Grieving the Loss of a Friend | Hannah Rumsey on Platonic Love, Storytelling, and Healing

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Close your eyes and imagine. What are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain? The things that bring us grief are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Hi there, I'm Brian D Smith, and I want to welcome you to Grief 2 Growth. And whether this is your first time listening, or you've been with us on this journey for a while, I'm really glad you're here. On this show, we navigate the toughest parts of life together. We talk about loss, pain, but we also talk about healing and purpose. We ask the deep questions like, who are we? Where do we come from? Why are we here? Where are we going? My goal is to give you tools, stories, insights to help you grow through grief and move through meaning. Today's episode shines a light on a type of grief that often goes unspoken, and that's friend loss. Our friend is— our guest and friend is Hannah Rumsey. She's a writer, performer, and a podcaster based in Chicago. Since losing her close friend Lauren in 2015, Hannah's poured her heart into exploring the deep impact of losing a friend. It's a grief that's often overlooked and misunderstood. And just on a personal note, this is very personal to me today because I lost a dear friend just 4 months ago, as of the time of recording this. So from her one-woman show 42 Days of Summer to her memoir in progress, L is for Lauren, Hannah has used creativity and storytelling to process her own loss. But she didn't stop there. She went on to found Friends Missing Friends, a podcast and community designed to support others navigating this unique and often disenfranchised grief. So in our conversation, we'll explore why grieving a friend can be so complicated, the doubts and anxieties that can follow this type of loss, and I will talk about how Hannah found healing through writing and through community.

Community.

We'll also talk about what real support can look like when someone in your life is grieving a friend and why honoring those losses matters more than we might think. By the end of this episode, hopefully you'll have a deeper understanding of how friendship loss shapes us and how you can show up for yourself and for others who are walking this path. And as always, at the end of the episode, feel free to continue the conversation. Join me on my Substack at grieftogrowth.substack.com.. And with that, I'd like to welcome Hannah to Grief 2 Growth.

Hi, thank you so much. It's so great to be here.

It's really great to have you here today, Hannah. As I was telling you earlier, I got your email, you said you wanted to— you were interested in coming on the program right after I had the loss of my friend Mike, which was just a few months ago. And I want to say, first of all, I'm sorry for the loss of your friend Lauren. I know that's— it's obviously changed your life in many different ways. But before we get into all that, let's talk about Lauren. Tell me about Lauren, your friend.

Yeah, I— Lauren, it's— isn't it interesting whenever you're asked to describe someone because people are so complex and it's like, okay, how can I describe a whole entire human in one paragraph? And it's impossible. I feel like I'm barely scratching the surface even as I write a book. But the best I can describe her, and knowing this would never fully describe her, is that she's the funniest person I've ever known. And everyone I met at the funeral and afterwards said the same thing. So many, many people said she's the funniest person they've ever known. And she was so incredibly silly and goofy. And like, I give this example because it's so specific and unique where I was with her at— we met at a summer camp in 2009, and I was 17 and she was 15. And we were just walking around, and with no warning at all, she just starts— she runs off and starts galloping like a horse. Mm-hmm. Just for fun, because she felt like it. It's like what a 5-year-old would do, you know, where they're just full of such joy and they just act on impulse.

Mm-hmm.

And I remember being so shocked. Because it was so unexpected. And then I just joined in behind her, and we were galloping together like these teenagers. We weren't children, you know, but we were at heart. And I remember the feeling of— I remember thinking this so distinctly, like, I was so not embarrassed, and like nothing could embarrass me. When I was next to her. And it was like that feeling of like when you're with a certain person and they really click with you, it's like you're kind of invincible, honestly. Mhm.

So obviously her life impacted you, you know, quite a bit. I mean, this was, this was 10 years ago she passed, and it's still something that, that resonates with you. So Why do you think, uh, that friendship made such a deep and lasting impact on you?

Yeah, I think there's a lot of, a lot of, um, moving parts to that. And one is that we met at a time when I was incredibly insecure and lonely. And it was at the— I like to describe it as the cusp between childhood and adulthood. Like, 17 is kind of a bizarre age. Like, you're still kind of a child and you're still almost an adult. And all of my peers in, in high school wanted to grow up and were like ready to get out of the house and have a car and like, you know, all these things. And I wasn't ready for that yet. I was grieving the end of childhood, um, actually before I even knew that that's what I was— that that's what was happening, um, and Then, you know, at the time I really felt like I didn't click with people. I kind of describe it as I feel like I was on an AM frequency and everyone else was on FM, which is very INFJ of me. We always feel different than everybody else. And then it's like I meet her and we're like on the same AM frequency, like to the 10th digit, to the 100th digit. And, um, that summer, like, while at school, I was really quiet and moody, at least from my perspective I was, um, and felt like I didn't have many friends. And then I go to the summer camp, and it's like she just cracks me open. And like, I describe it as like more words and tears and laughter flowed through me that summer in 6 weeks than they normally would do in a year. So just that feeling of like she came at a very particular time in my life when I needed someone like her. And she— I really feel like she helped me to access a certain part of myself that I was having trouble accessing before. And I just came alive around her. Yeah, that's kind of the best way I can describe it.

