Grief, Faith, and Suicide Loss: When Belief Is Shaken and Hope Feels Impossible- with Rachel Powell | EP 469

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. I have to be frank with you, when Rachel first reached out to me and told me she helps Christian widows with grief, I was a little apprehensive about having her on the podcast. I worry that the conversation might be filled with platitudes or with spiritual bypassing. But I gotta tell you, what unfolded in our interview was the exact opposite. Rachel showed up with raw honesty, with deep insight, and a willingness to go into the darkest, most painful corners of grief, especially the ones we're often too afraid to talk about. We spent a lot of time talking about suicide. So this is a trigger warning. We spent a lot of time talking about suicide, both from the perspective of someone who has lost a loved one to it, and someone who has personally stood on that edge. And when I asked her about suicide prevention, which is a topic that I've long struggled to wrap my head around, I gotta say, her answer caught me completely off guard. It was practical, it was surprising, and it was profoundly helpful. So this conversation isn't just about grief. It's about faith without denial, about pain without sugarcoating, and the kind of hope that gets built in the rubble. After you listen, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Go to my Substack at grieftogrowth.substack.com. Find the article there. And let's keep this conversation going. Close your eyes and imagine. What are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain? The things that bring us grief are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Brian D Smith. Hey there, welcome to Grief to Growth. And whether you're tuning in for the first time, you've been walking this journey with me for a while, I'm really glad you're here. My name is Brian D Smith. And on this podcast, we explore life's deepest questions: who we are, why we're here, where we came from, and where we're going when this life ends. It's a space for reflection, for healing, and for finding purpose, even in the aftermath of loss. Today's guest is someone who's not only faced profound grief head on, but she's turned her pain into purpose in the most courageous and compassionate way. Rachel Powell is the founder of Hope Speaker. She's an author. She's a speaker, and she's a widow. She's a widow coach, I should say, on a mission to help Christian widows reclaim hope and confidently create a future they can love again. After losing her young husband to suicide and surviving a suicide attempt herself, Rachel's journey of radical healing and rebuilding now lights the ways for others navigating the darkest valleys of grief. She speaks with unflinching honesty about the hard stuff, about loss, mental health, faith struggles, and the quiet desperation that many don't talk about. But above it all, she boldly shares hope. Her faith in Jesus is not just part of her message, it's the foundation of her mission. In today's episode, we're going to explore what grief looks like when you're a person of faith and how that can shape even complicate the healing process. We'll talk about spiritual struggles, struggles, the anger, the silence, the doubt that can arise after loss. We'll ask what it means to find purpose again when life as you knew it has been shattered. We'll also go deeper into suicide, both as a tragic loss and something many people quietly consider. How can, how can we help someone who's feeling hopeless? What does faith say or not say about suicide? And how can we respond in a way that brings life, not shame? This is going to be a raw and redemptive conversation, one I believe will speak to the hearts of anyone who's ever loved deeply, lost deeply, or struggled to find the meaning in the middle of it all. And after the episode, I invite you to head over to grieftogrowth.substack.com, where I've written a companion article for this conversation. It's a great place to continue the dialogue, to leave a comment, to share your reflections, and to join the community that's forming there. So with that, let's get into today's episode with Rachel Powell.

Hi there. Happy to be with you, Brian. Thanks for having me.

Hi, Rachel. It's really great to have you here. Great to meet you. First of all, I want to say I'm sorry about the loss of your husband. Tell me about him.

Yeah, André was an incredible person. We actually met way back in high school youth group. So we were about 16, or maybe even 15. And turned out we went on the same mission trip. To Guatemala right after we graduated high school, and we're going to university together here in Colorado, and we felt led by the Lord to marry young. We were married at 19, so we had a lot of growing up to do very quickly, and we also took on helping raise my nieces and nephew. My oldest niece was born when I was just 18, so began helping with them right away, and he jumped into that and loved those kids in amazing ways as they then entered our home, and we were raising them as our own. André loved the Lord. He loved people. He had just an incredible ability to remember names and make people feel seen and loved, and he changed so many so many lives. We were married 11 and a half years to the day, and we had our nieces and nephew with us, as well as one biological daughter who was one at the time.

Okay. And if you don't mind, with as much or as little detail as you want to share, what, what happened with, with his passing? Were you aware that he was struggling, or—

