How Spirit Is Guiding a Mediumship Revolution | Sally Hawk & Sherry Abdou on VerySoul- EP 426

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Close your eyes and imagine. What are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain? The things that bring us grief are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Hey everybody, I'm Brian. Thanks for joining me for another episode of Grief to Growth. And whether this is your first time listening, or you've been walking this journey with us for a while, I want to welcome you to the show. The show is about navigating life's most difficult moments while seeking deeper understanding of who we are, why we're here, and where we go when we leave this physical world. My mission is to give you hope, to offer healing insights, and help you connect with an unseen world that continues to support us. Today I'm welcoming back to Grief to Growth a very special guest. Her name is Sally Hawk. Sally is the founder of verysoul.com. And this time she's brought with her someone who lives and breathes the heart of Very Soul's mission, Sherrie Abdoo. And Sherrie is an evidential medium who's completed over 200 sessions on Very Soul, and we'll talk about what Very Soul is. Now Sally joined me a couple years ago when Very Soul was just getting started. And now it's a thriving global movement with more than 2,500 mediums across 50 countries, and nearly 100,000 spirit communications shared. What makes VeriSoul different is how it solves 3 huge problems that I see in the mediumship world. And that's finding a good medium, finding an affordable medium, and finding an available medium. And we'll dive into how Sally's personal loss transformed from corporate powerhouse to spiritual visionary, and how VeriSoul, built with guidance from spirit, has become a sanctuary for people seeking connection and healing. You're also going to hear from Sherry, whose spiritual gifts blossomed while caring for her dying father, and how the loss of her own child has deepened her mission to serve grieving parents. As a caring listener with Helping Parents Heal, Sherry brings not just skill, but a deeply personal understanding of grief and love that transcends, that transcends this life. And together, we're going to explore how mediumship can support parents after loss, what real spiritual development looks like, and why ethical, heart-centered communication with spirit is actually more needed than ever, ever. If you're curious about connecting with your loved ones, or you're wondering what to look for in a trustworthy medium, this conversation will speak directly to your heart. And don't forget, if you'd like to be part of the community where these conversations continue, visit grieftogrowth.com/community after listening to this, and we can carry on the conversation there. So with that, I want to welcome Sally and Sherry to Grief to Growth.

Thank you so much, Brian. Really appreciate you having me back, and I'm glad we could bring Sherri.

Thank you for having us. Happy to be here.

Yeah, I'm really happy to have both of you. I was saying before we got started, this is my only my second three-way, um, interview, so we'll see how this goes. So I want to bounce it, you know, to both of you. But Sally, as I mentioned in the introduction, I've had you here before. When we talked before, Verisol was kind of just ramping up. It was, it was established, it was there, I saw the concept. I was so excited. I was glad to have you on. Tell us what Verisol is and how it's changed since our first conversation.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, so before I do that, I need to thank you, Brian, because you have been a supporter right from the very beginning. And I even hear you from time to time talking about Verisol on other podcasts. So thank you for that. You understood the concept right from the beginning. The concept was to solve all of the problems that spirit was seeing. So the people on the other side saw an efficiency problem, and they saw an access problem. They want to get to their people. So you have Shana on the other side, she wants to be able to reach you. And other children want to be able to reach their parents. And there's too many barriers in the way to get that done. So if you can imagine yourself as a person in spirit, what had to happen in the past was you had to first influence your person to try to get them to look for a medium. And then you had to try to help them navigate the jungle of finding a medium they could trust, much less affording, much less finding availability. It was a lot of influence that was required by spirit, a lot of energy on their part. Now what they've created is a global center that makes it very easy. And, and I can give you some examples later about how that works, but makes it very easy for them to find mediums who have been developed, who they can trust and who they have access to and that they can afford. And that's, you know, we are— we're a community of mediums who take this very seriously and really want to help spirit make those communications.

Yeah. You know, I love the way you said that. You said it from the spirit perspective because we always think of it from our perspective. How do I find a medium? Stuff we don't think about, like people in spirit, like how do I get to my loved one on Earth? So I love the way you kind of flip that whole thing. And you brought with you Sherry today. So tell us why, why Sherry?

