you know, like the next Monday, oh, when can we go serve at the homeless shelter again? You know, that she just loved— she was just pure love. And she never— I mean, I always wanted to like help her with schoolwork or whatever. But, you know, she just did it all. She was just very self-motivated, self-driven, and didn't need a lot of my help. Although, again, we were just, you know, super, super close. And the year she passed, it was interesting. My father passed that year. My mother passed 9 days before Taz passed. And then we had just come back from my mother's funeral, you know, and parents dying is a whole different ballgame. And I mean, you know, they were there in their 80s. It wasn't, you know, and again, I've always believed that we're so much more than these bodies and that we're still connected. So those weren't like such earth-shattering things. But then, you know, we literally had come back from my mom's funeral. Taz had gone with some of her friends to see one of them had just moved into apartment and they all gone up there that night. And because my mom had just passed, you know, and this had just happened, I hugged Taz so big. I mean, I always hugged her when she left, but it was just like, oh, I love you so much, you know, because you just never know. You know, you know, because we just, you know, finished up with the funeral. And then the next morning, we're texting each other, we're gonna go see a movie, you know, see a movie. And I noticed she hadn't returned a text after a while. I had said, hey, let's go have breakfast before we go to the movie, you know, just whatever. And there's— next thing I know, there's a cop at my door. And she had had an aneurysm, and they had her at the local hospital, Lawrence Memorial Hospital, and they were life flighting her to Kansas City. Well, you know, I never spoke to her again, but that's how sudden it was. And again, 25, perfectly healthy, you know, just the last thing I would have expected. And so anyway, yeah, it began a whole new journey for me, very different than the one I thought I was on. You know how that does happen. So, so anyway, that's kind of Taz in a nutshell. I love, as I'm sure you do too, I love to talk about my daughter. And that's one of the things I think people think, oh, we don't want to talk about that. We don't want to go there. But it's like my greatest joy to talk about Taz, as I'm sure you feel as well.

Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for sharing her with us. And I want to say I'm sorry for your loss. That, that sudden loss of somebody that's so vibrant and such an important part of your, your life, I can only imagine the hole that must have left for you.

Yes, as I mentioned before, I was in the middle. I had a deadline on a book. It was my 20th book. And I was halfway through it. And I considered just, oh, I can't finish it. So my publisher even offered me that alternative. Do you know if you want to push the deadline back? And I did push it back a couple months. But I, I don't know something about keeping on with my life in some way, you know, to continue doing that. Sort of kept me going, I guess. But I mean, it's been very, very different transitioning on how you look at your spirituality and how it— how you look at who a person is, really, you know, and who I am really, you know, bigger than just this physical body, as I— as Taz was— is much more than her physical body. And some of the stories that have happened, you know, the way we've stayed in touch even after that has been pretty remarkable. And I know, being in the group, and that's, you know, definitely a part of that group. And it, you know, it's very meaningful to be able to share that. So, yes, I've definitely been on a path that I didn't knowingly choose in any way.

So, right. So you, you're living a big life of adventure and travel and everything before. I know for some of us, when something tragic like this happened, it kind of wakes us up and, you know, kind of forces us to start living, I guess. What, what changed for you when Taz passed?

What you—

because you mentioned that there was a transformation. What was the transformation like for you?

