How Grief Made Me a Better Parent: Lisa Woolery's Surprising Confession | EP 476

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Close your eyes and imagine. What are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain? The things that bring us grief are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Hi there, I'm Brian D Smith. I want to welcome you to another episode of Grief to Growth. So whether this is your first time tuning in, you've been walking this path with me for a while, I'm glad that you're here. On this show, we're all about navigating life's most difficult moments. We talk about grief, we talk about loss, we talk about transformation. And we talk about uncovering deeper truths about who we are, why we're here and where we're going. Today's guest is someone who speaks to the heart of what this journey is all about. Rebuilding from the ashes with raw honesty, with hard-earned wisdom, and even a little humor. Lisa is the voice behind the widow's comeback. Lisa Woolery— she spent two decades in public relations before her world was turned upside down by the sudden death of her husband. Thrown into widowhood without warning, Lisa became a solo parent to two grieving tweens, and with time, grit, and grace, began to rebuild not just her family life— her family's life— but her own identity. In today's conversation, we'll explore Lisa's surprising confession that grief, as brutal as it was, made her a better mother, not in spite of the pain, but because of it. We'll unpack how grief stripped away her perfectionism, pushed her into unexpected spiritual leadership, and opened the door to healing generational wounds, including with her 82-year-old mother. Lisa brings it to us, to the sacred everyday work of raising kids when no one else is coming, of hearing God not with her ears, but with her body, and of reshaping her future from the ruins of her past. We'll also talk about her bestselling memoir, The Widow's Comeback, along with her 365-day grieving calendar and grief journal, resources that have helped many others walk their own path through loss. So by the end of this conversation, I think you'll come away with new ways to think about grief, not just as an ending, but as a complicated, sometimes even illuminating beginning.. And don't forget after the episode to join me on my Substack, grieftogrowth.substack.com, where you'll find an article about today's episode, a space to leave your comments, and a community of people just like you navigating life after loss. So with that, let's welcome Lisa Willery to Grief 2 Growth.

Well, thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here to talk about grief, one of my favorite subjects.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's weird how that becomes our favorite subject after, you know, after some of the things we've been through.

Before we dive into grief, I'd like you to tell us about your husband. Okay, my husband was awesome and amazing. I know people use those words a lot, but he was, uh, we met when I was 14 and he was 17. We met at youth group when the 8th graders got to be introduced to the high school kids, and he was soon to be a senior, so he was like so cool, and I was like gangly with my braces. And, um, it was kind of love at first sight. And so we dated off and on and then got married when I was 22 and he was 25. And we had a wonderful relationship. We actually had infertility issues, and so we spent our 30s having a lovely time as dinks, double income, no kids. And then, uh, when I was 39, we adopted my son from Russia. And then when I was 40, we adopted my daughter. And, um, Eric was a terrific husband, but he was just an amazing dad. He loved those kids so much, and he just really left an imprint on all of us. And we still remember and talk about him all the time. And I still— it's weird because he's been gone for 6 and a half years now, but I still feel like he's part of everything. Um, so he was great.

Yeah, yeah. Well, that doesn't change, right? Even though it's been 6 and a half years, he's still— it's still a part of your life. So, um, so it's been 6 and a half years. And, and how did he pass? You don't have to go into, like, great detail, but I understand it was a sudden passing.

Yeah, actually, he came home from work and I greeted him at the door because I always did. I still loved him that much. And I gave him a kiss and he said, I have so much to tell you about my day. And then he went into his home office to, um, make— do some calls and emails and that kind of thing. And so I went and started making dinner, and I was actually chopping broccoli, and I didn't hear him anymore, so I thought he was doing emails. And then I, uh, went to check on him, and I was going to tell him that— a joke, which was, dinner is so boring because it's broccoli, because we were dieting. And then he would laugh, and we'd do our Mrs. Dash options, you know. Um, but I opened the door, and I found him slumped over, and he had sudden heart failure, and he just had died.

Yeah, I'm so sorry. Um, it, it's really interesting, we're having this conversation, I noticed that my interviews seem to go in patterns, and I've been getting a lot of people recently who have lost spouses, and specifically women who've lost their husbands. And my really good friend Lisa, um, just lost her husband Mike. Um, it was actually 8 months ago yesterday. And it was kind of the same thing. He came home from work, he was doing some things, and then, you know, had a, had a massive heart attack while, while they were together. Um, so you had been together at that point for, for how long?

We had been married 28 years, but together 36.

Yeah.

So my whole life, basically.

Yeah. Well, yeah, your whole, your whole life, right?

Yeah.

So for people, we're going to talk about how grief transforms us and, and some of the, you know, the, the amazing things that have come out of it. But I want people to realize it's been, it's been a while. So what was the— what were those early days like when you found yourself on your own as a mother of two fairly young children?