So Sherry, she, she has the total perspective of what's happening here. She's experienced great loss. She's experienced that loss before she knew she had the mediumship skills. She found her mediumship skills, and she is a super developer. So, or I want to call her a super user of Very Soul in terms of having just really buckle down and use everything that we offer in terms of practice space, coaching, and all the different capabilities to move through the process very quickly and develop her skills. Sherri, like you said, she's done over 200 sessions in less than a year, and that's phenomenal. That takes a huge amount of commitment, but I've watched her develop and it's just phenomenal. So I really wanted her to be here to talk about what that experience was like and share more with others.

And Sherry, I want to bring you in now. And before I ask you about you and your journey and everything, when, when someone has a, a child in spirit, I want you to talk about your child. So tell us about, about your child.

Thank you. Thank you for having me, and thank you, thank you for allowing me to talk about Gabriel. Um, in 2010, I was pregnant with my third child, and I was not able to complete, uh, the pregnancy, and, uh, Gabriel passed almost at my second trimester. And it was my first real touch with grief. I actually didn't know I was in grief. I had mental fog. I was sad. I no longer wanted to work out or go outside for walks. All of my normal was just dialed down. I even went to my doctor and said, I feel like someone unplugged me. And here I was supposed to be so excited. My oldest was getting ready for college. I had all her dorm room things set up. The pregnancy was a surprise but welcomed. But I was just lifeless. I was absolutely lifeless. And I didn't know what was happening. I had no, no concentration. And anytime I would bring up the miscarriage, it would be shut down by very meaningful people. But they would say things like, you already have two kids. You're older. You didn't even meet the baby. And oh, Brian D Smith, I mean, my heart, a mother's heart just crumbles at that. So I learned quickly to not speak about the miscarriage. But still, you know, 6 months, 8 months, I'm still at that just very low energy, not knowing if something's wrong with me. I actually told my husband, maybe something's the matter with me. You know, we don't even know. And a good friend of ours who's a nurse, he went and spoke to her, and she said, she's in grief. Your wife's in grief. And so that journey began for me then when I at least had language around what I was feeling, because I wasn't really touched by it on that level before.

Right, right. And then did that lead to your development of your mediumship ability? No.

No, it wasn't until 2016. My father was— his health was declining. I went to help with his end-of-life care with my brother and my mom. And things changed, things changed, even during just his care. Very vivid dreams. I mean, vivid dreams where I would see my father in the dream, maybe in his 30s, dark hair, darker mustache, very odd clothes, maybe in the '70s. Wasn't— my dad was a sharp dresser, but not in my dream. And I would see him in the room, in his bedroom, where I was helping to care for him under hospice care. And in the dream, it was almost like it was an overlay, like he was in the room but not of the room. And I knew, I don't know how I knew, but I knew I was being given a glimpse of what Dad was doing. As we were caring for him, he was thriving. He looked healthy. He wasn't riddled with cancer. But I didn't make the full connection. It was bits and pieces like that that kept dripping in gently from spirit, very gently.

Wow.

Okay.

And so Sally, back to what VeriSoul is for people that don't know, and I've talked about it so much, I take it for granted. So let's just go back to the beginning and the basics of like, what is VeriSoul? How is it different? And how did you develop it?