Well, I was always interested in spirituality. I mean, that's what my books were about, that, you know, this bigger thing that we are, this this bigger part of ourselves. So I've always been interested in that. And interestingly enough, because of my books, I had several parents send me their books about losing a child. I mean, so I've been reading these books. I happen to be friends with Anita Moorjani. So I already believed in so many of these concepts, right? But like so many things in spirituality, believing them, having a theoretical, you know, belief is different than having the true experience. So I would guess that has changed. I would say I've slowed down. I said I did finish that book. I have yet to write another one. Although the 10-year anniversary of E-Squared just came out, but you know, that was already written, basically. So I would say I slowed down a bit. And I really have a big focus on really learning who I am, who is You know, I don't feel that I'm this body, this person, but I am spirit connected to everything. So I think it's really forced me to, you know, smoke what I sell, so to speak, you know, smoking what you're selling. So, so yes, I would say that I also have started a foundation, as you mentioned in the introduction, for my daughter. We had a funny little game we played. It was when she was in junior high. Here I was telling you how she, you know, didn't get into it, but she did start this funny little Facebook group called The Amazing Awesomeness of 222, as you know, a junior high kid might. And all of her friends, like, if they'd say, oh, what time is it? And even if it was 5:42, she'd say, 2:22. Or, you know, how much does this cost? You know, it didn't matter. It was $2. I mean, that was just her thing. So her friends would call her at 2:22. And so the year she kind of did that, we had gone on 2 trips. We'd gone to London. And we got room 222. We had gone to Alaska, same thing, we happened to get 222. So throughout, she grew out of the little funny Facebook thing. But we continue to always send each other pictures of people like, say, if I'd be in somewhere and I'd see a, you know, 222 or, or whatever. So and I'd even written about it in E-Squared, kind of her little 222 thing. And so it was just, we'd already— and so soon after she passed, I got the the message very strongly to start this 222 Foundation. And, you know, she would work with me. And so every year on 222, February 22nd, we give an award or grant to a person or an organization that is working to change the consciousness of the world. And, you know, our belief is that is the, the thing we most need to do is change consciousness, because as long as we believe some of the things we believe, we're going to continue acting in the way that we act. So we really need to change our consciousness. She was also a very creative, artistic person. So we really focus on projects that use creativity to make a difference in the world. So we've done all kinds of things. Interestingly enough, right after she passed, and I'm in kind of this fog. But I had already been scheduled to go to India for this Tribes for Good. They had invited me over there. And I'm thinking, how am I going to get on a plane and fly all the way to India? You know, my daughter— I mean, it was a month later, but still, you know, it's like you're just shattered, you know, you can't hardly get out of bed. I mean, so anyway, but I talked my friend, even though it was over Thanksgiving weekend, I talked my friend into leaving her family, going to India with me. And that's would enable me to do it and she participated in the tries for good. But then we ended up going to the Taj Mahal, which is, you know, we've got to do the tourist thing while we're over there, right? So we go to the Taj Mahal. We— our guide there happened to speak Spanish as well as Hindi and English, which, that's interesting. But then he mentioned that the Taj Mahal, which is this amazing monument to love, I mean, that's what it is, but that it had taken 20,000 workers 22 years to build it. So there's the 222. And then we find out, you know, it was the favorite wife of this one mogul, you know, this mogul from wherever, but he— so he built this monument to— and his wife's name was Mumtaz. I mean, how wild is that? So anyway, so we left there. And I'd already had this idea that I was going to do a 222 Foundation of, you know, but it wasn't formally But we go out to this place called Shiro's Hangout. And it was a place where women who had had acid thrown on them— in India, there's still a little bit of a culture like, you know, oh, you didn't give me the son I wanted, they throw acid and it disfigures their face. I mean, it's very sad. But these women were out there, because usually they go into hiding when that thing happens. And luckily, it's rare. But you know, when it does happen, they usually go into hiding, never seen again. But these women were going out there bravely with a little coffee shop, making, you know, coffees and teas and, you know, treats for people totally free. People would leave donations if they felt like it. But they were getting ready to move, they needed to move to another space. So that was the first project of the 222 Foundation. And I felt like Taz led me there. You know, we've just been to this, you know, Mom Taz's Memorial to Love with these 22,000 workers, 22 years. It's like, wow, you know, these signs, you know, when you really start paying attention, as you know, that they're so clear. And I feel like in a way, signs and guidance is always available for us, always. But it takes, you know, maybe paying attention in a new way. And that's maybe what happens, you know, when someone leaves the physical, perhaps. But so yes, I started noticing these kinds of things a lot more. I mean, that was our— my book E-Squared was even kind of a out something. So I, you know, like I said, I was already into that. But it again, taking it to a whole new level, you know, seeing the signs, but signs I most love from my daughter. I mean, that's like my favorite sign. And luckily, I've had a lot of readers and people over there. I'll tell you about another sign that we have, but people send me 222s to this day, you know, it's been 5 years now since she passed, and they send me hedgehogs, which is another little thing that she and I had. So the stories around the hedgehogs are that are just, you know, kind of really crazy. Almost hard to believe, really. But anyway, I can tell you that too, if you want to hear it.

Yeah, yeah. Tell me one of the stories about the hedgehog. Sure.

Well, so we had a little game that we played. Again, you know, I'm kind of an unconventional person. I was always, you know, a writer. I didn't have a regular job. You know, she was raised in kind of an unconventional home. This is that. We had this little game, and whoever would say hedgehog first when a new month came in was gonna have a lucky month. That was just a silly little game we played. So, you know, when she goes off to university, it's like, hey, she's up till midnight studying. So she always won, you know, 12:01, man, of the month. And then she went off to Spain. Of course, she's 8 hours ahead, same thing. So, you know, it was just a silly game we played. But about 5 or 6 months after she passed, a hedgehog came to my awareness on the first of the month in a kind of a weird way. And I sort of suspect that maybe every month before that was also happening, but it, you know, it took me that long to notice. But since that time, and this is, you know, been, well, 4 and a half years, because like I said, it was about maybe 6 months before I noticed the first one, she always manages to send me a hedgehog in some strange way on the first of the month. For example, I was doing a podcast like this. And this woman I was talking to, she goes, you know, this is really weird, but there's this weird animal in my backyard. So watch out, Brian D Smith. I guess it's not the first of the month. But anyway, so she goes out, this was May 1st one year, and there was a hedgehog back there. One year, this is, I mean, this is so wild. It's almost like if it didn't happen to me, I would hardly believe it, right? But I was having hip surgery. And I'm thinking, oh man, I'm gonna be on— it was on February 1st. It's like, I'm gonna be under anesthesia. How in the world is she gonna get assigned to me? But I come home, it was just a, you know, in and out sort of thing. And this just gives me goosebumps. I come home from the surgery, there was a box of chocolate shaped like hedgehogs with a hedgehog toy. It was sent to me by a reader from Canada who had no idea I was doing surgery, who had no idea. I mean, I— he didn't know it was going to land on February 1st, or maybe— I don't know. I mean, again, my readers kind of know that I have this thing with hedgehogs.

Hmm.

But I don't know, it's like, I feel like Taz has all these emissaries out there, you know, like we've got this big community, Taz and me and all these people. And, you know, they're always supporting. I mean, I've gotten so much love and kindness and support from so many people. I mean, it's almost overwhelming. Like, wow, I don't deserve all this. You know, sometimes we don't think we deserve all the good that comes our way. But anyway, yeah.

So you, you, this, the psychic tells you that you're going to be a mother, which I'm sure you were like, I could only imagine you must have thought she was insane.

Yeah, right.

What are your thoughts now? Do you think that you and Taz planned this? You know, do you believe in destiny, soul planning, or what are your, what are your thoughts about that?

Well, I really try to live in the moment, you know, so I try not to think too much about the past or the future. I mean, that's one of my practices is to really live in a moment where everything's really happening in my, you know, in my beliefs.

Sure.