I don't know a word to say except surprised. Like, it was such a surprise, such a shock, such a turn of my life, because we— like, he was my everything. He was my dinner partner. He was my college fun person. We chose our majors together. He helped me in my career. He was father to my kids. He, he was everything. And so then I suddenly was left without him. And we had some interesting issues and investigation and a delayed death certificate and all of my assets were frozen for 3 months. So I also had no money. And, you know, like trying to navigate my grief and then help my kids with their grief. I realized later that I think I put my own grief on hold to help my kids, which is fine. But then my grief kind of came out later. But I don't remember a lot of things that first year, just because I was reeling from the surprise.

Yeah, kind of a fog that first year. I think that's, I think that's pretty common where you're just kind of doing the things it takes to get, to get through. And then when you have children, you know, you're gonna— a lot of times people will prioritize the children over, over themselves, so you don't get a chance to process for a while. So it sounds like that's what you experienced.

Yeah.

So you, um How did your kids process it at that time? What were those— what was it like for them, as much as you can tell?

Well, I don't know. Like, I'm, I'm like actually kind of grateful that my kids were tweens, even though I wish that their dad would have died when, you know, when they were older. But the— it was nice because we could get on a routine, and I had a reason to get up. I had a reason to try. And so I just really poured into my kids in different ways. And I remember the night that Eric died, and I was sitting in my great room, and my aunt and uncle had come over, and I was waiting for my best friend to arrive, and all these things were going through my head. And I remember specifically stopping and pausing and thinking, I need to up my mom game, because a lot of weeks Eric participated in the parenting like it's 75%. And I, you know, and I mean, some weeks I would, but he, he was just such a helper and such an equal part in the raising of them. And so without him, things were a lot different. The kids didn't get their fun nights out with their dad. They didn't get to watch The Twilight Zone till 3 in the morning making hot dogs while I slept. Um, they didn't get like a lot of these fun things that they used to have. But we tried to get back into the rhythm of family life. And although we no longer ate at the dinner table, for the first time in my life, we ate in front of the TV watching Little House on the Prairie. We needed Nellie Oleson. Yeah, because it was just too sad to be, you know, to be at the table without that place being filled. Um, One of the things that I found that we all participated in was tiring our bodies out. And tiring our bodies out helped us, like, help our minds rest and helped us be able to sleep at night. So they would go to the park and just act like maniacs and just tire themselves out. Specifically, I remember my son who was 12. My husband and I used to joke that he processed life by feeling the ground with his body. Body. So, you know, he would just do all kinds of things. And then I became obsessed not with 10,000 steps but with 20,000 steps. Oh wow. And I just needed to like get my angst out like that. And so at least on Sundays and then Wednesdays— because Wednesdays we were at our grief group, but then we got kicked out. You think they could like, um, tolerate or know how to deal with a 12-year-old boy who was angry, but no. Um, so they asked us not to return because he was a troublemaker, I guess. But so Sundays and Wednesdays we'd go to the park at least, and we would just be wild. Um, I got my 20,000 steps though every day while they were at school. And, um, just really— like, sometimes I'd send the kids outside if they were angsty. We had 4 acres at the time, um, and I'd be like, go outside and break things. And so we had this lawn for these this wood lawn furniture, like in little different areas in the yard, and they got to break them. They were allowed to do that to get their anger out. Um, so that's one of the ways that I helped them is I let them experience their grief with their bodies.

Yeah, I think that's really important. And I think that, you know, we talk about processing grief and processing it in different ways, and sometimes just letting that flow through our bodies is really helpful. I, I walk not 20,000 steps a day, but I I walk about 10,000 steps a day. And I found that that really helped me. And so it's great that you, you and the kids are able to kind of work through that, that part of processing it before you move into the maybe the higher levels of where we want to call it. But I'm really curious, you said about getting kicked out of the grief group. Tell me about that.

Well, so I'll just tell you that my son's pooping time is like, was right at dinnertime. And it was like, it would really irritate me because I'd have dinner on the table, be like, I gotta go to the bathroom. And I didn't know, because this started after my husband died. I didn't know if this was like, that he didn't want to come to the dinner table, that he was acting out, or that he really had to go. Yeah. So, um, so our grief group was dinner time, and we'd all have pizza, and then we'd break up into our small groups, like age-appropriate. And so one time I— we probably attended 4 or 5 times, but like maybe the 4th time, um, they came in and said to me— actually, I was sharing about my grief, and the woman in charge of my son's group came in and she's like, um, excuse me, your son's in the bathroom. And I'm like, like in front of everyone. And I like— I, I had been at like processing, so I was irritated.

Yeah.

And I was like, okay, he had to go to the bathroom, this is his poop time. Yeah. And she's like, well, you've got to go get him. So I went into the bathroom and I'm like, uh, hey Liam, are you almost done? Like, your group is waiting for you. And so he's like, no. So I came back and I said, well, he said he'd come out when he was done. And she's like, well, he's not allowed to be in the bathroom by himself. And I'm like, okay, so what, you want me to be in the men's bathroom? And then she said, well, we can't start the lesson until he's done. And I just, I didn't know what to do except for, I know, I'm sure I said something snarky like, deal with it, you know, I don't know.

Yeah.