So VeriSoul is a community of mediums from all around the world who start off by practicing together. And that sounds simple, but we've got a lot of time zones, we've got a lot of languages to navigate. And we've, we created a very efficient way to help make good use of mediums' time. It seems silly, but prior to VeriSoul, mediums were operating back in the, I don't know, 16th century or something. You know, there was very little technology used and very little efficiency of any kind. Hard to imagine that compared to the times of Uber, right? And Instacart. So basically, VeriSoul just brings it all up to speed and makes it very efficient for mediums to practice. But then also, provides different programs where they can continue to take on more challenging scenarios. And that helps them develop. As you know, Brian D Smith, VeriCell was not designed by me. It was designed by Spirit and handed to me in a request to build this. So even while we're building it and we're still building parts of it, those in spirit still stay very involved, and they have lots of advice. And they continue to surprise me in terms of all the things that they have considered. But the main thing that I want to point out is that the intention is to get— to make this accessible to clients, so that those in spirit can reach their people. And so part of our program is we offer free sessions, we offer a free session to anyone in need through something called our donated program. And that's one of our, our levels of mediumship training. But those mediums are very skilled. And many of them are already professional outside of VeriSoul. But in our program, they're still doing donated readings. And then mediums can also become professionals with us where they can start taking payments. But that, that free program is a really important part of what we do. Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief, most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper, thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there. Yeah, that's, that is a, it's a great thing. And when we, as we talk about this, um, I think we have to kind of keep in mind two perspectives, at least for me. Um, I, I've referred mediums to you guys, mediums who are saying, I don't know how to get started, I don't, I don't know how to market myself, etc. And I refer clients to you guys, clients that say, I can't find a medium. And, uh, I can, or again, back to, I can't find a medium who I can trust. Who's affordable, and who is available. Because, you know, you might get two of those three, but it's hard to get all three at the same time. Um, so that's— those are problems that I see it's solving. And I love— again, you're giving credit to Spirit for designing, because I just think it's, it's ingenious. And I don't see anything else like it where it's a great marketplace that, that for, for mediums— again, they can put themselves on there— is also a great, great place for people to go. So Whenever anyone asks me, you know, who do you recommend? I'll give them a list of my favorite mediums, but I'm also like, go to Verisol because it's just— it's fantastic.

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. And there's, there's a number of different things built into the system, into their designs that are just brilliant, that some of which I understood from the beginning what that was going to do, but some of which I didn't. And now I've watched it play out for, you know, we've been up and running for about 3 years and it's just fantastic what, what they're accomplishing. So, you know, simple things like how do they match practice partners up, because they asked for a specific algorithm to match practice partners. How do they match clients with mediums? They had asked for an algorithm to do that as well. And it's very clever to watch what happens in those matches, because there are both great experiences for the clients that occur, but there are also important development experiences that happen for the mediums at the same time, and healing experiences for the mediums So it's things like that. There's so many layers to what's going on. It's a little bit hard to put into words.

Yeah, there's, there's a lot going on behind the scenes. And after having talked to you, I know that, I know about that. So let's talk again, from a medium perspective for you, Sherri. What is it that made you decide that you wanted to join VeriSoul?

I had a friend that I had taken classes with, and I had taken every class with every respected medium mentorship practices for years, and, um, this friend was actually a scientist, a retired scientist, that said to me, you need to be on VeriSoul, you need to practice there. And I didn't do it, I was busy. And then she contacted me again and said, you don't understand, you're going to practice with other mediums, it's global, you're going to meet the nicest people, I'm having the best time. So I thought, oh, it's going to be complicated, wasn't complicated. It was so easy. Everything was easy. Um, once I got on the site, um, everything was done for me, and I'm not a tech person. So the fact that my calendar was set up without any concern, um, the scheduling, the time zone, um, all of these things. And so VeriSoul for me took me out of the classroom and into a program where I can practice with other mediums at my level together to enhance our skills. And we supported each other. And then after that, it takes you, you know, into another step of maybe giving readings to what they call starter clients, and that's friends and family of mediums. And then the mediumship I found changed, was very different than the practice, something changed, spirit steps in. And Sally had told me that And she said, you know, you will grow, you will grow. And you do in many ways. So it really took me out of the classroom. It gave me the experience to be with a very heart-centered platform. Sally doesn't like to take any credit, but she is the backbone of this platform, and she's been guided to have the most amazing team work with her. And it takes a lot. It takes a lot to have it running at that caliber and that standard. And she expects a lot of her mediums. You have to have integrity, ethics, come from a heart-centered place, or, you know, you'll be asked to leave.

Yeah.

So when you talk about practice, you're saying you would sit with other mediums and you would read each other?