Yeah, sure. Absolutely. So it sounds like you guys were friends for what, about 6 years before her— before her passing? And so tell me about that, you know, when she passed and you're going through that, your grief.

Yeah, so it was kind of an unusual friendship and maybe not unusual, but in that most of the friendship, the brick and mortar of it was those 6 weeks in person at the camp. After that, it was long distance. She lived in Pennsylvania and I lived in Virginia. And we tried, I mean, so many times, probably over 20 times if not more, to meet up. But we were so busy with college and it just never ended up working out. Um, and I've had to like tell myself over the years, because I've had a lot of regret about that, of not just dropping everything and visiting her, is that we thought we had a lifetime, right? We thought we had 80 years, so they didn't feel like there was a rush. And we were comfortable in our friendship that there was no panic. There was— we would talk over the phone and on Skype and like that. We— yeah, I don't know, I can't speak for her, but I felt very comfortable in our friendship at the time. But sadly, yeah, I didn't— I only saw her one other time shortly after camp, and then I didn't see her in person again.

Oh wow, okay. And her passing, was it a sudden thing?

Yes, it was very sudden, um, and unexpected. Um, and what happened was she was studying abroad in Spain in 2015. She was a rising senior, I believe, um, in college. And, uh, it was she was going to have her birthday over there, July 19th. And we— the last message we said to each other was I'd post on her Facebook wall because it was back when people did that.

Um, some of us still do that as older people.

Oh yeah, I didn't mean to bash it, but it's been a long time since I've posted on anyone's wall.

Yeah, my daughter.

Oh yeah. Um, and I posted something like, you know, "I miss you." You know, "How's Spain going?" And she was like, "Oh my gosh, yes, it's amazing. Like, I can't wait to talk. We'll Skype as soon as I get back to the States mid-August." And so that was the last communication we had. And then July 19th, it was her birthday. So I posted happy birthday on her wall. And then I scrolled down to read other birthday posts, but it was just rest in peace posts. And that was how I found out she had died. And there were lots of articles on there, and my brain wasn't— like, anyone who's experienced shock, yeah, like, it doesn't feel real for like at least 5 minutes, or at least that's how I experienced it. So just like, it wasn't computing. It didn't make sense. So at first I felt nothing, just numbness. And I was reading these articles and they all said the same thing over and over, which was, um, you know, Penn State senior dies falling off balcony while studying abroad in Spain. And I was like, but that doesn't— and it's like your brain's not thinking logically because my— I was thinking, but I just talked to her.

Right.

I just talked to her last week.

Right.

So she couldn't be dead. And then after reading like 10 articles, it hit me. And I remember I fell to the ground and started screaming.

Yeah, I'm so sorry. I, you know, as we're, as we're having this conversation, my daughter was 15 when she passed away. It happened to be in 2015. And it was, it was sudden. And just, just a few months ago, a few weeks ago, actually, I got a hold of an app that allowed me to get into her phone because it was backed up to my iCloud. So I got in her phone, I started reading the text messages coming in from the kids. She was, she was a sophomore in high school, going into her sophomore year. And I just felt so bad for those kids because that reaction, like you were saying, I just talked to you yesterday, this, this can't be true. Um, and, and seeing that, you know, on Facebook So I can relate to that shock and that disbelief. And, you know, like I said, I saw these kids going through that. So I appreciate you acknowledging that horrific feeling that someone has when you lose a friend like that and you have to hear about it through some, you know, through a Facebook post.

Yeah. Well, that's so recent that you were going through those texts. Oh my gosh, yeah, that— yeah, it's like there's no— it's hard to explain, but there's no good way to find out that someone died. It's like it'll be horrible and traumatic no matter what, right? Um, but yeah, there's something about finding out in such an impersonal way, like on Facebook wall, that's really like— that was really tough to find out that way.

Yeah, absolutely. So for, for you, um in terms of, did you attend her service or how were you involved in the things after that?

Yeah, so I am so grateful to her mother who has sadly since passed away a few years after her daughter's death. But her mother was so incredibly welcoming. To me and involving me and keeping me in the loop and sending me messages, um, because I reached out to her on Facebook and then we just kind of— up until she died, we had a back and forth on Facebook. Um, so because of that, I felt, uh, more involved than I would have been otherwise. But I did go to the service and, um, Yeah, I just— from what I remember, I mean, I remember every moment of the service, um, but a detail that I often tell is that, like, I feel like most funerals, at least that I've been to, I can't speak for all funerals, of course, but it's so, like, quiet. And it's like my grief was like a hurricane, and like I wanted to scream and yell, but like you had to just have polite tears.

Yeah.

And I remember that feeling so off and so wrong, and I was shaking from the effort of clenching every single muscle in my body. So, um, as much as, uh, the memorial service was a release in some ways, in other ways it felt just awful.

Yeah, yeah, kind of closed off. So, you know, we took— we have different types of— not different types of losses, but we have like— I'm part of an organization called Helping Parents Heal. So it's an organization for parents who have lost children. Then there's different, you know, so people, when someone loses a child, we all say, you know, it's a terrible thing, or someone losing a parent, or a spouse, you know, but friend loss, and from your experience, how is it different in terms of people acknowledging your grief?