But I do feel that she came to me for a very special reason. Again, I was, I was all over the place, traveling all over the world doing all this stuff. And she really got me to settle down, write the books that I wrote that, you know, really, according to people, made a lot of difference in a lot of people's lives. So I feel like she came to me to get me to do, you know, because I started writing longer projects. I was always doing like travel articles and writing for magazines and things like that. But it's like, hey, you're a mom, you want to stay here with your kid, they're in school, you know. So I took up book writing. And then, so that, and also just to learn to love and open my heart in a whole different way, as becoming a parent does. So yes, I feel that, you know, I think she was, she was always the wisest person in the room. So you know, she may have, you know, been kind enough to say, I think I'm gonna go to that crazy girl and, you know, be her kid for 25 years and see what we can create together.

So, yeah, she sounds like an old soul, which a lot of the kids— I talked to parents all the time who, whose children passed early, and they, there seems to be this almost old soul quality to them, this zest for life. You know, she sounds— I mean, all of her kids are phenomenal, but she sounds a lot like, you know, people that I talked to that had kids like this that I feel like come into the world for, for a very specific reason for maybe a shorter period of time than the rest of us do.

Yeah, so I can see that. I mean, it's interesting because she did— she loved it. She was really great with kids, and she wanted to have kids. So You know, you know, there's so many different dimensions going on, I think, in our lives. So, you know, on one dimension, she's here in the physical plane. So she's going to do, you know, that sort of thing. But obviously, that never happened. And, you know, that's, you know, like I said, there, I have so many reasons I could feel sorry for myself. I'll never have, you know, the whole stories that we tell ourselves, right? But on the other hand, I got 25 years of being a parent. And for a person that's never been married, I've got a partner I've been with for 22 years. And, you know, Kaz, she came into our life when you guys were two, but I, I mean, when Taz was nine. So, you know, we, you know, she helped me settle down in that regard too, because I was, you know, always dating different guys and whatever. So, you know, so yes, I feel like she helped me know what I did for her. I'm not sure. You know, I tried to be the very best parent I could, you know, and I helped her with a lot of creative things, or, you know, encouraged her or whatever, in that regard. I mean, you got her room, which still looks— have you ever been to Meow Wolf? Or do you know what that is? It's an artist collective in Santa Fe. And they decorate these houses up crazy. Her bedroom, I mean, it's still like this, looks like a Meow Wolf installation. I mean, it's, you know, painted and all kinds of things. Not every parent will let their kid do that. So I kind of allowed her some creativity. And it occurs to me, Brian, I'm just labbing. You mentioned, you said, oh, just, you know, go on and on. It's like, I'm taking it very seriously. I'm sorry if I'm talking too much.

No, no, you're great. This is exactly what— this is exactly what I want, when people get to know you, when people get to know Taz. You know, I think that, again, the children like her that come into the world, I think they come in for— to reach a lot of people. And my wife used to say to my daughter Shayna, kind of jokingly, you're going to be famous one day, you know. And Shayna, you know, people know her name, not like, not like you, but all over the world now. I mean, people— she's been on stage with Suzanne Giesemann, giving presentations, and Shayna's picture's been up there. And so yeah, I think our kids, you know, they— to me, we're still a partnership. We're still, we're still a team. And I sense that with you and Taz as well, that your relationship continues. And that she's still inspiring you. Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief? Most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become, a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there.

Yes, that's so true. I couldn't have said it better. Oh, yes.

So you, you said, I guess before Taz, you were writing like travel articles and blogs and stuff like that. And then did you start to— is that when you morphed into more like the E-Squared book and the Course in Miracles books? Was that after Taz came into your life?

Well, yes. But yeah, I started writing books. Before I was writing articles and blogs didn't exist back when I— I mean, I've been a freelance writer for a long time. So I was, you know, pitching to magazines, writing for magazines, used to write for a newspaper, the Kansas City Star, and I like to say was where Walt Disney and Ernest Hemingway got their start. So, so anyway, I wrote for the Kansas City Star. And then but I've been on my own for a long time as a freelancer because again, I love traveling and love travel writing. So I was just you know, did 3 books for National Geographic. And that was— Cass was already born at that time. But again, staying home long enough to write books, you know, it takes, you know, a period, as you know, it takes a period of time to write a book. You don't just bash it out. Well, even an article takes a little bit of time, but, you know, usually a month or 2 weeks, or, you know, depending on that. So, you know, it's like, okay, I need to be here. I'm going to be here when she's in school. Kind of a story about E Square. I had written that book under a different title. It was called God Doesn't Have Bad Hair Days. But basically, it was the same book that ended up becoming, you know, 40 languages and this big giant number one New York Times bestseller. But when it came out as the new book, because I got the rights back and, you know, changed it to e-squared, Kaz had just gone off to college. And sometimes I think maybe that book, you know, had the trajectory it did, you know, after Kaz was off at politics. You know, before, if I was traveling off to the Philippines and Japan, all these places to talk about the book, you know, I would have been there for Kaz and school. So anyway, you know, maybe the timing was right. And that's why I brought it back out. And, you know, I got that hit, that intuition to bring it back out, and then it took off and whatever.

So tell me about E Squared.