Yeah, you sit with other mediums and you read with each other at a beginning level, an intermediate level, an advanced level. And then you're able, when comfortable, to step up a little bit more to work with these starter clients. And, you know, assuming all goes well and you feel comfortable, you know, you'll go up a little bit more. And it changes again, because then when you get to the donated session, Everything changed for me then. Like, everything changed at that moment. I have such reverence for this work, and, um, I tell Sally it's really a pinch me moment because I cannot believe I'm being given the privilege to sit and have— be witness to the connection that's being made for someone that might come to that donated session that's never had a reading. They come in with all sorts of nerves, maybe because of their perception of TV, or maybe they think it's going to be strange. But most of the mediums are professionals, they were professionals, or they're currently professionals. And they've been able to hone these skills that we all have, we just happen to really work at honing them. But things, you know, changed and are evolving for me. But it's the 2,000 mediums, you know, 2,500 mediums before me that set the foundation for me to be able to come in and follow their integrity and follow their lead. So it's been a privilege.

Yeah.

And I will tell you, as someone who— I have a lot of friends who are medium, and I work with a lot of solopreneurs that are, you know, trying to set stuff up. And mediums typically are not great at business. We're usually really good at one thing and not so great at other things. Mediums typically aren't great at, you know, business. And I've set people up, you know, calendaring software, Calendly or Acuity, and trying to build a website, um, and all those things. And, and VeriSoul takes care of all that for you. And you can still have that and be on VeriSoul, uh, and that's, you know, because I know, Sally, you're not about like, we're not going to let mediums, quote, compete. You can still do your own thing. But, um, if you're not— if you don't want to have that, some people like, look, don't even worry about building a website or trying to do a calendaring system. Let let these guys handle it for you.

Yeah, and there's, there's a couple other things I would just add into what Sherri said and what you just said, Brian. One is when you, when you're thinking about the practices, this isn't just sitting with the same people over and over. And this is, this is a huge advantage that we have to what most experiences mediums have experienced from the past. So mediums who grow up in their mediumship, you know, even 10 years ago, did not have access to the global diversity of practice partners that we expose these mediums to. And what that means is you have to be even more open to the things that people in spirit are trying to tell you, to the words you use, to how you make sure you're, you know, phrasing things correctly, because it's very easy to have miscommunications when you're working with people who grew up in a different culture or a different socioeconomic situation, etc., etc. So that is layered in all the way from the practices through each one of those programs. The diversity of experience is what makes the mediums develop so fast, what helps the mediums develop so fast.

That's such a— I never really thought about that. But again, I've worked with a lot of mediums who are developing, and they'll, they'll go to— they'll take a class from one instructor, and then they'll go to another medium and take a class there. And so you've got a small group of people in your, in your circle or in your class or whatever, maybe 5 or 10 people, and you're practicing on each other, but they're people that you've known because you're sitting there, you know, with them the whole time. So this gives you a totally different experience, I would assume.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, uh, you know, think of it this way, um, we did some market research at the very beginning of contemplating VeriSoul, and what we found is that the typical mediumship client is a middle-aged white woman who has extra money. Um, and there's all sorts of reasons why, all sorts of barriers to connections and knowledge and, you know, income, all, all sorts of things, right? Once you break that down and you say, okay, that's not our target audience, our target audience is anyone who needs this connection, anyone who needs to know that their loved ones are still there and supporting them. Um, that is a much, much broader range that you need to learn to operate in. And so Spirit has done this beautiful job of easing mediums into that in a way that, you know, you could tell from what Sherry was saying, you know, at every stage, even though we warn the mediums, okay, there's going to be a new set of learnings, and it's going to be a little bit painful maybe sometimes, and, you know, just understand it's learnings, it's learnings. Um, but it's it's just a brilliant construct that helps mediums find a whole new level of openness and availability.

Yeah, absolutely. And you're right, when it comes to like the, the typical person that goes to a medium, there's— it's a fairly, fairly narrow slice of the demographic. And again, like you said, there are lots of barriers. There's, there's cultural, sometimes there's religious barriers, and there's certainly there's money. Um, because, you know, there are mediums out there that charge $800 a reading, $700 a reading, etc., which not everybody can afford. And people think, well, if they're more expensive, they must be better, and I want the best.

Yeah, that's absolutely not true. Absolutely want to just break that, um, right from the beginning. Absolutely not true. I've tried myself before I knew that I had mediumship skills. I tried some of the most expensive mediums and was often disappointed. Some mediums who are feeling competitive in their marketing will purposefully bump their prices up to create that perception. Yeah, some mediums will also purposefully fill their calendars up to create the perception of being fully booked and then come back to you with a last-minute opening. Now, I'm not saying this is the general way that mediums work. I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus.