Yeah, so our story got really, um, It's kind of crazy. Like, it reminds me of that picture of the frog in the pot of boiling water. If you throw a frog in a pot of boiling water, it's gonna jump out. But if you put it in lukewarm water and heat it up over time, you can boil it where it doesn't realize, as the changes are so subtle and progressive. And that was really what the last year of his life was. He had been, as I mentioned, such an amazing, incredible person. I mean, André, he was so humble and so teachable and so wanting to honor the Lord and love Him well. He was an incredible husband and father, and he had struggled with an addiction in the past that had actually— we were almost divorced a year and a half or two in, and again, we were very young. We were able to work through those things, and he had years and years of sobriety. It was wonderful time of our lives. We were very effective together with the kids and ministry in our church. And he went on to get his PhD in engineering, and I studied biomedical sciences and went into nursing school, became a nurse. Life was very full. And for whatever reason, in that last year, maybe all of the pressures and the stresses, he started his own business, which he had always dreamed of doing. But that addiction resurfaced, and not only that, it began to escalate, um, out of control. And for whatever reason, instead of doing what he had always done, which was to be very open to getting help and, and hating that thing and wanting it out of his life, he began to become defensive of it and extremely angry at me for having boundaries that I was trying to navigate in that last year. So our story is very complex in that I found as I've met and connected with a number of other widows, not only suicide widows, but those who maybe lost their husband in another way, but who had had a history of addiction or abusive behaviors, that it really makes the grief very complex to, to try to navigate in the aftermath of losing them. Because in that last year, it was very crazy-making. I mean, he just, behind closed doors, where just a few of us would see, myself primarily, one pastor who was involved, a marriage counselor, and maybe a couple of friends, were seeing how extreme this was getting. He did become abusive in a number of ways, like definable abuse. And it was also very complicated, uh, navigating with our faith because our particular church at the time, um, continued to tell me to submit and to give him grace when things were happening that, um, I mean, he could have been arrested for that. There was, there was really major things going on. And so there was so much confusion. In our lives again, because most people didn't see that when he was around family or other people, even right up until the end, he could be his normal, like, joy-filled, loving self. But the issue that I was having with the addiction that was beginning to take over and put so much at risk, um, he had a lot of resentment and anger toward me for, which again wasn't anything like who he was. So it was very confusing, um, in that last year. And I was finding my voice to be able to have boundaries when I was a person who desperately wanted to honor the Lord and wanted to honor biblical roles and structures and authority as a way of submitting to the Lord. However, I really had to find my deepest connection with God and with the Holy Spirit and trust his ability to lead me, um, as I was hearing things from my husband and from church leadership that were not, uh, actually biblically accurate or safe, and things that put the sanctity of marriage above the safety and sanity of the people in it. Um, so some of these disparities were really all coming to a head at the same time. And we lost him by suicide in June of 2019. And, um, although he had mentioned during one marriage counseling session that he had named feelings of purposelessness and mentioned that he just wanted to go home to heaven. Um, he had said, I worked my whole life so hard for all of these things in my business, and now I'm not really— I don't really care about it, and I'm, I'm just thinking of going home. And in that one session, the counselor said, uh, you know, do we need to put a safety plan into place, like recognizing suicide as a risk? And Andre just said No, I would never do that. I'm just really hurt and I'm really angry. And most of all those marriage sessions were, um, I mean, he was very, very angry and he would be very, um, I guess it was a place to vent, but the marriage counselor would constantly, we would sit in these sessions and Andre would, I don't want to say rage, but rant very, very angrily and point his finger at me. And the marriage counselor would try to bring it back to a place of working through the addiction and also asking him, is there a place of redemption here? You know, a path we can get back on to try to bring healing to this. I hear that you're angry. I hear that you're hurting. But like, what, what now do we do with this? And we really struggle to get anywhere. When he had mentioned that, that was the only time. And he again had said, no, I would never do that. And I I guess I believed him. Now I know if anybody mentions suicide, whether overtly or more covertly, like they talk about not wanting to be alive, having no purpose, wishing they would go to sleep and never wake up again, or go to heaven, or talk about specific plans, I know now that is such a major red flag. It should never be and should never have been something that was brought up one time and then let go like it would never be addressed again. That was the only time he had ever mentioned it. I could tell that he seemed depressed behind closed doors, and I know now that depression in men can manifest as anger in a lot of cases.

Sure.