So, and then I think we went one more time and then I got this phone call saying that he was not welcome back, but my daughter and I were, and what my accommodation would be for him. And my accommodation was the F-word coming out of my mouth. Yeah, like, I'm gonna return and process my grief while my son is like at a neighbor's house or something? I don't know, it just, um, I don't know, that was just kind of weird and inappropriate. And I don't know if I was inappropriate, but he was 12 and angry.

So yeah, and I'm not going to ask you elaborate on or, you know, disclose who the group was or what the group was, but, and the reason I really wanted to bring this up is because sometimes people don't give us what we need when we're in grief. And it's— and every emotion is, is on the table. It could be anger, it could be guilt, it could be fear, it could be depression, it could be numbness, you know. And I think especially for— well, not especially for a kid, for all of us, anger is a very natural response.

Stay with us, we'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief, most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up. So you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to in the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it. The community that showed up, people who are doing exactly what you're doing, listening, learning, trying to find their footing, readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become, a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grieftogrowth.com/substack. That's grief2growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there.

Yeah. And he was, I think, very numb. And, and that continued. And he was like apathetic. And I actually ended up about 2 years later, sending him to military boarding school just because he needed more than I could give him. He needed men and he needed accountability and this kind of thing. And actually, he's a senior and graduating. He's going to be a military chaplain.

He—

that was a great move on my part. Wow. So just a little aside to all you moms or dads out there, like, follow what you know is right. Don't listen to other people. Like, so many people, they said so many mean things to me about sending him there, and they still do. Um, but it was good for him, and he is going to be a fully functioning, contributing member of society because of it. And as opposed to, like, a basement dweller, you know?

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, the thing is, you know, you have to, as you said, do it— do what you know is right or what you feel is right. Your, your intuition tells you. And the other thing, as, as kids process things differently, men, boys process things different from girls, women. Um, so everybody's got to have their own way of processing things, and I think we need to honor that. And again, numbness or apathy can be a real response. I would think, uh, my daughter was 18 when my other daughter passed away, but I would think especially like with teenagers, because I know one of the things about teenagers is they typically just want to be normal. They just want to be like not recognized as being different. And that's going to really throw a big monkey wrench in that.

Yes. Yeah. And, and that feeling different started immediately. Like, my husband died, like a week before school was supposed to start, and my son was supposed to start middle school. So he started a week late. And then he didn't have a dad. And then I couldn't go to both of the back-to-school nights. And I couldn't, you know, do these things, Dads with Donuts. And these things were like all happening right at the beginning. And although we didn't really, that I remember, talk about that specific thing at the time, I know that like not having your dad feels so— you feel so conspicuous. Like I feel like still, like I'll walk in, especially like at church, and I don't have my husband with me. And I feel so conspicuous. Because everybody else has a husband or like for my son, everybody else had a dad, even if the dad was divorced and lived in another house. They still have their dad.

Yeah. Yeah. You said that losing your husband actually made you a better mother in a sense. And I know sometimes people will say, well, I became a better person in spite of this. You say because of this. So explain that to people.

Yeah, well, like I said, um, I— the night Eric died, I'm like, I need to up my mom game. And so I actually did. I tried really hard. And, um, we're pretty traditional people, and so we have like pretty traditional kinds of roles. The husband is the leader of the house, of the family. And then without him, I had to become the leader. And I got to make different choices. And I mean, I don't know what it would have turned out to be if my husband wouldn't have died. I mean, it would have been great. He was a great leader. He was a wonderful man. But I look back, and I know that It's a biblical reference, is that, you know, about generations and generational change. And like, the sins of the fathers fall upon their kids and their kids and their kids, you know, like alcoholism doesn't just affect the kids, but also the grandkids because it affected the kid, etc., etc. And we didn't have alcoholism or anything, but we had some ways, like, especially— well, both of our families had some dysfunction, like, who doesn't? And so Eric and I were very traditional, like, um, you're doing this because we say so, period. We— it wasn't a lot of, how do you feel about it, you know? And then Eric dies, and I have like zero leverage. I'm 5'2", and like, at this point, the kids are as tall as me, and I don't really feel like I have a lot of, um, anything behind, like, oomph behind my, behind my words. So, um, but I also lost the taste of like, well, I say so. And I remember specifically the first time it happened, we were driving in my husband's car and I was taking it to get detailed, and because I was gonna sell it, and Liam says I don't want you to sell the car. Daddy promised it to me. And I said, well, no, I'm the mom, we're selling it. And then I, then I said, you know what, I'm not that mom anymore. So I said, why, like, why are you feeling so sad about it? Well, because Dad promised me it, and it makes me sad that we're going to get rid of Dad's car. And so I said, well, what if us selling Dad's car helped us with our goals because we as a family had two goals. One was that I didn't have to go back to work, and one was that we got to stay in our house until they graduated from high school. Just like stability things. And selling the car would be like some cash, especially since at the beginning I was so broke. And so I told him that, and I said, so what do you think about that helping us with our goals. And he goes, okay. And I said, when you're ready to drive, we'll buy you a car. And so that was like the first sort of moment that I remember that I was going to be a changed mom. And after that, I started being able to say things to my kids, like instead of, you know, say a teacher calls, like that's never happened. But, you know, a teacher calls and the kid's in trouble. Um, instead of me just being like, you're on restriction, instead I can say things like, well, what happened and why, and let's talk about it. What is your input? Um, if we're gonna make a big change as the family, it wasn't just me and Eric making the decision, but it was my kids having input. And generally, generationally, that is not the kind of touchy-feely sort of families that either of us grew up in.