Right.

All I'm saying is, you know, let's be transparent. Let's be available. We're here to serve, to help with these communications. And every single person, every single person deserves to know these connections.

Yeah.

And, you know, we don't want to preach that to anyone. We don't want to tell them what to believe. It's their journey. But we do want to make the experiences available.

Completely agree with you. And when it comes to mediumship, I always say, you know, it's like any other industry. There are bad mediums, there are decent mediums, there are good mediums, there are great mediums, and there are frauds. I mean, it doesn't mean that all mediums are frauds, there's certainly not, but there are frauds and there are people that are unethical in that field and they give— they bring down the reputation of everybody else. And this is what I was saying when we first got started. I think VeriSoul— I know VeriSoul solves so many of these problems because I don't have to worry, is this person ethical? Because you've taken care of that. Is this person— are they trained? Because they don't even get on— they can't even put themselves out there as a paid medium until they reach a certain level of proficiency.

Right, right. That's exactly right. And the level of proficiency has to be proven in so many ways from so many different angles. There is not a more thorough process for ensuring capability. Yeah.

And I know there are a couple people out there, and I'm actually very— I'm associated with one who certifies mediums. But there, as far as I know, there are no official standards, at least in the U.S., of like, you go to this board and you have this thing. So even when you see someone who's certified, now you've got to trust the person who's certifying them. And when it comes to very soul— again, And I want to be— you could be as transparent as you'd like, but when it comes to— because people are going to say, okay, well, how are they, how are they making money? Because I know some of these certification programs, you just pay them money and they'll put you in the directory.

Yeah, it's unfortunate, but that's, that's right. Yeah. Um, how are we making money? Is that, is that a question?

Yeah.

Yes, we're not. Um, we're not. We're trusting spirit right now that, uh, there will be, um, opportunities to make the platform self-funding. So we are set up as a for-profit company, but we're set up as a benefit company, public benefit company that allows us to stay focused on our mission instead of on profits. And that way we can continue to do the work the way Spirit designed and the way Spirit requested. And we're just doing it all with complete trust that it will become self-funding at some point.

Yeah, well, I think that's, that's fantastic. And, you know, we live in a world where we have to, we have to provide, but people might be thinking, You know, as a medium, it's like, well, how much is this training going to cost me? Or how much of my— how much of my— what I charge is— are they going to take?

Yeah, we don't take anything. The mediums get 100% of what they charge. They decide their prices. We don't interfere with their pricing and we don't charge mediums anything for using the platform. It's completely free. But we do hold them to high, high standards in terms of ethics and in terms of being responsible in terms of how they operate. And yeah, so it's a place— not every medium wants to be a part of an operation like VeriSoul. It's a place for people who are serious about this work for the right reasons. And that's how we turn out such highly skilled and highly compassionate mediums.

Yeah. And I can say again, it's gonna sound like I'm pumping this up, but I am. I'm a big believer. That's why you guys are on here. So I asked you to come back, Sally, because I do refer so many people to the very soul. And I have heard— I've heard nothing negative from anybody. I've had a couple of readings from your mediums. Um, I've actually formed some relationships with, with one of them, or formed a relationship with one of them that we, we do some things together. She's fantastic. And I just got her like randomly, uh, when I, when I came to the site. So my experience has been really good. And I, I love the fact that this removes barriers for, again, for the medium. So that's why I'm glad we have Sherri on here. To talk about from her perspective, but also for people that are looking for that. So, Sherry, you, you've done, um, I guess sounds like over 200 sessions in a year. Is that right? Yeah, that's, that's a lot. So what's that experience been like for you?