But that was that. He mentioned that in March, and, um, it was never brought up again. He never said anything like that again, and I truly believed he would just never do something like that. I hear that from so many suicide survivors. It's like, I just truly, truly deeply believed that that person would never ever do something like that. And so when it happened, it was a complete It was, it was a complete shock. Although, again, the water boiling over time, looking back in hindsight, you see these things that were very extreme that I wish I had done more. I wish more had been done by people who were hearing my cries for help and some of the extreme things that were going on when he left that night. Very angry with me. I was trying to have a discussion with him about the addiction and these boundaries. We had been going through a program that was trying to help both someone struggling with the addiction and a spouse of the person, and he was not wanting to engage and, you know, face that and talk about what actually needed to happen. He was wanting to go about life as usual, but with these explosions of anger that would happen behind closed doors and, and the behaviors continuing and escalating. Um, and when he left, I was very concerned. Like, something seemed so off and even dangerous. He had the shroud, like, it's hard to describe. I've seen it in just a couple of pictures that I have of him before, where it's almost like you can see it in his eyes. But this was also coupled with something that was so, like, dangerous, like anger to a different level, um, that I had seen him that way. And when he walked out of the house, I, I ran to the porch, and I remember like feeling torn standing there because I knew something was majorly wrong. But we had little children again at the time. Our youngest— so our kids were 13, 9, 3, and 1. In the house. I like couldn't leave them. And at the same point, I knew something was really wrong. I had to have because my last words were, "André, don't do anything unsafe. You don't have to." And I had called my counselor after he left, and I was like, "I'm just worried, like, he's so angry." And she encouraged me at that time. It was the last time I ever saw him. And, um, and to be fair, she had no idea this was coming either. She was very— she was the one person, my, my own personal counselor. We had a marriage counselor and I had my own personal counselor, and she was the one voice that was like advocating on my behalf for safety and like could see the picture a little more clearly, the craziness and the water coming to boiling. Um, but even she had no idea that he would ever do something like this. So these words weren't talking about suicide, but she said about his choices, about this addiction, about our life together, about things that were coming to a head. She said, Rachel, Andre has to make decisions for his own life. Like he's, he's going to make his own decisions. And I encourage you to, you know, give, give him to the Lord, take something to help you sleep if you need to, and, and, and try to rest. And, um, and he never came home. Um, and I also knew from that shroud that deep, there was something like dangerous underneath it. Um, and I knew that because again, looking back, I was like, this is crazy making. How could I even do something like this and go to sleep? But at the time it was normal in the chaos of what was happening. What I did was, um, I locked our bedroom door because my thought was, you know, he could get it undone. But I knew if he comes back as angry with me as he left, I'm in trouble. Like, I feel like I need to hear the lock in the door to give me enough time if he comes at me that I could like get the covers off my legs to defend myself. Like, that was the point of where my mind was at with um, how things had been happening, and you look at it now, you're like, that's insane. Like, how could you ever be in that situation? But when things over time become so insane, and when you're in an environment where, whether through faith, whether it's related to spiritual abuse or, or other forms of having your experience and your intuition invalidated, having said for so long, like, I can't do this, I can't do this, I can't do this, but having those words mean nothing, you come to a place where you're living in something that is completely, yeah, way beyond your capacity. And you've been doing it for so long, that's when these crazy things happen. And so it was tragic and I was devastated. I, you know, he was very angry at me. And so therefore I blamed myself. I was blamed by other people. The guilt that suicide survivors already deal with is tremendous. Everybody is thinking, what, what could I have done differently? What if, what the last time I had seen them, if I had said something differently? For me, I was like, I shouldn't have had that discussion that night. I shouldn't have tried to have that discussion. I shouldn't have had it alone. Um, the weight plus the anger, um, it's a whole different level of suicide loss. And when I've connected with other suicide widows who have had those dynamics, I, I, I have found that they actually are— they very, very rarely share anything publicly. I've connected with them through specific groups, um, or through widow events, or they come to me because I'm more open about my story in messaging me and reaching out to me. And I'll get stories like, my husband was all of these things. He choked me out and these things. And like, I'll never tell my kids. Like, I'm never going to tell anyone ever because they don't want him to be diminished, you know? Like, he was like two different people. Like, he was this amazing person that everyone knew and loved. And that's true. And then there was this whole other thing. Going on. And when you lose them, you so want their memory and their life to be honored. And in people who navigate grief in that way, it feels like you're grieving two different people depending on what memories you're thinking of. Like, oh my gosh, she was this incredible, amazing person. Like, oh, and these awful, horrible, dark things that happened to you. Um, it makes it very challenging. And I became so low in my own loss of him that I also struggled with suicide, and I attempted twice myself. So I understand both that suicide doesn't solve any problems, that it doesn't— it's— we like to say it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem. It puts so much pain on the people that you love. It doesn't fix anything. I was a strong suicide prevention advocate from the time that he died. And yet I myself was struggling so intensely that I also know the other side of what it's like to be in such unbearable pain that it feels like you cannot keep going. And I had 4 children, complicated legal dynamics and family dynamics and what I was receiving from other people and from the church about his loss. And, uh, I know what that's like as well. And so that's enabled me to be a strong voice in suicide prevention for people struggling, because I get it. And it's not about the worth or value of other people around you. Um, that person is not in their right mind, and I can attest to that. It's It's a very, um, deep struggle with pain that people have this transition of suicide in their own mind, from it being something you would never conceive of, something you would never do, to something you think about, to becoming a possibility, to becoming your only possibility, like your only solution, to like the only way out of this pain you're in. And that transition happens in a place in our brains. And it's hard for people to understand the struggle, but you're not in your right mind in that place. It's, it's very dark. And so I grieve his pain. And I also grieve the pain of all that we were left with. And being a widow with 4 kids, and we went into the COVID pandemic, the