Yeah, it's— from my experience and from many people I've talked to, it's very different, um, both in just how people would treat me and then how the world treats me. Um, and an example is I took 2 days off work, but then I just went back to work because I didn't know what else to do, right? And also, by the way, you don't get bereavement leave when a friend dies. And so I go back to work and people were also incredibly kind. Of course, I remember distinctly the ones that weren't so kind. But, you know, coworkers gave me hugs and said kind things. And then one said, like, diminished it immediately. She looked at me and she was like, you probably won't think about your friend much anymore one day. And I was like, I remember shaking, like, again, with the feeling of like, you have no idea. Yeah. Um, yeah, so just kind of from the get-go getting diminished in, in ways like that. And then also just in that I couldn't find a, a group that was specifically for friend loss. And even to this day, and I, I feel like where it's like they've got to be out there somewhere, right? But maybe just the Google algorithm is catching on. I don't know. But like, when I Google it or look online, like, I cannot find— I maybe found like one. Like, it's— they're just not a lot out there.

Yeah, I truly believe that. I, I've worked with people going through different types of losses and even finding, like, um, like I said, I'm part of Helping Parents Heal, but like sibling loss, when someone loses a sibling, we don't really have, you know, a lot of support for that. And, you know, there are these types of losses that are overlooked or, you know, kind of swept under the rug, like losing a friend or sometimes losing a pet, you know, and all these losses are very real. And I really appreciate you, you know, acknowledging this. And again, you know, this being 10 years on after your friend, how it's still impacting you. And I see with my daughter's friends, and it's, it's wild because she was 15 when she passed and I remember thinking, well, they probably won't think about her much, you know, once they go to college and stuff like that, 5, 6 years later. You know, in their case, like 3 years later. And they still do. They still acknowledge her. They still talk about her. Uh, we're doing a memorial project for her right now, and almost everyone we contacted, they wanted to be involved. So, wow, you know, a friendship continues, that love continues even after your friend, you know, does pass on, even if you happen to be young when it happens.

Yes. Yeah, I agree with that. That's so beautiful that you're doing a memorial project together.

Oh, yeah. Well, you know, and it's, again, it's the same thing, you know, for you, you're doing a memorial project for your friend, you're writing this book, and you've started this organization to help others that are going through this. So it is, it's obviously made a huge impact on your life. And people do, they they create parts of our lives that would— that'll never be the same again. Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief, most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up. So you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper, thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Podcasts, essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there.

Yeah, it's, it's absolutely true. And I, I feel like in general the world, um, the world undervalues or like undercuts love. Like, I think honestly everywhere, like, diminishes, you know, uh, yeah, diminishes what it is. And so I think like platonic love, and specifically like friendship platonic love, I guess, is I feel like one of the most diminished. And I, I don't know why. Like, I, I'm like, why, why is that any less real than romantic love? Like, it's different, but it doesn't have to mean that it's less.

Yeah, that's a really good point, you know. And I was listening to something the other day and they were talking about it in English, you know, we have this one word, love, that we go from, you know, I love hot dogs to I love my mother. And it's the same, you know, it's the same word. Yeah. And, you know, so, you know, relationships, friendships, and I was telling you earlier before we got started, and I mentioned it earlier in the podcast, my friend Mike passed away in April. But in many ways, and I don't know if my family will hear this or not, but in many ways, my friends are closer than my brothers and my sisters. Because we choose our friendships, and we choose to be in relationship with those people. Family, you know, you may or may not be close to your family, you know, in a sense. But our friends, we choose, and we choose to go through life together. And there's a very old saying that blood is thicker than water. And the way I've heard the original of that saying was, "The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb," meaning that the people that we choose to do life with, those are the bonds that we form. So our little group, our, our 6 couples, we call ourselves family. You know, we're like, we're friends, but we're also, we're family. We, we do life together. And so that, you're right, we do diminish that, and that, and it's not acknowledged. And you mentioned one example of someone who kind of diminished your, your relationship. Are there, do you have other examples as well?

Yeah, and it's It's a lot of small— I'm doing air quotes— small moments, um, that aren't so small. Um, but I had this friend at the time that— I mean, this experience taught me that we weren't as close as I thought, um, because she treated it so terribly. But, um, like, for instance, I, I think Lauren had been dead about a week. Like, it was literally had just happened, and I was at this other friend's apartment, and I was crying and telling her about it. And she just kind of looked at me and was like, why haven't I heard about this friend? Why didn't you tell me about Lauren? And I was like, what do you mean? She was like, I just feel like— I feel like if she meant so much to you, I should know who she is. Like, I've literally never heard of her. So like, framing it like because I hadn't told her Yeah, then that friendship must not be important. And I was like, what? Like, I don't tell everybody about everybody all the time, right?

Right.

Like, it was just such a bizarre response that I still don't quite understand. But like, it was also diminishing it. It was like, well, she can't possibly have meant that much to you. Like, you must be overreacting. It's like what she was implying.

Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny you say small, but, you know, I call it death by a thousand cuts. It's like these little things that really add up, where people are dismissing your grief. And one of the things that I've realized about grief is, it's really important to have our grief witnessed, it's really important to have our grief acknowledged. And people do it with all types of grief, they'll do it, you know, sometimes unintentionally, I guess, but you know, someone might lose a child, and they might say something like, well, you're young, you could have another child, or, you know, they lose a spouse and say, you could, you know, you could always marry, you know, you could always get married again. And with the friend, you know, it's kind of like, well, they were just a friend, right? They weren't, they weren't like a blood relative, so it really shouldn't matter that much to you. So I— your, your organization and your, and your podcast, just that acknowledgment for people, I'm sure, is very helpful.

Yeah, I, I hope so, because that's the crux of what I want people to feel Um, if they ever stumble across me or my content or Friends Missing Friends is, oh my gosh, my grief is valid. Um, because every day in a thousand different ways, like you were saying, the thousand mini cuts, um, we are told that it's not. And, um, like that disenfranchisement gets internalized. And like, I was having all these doubts in my head, like, because I'm literally told by another friend and other, other people, like, are you sure you were as close as you thought? And so then I'm questioning myself, like, oh my God, am I like making this a bigger deal? Like, what, uh, like just questioning myself. And that is like, all of that is feeding into a feeling of like, oh, my grief isn't valid and my love isn't real.

Yeah.

And I don't want anyone else to feel that way. Yeah.

Well, that's the thing, you know, when we go through grief, It's a hard enough thing to go through if it's, if it's not complicated by, by other, you know, factors, you know, just this losing that person and missing them and coming to grips with how our relationship with them, you know, has changed. But then to have your grief, as you said, dismissed, then that starts to cause you to have internal dissonance, where, as you said, okay, maybe my grief isn't really real. Maybe I, maybe I'm overreacting. Maybe I don't have the right to have these feelings.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And what's wild is that, like, while I'm having all those thoughts, when I finally started talking about it, um, in my podcast and talking to other people, they were telling me their doubts, and they were the same thoughts I was having. And so I feel like it's actually incredibly common for people who had lost friends and are getting dismissed to have these thoughts. And yet we're all having them separately on our own, quietly.

Right, right.

And I'm like, no, we need to talk about it.

It's so important to have that validation that, as you said, that just to have your feelings validated, to know that I— yeah, this is a common human experience. It's not just me that's going through this. So tell me about your project, 42 Days of Summer.

Yeah, so in 2020, um, you know, obviously when the pandemic started, um, I took a, uh, storytelling class. And we started with, uh, had 3 levels. We started with the 5-minute story, and then we turned it into a 20-minute story, and then a 1-hour show. And I wrote mine about my friendship and grief of Lauren. And I was so grateful for those baby steps because at first I was reading a 5-minute story and I was bawling and could barely get through it. And it was like I needed to take those small steps to work towards having a 1-hour show. And then when I performed the 1-hour show on Zoom and my family and friends all came because it was COVID and they had nothing else to do, so I had a big audience. Which was the witnessing that you're talking about. Like, it needs to be witnessed. And I kind of had stumbled upon this. Like, I didn't think, how do I want to be witnessed? Oh yeah, I'll do this and then I'll invite my friends and family, then they'll have to witness me. It just kind of like happened to happen that way. And then afterwards, like, just the light— I felt so much lighter because I had just been witnessed by the most important people in my life. Wow. Which, like, you have to go searching for that, unfortunately. Like, it's hard to actually get that in everyday life.

Yeah. So what's— what is this? Is it a— how do you perform the show?

Yeah, so it's— the show is, um, I have a through line first of the present day where I'm, uh, acting out, um, kind of little scenes where I am experiencing grief in everyday life. And for example, I, in one scene, I'm invited to a Halloween party. And my— and this is real— my costume was Joy from Inside Out, even though it's ironic because I was sad. And like, I'm talking to this other young woman, and she's telling me how she's best friends with this other girl, and they've been together every year since kindergarten, and they'll be friends forever. And I get triggered, and I'm like, in my head— I don't say this out loud— but I'm like, I don't want to hear about your friend. Like, I can't hear about other people's happiness. Um, so like, all these little moments where like the grief is— just keeps popping up and like holding me back and like I'm kind of unable to move through it. And then as I'm going through those scenes, I'm also going back in time and weaving through our friendship that summer, um, and how I ultimately, after her service, go into her bedroom and find a box. And in the box are what we called train letters. And those It's an interlochen tradition where when you leave, you give everyone goodbye letters, but we called them train letters because it was like you read them on the train going home. And I opened the box and I went through the letters to try to find mine, and I found it all the way at the bottom of the pile. It was the very last letter. And the thought I have when I see the letter at the bottom is at first a crushing sadness. That she put my letter in the box and then never looked at it again.

Hmm.

And it's actually taken me literally 10 years to actually see the new perspective that our friendship was so current and ongoing that she didn't need to read the letter every day to remind herself that—

I actually just got chills when you said that. That is such a beautiful and important shift. One of the things that when I'm, when I work with clients is I'm like, everything is about perspective. We tell ourselves stories. And a lot of times we tell ourselves stories that are actually damaging to ourselves that, you know, so you could have the perspective, oh, my letter was the least important letter, she put it in the box, and she never pulled it out again. But it's just as valid to say she didn't need to pull it out because our friendship was was fresh and was current, as you just said. So that is a big step toward healing our grief, is when we can start to make those shifts in perspective from that negative thing, which is oftentimes, for some reason, our first thought. It's the negative thing. It wasn't that important to me. Or why didn't I tell everybody else about my friend Lauren? It's like So yeah, I love that. And I just want to acknowledge that, that shift that you made and how important that is, you know, for your healing. And I want people that are listening to understand that when you tell yourself a story, if it's, if it's not helpful, then maybe don't tell yourself that story anymore.