There is this sense of urgency within me, but it's calm. It's the only way I can explain it. Um, I don't— I couldn't even believe that it was that many readings. But just going back to certification and that topic real quickly, I know that there are certifications out there that may allow you to do 5 readings or 6 readings. Sally has you doing many more readings, many more practices. So the beauty of that for the medium is you're learning to hone your skill. You're learning discernment. You are learning to be fully present in circumstances that are outside of you. Someone can be— someone was in a sauna trying to get a reading to get away from her children. You can be in a situation— someone was in a fast food restaurant someone's in the car, you just learn to deal with different things. And it's wonderful because it does help you grow. And my experience has just been tremendous. I continue to take classes, I continue to learn and understand about grief. I love being a caring listener for Helping Parents Heal. And I think all of those factors. I'm been a caregiver to my mother for 8 years. All of those factors come into play. Spirit had a greater plan that I don't think I fully understood until I was at the Helping Parents Heal conference this past August, last summer, listening. And you were one of the speakers, listening to all the wonderful speakers. And I was walking with two of my friends to another talk. And it dawned on me in that moment that, oh my goodness, the 8 years that I've cared for my mom and watched complicated prolonged grief in her— not titles that I love, but maybe ones that people understand— taught me how to hold space and have the capacity and the compassion to sit with someone that may repeat themselves 10 times, that may have guilt, that may have shame, um, you know, that may have a lot of stories around the event of their child passing, their spouse, their parent, especially when it comes to passing by suicide or fentanyl poisoning and those topics. So everything prepared me, you know, everything prepared me, continues to prepare me because I understand that this is just the beginning, just the beginning. This comes with tremendous responsibility, so I will be a forever learner to bring the best version of myself to this platform and to helping parents heal.

Yeah, awesome. Just as you were talking, Sally, I don't know if you saw it, there was an orb that went across the screen. I did, I saw it.

Yeah, people tell me that all the time. I've yet to see it when I give readings. They're like, there's orbs I'm like, darn it, I never see it.

Because I'm, I'm a skeptic, and I've seen people say, oh, that's, you know, something's dust or something. When they go up, that's why I realize I know it's not dust, and it went like this across the screen.

Sherry's got a very special energy, a very— one of the things she was just talking about, Brian, I just want to add on, um, is about resilience. Um, one of the things that Spirit gave me right from the beginning was build resilience in the mediums. Build resilience. And so I tell the mediums at different stages, I tell them different parts of it. But when they're going into the working with the general public part, I explained to them, this part is going to help you learn how to do sessions in the middle of a football field while the football game is going on. Yeah, you know, there are, there are these, these funny traditions in mediumship that we've carried forward over the years. And there it kind of puts boundaries around, like, you have to be in a quiet place and you have to be alone and you have to be and you have to be and you have to be, you know, all these rules. And those, those things do help somebody who's learning mediumship, and they can be necessary for certain mediums given their development level. But you can develop past that. I mean, obviously you can develop past that, or nobody could ever do platform work. Um, so it's, it's—

I, I'll let you continue about— but it's really interesting you said that because when I talk to people about getting readings, I give them all those rules. I'm like, because, you know, don't, don't be inebriated, don't be in your car, don't, you know, be in a quiet place, be by yourself. Um, and it's interesting, you know, but when you branch out to the general public and people are going to stumble across the site, maybe they've never had a reading before and they're like, there's reading scheduled for 2:00 and they happen to be at Panera. They might say, I'll just do it on the phone.

Yeah, well, and every client, they click boxes. If you've been through our process, so, you know, you click a box saying, I'll be alone, I'll be in a quiet place, I won't be distracted, yada, yada, yada. And yet they show up the way they show up. And the mediums know that if they're ever uncomfortable with the situation, they can just end that session early. You know, if a client is, you know, in a situation where the medium just doesn't feel capable. But it does, over time, help the mediums become even better at what they do. And then when a client shows up in a quiet space with no distractions, their sessions are even just that much better because of how well trained that medium is.

Yeah. Yeah. So from a client perspective, if it's someone who's never had a reading before, never been to Very Soul, and they come to the site, what do they expect? How do they— what's the process for a first-time person coming?