Well, it's the one that you know, started, you know, this, whatever, having all the blog posts and stuff. It's a book, it has 9 do-it-yourself experiments to prove that your thoughts create your reality. And it's basically this idea that we are connected to a bigger force than just us. We are connected to this bigger force. Many call it God. In fact, that's what I called it. And God doesn't have bad hair days. But that but that this force wants to interact with us, wants to guide us, wants to bless us. I mean, that is what this force wants to do. And I feel like now Taz is in with that, you know, it's like this other dimension that we're not always so aware of when we're in the material body. But so the book has 9 do-it-yourself experiments. I literally say to people, don't take my word for it. You know, we spend all our lives taking the word of the preacher, taking the word of the whoever it might be, the guru, the, you know, the politician. No, try this for yourself. So I set up these things like scientific experiments. They're like little lab report sheets. I mean, I really wrote them up just like a lab report sheet. I said, give it, you know, 48 hours for most of the experiments and see what happens. And I think the reason the book just took off, people love that, you know, doing it yourself, and they had all these remarkable results. And they started blogging about it. People put up videos on YouTube. I mean, people, you know, and then everybody's talking about it. So it just, it took off at that point. So anyway, that's kind of the basis for it. But that's why I would get a lot of those books from, you know, parents that had lost children, because there is more. And I've always known there's more. I didn't want this more for myself. I mean, the more, but not this more, you know, the way that I've had to learn with Taz and being connected in a different way.

So, right. So I'm sure you've probably gotten the question. Someone says, well, if I, if I create my own reality, I would have never created this.

Yes, yes, yes. That was, that was a big, like, whoa. Well, and one of the things I say is, you know, like, there's pointillist paintings, and you know, when you get really close and you're right up to the So a pointillist painting, all you see are dots, right? Mm-hmm. So of course, no, I would not choose that. When you step back with a pointillist painting and you see a bigger picture, you see more of what way it's supposed to be. So I'm not saying that I chose it. I won't go that far, but I can see how, um, I can turn it into a thing that could be for my good, you know, and that it could be for my benefit on some weird way. I think being a parent was definitely for my benefit. You know, 25 years, I felt such great gratitude that I got to spend 25 years with this incredible person. I mean, how lucky am I? Again, it did not turn out the way I guess I thought it would, but life doesn't, right? I mean, life is ever-changing, ever-evolving. And we're interacting with it at all times. And we always have some say in it. And that might be— I may have, you know, perhaps widen my understanding of that as well since Taz has passed.

Mm-hmm.

Oh, yeah.

So when it comes to creating a reality, are we So does that— are we co-creators? Would you say we're co-creators? Or we, we actually, we absolutely create our own reality? What, what level of control do we have over that?

Well, I feel like we're co-creators for sure, with this divine force. I think what happens is we learn a lot of paradigms about the way the world works. And then we're limited by those beliefs that we have, you know, we have a story. It's a very strong story that Taz is no longer here. I mean, that's what, you know, what 95%— I don't know what, you know, would believe. But the story that works better for me is that she is here. And that I can contact her and that I do have these miraculous gifts from her. So we have a lot of control over the story, but, but we learn stories, you know, coming in, you know, our parents teach us stories, our culture teaches us stories. And a lot of them aren't true. But once you believe a particular story, that is how it will play out for you, because you believe that story so strongly. So if anything, I really stand for opening your mind. And that's what these experiments kind of open your mind and just see if there could be a bigger reality, you know, is it possible? That's what, you know, this group that, you know, is there a bigger reality? Is there a possibility of still staying in touch with our children? You know, that's a good exploration experiment to do. And I'm grateful, you know, that some of us are doing that.

Yeah, well, you know, I guess the thing is, when it comes to stories, I mean, two stories can be true at the same time. And the way I look at it is we can, we can choose our story. And some people might call that creating their— creating a reality. That's— and that's a matter of semantics. So for example, I can choose, you could choose to tell ourselves a story that our daughters are no longer with us because they're physically not. I've heard people say, I'll never see them again, using the word never, meaning really the end of this physical life. Or we can tell ourselves a story that they are still with us, and that I will see them again, inevitably, because this life is not forever. And both things are true. And, you know, from a certain perspective. So in that sense, I would agree that we do get a chance to kind of create our reality.

Right. One of the things I wrote in one of my books is that just like you wouldn't go into a restaurant, look at the menu and pick, oh, I don't like this and order that. Or you wouldn't walk into a department store and pick the ugliest dress or ugly shirt, I guess, and take it to the counter. You know, we have a choice over what we use. So thoughts and the stories, we have some choice over that. And for me, I prefer the story that makes me happier, that makes me have more joy. I mean, to choose joy in the face of grief is a defiant, radical act. You know, it truly is. And because you could get all the sympathy you want. I mean, you know, we, we have earned it, you know, we could, we could get a lot of people going, oh, you poor thing. I mean, that is definitely, you know, but I choose a different story, you know, and it serves me. If I'm wrong, it still serves me.

So yeah, yeah, well, I don't think from your perspective, I don't think you can be wrong. Because again, I think, I think both stories are true, depending on how you decide to look at it. I'm curious about this idea, though, of creating reality in, in terms of— I was reading on your blog someone who needed a certain amount of money, and that amount of money, you know, came into the— came into their lives just when they needed it. So how is that— how's that manifested for you? Or what kind of— what kind of stories can you tell us that that's happened for other people?

Oh, well, that's one of the things about each square that's been kind of rewarding for me, When I told that story about the 222 and Taz, I gave my email address. You know, this is before I knew that I was going to hear from hundreds of thousands of people, maybe millions. But, you know, if sometimes just knowing that synchronicities happen, because I told them how we had hotel rooms with 222. And so send me your story. So people had my email. So I have heard so many stories from people, I mean, hundreds of thousands of stories about people that had some kind of gift, because you're not necessarily specifying from the universe, give me this, although sometimes we do that. But it's more like, I trust it's a benevolent universe, that again, this force wants my good and wants to guide me, wants to bless me. So if we believe that, then we're more open to seeing those signs. I think. Yeah, I don't know if I quite answered your question.

Well, yeah, the question was, I guess, from the perspective of, I guess, the skeptic that says, you know, I'm not actually creating my, my own, right? We talked about for one paradigm, we can, we can, we can tell ourselves different stories. I guess I was going to the next level is, am I actually creating my reality? And can I, can I bring things into my life?