whole world went into themselves. I could not even I wasn't allowed to get more than, I think, a gallon of milk at a time. I was homeschooling. I had 4 kids home all the time in our loss. And most of the world was focused on their own families when we needed help the most. It was, it was an extremely trying time. And, and again, in the church community, I was involved in these very destructive and, um, painful dynamics with the leadership continued. Um, I led worship for the last time 3 days before he passed away. I remember when I would practice for worship leading, it was almost like— it reminds me in the Bible, um, when it talks about David playing the harp for Saul. It was like very therapeutic. When I would— even as angry as he might be with me, if I was doing worship practice, he would crack open his home office door. And, um, yeah, it was soothing, like, to have, have the Lord and have worship there in our home. Um, and I, and I did that the last time 3 days before he passed away. Once he passed away, I was removed from worship leading and was not allowed to, um, go back to that. They, they— I was told that they had concerns about my character, that I was not submissive. Um, you know, I had not been, in their words, up through that point when I was getting involved in another group that related to addiction and, um, and my own counselor and some of the boundaries I was drawing when they were telling me, um, you know, that I needed to submit. And I had found a voice for my own safety. So not only was I protected, um, but I was actually— there were consequences in the aftermath. And it, again, at a time where I needed support the most— and a lot of people in that church were wonderful, it wasn't the entire church body— but in the time that we needed help the most, I was treated— I, I remember having meetings like, I did not want to leave the church a disgruntled person. We would have meetings and meetings, like, with these pastors. Like a wolf among the sheep. Like, I am the church. I, I'm like this broken widow. What, what have I done? Like, and, um, they had called a meeting, uh, with some of these same people without me there. And when the language was the same thing that my late husband had been saying when he was not well about me and being unsubmissive and all of these things, um, my counselor was like, you need to run and not walk from that church. And, um, and so that was another part of my journey, uh, suicide widow, the pandemic. I was searching for a church home with my kids. I remember having all 4 of them, including my littlest, who had just turned 2, trying to keep a little mask on her face and manage all of them and keeping masks on their face, like going to other churches, trying to find another church community, which was so deeply important to me, very, very important for me to find the right place. So there was a lot of challenges. Along the way and in my own struggle with hopelessness and loss, having attempted— like, I would not be here if the Lord had not intervened. And I can't answer why, why did you do that for me and not for Andre? Like, there's still so many questions that I don't have answers to, but What I do know is this journey of pain and suffering and grief and even compound losses— I was diagnosed with complicated grief, and that's a fitting term for what it was, um, that it was truly, it was a battle, and the Lord was so faithful to help me in navigating this battle. It was really a battle within me and within my mind. Um, and I found that even though, like, a bomb had gone off in my life, it felt like I was at ground zero and, like, sifting through the rubble and finding pieces of my life and not knowing, like, where anything was or what was ahead or how to rebuild. There was still, under that rubble, there was this foundation of hope under my feet. Like, under my feet, the Lord Jesus Christ was a rock, and he was there. He— I remember praying and crying one of many nights and asking the Lord to cuddle me, because that's how I used to ask my late husband to hold me. I would say, Andre, would you cuddle me? I remember the second night of being a widow. I just like was in, I don't even remember. I think it was my parents' house. It might have been my in-laws' house. I was sleeping somewhere. It wasn't my house. And I remember speaking those words into the darkness, like, André, would you cuddle me? And there was like, no answer. And there was, you know, it was devastating. And the Lord cuddled me when I asked him to. Like, I remember that embrace. And so through this journey, my relationship with God and my faith became so much more than one way, like it had mostly been one way, like one direction. And I think our faith, it's really important, all the things that have been emphasized to me about, you know, about the Bible and about having sound doctrine and theology and hermeneutics and apologetics and all of these things of like, how do we know our faith is true? What evidence is there for it in science and in history and in all of these areas? And what does it mean to read things within context of the whole Bible and all of this knowledge things, right? It's very important because it's a basis of why we can trust it. But so much in my life, it had just been that head knowledge, right? And they would talk about it in the church, like head knowledge versus heart knowledge. Mm-hmm. Head knowledge, how do we get it to our heart? And how do we, you know, get it to our heart knowledge? And I think part of the reason we struggled with it so hard is because we cut our head off from our heart in the faith so much because we are teaching through all of our doctrine that emotions are bad and not to listen to our bodies. And, and, and the ways that we actually limit— like, we see in the Bible the Holy Spirit and God come in and like blow everybody's minds with new revelations, right? They're like, nope, that was just a shadow. There's like more here. This is what it's about. But then we think he doesn't do that anymore. And when it's all about the knowing. Um, and in my experience, where the Christian faith equates sinfulness with our humanness, we, we cut our head off from our heart because that's not the same thing. Like, sinfulness, flesh is not the same thing as being human. Like, Jesus was fully human. He didn't come to save us from our humanity. That wouldn't have been good news. Like, he, he came to save us from the corrupt flesh, but our, our emotions, um, and, and so much that's a part of our experience, we limit in faith spaces, um, in my experience, because we're scared that we can't control it or what that will mean, or if it gets off from what the biblical word says. And in fact that's been a huge part of this growth in my grief and in finding hope from my loss is that I can have an experiential relationship with the Lord that's two-directional, where yes, I pray to him and I read and I speak things and I can, I can speak scripture and know things, and I can hear back from the Lord and when we're in places of deep pain and trauma, like, we're in a part of our brain that all of the, the thinking knowledge prefrontal cortex isn't even online. When we're in those deep trauma spaces, you know, they're like, oh, well, you just, you know, speak the scripture and, and believe and have more faith, and that fixes it. It's like we're literally existing in a part of us where We can't talk ourselves out of it. So how does God meet us there in that experiential place? How does— how is he embodied with us in our pain and our trauma and our suffering? And so that was really the ground of such a— my roots going down deeper into hope that was still there under all the rubble and into rebuilding a beautiful life again that I can love and, and helping other widows do so, you know, it's come from that battle that I've walked through myself.

Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief, most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up. So you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it. The community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing. Listening, learning, trying to find their footing, readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become, a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there.

Yeah.

Well, Rachel, I am, um, I'm just sitting here kind of flabbergasted by what you've had to go through. And I'm very sorry because there's, there's a lot. And I think your complicated grief doesn't begin to describe it. Um, and there's a difference between religion and faith. As this is what I got as you were speaking earlier. It's just, it's amazing that you've been able to hold on to your faith despite the religion that people are trying to put, to put on you. Um, the, the church, you know, turning you away in your, in your biggest time of need, uh, not, not recognizing your humanity and your relationship with your husband. That's all. Um, I'm so sorry that you, that you went through that, and I admire you for being able to to hold on to your faith and come out of it on the other side, you know, even stronger. You've got some really unique perspectives that you can help us with. And one of the things I wanted to talk to you about, and you've already spoken about it, but the idea that faith or religion can soothe our grief, or can actually make it more complicated. And could you speak a little bit more about that?

Yeah, well, one thing I want to mention, to just to answer what you had said, religion versus faith, Yeah, I, I agree. I believe that religion is a lie. Um, I believe that religion and religions are all man-made ways, and there are many of them that we have created to try to build the ladder or, or make our own steps up to God, up to deity, up to being good enough, up to earning heaven, to— they're all stemming from our own ways and our own thoughts. And there's a whole myriad of different religions and different ideas about how we get there, um, or even that all of them lead to the same place, even when you look at them and they're saying things that are, um, very, very opposed to one another, which logically doesn't make sense. But, um, I— yeah, I agree, religion, um, is a lie. Faith is about a relationship with God, and I believe the only way that we could have known who he is and what our purpose is in anything of a greater, higher than what we could possibly know in our own self would be— have to be revealed by him to us. And I believe that he's done that in the person of, of Jesus Christ. And, and again, that being so much more relational than about following the rules, like, um, and, and making it about these things that we still make it about, like how good of a wife are you? Are you submitting enough? And all of, um, and all of these, and all of the ways that we, we do not empower male, female, everyone in the calling and mission. And that power of the Lord in us, like our ability to hear from him and to lead our lives forward, it just changes everything about our whole lives. It changes everything for widows, um, It changes everything because particularly if they've had that dynamic, um, one thing I'd like to name because I've encountered it with some of the widows that I've coached, if you have placed women in a place for so long where you tell them you can't do that without a man, you can't, that's a man's, you can't do that without a man, you can't do that without a man, and then all of a sudden their husband's dead and they have to do it all, you have set them up to fail so much more because not only do they have to do all of these things that they've never had to do before and that their husband did, they have to step into things you've told them were bad and told them not to do. And it's so— there's so much confusion and fear and pain where If we are equipping women to know who they are in the Lord and how loved they are, and the ways that He has equipped them to be part of the body, to share their gifting and to share what He's doing in and through them, if it's true, like in the New Testament where it says, "No part of the body can say to the other, 'I don't need you,'" and that the weakest parts of the body are indispensable to the rest, like if we really believe that, It changes everything. So yes, religion versus faith and what that means, um, has been so important because if, if each of us is connected to that and leading our life from that place, um, there's so much more power and there's so much more peace. Because I mean, I would say that when my late husband would corner me, um, he would corner me with things and he would say, you, this is sin and you need to promise right now you will never do you know, this thing again, it was like having a boundary, like having a— and I would— and I was like, I had connected with that inside of me enough to be able to just say, even though I was scared, I didn't know what was happening, I would say, you know, the Holy Spirit is not convicting me of sin. Like, I cannot tell you that I'm doing something wrong. So it's empowering and it changes our ability to lead our life forward, even after suffering grief, loss, what what we have been through, that if we're tapping into and believing what He has to say about us and about our future, it helps us from, from getting stuck. And to answer the part about grief and how that can make it complicated, I mean, my story is a lot of that, but how it, how it helps is because Where I think in a lot of grief spaces, what I also see is, is this: people have been through so much pain and suffering and they've lost hope in a lot of ways. And culturally, oftentimes our pain is invalidated, right, by other people who either push you forward or tell you, you know, what their opinions are about what you should be doing, or they give platitudes, whether that's religious or otherwise, we're not very good at coming alongside and companioning people in an empathetic way in their grief. And so people often will, like, hold on to their loss with these white knuckles, and grief spaces can become a place of defensiveness and anger, even toward good things that are possible, like hope and forward movement. It's like, Maybe for you, but there's not hope for me. And, or you talk about the possibilities ahead and rebuilding and it makes them angry instead of, because they're holding onto, um, the loss. And so I believe our faith can help us to loosen that. And so that we can have both. Uh, it's so important. And again, in, in my coaching and in my, my Christian Widow community, I have, this is so important for me to have both. That empathetic, safe place to be real and raw and have grief companions who, who get it. And you don't have to be all cleaned up. You can be real honest. And there's a willingness, there's an openness to all of the goodness here that's still ahead. Like the Lord says, I, it says, I will be confident of this. I will see your goodness in the land of the living. It's not that we're just here biding time till we die and we get to be with them, or that, you know, we're just suffering and enduring until we're dead. It's like, there is goodness here ahead of us. Like, we, we didn't die when they died. Like, part of us did. But, but, but again, that can be something that we like wrap ourselves in the grave clothes with them before we've even died. And I love where Jesus said to Lazarus after he rose, he said, take the grave clothes off of him. And it's like, it's part of the message to widows too. It's like, take the grave clothes off. Like, your, your story isn't over yet, and your reality today isn't your forever reality. And there's so much hope still ahead, but we have to be open to those possibilities, um, or we will never walk in them. We will never create them because we will always be over here holding to just how bad it is and how you know, we are victims of this pain and suffering that's unjust, and we'll get stuck there. And so faith and the Holy Spirit can help lead us forward gently. He comforts us, says the Holy Spirit is a Comforter, and he also gives us the power to walk forward with a hope and a love and a life that just seems like that this world can't understand because it comes from God. That's what I want my life and my business, you know, to be a testament to that. Like, this can only happen through the Lord. He doesn't want us to stay, to pitch a tent in the valley of the shadow of death and camp there and stay there the rest of our lives. Like, we have abundant things ahead of us if we keep going. And so The Lord has helped me with that 100%.

Yeah. Well, again, I want— you know, it's interesting to me, because a lot of times when people go through what you went through with a particular church or religion or denomination or whatever, they'll walk away from the whole thing. They're just like, I'm done with Christianity, I'm done with, you know, religion, whatever. And you, because you did hold on to this faith, uh, you apparently found another, another church home that that is more open, I guess I would say.

Yes. Yeah, I, I am so thankful for the church I'm a part of. I just want to say as an encouragement to people who have suffered, you know, church hurt is such like a Band-Aid term, in my opinion, but who have suffered church hurt, who have been spiritually abused, who have had trauma and pain and woundedness in communities of faith, um, that there are safe churches out there. Like, um, one, one little story that's a picture of this in my life.

Mhm.