Wow. So, um, you said it made you a better mother. How did it change you otherwise as a person?

Well, yes. I mean, I used to be perfect. Not anymore. I walk around with my flaws on the outside. I don't mind them anymore. I have much more capacity for other people and their laws. And I just am like way more calm. And I just have better relationships. I have less stress. It's weird that losing my husband, who was my everything, leader— yeah, would put me in a place where I'm so much calmer. But that's sort of the growth path that I've had.

Why do you think that is? How did that come about?

Well, I think that it has to do with my Christian faith. Um, and I think that I rely on God to help me solve my problems instead of my husband to help me solve my problems. And God is flawless, and my husband was flawed, and then I was flawed, so the two of us were really flawed. Um, but I feel like God has really, um, helped me grow and help me trust in him. And when you trust in God, you don't have as much to fear, and you don't have as much to worry about.

Yeah, that's a really interesting thing how that happens, right? We, we have the biggest tragedies of our life come around, and then we learn to trust more out of that tragedy.

Yeah.

So you, you know, uh, you mentioned you were a pretty traditional family, and I just interviewed someone— actually, the episode just came out. Um, she was very traditional. She is a very traditional Christian. She lost her husband And she had some struggles because the church had told her, this is the, the role of a woman, this is the role of a man. Did you have any trouble stepping into that role? You, you said you, you became a different kind of parent, but did you have any, any struggles with that?

I did not have any of those after Eric died, but like before he died, at church, you know, like um, hearing that a woman has to acquiesce to the man kind of thing. Like, I think a lot of churches, people forget that, you know, um, the man is the leader of the house, but he treats his woman as Christ treats the church. I think a lot of people forget that. Right, right. Um, but one of the things that I was mad at God about was that I had to be the leader.

Yeah.

Because I, I didn't want to be the leader. And then I wasn't just the leader of my little family with my kids, but then I was the leader of my larger family. After my husband died, my brother died, and my dad died. And so then I have my 82-year-old mom who now I have to take care of her. And so I moved her from a little town in Washington out to Kansas City where I live. And now I have to work with the dysfunctions that my mom and I have. And I have to learn how to get over them. And I have to learn how to lead her to a better, calmer place, because she can't do it. So then here I am. The leader. And then, you know, that kind of made me mad because Eric was good with my mom and she respected him because he was a man. So I had to really learn how to like lean into how am I going to help my mom. And so basically what I learned, which is probably obvious to everyone but not to me till I learned it, which is how I show up as a person is how whoever I'm with reacts. And so that was a real lesson to me that whenever I go see my mom, I have to be in the right spirit and I have to be— I have to be kind. I'm the one who has to display all of this, even though she's my mom. So like, learning how to be the leader was hard, but I learned it and I think I'm doing pretty good.

Yeah, yeah, learning, learning hard things.

Yeah, yeah.

You touched upon— you said one of the goals was after, after your husband passed is that you'd be able to stay in, stay in the house, um, and I think you said not go back to work. How did that work out for you? Were you able to stay home?

Um, yes, I— once our assets were unfrozen, um, I had a really good financial advisor and he really helped me, um, make that happen. We did end up moving out of the house at some point because it was after my son went to boarding school. It was my daughter and I in a 6,700-square-foot house on 4 acres, so it was a little ridiculous and it was a lot of work. So, um, we did end up right-sizing, but it was— it It was okay because I was trying to maintain stability. But, you know, my daughter's in the same school. My, my son said, I don't care as long as I come home and I have my room, you know. So, um, so yes, I was able to do that. And I feel like although God sort of yanked the rug out from under me, I feel like he's given me a lot of blessings aside. Like, I don't have my husband anymore, I don't have my big fat paycheck. But I, but I've, I feel like he has blessed me, um, with enough money. I always have enough money for everything that I need and want.

Yeah.

So, um, that's been a real blessing for me.

So getting, you know, really practical for a moment, what advice would you have for, for people who are married to prepare for something like this, um, in terms of the financial and all that stuff? And what if someone finds themselves in the situation? What advice would you have for them also?

Well, before the death happens, get that life insurance. It is so important because you don't want your mate to suddenly be the leader of the family and having all of that stress and pressure and then having to go to work every day or find a new job. Or replace your income. Like, that life insurance is so important. And then the other thing I would say is make sure that both of the married people are on everything— on the bank accounts, on the electric bill. Oddly, the, the hardest thing is— was the, uh, cell phone. And actually, like, 3 years later, they were still suing my husband. Even though he was dead and they knew he was dead. It just like— be on— just partner up, be on everything, be co-signers. Um, that'll make everything a lot easier. And then to the person who finds themselves suddenly without their mate, I mean, I think that what you need to do is you need to find a good financial advisor. Um, and I'm not talking about your brother-in-law. You need to go and you need to see someone who is unbiased and can sit you down and say, here is your reality. So maybe that means you have to go back to work, or maybe it means you don't right now, or maybe it means you need to invest in whatever. But it just really have somebody to guide you who isn't emotionally involved in your situation.