Right. Well, I've heard a lot of stories like that. I mean, everything from cars to $100,000. I mean, all kinds of things. And the one I think you're probably referring to was the one about the woman who just happened to open the book and there was $20 bills. Is that the story?

That's the one.

I mean, that's like, that's so far out of most people's belief system, right? I mean, and that was kind of the point of me putting that on there. It's like, well, if this sounds impossible, and I can see that, like I said, I can I can't see both sides of every point, then that probably isn't going to happen to me, right? Because I'm not— I'm not— that can't happen. But if you are open enough, maybe it can happen. I mean, the truth is, you know, this thing about dark matter. You know, we only see a minute part of, of the electronic frequency, the electromagnetic frequency. I mean, that's all our little eyes are able to see. You know, there's so much out there that we can't process it. Because, you know, it's just so much. So we all choose, you know, okay, this is the part I'm going to focus in on. And then we kind of create within that little band of focus. So my position is that I want to open that focus wider, to open up to what some people might call miracles, but which to me is the way the world works. But so you can call a miracle, you can call it whatever you want. To me, that is the reality of the way the world works. And that's what I guess I tried to prove to people in that. And one of the things, you know, it's funny, because I heard so many stories about material things that people manifested. I am just not into material things. I love the stories of the connection that people make. And I've gotten a lot of those stories too, you know, people heard from a long-lost relative, they forgave, you know, somebody they'd been on the outs with. So many, many, many stories like that as well. And truly, that to me is much more miraculous than getting some, you know, car. I'm, I'm kind of one of these live simple people. You know, we've, you know, we don't need all the material stuff, you know, I'm more interested in the spiritual side or the you know, non-material side of life and myself.

And yeah, well, you know, I think it's really interesting you say that, because the stories that get the big splashes are the ones like, I manifested $100,000, or I manifested $1,000 or something. But we all have stories of, I was thinking about someone that I hadn't heard from in 15 years, and then they called me, or the other synchronicities that happened in our lives. And I'm a very— I'm an engineer, it's my background. So I'm like, I want to know how things work. And I've been hearing about synchronicities and hearing about manifestation. And then from a scientific point of view, and I like what you talked about the electromagnetic spectrum, that we only see a small part of that. Because Carl Jung wrote all about synchronicities, and we all, we all see them, we all know that these things happen. And the theory that I've seen proposed now is like, You know, we, we look at cause and effect and we know a very small amount, right? So we can, we can predict certain things, but only certain things. Anything beyond that we call random. But the reason why we call it random is because we don't understand the forces that are creating it. So from our perspective, it's random. Like if you flip a coin, we would say, well, it's going to randomly land on heads or tails. But we know that's not true. If you knew exactly all the variables, you could predict just how that coin is going to land. So my rambling here is to say, I think there are forces outside of what we can understand. And maybe those forces are things like thought and intention. Maybe those things do actually interact with the physical world in ways that we don't currently understand.

Right, right. And one of the things people have enjoyed about my book is there are people, engineers, and doctors and people that are skeptical. And I encourage people to be skeptical. That's why I said do not take my word for this. Just try this, what I say, and see what happens. And those are some of my favorite stories when I get those, because a lot of people— well, some people are so skeptical, they're never going to believe that. Like, oh, we go in and we say, hey, yeah, we're still in touch with our daughter. They're gonna go, you guys are crazy. I mean, they would call us crazy. But I always consider that a compliment when people tell me I'm too woo-woo. I go, thank you. Because I mean, you know, that's That's my life. And I choose— that's a choice to believe that way. But I also mentioned a lot about, you know, quantum mechanics. I do, you know, I do include quite a bit of that in, in E-Squared. And I think, you know, those people that are more skeptical, I think that satisfies. I mean, some people aren't ever going to believe it. And that's fine. But there are, you know, I think that does— I do have that piece of it as well.

Yeah, well, even that, that term woo-woo, it's interesting, because, you know, doing the program that I do, I was, I was interviewing someone the other day, and I asked her a question. She's all, here we go, we're gonna get, we're gonna get woo woo. And then I was, I was interviewing another guy, you know, pretty recently. And I said, I asked him a question, he goes, we're going into that. And I'm like, to me, it's not, it's not woo woo, it's not crazy. It's not just based on wishful thinking. I think it goes beyond the, what we call the rational, right? So when you talk about when you, it's a scientific principle, dark matter, dark energy, We know that they exist. We don't know what they are. We can't define them. We can't detect them. We talk about we can only see so much of the electromagnetic spectrum. But even our instruments can't detect dark matter and dark, dark energy. So what are they, you know? And how do they interact with the physical world? Those are questions that we can't answer.

Right? Well, there's so much more than we see that we know. Dark matter is one proof. We know these things are happening this way, but we don't know why. But this is some explanation. And, you know, some scientists say, oh, eventually we'll figure everything out. I kind of don't think we will, because I feel like it's always evolving. Again, people, we put our energy out into this, you know, so there's just a lot of forces. And I feel like it's an evolving thing. And nothing stays the same. You know, we are moving rivers of energy, our bodies are, you know, we're 99.9% space. So you know what I mean? There's just I'm not sure we can understand. And personally, one of my greatest spiritual practices is— I don't know if you ever saw that old show Hogan's Heroes, but Colonel Schultz would say things like, I know nothing. It's all these American guys in the camps, and they were always— so anyway, so I feel like I, I don't want to know anything. I want to be open. I don't want to be sure about anything. I want to you know, realize there's more than I can know, more than my little pea brain can understand. You know, these little blobs of, you know, matter in our heads only can go so far, you know, but there's a lot more than just that.