I, um, so when I became part of this community, um, in, in a matter of time— I didn't advertise anything, I didn't say— through their own knowing of me and where I was at and whatnot, I was approached and asked if I could lead worship over there. And I was just like, don't you want to hear, I don't know, every dark thing that I've ever done? Like, how do you know that I'm worthy? Or, you know, it was a completely different kind of environment in a relational way of love and grace that I hadn't experienced. I'm not saying there aren't, you know, characteristics that qualify leaders, and I'm not saying that we shouldn't be excellent and skilled at the things that we do, but there was not the same, like, that wasn't just a filter at my other church home. It was like everything, you know. And my pastor himself has repeatedly I've just had these experiences where, where I have been relationally wounded. I have experienced relational healing, like sitting with him. And like when I was nervous about starting to share my story more openly, um, for the first few years I did not talk about the bad things that had happened either, you know, in the church or with my husband or anything. And as I was as the Lord was giving me this call to reach other people who were struggling with these things by being open and honest with my story, I was really nervous about that. And he like was so encouraging to me. I mean, he, he spoke words of life. He said, you know, you've been part of our community. This is what I see in you and your character. And like, our, our church is behind you. I was like, what? Like, what? I remember even something silly, like, um, my friend who was helping with a website, she's like, what are some places you've done, like, been the earliest versions of it speaking and blah? I was like, oh, my church, you know. She's like, oh, okay, so ask your, you know, church if you can have their logo, whatever. And I was like, oh no. Like, I remember writing this email to the pastor and being like, uh, can I use the church logo on my website and inside I was hearing the voices of all of this church leadership that was always— it was like I always had a bad motivation or something. Like, I was always— I was like, what if he thinks, like, I'm trying to— I'm trying to blur the lines between church and business? Like, what if he thinks I'm trying to take advantage of the church because I'm going to put it on my website? What if he thinks I'm, I'm trying to make it all about me and I'm, I'm using or abusing. And I like, I mean, I was like genuine fear about it because for so long I'd been under people who constantly questioned. I mean, when I— in the aftermath of things with my husband, when I was like trying to figure out what was going on, I was told I was, I was using the God card and I was trying to get on stage to be in front of people as like a devastated widow. And I was like, oh my gosh, like those are the thoughts that are going through my head when I'm writing this other pastor, it's like assuming all of them are thinking the worst about you because that's what I had experienced. And so I was afraid to ask him about the logo and like, I sent that email and he got back like in a few hours and it was like a sentence. He was like, oh yeah, like, we're behind you. Blessings. Like, I was like, that's it? That's it? Like, you know, those, those experiences, it seems so small, but when you're in a safe and healing community, it's profound. So. I am thankful that through what I went through, without invalidating other people's experience, because I know people who have experienced spiritual abuse and, um, been deeply, deeply wounded, you know, don't appreciate the other platitudes like, God wasn't the one who hurt you, so go back to church. Like, I don't want to come across in that way. What I recognize is that through my story, again, my actual connection with God that wasn't about the structure of the church, um, was what got me through. That was what he gave me, the voice, and held me and led me to a safe place and enabled me to lead my life as a widow, my family without a husband, my future, um, without a husband, and it was through God himself that he— that I found the help and the support and the confidence to be part of another church body. Like, moving, leaving that church didn't disconnect me from God because my relationship with God is, is always there. However, I believe that Christ loves his bride and that I'm to be part of and love a community and truly to not only be a blessing to others there, but have been so blessed. I mean, me and my family, we're able to be there for one another in really hard times when you can find a safe place. And it's not a perfect church, there's no such thing as that, um, but I am so thankful, um, yes, that he led me and guided me to, um, another community. So there are safe people and places out there. And it was so worth being connected, even though being connected in relationships allows us to be wounded. I believe life is all about relationships. And, and God loves his people and continues to grow all of us and that pastor, uh, my current pastor is the one that married my, uh, new husband and I. Married a couple years ago, and, um, I've been part of that community. He's baptized one of our kids. My stepdaughter moved here with him from another state and decided on her own she wanted to do that. There's even through the hard things and the struggles, there's these beautiful moments of faith and life that are happening there when I have engaged in that battle, to not quit and to not give up. And in fact, it makes me think of this reminder. I have a tattoo on my forearm. It says, "Fight the good fight, finish the race, keep the faith." And it's from 2 Timothy 4:7. And it's actually in my late husband's handwriting. It was from a letter he had written me in the past. And I needed that in front of me. And I still have it in front of me that this life isn't, um, unfortunately sitting in pool flotation devices with a nice drink in hand going down a lazy river. Like, we, um, we're in a battle here, and it can be shocking when you or someone you love takes a hit, um, from the enemy, or when life is ended. You know, it feels like too soon, um, But through this journey, recognizing like the Lord still going before me and leading me and me going forward with my kids. And I am, I am committed to staying and to fighting the good fight and finishing the race and keeping the faith and, and bringing Him glory because He's been so faithful and so good to me. Yeah.

So I want to ask you, because I know you work in suicide prevention, and I'll be really frank with you, I have mixed feelings about the term suicide prevention because it kind of implies that we can stop other people from doing what they're going to do. But I also believe that we need to do as much as we can. And you've got a very unique perspective in that you, you saw Andre go through what he went through and complete suicide, and you did what you could do. And then yourself, you know, and you, you know what it's like to be at that point. So talk about that. I don't know, that tension, I guess, between, you know, people are going to do what they can do, what they're going to do, and we need to do as much as we can do to keep them here.