Yeah, thank you. That's, that's very, um, it's good to have that. And I know it's one of those things that we don't like to talk about, and we don't like to think about, but we do find ourselves in those situations. And, uh, and I'm learning about this, you know, myself right now at my advanced age that, you know, you've got to have these things in place, you know, you know, trusts and all that kind of stuff. Again, that we don't like to really think about. And having everybody's name on everything, it's different, and it's different by state. So in some states it does roll over automatically to the spouse, in some states it doesn't.

Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I guess the other thing I would say is don't have debt.

Yeah, yeah.

But that's just a good practical thing for anyone. Yeah, as little debt as possible.

Yeah. So, um, you, you, uh, with, with Eric, you know, you had a pretty, uh, uh, I guess traditional relationship. Um, you weren't expecting this. What surprised you about yourself after you found yourself in this situation? What, what did you find out about Lisa that you didn't know before?

Well, I found out that I love adventures. And I mean, I kind of knew that I liked adventures when Eric was alive because we always had so much fun. Like, we'd make anything an adventure, like dieting. We'd like Yeah, it sounds like a great lot of fun.

Yeah.

Yes. And so I didn't lose that. And in fact, it grew. And I have done so many of these, like, super awesome traveling adventures. Like, last year I was invited to be a writer-in-residence in France for 3 weeks.

Oh, wow.

And I got to— all I did all day was write in a château in, like, in the countryside in France. And so it made— it kind of freed up a part of me because I didn't have to stay home because Eric was a little bit of a homebody. And so I was allowed to like choose some things that I wanted to do. And I've just really gotten into traveling and I just haven't said no to anything. Everything that's presented to me, I'm like, "I'm doing it." Even if it's Cleveland. I'm gonna go and I'm gonna have fun. And so I've Like, I really— like, I can go. In fact, I'm planning a trip to Rome, um, and then afterwards I'm going to a writer's retreat. But I decided that since I'm gonna be in Tuscany for a writer's retreat, why not go to Rome for a week? And I'm going by myself, and I know exactly what kinds of tours to sign up for, and I will have the greatest time. So I've like almost turned into my grandma who traveled the world by herself after my grandpa died. So that's been a little surprising to me because I was always such a homebody with Eric.

Yeah. Now, I'm glad you shared that. But I would imagine, again, right after Eric passed, could you even imagine you'd be here 6 and a half years later? I mean, if someone had said, Lisa, 6 and a half years, you're going to be, you're going to be a writer, you'll be traveling the world, what would you have said to them?

I'd be like, well, how would you do that without Eric? Then I did it.

Yeah. Well, again, I, you know, what I like to do with this, with the show, is to give people, give people hope, to give people vision. Because when we're in that early part of grief, you know, it feels like nothing is ever going to be right again, that you'll— that I'll never be happy again. And I love talking to people like you who are a few years out, get a few years on this, that can say, hey, it's going to be okay.

It is. And I mean it. Like, don't get me wrong, I have days where I like really can't do anything because I'm so upset. Like, for example, it's— I'm going to tear up a little bit right now because in a couple of weeks it would have been Eric's 60th birthday. And like, that is really hitting me that like Eric is never going to be old. I mean, 53 might be old to some of you listeners, but yeah, um, but if you are in a place where you are so desolate because you lost a beloved, whatever that beloved is, a child, a husband, somebody really close to you, if you want to, if there's a little piece of you that wants to, you can all you have to do is take about a step forward about every day. You don't have to make a giant leap. You just have to take a little step. And that little step can be, hey, I'm gonna make a homemade meal tonight. Or that little step can be, I'm just gonna peek at an online dating app. I'm not gonna do anything. I'm just gonna peek. That little step could be I'm gonna open my journal and I'm gonna write. You, you know what that little step is. If you can take it on most days, then you can find yourself 6 years later a best-selling author traveling the world and virtually having a great life. And that brings me to something weird that I'm gonna say. I sometimes, like, I'll look in my photo roll on my phone and I'll see me before Eric died and I'll be like, oh, if you even knew what was coming and what you're gonna have to walk through. And then I'll look at me now and I look a little older, but then again I am, and I just marvel at how life can still be great. And life can still go on. And I sometimes look at the old me and I'm like, do I even want to be her anymore? I mean, sure, I want Eric back. Like, I would do that in the blink of an eye. But how would it be with the new me and the old him? Yeah, like, life just made me so different. And I would just say, like, try to embrace that, try to try to just be you, part 2.

Yeah, yeah. Now, Lisa, I know you said you're, you're a woman of faith, and you mentioned maybe a little bit of anger toward God after Eric passed. How did your relationship with God evolve from that point?