So beautifully said. Um, yeah, I absolutely agree. And what's amazing is that what helped me to discovered that. And I believe that, you know, Lauren's still present. And I think her spirit helped me come to this conclusion. Because I was writing, and I actually wrote a scene imagining that I had died, and she was going through my bedroom. And I imagined what my room would have been like if she hadn't died, and it would be different. Because now that she's died, her room, her letter is in a place of honor. Before she died, her letter was stuck in a Ziploc baggie with other letters, and I imagine her finding that.

That is— wow, that's brilliant. That's awesome. Uh, that, that's such a— again, such a healthy perspective. And that's, you know, I was just talking with a friend earlier today about my friend Mike who passed, and, you know, trying to get some advice as to how I can, you know, help with his family. And she's a bereavement expert counselor and stuff. And we were talking about, again, these ideas of shifting perspectives, of, of our brains are, are plastic. We can tell ourselves this story, or we can tell ourselves that story. And what I think is very helpful, whether you believe— and I believe our loved ones are still with us. I'm, I'm glad to hear you believe that. I think that's a very healthy perspective. Whether you believe that or not, you can imagine, okay, what if it were that the shoe were on the other foot? What would they find if they went into my bedroom at this time? And yeah, that's, that's really, that's, again, that's a brilliant thing that you did. And you can pass those types of things forward as you're helping people go, you know, go through their own grief, as they, you know, come across the work that you're doing.

Thank you. And I also do want to acknowledge that, like, it can take time to get out of the fog first. Yeah, you can start doing those mental switches.

Absolutely.

Probably the first few years, I don't even think my brain would have been capable of that. So it did take— it took time.

It does. It does. There is— there is a very real thing. We call it grief fog, grief brain, whatever you want to call it, you know, where there's that, that initial shock that you talked about where you just don't believe it. And a lot of people for the first even year, you know, they're like, I was walking around in a fog, they won't remember, you know, what's going on. People think they're losing their minds because they're like, I came into this room, I forgot what I came in here for. So those things are very real. So the shifts that we're talking about, again, we have to acknowledge they're not easy. And you're not going to make them in the first 6 months, probably not in the first year, maybe not in the first couple of years. But slowly over time, you know, you can start to make those shifts.

Yeah, I agree. And I also I think that while people can approach it from whatever avenue is best for them, storytelling and writing was what helped me, was kind of my door into that, which might be the case for other people as well.

Yeah, I believe it is for a lot of people. Um, and, and the thing is, we are meaning-making creatures. We, we are storytellers. We are meaning-making. And, uh, I was talking with the client just the other day, and she's like, you know, I keep trying I'm going to find meaning in this. I'm like, stop beating yourself up for that, because that's what we do.

Yeah.

So you're, you're going to find some meaning in it, even if people convince themselves that the meaning is there is no meaning, that everything is just random. But we're, we are going to tell ourselves one story or another. And I, and I tell people, try on different stories like you try on a shirt and see which story fits, which one works for you, which one makes you feel comfortable. You don't have to carry that initial story. You don't have to carry the one that you, that you first came to, like, my letter's not valued, where you, you flipped it in its head. And the interesting thing is the facts don't change. The, the letter was still at the bottom of the box, right? That is the objective fact. But the story we tell ourselves about it can be very different.

Yeah, I, it's amazing how prominent stories are in this. And I really learned that when I did David Kessler's grief education program a couple months ago. He had a whole class on the stories we tell ourselves. And it was like mind-opening. I was like, wow. And he was even like, there's so many ways to approach dismantling these unhealthy stories. But one was like, kind of questioning it almost in like a fake court of law and being like, okay, can you prove that it's an undeniable fact that like, you know, the perspective you have is true? And then you kind of realize like, oh wait, no, it's— I can't.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the first question always to me when I— if you have a— if you have a thought, the first question is, is this— is this true? Do I know this to be a fact? You know, because many— so many times we'll assign intent or motive to something. So it might be true that somebody said a certain thing or did a certain thing. And we'll say, well, what they meant was, you know, this, and that part of it may or may not be true. So questioning assumptions is very, very important, you know, as we're, as we are telling ourselves these stories. So how important was I in this person's life? How important were they in my life? And again, it's, I just want to commend you for coming to these I think really healthy ways of looking at it. So you mentioned earlier that you feel like Lauren is still with you. Do you feel like— I mean, she's made a huge impact on your life. Do you think this is something that was planned, or what are your thoughts on, on that from, from a spiritual perspective?

Um, do you mean like her death was planned, or what do you mean, or your, your relationship in general? Oh, Yeah, that's interesting. I, I don't actually know my beliefs on that, whether like our, our connection was planned beforehand by fate or whatever you want to call it. That I don't know. But I do definitely like— I have had really intense signs from her, um, on several occasions that to me feel undeniable and have helped like reinforce the feeling that like she's there. It's just, you know, there's communication barrier between me and the other side except for those moments.