I love that you bring this up, Brian, and I really, really appreciate— I don't know if you hear this a lot, but I really, really appreciate, um, You even naming the fact that it's what I would agree with, a big stance that I have in this and what I bring and hope to bring in the future through a book and through more talks and things that I do is that reality that I also, I agree with you, I deeply believe suicide is primarily about us. Suicide prevention is primarily about us equipping people who are struggling, not about other people keeping someone from doing something. And I agree with you. So, so speaking to what we have a lot right now in our, in our world and resources, I don't think those things are bad. I— it makes a world of difference. Absolutely. If someone can be there for you in your time of need, I mean, it can, it can change everything. It can save lives. You know, but a lot of our suicide prevention work right now is like, be nicer to each other, right? Like, you don't know if someone's struggling, so, um, be kinder. That's suicide prevention. And if you see someone struggling, like, we have ways of responding to that, and I'm, I'm all for that. Let me be clear, I really support training like SafeTalk, uh, QPR, if you're familiar with question, persuade, refer, you know, a lot of this that is equipping the world around people who are dying by suicide to, to support them better, you know, or saying, you know, there's a, there's a number you can call and all of that can be helpful in a lot of ways and saved lives and it continues to, and that's great. Where I like to focus, um, is helping people understand that you have the power in this battle to save your own life. Like, suicide prevention for me, and in what I hope to do more and more as I go forward, is helping people understand, like, I want to help you save your own life, like protect your own life. I think people need to understand how dangerous what I call the, the black box of suicide, that, that place in our brain where that happens, that window I talked about where suicide goes from something you'd never do. I mean, you can't even explain it to a child hardly, right? Like, don't— it doesn't even make sense. Like, suicide is like, what? And then to even when you're older, you're like, oh my gosh, that's terrible. That's sad. That's something I would never do. To that transition, to that being something you think about, to a possibility, to the solution, to your only way out. Like, that happens somewhere. And if we, if we can bring awareness and education to that, if people can really take ownership of keeping themselves out of that little black box in their brain, I believe we will save more lives, because I've experienced it. And I believe that, that, that place where that happens, it is so dangerous. It is so dangerous. And this isn't to shame anyone who's struggled. I have as well. But, but suicide, where we start thinking about it, you know, when I was low and struggling, those thoughts like, gosh, this is so hard. It would be better if I, if it was just over. It would be better for other people if I wasn't here. Like I had the thought, I was struggling so intensely, like trying to get all of my kids the help they needed and be the best I could for them. And I have such a high standard in my own mind of like mothering and the love I want to give. And I wasn't meeting it. And I'm like, oh, look, I'm like hurting the people that I'm supposed to be here for anyway. Like it's It's better for them that I'm not here. All of these, like, all of these lies, right? Where, where the word talks about taking your thoughts captive and, and how what is happening in our mind and with our thought is so— I mean, it isn't just a flippant, yeah, take your thoughts captive. I mean, I'm talking like, again, I want people to understand we're talking about war. We're talking about death. Where you have those thoughts, it can become, for a lot of us, and I've talked with a lot of other people who have struggled with suicidal thoughts, it's almost like this little compartment you go into that's like a place of, I don't know, we use it for comfort and relief. Like, oh gosh, if I just, I don't even know if all of this is worth it. It would be better if I wasn't. Like, we go to this place and think that It would be easier. We, we find some kind of consolation for ourselves. We— it's almost like, you know, we take these really dark thoughts and we take them like a weighted blanket and we just like pull them over ourselves and curl up in the fetal position and are like, oh yeah, like it's so hard and it's never going to change. And I'm like, we are in that space. And we have to wage war on those thoughts. Like, I mean, I really had to come to the place where I was like, I am not going to freaking play and flirt with these thoughts anymore. Like, I had been at the point I could hardly even— I could feel the weight physically. I would lay on the floor. I like remember one day, like, pushing some strawberries at my two little girls because I had no energy to like get up and feed them. And I laid on the floor the whole afternoon. I was thinking about ways of ending my life. I was like so low and so done. Like, if we recognize that if we never went in that space and we never walked ourselves through those steps, we wouldn't get to the end, right? Like where you think about it as a, oh, and you make it like you put rose-colored glasses on about it and there's a gun in your face. Like it's It's nothing to play with because every time I went into what I thought was a compartment, right? I go into that space, I'm like, I can control it. I just go to the space and I'm thinking about these things. And then, you know, you snap out of it and you go about the rest of your life. I have widows say, how could he have died by suicide? How, how could he? And they will find like search histories on his computer or things of like ways that he was looking at passing away. And then there's also like their retirement trip and stuff on there. They're like, 'How could he be planning to live and planning to die? Like, how can you do that?' And I'm like, 'Well, you go in and out of this box. Like, you think you can control it, and the more time you spend there, and then you start thinking about ways for you— like, how would I do that? How would I?' And it's like, when we spend time in that box, it's like— I got this picture— it's like digging a very, very deep trench, like a slope. And every time you get in there and you take it like a blanket of comfort, or you think any of the practicals through, or you think about why— again, sometimes we get there from anger at other people. Well, if these other people would just— I can't live my life because of what this is, and, or I feel like I'm a victim and I'm never going to have any control and it's never going to get any better. We are just like shoveling down deeper and deeper and deeper, this hole. Anytime we spend in there, and even— and with the enemy and his lies, and we like partner with him to dig this deep slope and to lubricate it up. And then when you are triggered or you are so low that you enter this like actively suicidal phase, which research has shown it's typically only hours minutes to hours long. Someday that really active suicidal phase could go longer than a day into multiple, but usually it's a pretty short window. Like, you've, you've been suicidal in the way you've spent time in that box, but when someone is like going to act, that's a relatively short window. And guess what? When you go into that box and you slide down that really steep, slippery, lubricated slope It got that way because of all the time that we had spent there before. Like, someone doesn't just wake up one day without ever having a thought, vast majority of the time, and becoming so low and thinking through a plan and carrying it all out in like an instant. It's like, we thought we could control that space. We thought it was an isolated black box of suicide, but our brains and our bodies as, like, we are, we are integrated beings, and that will seep through to everything. And it's not controllable. You can't control it except to take those thoughts captive as much as possible and getting help with where we have dug and paved and lubricated of of coming to new spaces and fighting it. Like, I remember I just— it was such a battle. I would— but I took it so seriously that when I had— when I heard thoughts and lies or had them, or I would like rebuke the enemy, I would like— I'm not like a cursing person. I would be like, shut the fuck up, Satan. Like, I am not going there. I'm not going there. And, and really letting other people in that can help, like having the light of some safe people who know. But our personal battle, if we can understand that we can prevent our own suicide, I think that that would change so much because it's so dangerous to play with. And when you get in that space, again, speaking from experience, and you're in that active, like, I'm acting on it now. You are not in your right mind. You are not in your right mind at all. I remember distinctly, like, thinking of my husband, where he was and where he walked to and what he did. I was like, if our little girl had been out there, like, if he had encountered her, you know, I'm like, oh my gosh, he would have like scooped her up and like brought her home. And lived like he would have lived. You're so disconnected from it. And that's what I try to encourage people who have lost someone with, like, it wasn't a reflection of you, or that they didn't love you enough, or of your worth or your value. Like, why wasn't I enough to keep them here? Or any— I'm like, they're not, they're not in their right mind. My second attempt, like, um, um, yeah, and I'll just say trigger warning here, people would like to not listen. Um, when— and I had no— this was not going to be a cry for help for me. Like, the way that I was going to go was going to go. Um, I was in so much pain, and like, my body knew. Like, my body knew what was coming, but my mind was just like completely. I was completely out of my own mind. I was like numb, dead, dissociated. Uh, my body was like trembling and shaking, and like I was vomiting. And I mean, like, my body was freaking out because it's like every, like, primal instinct that's like, you know, if you're standing, say, in front of something dangerous, an animal or a vehicle or whatever, you're like Oh my gosh, move out of the way, you know, like our bodies want to live, like it's in us. And it knew that I was like overriding that. And I was freaking out. And I was like, sorry, I can't do this anymore. You're not, you're not in a space to be thinking through all of the, the things that are really true. And really valuable. And, and that's my other piece of encouragement to people who are struggling, is that we, we feel like we're in a corner, like it's the only way out, right? It's like, I— all of this life the way it is, and I just can't keep doing it this way, and the only way out is like this way. But I encourage people that that is like the most radical, extreme choice, right? I mean, it just is because we've gone into that box and been thinking about that and we're not changing much often in our outward life. And so we're like, I can't keep living. This is my life. I can't keep doing this. So I'm out. And I'm like, you are worth every resource. Every resource to stay alive and to heal, like every bit of time, every bit of money, every effort. Like, what radical or extreme changes could be made before you go there? Like, where people think, I can't stop working, I can't move, you know, I can't— like, I can't go inpatient somewhere. I'm— what would that look like? What would people think of me? I have these responsibilities. And I'm like, but trying to, again, trying to put it together in a space outside of that box. I'm like, do you understand what happens when you're gone? Like, you did all of that. You did all of it. You stopped working. You, you know, you left everybody, you left everything. Like, there's so many even radical choices we could make to adjust our lives for a time that is so worth it before we would choose to leave completely. And so I encourage people to really think through that. Like, they are worth it. What? Oh, we don't have the money to get me help, but to really— for me to stop working and to get help to me. I'm like, what? What's going to happen when you go? Like, they would have paid every bit of every dime for you to stay. Yeah. So changing our thinking about that realm. Yeah. Is something I'm really passionate about.