Well, I would say that I probably had the strongest faith of my life And then Eric died. And then I was literally, God, like, I still believe in you and you're still part of my life, but I can't even with you right now. I just— and I mean, I still went to church because church was really good to my kids. They like really embraced them and they were so helpful to them. But I had a hard time. Like, I had to walk in the sanctuary by myself. And sit by myself for the first time ever in my life. And then I had to listen to people talk about how awesome God is, and like, I didn't feel that. And for a long time, like, I don't even know if I prayed. And, and then, um, slowly my faith started coming back to me, and I just could hear the Holy Spirit a little bit. And then I started reading my Bible again, and I started, um, just being more aware and allowing God in my life again. And is it okay if I read a scripture?

Absolutely.

Okay, so I came across this scripture. I was doing like the read through the Bible in a year, but it takes me 2 and a half years. And, um, and I came across this, and I was so mad that I called up my friend and read it to her, and I was like enraged. It's Hosea 2:14-16, but— and God is talking to the Israelites who have been banished from Jerusalem, and, um, he is talking to them how they can be with God again. But then I will win her back once again. I will lead her into the desert and speak tenderly to her there. I will return the vineyards to her and transform the valley of trouble into the gateway of hope. She will give herself to me there, as she did long ago when she was young, when I freed her from captivity in Egypt. When the day comes, says the Lord, you will call me husband instead of master. And so, like, that just totally pissed me off because I'm like, what, God, you're gonna be my husband? Like, you're gonna take me out for drinks? You're gonna let me sit on your lap and cuddle with you and I just was so mad about that. And it just stuck in my mind. And I spent a year probably praying about it and resisting it. But over time, I began to realize that God meant not that he was going to be my last earthly husband, like I still hold out hope that I might have a part 2, another marriage, but what I realized is that God was telling me is that I could trust him. I could trust him with every single thing that I trusted Eric with. And P.S., he had like way more power to have good outcomes than Eric did. And so I, I like, I'm still on that journey of like trusting God 100%. And although I I feel like I'm there a lot, but you know, I'm just a girl, so I, I don't always have that trust. But, um, I could tell you about a couple of times where I feel like it's a spiritual thing that happened. Sure. Um, with God. So my son, as I've told you, struggled, and a certain year in his life he has struggled so much that I was afraid that he would be able to even graduate from high school. And so I asked, like, in a moment of desperation on my Facebook page, I'm like, everyone's been so good to us since Eric died, and you're always asking what you can do to help. Well, here's how you can help. Who wants to do a year-long prayer intervention for one of my kids? And I just got 30 people who immediately said yes. And so for the next year we all prayed for him every week, and then I'd send like a little picture or a verse or something like, don't forget to pray for Liam this week. And the transformation that happened in that kid's life was amazing. He went from just not caring about himself to asking for acne medication, for asking to have braces, these are things he refused before, to, um, deciding that he wants to join the Army and that he wants to be a pastor. And just this change was so great. But I'll have to tell you this, in that year, I, I probably got the most benefit from it. Um, and it took a year before I saw anything. Like it was a long year of praying and not seeing improvement in Liam. Like, it took like that whole year, and I remember just being just despondent about it. Like, I would start off my day like praying, and then I would end up on the floor crying and just like, God, why? Why are you punishing him? Why are you punishing me? Like, you took Eric. Like, he needs something, give it to him. And I didn't see it for a long time. It was all happening like on the inside. And so one night I went to bed, and in the middle of the night I woke up and God spoke to me. And I didn't hear it— this is why I know it was God, like this has never happened to me before— it wasn't like I heard with my ears. I like heard with my whole body, like sort of vibrating. And I just woke up and I felt like this presence. And then I heard in that weird hearing way, don't you think you can trust me for Liam yet? And I went, oh, okay. And then, like, the next morning, I was like, okay, that was really weird. And like that coupled with— that was like at almost the end of the year when I didn't feel like Liam was improving. But then at the end, like, all this stuff came together like that, and his career choice and his request for the braces and the acne medication, blah, blah, blah. There's like, all of a sudden, it's like overnight he blossomed. And, um, so that's like really stuck with me, obviously, because I've never heard not with my ears, but like I heard with my body.

Yeah.