So tell me about one of the signs.

Yeah, so okay, so I'm trying to think of the kind of the best one to share. Well, one, one sign is that it was— well, first thing about signs, like, from what I've learned is that the timing and the feeling is really important. So it was New Year's Eve. I'm pretty sure it was 2 years after she died. So it's super fresh. And I was on the train to a party in Chicago. Feeling sad, which was the status quo at the time, and, um, thinking about her and just how, like, whoop-de-doo, another year that she won't see was like the thoughts I was having. Um, and then my phone in my purse started buzzing. Um, but it was like not a notification buzz, it was like a Morse code buzz. Um, And I was like, that's weird. And I looked and there was no notifications. And then I kind of dropped it, and then it was going again. And I had the thought or the feeling of like, Lauren, like, is that you? And then it started like buzzing like crazy, like, like, in response. Um, and then I, I was the person, you know, talking to my phone on the train that night. Uh, I don't know if what people were thinking. But, and then I started asking her questions. I, you know, looking at my phone, asking her questions, and it would be silent as I asked questions. And when I finished the question, it would respond.

Oh, wow.

Like Morse code. And I remember being so frustrated because I couldn't understand what she was saying. Like, it was just buzzing. And then I asked a few questions. And it's funny because it's like you think you'll have a million questions, but like the most important is like, are you at peace? And then you kind of run out of questions. And then it was silent for a while, and we were both silent. And then I got off the train, and I had this sudden panic, and I was like, oh my God, because it hadn't buzzed in a while. I was like, oh my God, oh my God, don't leave me. And then it buzzed 3 times, and I heard, I'm still here.

Oh wow.

And so that, to me, that whole interaction felt like a sign from her. And like, I was sort of able to have a conversation and Um, yeah, that was— that's one, but I've had others as well. But I'm so grateful for anything I can— wow, I'll take anything I can get.

So you said you heard, "I'm still here." Was that in your head or was it through the phone? That came through the phone?

Oh, it was in my head.

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, that's amazing. You know, it's really interesting for me anyway, um, I was just talking with someone earlier today about, you know, getting electronic communications. And I interviewed a guy pretty recently, he did a movie called Calling Earth. And it's all about ITCs, or instrument transcommunications, electronic voice phenomena, stuff like that. This stuff is very real. It's very, very well documented. My daughter has communicated to me through my phone in various ways too. And so some people think that, you know, we're going to be able to do this with with AI. And that's kind of one of the big debates, you know, right now. But, you know, when you tell me that, you know, about, about Lauren communicating that way, um, I've heard— I'm— it's amazing. It always still amazes me. But I interviewed a woman whose husband had passed away, and he starts sending her messages through WhatsApp. And, and I was just talking to a client the other day, and she doesn't really believe in signs. And she goes, Yeah, I got, um, an Instagram notification from my husband that he had, you know, made a post or something. And when she went there, it was like blank, but she did have the notification. And, and she and her daughters were trying to explain it because we would do that. How did this happen? And it's like, yeah, well, maybe they got his phone number. It's like, but they wouldn't have his account, you know? It's like, so these things, they definitely, you know, do happen. And I'm— and the fact that you acknowledge that, that I could tell that that was a big relief for you just hearing from her.

It's a huge relief. And yeah, it's, it's actually, it's so incredibly comforting to hear that there's so many stories like this. And I've, I've heard several and it, yeah, kind of just like reaffirms that it's real.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's, and that goes back to our thing earlier about one of the reasons why it's important for things to be witnessed, because if it just happens to us and it's one-off, we start trying to explain it away, and we start saying, you know, you know, we'll come up with all kinds of things, right? But if we hear that it's happening to other people also, that tends to validate that experience, even for ourselves. You know, my daughter, the one that's craziest to me, because there's so many, but I have a podcast, obviously. And one day I looked at my podcast app on my phone, I think I was using Apple Podcasts at at the time, and all of the podcast cover art had changed to this picture of Shayna. And it's one of my favorite pictures ever. She's like 2 years old and she's building with these big giant Lego blocks, and she's— I think she was kneeling and the blocks were like up over her head. And we walked in the dining room and they're like, how did she do that? But all the podcast cover art for every episode had changed to that. And I'm like, gosh. Okay, this is weird. How did this happen? I get on my computer and I look at my Buzzsprout feed and the COVID art was all normal there. It was normal everywhere else. It was only on my phone that they had all changed. And I'm glad I thought to take a screenshot of it because if someone told me the story, I would not believe it. And then they went back and, you know, I'm like— and I'm an engineer and I've worked in IT for a long time. I'm like, How did that happen? How did it change to that particular picture on every single— not just one episode, but every episode?

Wow.

And then change back.

Oh my gosh, I got chills. Yeah. Wow.

So I guess that's why, again, the work that you're doing is so important that people can share these things. And, uh, and another thing I want to go back to when it comes to the friends— and this, I'm trying to jump in back, but I want to cover this because you said it earlier— um, there are people that we find that we think are going to step up and, and be there for us, and then there are people that we find that don't. I think you, you mentioned something like that. So did that happen for you?