So yeah, it's, it's, for me, it's really interesting because I am, I am an engineer by nature. I want to figure out how does it work. And I won't, I wouldn't go so far as to say that one day we'll know everything because I don't think our brains can comprehend it. And I think it goes beyond what we as physical beings can understand. But just having that understanding, I think, is taking a big leap forward, as opposed to the materialist who says, well, there's— it's only the material. Because again, what do we call material? Is dark matter and dark energy, is that material or not?

It's, it's right.

It's not part of our physical everyday experience. So why wouldn't spirit be the same? So I view it like I tell people there is no supernatural. There's only what we don't understand yet. Doesn't mean that we will understand it anytime soon. But there is something beyond our understanding.

Yes. And would you say with your daughter's passing, that has come more clear to you as well? And probably if I'd have been listening to your podcast all along, I'd know the answer to this. I'm sorry if I'm making you repeat something.

No, no, no, no. I— what I've realized is I'm a very left-brained person, right? So I'm like, again, I would push back against the woo-woo when I was, when I was younger. Intuition, you know, no. And what I'm realizing is there is a big role for intuition in our, in our lives. There's a big role for, you know, following that, that feeling that we have, those emotions that we have. Again, I kind of come up from more of a scientific perspective, if you want to call it that. I believe that we have, we have a connection to our higher selves, to our team, to our loved ones who are on the other side. So there is— it's, it's really, it's really real. It's something that's there. It's part of our human nature. I think that in our Western paradigm, we've just gotten so caught up with— it has to be this way. It has to be Newtonian, you know, for example, everything's got to be cause and effect. And I think there's something beyond that. And that's an understanding of definitely gotten since my daughter passed and something that I'm really working on. So like, when I read your story on your blog, I like what you said, how does this make you feel, you know, this person finding these, because, again, we're trained to like, okay, well, she must have put the money in the book, and maybe she subconsciously knew where the money was, because we want to go to that, you know, trying to figure it out. But I've had signs from my daughter that they go beyond any kind of reasonable expect, you know, explanation. Things that just should not have happened, you know, and, and you can, you can, you can sit down and maybe try to calculate the odds and say, what are the odds that you were going to get the rooms that you got, or the hedgehog that the guy is going to send, it's going to arrive on that day. We can, we can play games with that. But that's, that's kind of the, I think, the fun of like books like yours, that, that push us on our paradigms that say, maybe you don't have this quite all figured out. And And just, we're relaxing the fact that I don't have to figure it all out too. I think that's another thing we need to get to.

Right. The paradigm is that, you know, the knowledge is the most important thing. Well, to me, wisdom and knowledge are completely different. And that connection is different than— I mean, education is important. I, you know, encourage my daughter, you know, in that direction. And I, you know, right, a master's degree and all that. But I feel like the real answers, the answers of the things I want to know, are not something I'm going to learn from a book or from another person. It's within me. It's with my connection to something that I don't understand. You know, I just have— I just want to be open. I want to plug into that electricity, to use it, you know, one analogy I've often used, you know, like are you plugged into that source that is wanting to, you know, guide us? Most people aren't because of their belief systems, their paradigms, those narrow paradigms that we're so sure are right.

Right.

You know, it could be different.

Well, you— I love what you just brought— wisdom and knowledge— because to me, it's like, it's like you can read books all day long about something, but until you know how to apply it, you know, it's just, it's just knowledge. It's not, it's not wisdom. And, you know, I think a lot of the things that you and I are saying, we might have known on some level intellectually before our daughters passed. But when, when that happens, that's when, that's when it gets applied, right? That's when I'm a spiritual being. Okay, well, how, how much do you really believe that? You know, do you, can you, can you hold that perspective when your daughter's not in the physical anymore?

Right, right. That's, that's the ultimate test. And sometimes people will say to me, I can't believe how, how well you've done. And I think, well, sometimes I do really, really well. I still have moments where I don't do well, you know, I'm not, you know, so spiritually attached that I don't feel grief and that I don't feel sadness. And I don't feel, you know, all the things. I mean, those things never end. I mean, our life has changed. You know, my life has changed. But that doesn't mean I can't still be committed to gratitude, committed to seeing a bigger picture. So yeah, it's a complex world. And for sure, it is.

And that's, again, it goes back to those you know, two things can be true at the same time, two very different things. I always try to let people know, okay, for me, it's been 8 years since my daughter passed, it's coming up on 9 years. And so first of all, I'm like, okay, it hasn't been like this for me for, for 9 years. I mean, 3 years, I was a total mess, you know, and I'm, and I still have moments, you know, I've had moments very recently, where it's like, I can't believe this is real, And I can't believe I look at a picture of Shayna. And it's like, it's— this doesn't seem real that she's not, you know, she's not here anymore. So I want people to understand that when you and I are sitting here having these conversations, it doesn't mean like, oh, okay, well, now I have this perspective. It's all good. I'm all over it.

Oh, right. No, it's definitely not that case at all. And people, I hope people know that. I think I'm pretty honest in my blog post, although people that know me on a day-to-day basis will see more of the grief maybe than my blog post. Maybe that's like I jump into the phone booth, you know, come out like, oh, you know, on a blog post or whatever. But you know, both are true. And what you said is so the paradox. I mean, it is all true. In fact, I believe there's more than just two things can be true. You know, there can be a lot of different things.

Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Well, even that, you know, and I know I have to ask you the questions like, how does this manifestation work? Because again, that's that thing we have, right? So what, what percentage of it is my thoughts? What percentage of it is other people's thoughts? What percentage of it is God? You know, people, they would like, I want to, I want to plug in, I want to, I want to have the formula. But what it is, it's really, really complex. We've got a lot of things going on. We've got physical things, we've got spiritual things, we've got other people's thoughts, we've got our thoughts. We have, if you believe in life planning, we have different, we have life plans that overlap and intersect. And, you know, I've seen a lot of parents get really kind of down on, if you talk about pre-birth or life planning, they'll say, well, I would have never planned this. Well, it's not just our plan, you know, it's, it's my plan and Shayna's plan, and it's your plan and Taz's plan. And so You know, she got something out of the time she spent here, you got something out of time she spent here. And, you know, those things do overlap, but they're not exactly the same.

Exactly. Yes, for sure.

So you— I know you also have a book about A Course in Miracles. And is that similar to the E-Squared book? Where could—

I know you talked about experimentation with that as Well, it's funny because my publisher, you know, you have a, you know, marketing so different than writing.

Yeah.

So they wanted to put experiment in the title. So it is called The Course in Miracles Experiment. But it is not the experiment. It, you know, that's just they wanted, you know, to take that winning formula. But what it is, are you familiar with A Course in Miracles?

Yes, I am.

Okay. So, you know, there's the 365 Daily Lessons. And so how this book came about, you know, 2018 was the year when Kaz died, my mom died. At the beginning of that year, I tend to go through the Course in Miracles every year. So you know, I start Lesson 1 on January 1st. And this particular year, I was blogging about my— about the Course and the lessons. And so, you know, pretty much every day I was blogging about it. And pretty soon people start, oh, you need to turn this into a book, you know. And, you know, I'm a little slow, but after, you know, you hear about 50 of these messages, oh, okay, maybe I should turn this into a book. So what the book is basically is my— they call it Pam Grout speak. I tend to write in kind of a lighter, less serious— but it's serious, but it's, you know, I want it to be sustainable, you know. So if it's a little more fun, it tends to be more sustainable. So I write in a lighter way. So people wanted me to write, you know, the Course in Miracles, those daily lessons in the way I spoke. And I'd already written a bunch of them because I've been blogging about it. So, you know, my publisher said, yeah, yeah, let's do that. So that's the book I was working on when, when Taz passed.

So, okay.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I think that might make the Course a little bit more accessible for people who don't know that was channeled, and I think it was the 1970s.

Yeah, and it's interesting because it was two professors at Columbia University. I think they were in the medical psychology or something, but they were having a lot of fighting. The department wasn't getting along. And one day, one of them, it might have been Bill Thetford, the head of the department, said, there's got to be a better way, you know, than all this fighting and things. And it was almost like on cue. Cue, this voice started coming through Helen. This is the better way. And that's kind of how most people get into the Course in Miracles. It's like, what I'm doing now isn't quite working for me. There's got to be something better. So that was how I got into Course in Miracles. And even the book E-Squared, you know, some of the principles from the Course in Miracles. I've been a student of Course in Miracles for way before Kaz was born, you know, long, long go. So that's kind of my, you know, little spiritual practice, I guess you could say. So anyway, that's what, that's what Course in Miracles experiment is, even though it's not experiments. It's just, you know, the lesson.

Yeah, well, it's, it sounds like it's a similar way of looking at the world. And A Course in Miracles, I've looked at it some. It's an intimidating book if anybody's ever picked it up. It's, so it was, it was channeled by these, these people, and I think it was the '70s. And there's Jesus speaking, kind of giving a new message, right? It's like, you guys basically got it wrong with the Bible. So I'm going to come back and give you more, more detail. And it's, it's, and I've interviewed some of the people that have been associated with it. And it's a, it's a great thing, but it can be hard to access. So I think maybe your book might be a more approachable way for people to get to the material.

Right? That's what a lot of people say. Well, one of the things I said in the introduction, I said, If you go to a typical spiritual gathering, somebody goes, oh, people have a copy of A Course in Miracles, you know, 100% or whatever, will raise their hand. How many people have read it? And there's maybe two hands, you know, it's just, it's too big. It's like the big blue doorstop. Right. It's got such a great message, but it's not easy. And it kind of appeals to people that are kind of intellectual, I think. I mean, you might enjoy it just because it, you know, there's a lot of explanation for a pretty simple message. You know, but anyway, it's not for everyone, you know, if it's your path, you recognize that. And I think I recognize that and, you know, embarked upon that path.

So, yeah, well, it shows you that truth is, I think, everywhere in a lot of different formats. And, you know, what's accessible for one is not accessible for another. And so I think truth comes in different, in different ways, in different forms, you know, and as I study all these different things, there— a lot of them are basically saying the same things, right? We're spiritual beings having a human experience. It's all about love. It's all about connection. Um, you know, like you were saying, things come and things go. So this world is— the Course in Miracles basically says it's, it's a dream. This world's kind of illusory in a way, which is a very common teaching in a lot of even ancient Eastern teachings from 10,000 years ago.

Yeah, so true. Yes. And a lot of people compare it to Buddhism or whatever. So yeah. And I do like this idea that the woman that channeled it, you know, the two of them together, and it, in the beginning part, it had a lot about how they could, like, eliminate some of their issues and grievances. Then they took a lot of that out when they actually published it, you know, it just talks more about how more of a universal message of letting go and forgiving, but forgiving in the sense that what we were talking about earlier, do I really know this is the way it is, you know, so forgiving is being willing to look at a bigger picture, more than just, oh, he did me wrong, and I'm going to forgive him. It's more, it's like looking at things in a, in a bigger way. So that's kind of more what forgiveness is. And that's what the Course in Miracles is all about, looking, you know, beyond you know, the, the, oh, what do they call that? You would collapse the wave, you know, in quantum physics, I would collapse the wave, and then that's all we can see. So this is like, let's collapse the wave, so to speak. And let's look at a bigger picture.