Well, thanks. Thanks so much, Rachel, for that, because I I said, I'm all in favor of suicide prevention. But I, on the other hand, I'm really concerned when people do lose someone to suicide, that they take it on as a personal thing. You know, if I love them more, if I just seen this, or I just seen that, then, then they would still be here. And then that, that, you know, there's so much complication around this. So I just so greatly appreciate you being so, so open, with this. I think it's, you know, we talked before we got started and I said, is there anything that you don't want to talk about? You said no, I'm an open book. I appreciate that. I think that's very necessary because we, we do, we, we allow ourselves to suffer in silence. People have shame on both sides, whether they've been a suicide attempt or they've lost someone to suicide. So, and you've, uh, I gotta tell you, the best description I've ever heard of what it's like to be in that mind state because we look at people that do that and we, we, again, we heap more shame on them. They were weak, or they were selfish, or they were, you know, whatever. Um, and it's just, it's not true. It's more lies. As you said, we need, we need to come at this with the truth.

Yeah, it makes all the difference. It makes all the difference in the world. And, um, there's so much hope. That there is so much hope. And, uh, if we can, we can get that more deeply, it, it can really change so much. Because hope, hope Hopelessness are not just these intangible, floaty ideas out there. They're very tangible. Hopelessness kills people, and hope changes people's lives. And, and that's why I'm all about it. Yeah.

Yeah. I, I always say the one thing that we absolutely need more than anything else is hope. When we lose hope, then we're done. We— as long as we have hope that things can get better, that things will get better, then we can, we can endure pretty much anything. Um, so it's, it's keep that hope. And again, you're just, you're just, you're such a great example of that. So thank you. Um, we're coming to the end of our time. Could you tell people— I know that you work with, with women. Um, so tell people how they can reach you and what services you offer.

Yeah. Um, yep. If you're interested in connecting with me, you can go to hopespeaker.com. I write a weekly blog. I enjoy writing. And I also am at Hope Speaker on Instagram. And either Hope Speaker or Rachel Powell on Facebook. And yes, what I, um, am primarily focused on doing is serving my Christian widow sisters. So I do one-to-one coaching, and I also have a newly launched Christian widow community where, um, where we can be together. And not just— it's not an intangible Facebook group, it's where I can still pour into a community and reach more women at a time. And so, um, you can find out more about those things at hopespeaker.com. Uh, the Christian Widow Community specifically, you can find out more about at hopestronghold.com, because hope is our stronghold. It's a biblical idea, and we grieve with hope. And like you said, hope, it, it just changes everything because, um, we always have hope. In the Lord, and there is hope ahead, and anything other than that is a lie. Hope can shape our future and our lives, and we're creating our lives around us based on our thoughts and our thinking. So I focus a lot there on, like we talked about, changing and impacting ourselves and therefore our entire lives and future ahead.

Awesome. Well, Rachel, thanks for being here today. Have a great rest of your day.

Thank you. You too, Brian D Smith.

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