And then, um, so we moved from Southern California where I lived most of my life to Kansas City 8 months before my husband died. And so I had to learn how to do winter. I had never— I hadn't had any experience with snow and, you know, this kind of thing. And then, you know, here we are, like, the 7th winter, um, and we had moved to a new house and the driveway was a hill. And so I thought, I can do this hill in winter. And I like had these ideas in my head and I know what winter is like. I wasn't really afraid of it anymore. But, um, then we had ice storms in Kansas City and the coldest winter and the most most snow in like 28 years or something last year. And, um, my daughter, she was, um, like 15 or 16 at the time. Oh, and you're allowed to drive at 15 here, so when I tell you the story— so, um, she left, um, to go to work, and I, and I saw that we're gonna have all these storms, and we talked about it, but I'm like, oh, you're gonna get out of work right at the beginning of the snow, so you'll be home. You'll be fine. Just drive home. And I didn't even think about the fact that I might need to come pick her up or whatever. So we get an ice storm. So I learned that on the weather app, when we have these like angry, like blue slash lines, that's an ice storm. But like, I hadn't experienced that yet. I'd only experienced like the nice gentle snow. And so that was what happened before the snow. So there was like a coat of ice on the ground and then snow on top of it. So my daughter calls, she's, um, like 20 minutes away, and she's like, Mom, I don't feel comfortable driving home. And I'm like, well, I'm so glad that you called me, that's like what you're supposed to do. So I said, I'm gonna call an Uber. Oh well, actually I didn't say that yet. So I had my son walk down the driveway, it was, um, Christmas break, so he was home, and he like slid right down so that I couldn't get my car out. So I was new in this neighborhood and I didn't have any— I didn't know any neighbors. So I said, well, I'll call you an Uber. And I tried to get an Uber for 20 minutes and I could get nothing. And so in frustration, I turned my phone off, I threw it, and I said, fine, God, you want to be my husband? Get her home. And then I got my senses and I picked my phone back up. And but my Uber app was off. And I called my friend and I'm like, like, help me brainstorm here. So we're like thinking that maybe I just book her a hotel room across the street and she could just stay there until I could come get her. And then my— I got this message that said, Kwan will pick up your ride. But my Uber app was off. And it was like this Uber alert that I had never seen before. And I use Uber a lot. And I was like, oh, just kidding, God. Like, yeah. And, and so Katie got home, like, I literally was waiting for her on the front porch. Like, I was just beside myself because I felt like, here I am, the mom and the dad, I can't even get out of my driveway. I don't have anyone to call. I mean, I was about to start calling my old neighbors, which I know they would have helped me. But you know, when you're in that situation, you Yeah, you know, different about calling people. But, um, so with those and like other little incidents that have happened, I'm really learning to trust God as my husband, like as the person who's going to solve my problems. And that's been, um, just a really good journey for me.

Awesome. Now I know you, um, had a breakthrough with your mother, you know, I guess, based upon the grief that you're going through. So tell me about that.

Yeah. Well, my mom likes to be the center of attention. And everything sort of revolves around how she feels about it. And so she doesn't always have a lot of understanding for others and what they're going through. And she wasn't super amazing for when Eric died. And she's since apologized because she now understands what it's like to be a widow because she is one now. Um, and that's caused some anger with me. And there's been some incidents in my life where she hasn't been what I've needed her to be because she can't see what I'm going through unless she's gone through it. And so that's just really like has affected the way I felt about her. And so I get— I tend to get a little angry and impatient. And so when my mom moved out here, I was angry and impatient, like I was the usual me, she was the usual her. But then through the, the months that after she moved here, she lives in this beautiful retirement, a half an, um, retirement community half an hour away. And so when I see her, I now pray and I like listen to praise music just so I'm like in the right spirit for when I show up with her. Because I've prayed about it a lot and I've just tried to embrace like, what is a leader? A leader doesn't mean that I go in with my needs. A leader goes in sharing what others need. And a leader goes in and fills the holes. The leader doesn't sit and wait for their holes to be filled. And I've had— on my way to my mom's house, I've had like literal spiritual warfare in my car where like the thought of just being done with her pops into my head and I'm like, no, get behind me, no, you know, like just this like argument with— I don't know, it's demon myself. I don't know, whatever. Um, but I've just really learned that I am the leader now. And so I show up leading. I don't show up waiting to be led. And I'm kind of excited about that, actually. And I'm kind of excited that I, I get to be the leader of my family now. So I get to say, this is how we treat each other. And I'll even tell my mom that. I'll be like, no, we are having kind words today. Or, you know, but I get to do that. Like, I get to set the tone instead of waiting for my mom to set the tone, and then it's not a great tone. So I have kind of— I was mad at God for a while that I had to be the leader, but now I'm like, well, maybe I can be a better leader. And so I tried to lead with godliness and kindness, and it's been working. And actually, um, so as we tape this, it's, um, early January, and I'm happy to say that this was my best Christmas that I've had since Eric died. And it's actually the best Christmas I've had in a long time because Christmas is always um, with my mom kind of about how she wants it to go. And then after Eric died, it was about how she wants it to go, and then Eric wasn't there. And you know, all of the holiday things are so hard when you lose someone.

Yeah.

But I got to be the leader this Christmas, and with healing and with leadership, it was an amazing time. We all laughed, We had a great time. Um, there were no— not even any little arguments.

And so, yeah, you've transformed. You've become a— you've stepped up. That's awesome. So let's talk about The Widow's Comeback. Tell people what they can expect from your memoir.