Yeah, yeah. So I know you've, you've written 20 books. And you said you've kind of taken a break. Do you have any more books planned?

I've been working off and on on a book called The Ego's playbook. And it's kind of a humorous thing where the ego, you know, how did the ego get in our mind, you know, telling us all the stories that the ego tells us? Oh, well, you know, you shouldn't have done that, and you should do this. And, you know, just we get down on ourselves. The ego is like always talking, the chatter in the brain. So it's kind of a funny thing where it's like, you know, like a football coach has his game plan. So this is like the ego's game plan, but how I'm going to own humanity, Oh, wow. You know, I kind of worked on it off and on here and there. And again, it's kind of from some of the ideas from Courts and Miracles. But, but, but I'm not in the process. I don't have a deadline or, you know, a publisher at this point. It's just something I'm kind of playing around with. Yeah.

Yeah. So what keeps you busy these days?

Well, I went to Spain over the summer. The guy that did the, did some of the artwork for the 10-year anniversary of eSquared, was from Cadiz, Spain, and offered us his place. My partner and I saw, hey, place on the beach. Wow, yeah, let's go. So spent 6 weeks over there. I'm really, as I mentioned earlier, like really into living in the moment and really listening to the guidance. And you know, what, what is mine to do? And I'm not quite clear what it is. It might be just a day-to-day thing.

Sure.

Um, I've definitely slowed down, you know, since Taz has passed. Um, not traveling at the speed I did. And, um, so I don't know, I, I, I, I'm open. I'm open for further instruction, I'll say that.

Awesome. Well, I think that's a great way, a great way to live, you know. It's, it's, you know, I, as you said, everything is, everything is temporary. It comes and it goes. And and being open to that guidance on a daily basis. And it's, again, it's one of those things, it's not, it's not that simple. It's like living in the moment, but also we kind of have to plan for the future depending on where we are in life too. I interviewed someone the other day that was a pretty young person that, you know, says, I live in the moment. And I'm like, yeah, but we still have to kind of plan for retirement in the world that we, in the world that we live in. Um, so there's, there's always that that tension?

Right. Well, the Course says planning is a defense against God. And I guess how I would interpret that is, you know, to be open to if plans don't go the way you think they would, because you can get a lot of disappointment, a lot of, you know, regret and unhappiness if your plans don't go quite the way you want them to. But I feel like for me, you know, as I live more and more in the moment and being in touch with that bigger force, that everything I need to know, everything that needs to be planned, it's kind of becomes clear, you know, the right person comes along or the right financial planner, if you want to talk, you know, material things. But that things have a way of working out. And sometimes when we plan and stress too much, we close down to what other possibilities— I talk a lot about possibility state versus problem state. And most people tend to live in problem state, right? Here's the problem, we're gonna fix this. And I prefer to live more in possibility state. But so I do plan some, but you know, there, of course, does say that planning is a defense against God. I'm like, okay, but again, that's one, it's a little, you know, you can get both ways of looking at it, right?

Yeah, that's an interesting quote. And I, you know, again, it was channeled, Jesus supposedly speaking in it. And, you know, Jesus talked about, you know, don't worry about tomorrow and stuff like that. So as we were talking, I just had this, this thought pop in my head. Would Jesus have a 401? Because, you know, yeah, he lived in a society where, you know, he said we need money to pay the taxes, to go out and catch a fish, and there's going to be a coin in its mouth. Well, we can't really get by that way.

Right. So, well, can we not, or do we believe we can't? I mean, you know, have you heard of Peace Pilgrim?

I have, I can't remember exactly what it is.

Okay, well, when she was maybe 7 years old, she started walking and she didn't carry anything with her. She just trusted in goodness.

Yes.

And she trusted in God so much. She, she almost always had a bed, somebody would offer it, somebody give her a meal, but she had nothing. She was totally going on faith. And even though that's not my— I mean, I think she passed, I don't know, a while ago. But still, that's kind of modern times. So I wonder, and I'm not there yet, I still want to have a— you know what I mean? I do wonder if I could totally surrender everything, everything like she did.

Yeah.

What would life take care of me? I mean, that's my theory. I don't know quite yet if I'm going to be able to prove it. And am I even working But I do. I— that's my, that's my thesis, I suppose, that needs to be tested.

Interesting possibility to explore. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Pam, it's been wonderful having you here today. So tell people again, remind them of your titles. I know you've got 20 books, but tell them about, you know, a couple of your books and where people can reach you.

Well, if people go to my website, it's all on there. You know, I don't sell my books on there, but it they're all listed on there. You know, I don't feel like I'm a big person on trying to sell things. I have one of the things I've said that I want to be the Warren Buffett of happiness. I said that before, Kaz. Nonetheless, you know, that's more what I'm interested in is, you know, mental states and gratitude. I don't care about all that, you know, marketing and selling stuff. I mean, you know, you got to do some of that, but that's not my focus.

Yeah, you know, and I want to say this to you, because you're, you're here to make a difference in the world. A lot of people that I interview are like that. And so when I asked them this question, they get, they get embarrassed because they're like, I don't want to sell anything. And it's not selling, it's making your offering available to people. It's, it's, I think, I think I know that you have something that people want and want to be aware of. So your website is pamgrout.com.

Right. And all the socials, you can find me on Facebook and Instagram. Not that I do a lot of social media, but, you know, I do have a profile out there.

So yeah, absolutely. Well, again, great to speak with you today. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Yeah, thanks so much, Brian. Your daughter is so beautiful. I've enjoyed— I feel like I'm speaking to both of you today.

So yeah, thanks. All right. I'll see you soon.

Okay. All right. Bye.

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