Yes. Um, Yeah, and it was with one particular friend, and I would never like oust her or anything, um, but yeah, I just, you know, it's like when you're at your lowest and you really need someone's support is when you kind of see kind of the true measure of, of their ability to support, um, and there were like several instances where she was not helpful and even cruel, um, and jealous of this friend who had died. And instead of like being compassionate, she was jealous that, that she had existed. And it was just like, wow. Um, but yeah, it's— and I've heard this from so many people that sometimes you're like shocked by who steps up and who like does not.

Yeah.

And it changes relationships, unfortunately. Like it can end relationships.

It can. And again, I wanted to, I wanted to talk about that. Because first of all, when it happens to us, you know, we can be surprised, we can, we can take it personally. And given some distance now, for me, it's been 10 years. I'm like, I don't hold any animosity to those people. I just, I look at it as like, I look at people skilled or unskilled, and they're just not skilled. It's, it's not that they had bad intentions, bad motives, that they don't love me or care for me. It's just that they weren't able to handle it for whatever reason. Some people don't like being around people who are sad. It makes them feel uncomfortable. They don't know what to say, so they decide not to say anything. Um, there's something about— sometimes loss can feel contagious. It's like, oh, if this happened to you, you're kind of icky because, you know, bad things are happening around you. So there's all kinds of things that people go through, and So there's that. So I want to, you know, put that out there for people to understand that could happen to you. But there's also those pleasant surprises, the people who step up that you didn't think were going to be there.

Yeah, that's true. And sometimes it's like a stranger or your trumpet student's mother, like, you know, like, uh, yeah, it's— it often totally surprises you. And I I love how you described that, like skilled versus unskilled as far as dealing with death and grief. Because there's a lot of days where I still feel petty and angry towards people who said things that weren't helpful. But yeah, that what you said is, is much more true and much more healthy and mature. And I'm, I'm still, I'm still working on that.

Yeah, it's a process. And it's not, I tell my clients, it's not fair. That we, the person in grief, has to be the person giving grace to other people.

Yeah.

Because we are going through and we are so spending energy and stuff that now I have to forgive this person for being an idiot. But if you can get there, it's very helpful. And like I said, I wasn't that way at first. I have a couple of people that just literally disappeared.. And I'm like, wow, you know, I would not expect this. Um, but you know, it's just something I choose. I've chosen over the years. It doesn't happen overnight to just not focus on that.

Yeah, that's beautiful.

So Hannah, tell me about your podcast.

Yeah, so I, I thought of doing a podcast I think it was 2021. It was in the middle of the pandemic. And I remember the name Friends Missing Friends just kind of came to me. And I even like workshopped other names and ended up just sticking with the first one. But I really wanted— it came from almost a necessity to talk about it and to talk to people. And I really wanted to have these deep conversations And I kind of— and I say this jokingly, even though it's kind of true, is that it can be a much easier ask to ask someone, hey, do you want to talk on my podcast, than to say, hey, do you want to talk about death for an hour?

Yeah.

Like, I don't know, I just— I get access to conversations that I would not have otherwise had access to. And the healing— I feel like I've healed so much just talking to other people and learning like, oh, wow, so many other people are having the same doubts, the same struggles, you know, the same thoughts. Um, and I, I also like— I want to bring that realization to others as well. I want other people to feel less alone. That's the goal.

So you have, um, who are your guests? Are they people who have lost friends, or are there other people that you have on?

Yeah, so I have, um, different people on. So I, I like to think of it as a Venn diagram where I talk about grief, I talk about friendship, and I talk about friend loss, because I feel like to really dig into friend loss, it helps to also touch on the others, even as separate entities. Yeah. Um, yeah, so I have some episodes where I just talked about friendship, some episodes where I just about grief. And I've had some grief experts, um, on. And, and then definitely times where I talk to people who have lost friends and they tell their story and, and we talk about it.

Yeah, interesting. Yeah. And, and, um, friendship, you know, is interesting, I think, in today's society because I know there's like an epidemic of loneliness and, and people are trying to figure out friendships and how do I find friends and how do I keep friends. So I— do you talk about things like that as well?

I do, yes. And I often reference the book that I highly recommend to anyone who wants to learn more about friendship and how to keep friends. It's called Platonic by Dr. Marissa G. Franco. Hmm. And it's actually all about how to make and keep friends as an adult, because it is hard. And we're not crazy, it is actually really hard.

Yeah.

Um, because when we're young, we're in an environment where, like school, where we're around people all the time and we see them every day, which is the environment of cultivating friendships. And in adulthood, that can a lot of times be really hard to come by.

Yeah.

And, um, so she talks about the effort it takes, and she even like lays out steps, which like, people like me who are shy, I need those steps.

I need it laid out. Sounds great and so needed. My, uh, my nephew who just graduated from college, so he's probably 22 or 23, um, just moved near where I am couple hours away from his family. And, you know, I was telling him, I said, you know, when I was, when I was his age, we, we worked in an office, you know, so you had officemates. Uh, people went to church, so you met people at church. Um, you may maybe meet people at the gym, stuff like that. And now people, you know, they're working from home. A lot of people are not going to church anymore. And I was like, it's it's going to take effort, you know. And I was working with a client that I'm like, okay, well, let's— what are some things you can do? Now they can— there's meetup groups, right? So you can get on, you can do meetup, but it's going to— you can't just— it just doesn't just happen naturally.