Yeah, yeah. So I have even not just my memoir, but I have a ministry called The Widow's Comeback. Um, I'm on Facebook. I do live prayer there. I do, um, a post a day to help you process what you might be going through as a widow. Um, and then I have some tools that I've created. The Widow's Comeback is my memoir, and it's about the first 2 years after my husband died. And if you read it, you have to be ready to laugh and cry, and then laugh so hard you cry. So I just really have I took some humor and I put it in because I think that in processing, it's good to be able to laugh. So I just really like leaned into like the shit show that I was. And, um, and I told the truth and I told like really what it's like to be a widow and some of the funny things that happen. I started dating, um, and this kind of thing because a lot of the widows' memoirs that I've read were sort of like the perfect widow. And but I like talked about a lot of stuff. So I want, I want widows to not feel alone. I don't want widows to feel like they are the only ones that are like total shit shows. Because man, like it's all bets are off when you're a widow. Like you have to rediscover, you have to learn, and it can be funny. So, um, So I have my memoir that I, I want to bring widows into the experience, um, with me so that they don't feel— like I said, they don't feel alone. And then along with that, I have two companion pieces. I have a grief calendar. Um, so basically what I do with the grief calendar is I teach you how to plan your month because you have all kinds of landmine days. Like, for example, I said that Eric's birthday is coming up, his 60th birthday. So I already have planned what I'm gonna do, and then that way I don't have to worry, just know that that date is coming up and worry about it, right? So even if I end up doing something different on the day, which I've done before, at least like I can plan for it. And then when I start to like get stressed that, oh my gosh, it's Eric's birthday, I know I'm going out for sushi. That he liked to take us for sushi dates. So my daughter and I are going to sushi. Like, I know that, so I don't have to worry about it. So, and then, um, in the grief calendar, I also have like, um, a really impactful exercise for each month to really help you process things like in-laws, um, people who aren't helpful, you know, just some things that people aren't talking about, right? Um, and then my third piece is actually, I think, will be out maybe by the time this airs. And it's a guided grief journal, and it has, um, some opportunities to process your grief with God. So it has some Bible verses and some things to think about. If you are a faithful person, that would be helpful to you. So that's what I have. But I also want to say what I have coming up.

Yeah, sure.

I have a trilogy coming out of like life reinvention. It's about 3 women who lose their husbands in a plane crash and how each one of the widows walks their healing path. And I'm very excited about that. I just— I wrote the first one actually while I was in France. She actually runs away from her life and goes to France. And, um, like, that's the first book. The second book I'm about to start, it's called Pickleball Piccadillos, and it's about a woman who kind of heals and does her, um, transformation by dating everybody on the pickleball team. And then, um, the third, I'm, I'm not quite sure what that's going to be yet, but, um, so I have become a writer for widows. Yeah, um, with my ministry and with my skills, I'm trying to create things to help widows, um, process their grief and know that they're going to be okay.

That's awesome. That's awesome. So yeah, um, as we come to the end of our time together, um, I want to thank you for, for what you've done, for what you've shared, and for what you're doing, and for bringing hope to, to people that are going through what might feel like the end. I, I can only imagine. I was talking to someone earlier, as I've been speaking with a lot of widows lately for some reason, and they were saying, you know, if you're very young and you're widowed, you kind of feel like, you know, maybe you start over again. If you're very old and you're widowed, you kind of feel like, well, I'm toward the end anyway. But if you're in that middle range, that might be the most difficult time to lose someone, um, because I, you know, you're— again, you might feel like I'm kind of coming toward the end. So I appreciate what you're doing to help people that are in that space. Like, you can reinvent yourself. It's not too late. Anything that I didn't ask you today that you wanted to talk about that you wish I had asked you?

Well, actually, what you just said, I want to address.

Yeah.

The day after Eric died, I was 50 when he died, and I was walking down the hall and I remember specifically where I was when this really mean voice came into my head and it was my own voice. And I said to myself, well, I guess your life is over. I mean, it was a good life, but you're 50. Like, what do you have in store for you? And I can say, if you are 40, if you're 30, if you're 50, if you're 60, you have another— you, like, your life is not over. You get to do what you want. Like, you're gonna walk through some really hard times but you still get to choose and choose to have fun.

Yeah, yeah, you get, you get to make a choice. I love that. Thank you. Yeah, well, Lisa, thanks so much for being here today. Again, thank you for what you're doing. It's been a pleasure getting to know you.

Well, thank you, and thank you for your podcast. I listen to it when I'm going to sleep sometimes.

I hear that a lot. I guess I put people to sleep.

But yeah, no, podcasts are good because they get your mind off of whatever. Yeah.

All right. Well, have a great rest of your afternoon. Thanks. Bye. Grief doesn't follow stages, timelines, or rules. And if you've ever wondered, am I doing this right? You're not alone. That's why I created the grief check-in. It's not a test. There are no right or wrong answers. It's simply a gentle way to understand how grief may be showing up for you right now. In just a few minutes, you'll gain clarity and language for what you're experiencing. Without judgment, labels, or pressure to move on. If you're wondering where you are in grief, this is a safe place to look. Go to grief2growth.com/checkin. That's grief numeral 2 growth.com/checkin. Hi there, I'm really excited to tell you about my latest ebook. It's 4 lessons that you can learn from the near-death experience without going through all the trouble of dying to learn them. I've been studying NDEs for several years now. I am completely convinced that not only are they 100% real, but that there's some very universal wisdom that we can get from the near-death experience. And I've distilled that down in this book into 4 short lessons. And I've also given you all the reasons why I believe that NDEs are absolutely real. So go to www.grieftogrowth.com/NDElessons to pick it up for free. www.grieftogrowth.com/NDElessons. I hope you enjoy it.