Yeah. And it— it— that's absolutely right. And like, you have to put the effort in, and it's exhausting sometimes, but like, it will pay. The rewards will come back. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Yeah. Well, you mentioned the book. I was thinking there's a guy, Johann— oh, shoot, I can't think of his last name. I think it's Hari. Johann H-A-R-I. But the book is called Lost Connections. And my daughter's in the mental health field. And he was checking out like all the people on antidepressants and anti-anxiety drugs and stuff. And they found that, you know, those things are not as effective as the doctors would like you to believe, especially over the long term. They do help some people. But they call it Lost Connections because it's like when they would find people and just give them connections, a lot of people naturally kind of, you know, came out of some of that stuff. But we don't, we don't have, you know, those connections a lot of times anymore. And we feel weird about, you know, being platonic friends, you know, ask. And, you know, I think it's, I think when male and female, it's not, we're not as biologically different as people say we are. I think it's more socialization. But I think especially for guys, you know, asking another guy to do something is really hard. And I was listening to this podcast a few days ago, and I was, uh, the guy was saying— I'd never heard this before— he goes, women a lot of times have, um, perpendicular relationships. They sit and they look at each other, they talk face to face, or they talk to each other. Guys have parallel relationships. We'll go do an event, so we'll go watch sports, or, and so we're all looking at the TV And I've noticed even when we're in relationships, like at a party or something, guys typically talk about something else, not about themselves. And it can feel very weird for us to know, to share those things. So, um, yeah, that, that part of talking about friendship I think is extremely important. And I love the way you describe that Venn diagram.

Yeah, yeah. And I, I do agree, the way we're socialized is huge in how we approach friendships and, and how we interact with each other. And I wish I remember where I learned this, but I think loneliness is just as bad for our health as 15 cigarettes a day.

Yeah.

Um, and I was like, crap. Yeah. Oh no.

Yeah, I, you know, it's funny because as you said that, I just came across that like it was last week. I was working on a book that I'm writing about, you know, But Grief, that's what I write about. And yeah, I've run across that exact same thing that, you know, wow, that, that lack of connection can be just as detrimental to your health as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. It's something that's really built in, I think, to the human condition. And so what you're, what you're talking about is very, very important, because when we lose that person who's so special to us, even as a friend, and sometimes maybe even especially as a friend, It can be difficult enough. And so I love what you're doing is giving people an outlet for that, giving people a place to go. Just by knowing that you have a podcast and knowing that you have these community groups, that validates it, that it's, it's really real. You know, what I'm feeling is a real loss.

Yeah, thank you so much.

Yeah. So, um, is there anything that I didn't ask you that you would like to talk about?

Good question. Um, I guess one thing I just want to mention is that— and this is honestly about grief in general— is that I feel like a lot of people are scared to bring up the person we've lost and are grieving because they think it'll make us sad. But we're already sad. Like, maybe not in that particular moment, but you can't really make us sad. And it's actually, at least what I've heard other people say and how I feel, is I want to talk about her, and I would love to tell you about our friendship. Um, and I think that keeps a lot of people silent. Like you said, people disappeared. I think they're scared. Um, So yeah, if you take one thing away from like how to support people, it's, you know, ask, ask us about them.

Yeah, thank you for saying that. Um, can't say that enough. I think it's extremely important. That's why whenever I'm interviewing someone who's on Because I've Lost Someone, the first thing I want to do is ask you about, about your loved one. Because, you know, first of all, I believe that I know that they're still here, and we're here, we're here to talk about Lauren. And we're here to talk about the impact that Lauren not only had on your life, but continues to have on your life, you know, 10 years later. And it's just truly amazing, you know, that sometimes we underestimate our impact in the world. And this— I love your, you know, your 42 Days of Summer. I love that, that title, because that brief time that you guys spent together physically led to the next 6 years, which has led to what's going to impact you for the rest of your life.

Yeah, thank you for, for saying that, because that's also something I want people to know, is that I think like, when you feel like your grief's not valid, you'll have excuses for why it's not valid in your head. And one is like, but we didn't spend that much time together. But it was only 6 weeks, you know. And I feel like with love, all love, I don't think time necessarily matters, right? And it does not undercut the love that you have. Your love is valid no matter how much time it was.

Yeah. Yeah, that's great. That's a great way to end. So remind people, Hannah, of where they can reach you, where they can find your podcast and find out more about you.

Yeah, so my website is friendsmissingfriends.com. I tried to make it easy, so everything's the same. Instagram is friendsmissingfriends, and my email is friendsmissingfriends@gmail.com. I love getting emails, even if you just want to, you know, tell me about yourself, tell me about your loss. Feel free to send me an email.

Yeah, well, again, thank you so much for being here today, and really thank you for what you're doing. I know there's a there's a real need for what you're doing. So hopefully someone listening to this will, will reach out to you and realize that, you know, if, if you've lost a friend, and whether it was last week or 10 years ago, uh, that grief has to be processed and has to go somewhere. So it's, it's never too late to, to, to process that.

Absolutely. And thank you so much, and thank you for what you do with this podcast. It's truly amazing.

Yeah. All right, enjoy the rest of your afternoon.

Thank you so much.

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