Yeah. So I think the most important thing that people need to know is we will not ask you for a credit card. That's probably the biggest concern. And I completely understand it because so many websites that you go to, you have to spin a wheel to get a discount or you have to, you know, you can get a free one, but you have to sign up for a subscription that's going to automatically start using your credit card. We don't do any of that. You know, part of the directions from Spirit was to keep this thing scam-free. So we don't even, we don't even do a lot of marketing because of that. So we ask for simple information just so we know how to send them their appointment information. So we have to have an email and we want to be able to send you a text reminder. And then the client gets to choose between a donated session for somebody in need, or professional session if they can afford to pay. If they choose a professional session, they can go in and look at the mediums and read their profiles and read their reviews and make their choice. If they choose a what we call a donated session, then they go into the Spirit Match program. So they get a tiny bit of training, they do the checkboxes that I said of all the things they agree to, and then they pick a date and time and, and the Spirit algorithm matches them to a medium. They receive a Zoom link with an appointment, an appointment by email, and then they'll receive reminders. And then they simply have to show up on time and have their wonderful experience with their medium.

Now, I went to the site recently. We talked earlier before we got started, after my, after my friend passed away, and I was thinking about scheduling a session. And I realized there's a lot of mediums on there now. So what is— for a person coming, they might feel a little bit overwhelmed when it comes to choosing a medium. What do you suggest? And there's different mediums, different price points. So how does a person navigate that?

Yeah, I think, I think don't try to be too logical about it, is my advice, is your loved ones in spirit are trying to point you in a direction. Because you're paying, we need to give you a choice. You know, I think spirit would rather make the choice, and they can make that choice through you if you let them. So see who you're drawn towards. For instance, the professional mediums are juggled every time somebody taps that screen. So, okay, I was wondering about that. Yeah. So the people toward the top of that screen at that time are probably people that spirit's trying to get you to.

Okay.

So you can make your choice however you want. But I would say do not ignore your intuition.

Yeah, I love that. And you know, it's funny, because I've said the same thing. I have a, I have a list of trusted mediums I give when people ask, because I get asked so often. And then people say, well, how do I choose between them? I'm like, use your intuition. Now, as a very logical engineer, left-brained person, that's kind of hard for me. But I think that's the best way to do it. Because you can't go by price, for example. And we've already, we've already, we've already touched on this. There is this perception because we think if something's more expensive, it must be better. Therefore, mediums charge more, they must be better. We've already, we've already touched on that. Um, and that's my experience has been the same as yours. I've some, some very not well-known mediums that aren't charging much can be fantastic. And I've seen people who charge a lot of money that were really disappointing.

Yeah, yeah, it's unfortunate, but comes with the territory.

So yeah, yeah, well, I think it's true of, you know, I can say it's— mediums are— hopefully mediums are in this because it's a calling, not a business. But there are some people that are in it because it's a business. And I love, you know, Sherry, I think, is not— and I think I know Sherry's an example of one of your mediums. It's like, you can tell this is a calling, this is a— this is a passion, this is a serving the community. And sure, I want to go back to something you were saying earlier that might surprise people. You talked about development. I'm still taking classes. Okay, well, you've been doing readings for, you know, years now. You've done over 200 in the last year. And people might say, well, I thought this was a gift. It just, it just kind of comes. And why would you need to take classes?

So, yes, it does feel to some people that it's a gift. I've learned it's a calling, it's a skill. No one's really gifted. We'd like to think we are. It's a skill. We all have it. We all have intuition. When I began to open up in 2016, I didn't know I was opening up. My communication with my father was so clear. It was so clear. And I didn't understand. Why my brother and my mom were having such a hard time, because I spoke to him and he answered.

Hmm.

And this happened for about a year and a half, almost 2 years, but very strongly for a year and a half. A lot of direction, a lot of details, undeniable stuff. Then came, you know, 4 years later, I learned about Suzanne Giesemann, took a class, and it was only to connect with my dad. That was my only interest. And then as I progressed in taking the classes and honing in some of these skills, what I was learning from the classes and the mentorship, like Gordon Smith's mentorship, it wasn't about mediumship. It was about your own spiritual growth. I have friends that would take these mentorship programs with me, and I would get up at 7 AM for Gordon Smith on a Sunday. That was the dedication. And they were— Gordon Smith, for people that are listening, yes, in the UK, a very respected and kind gentleman. They would say, we're not getting tools. Where are the tools? You know, I want the name. I want the date. That's what I want. And I realized that's not why we're taking this. He's breaking down the barriers that we hold ourselves back with. And the reason I continue to take classes, especially in grief, I'm currently enrolled in David Kessler's grief educator certification, because there's a responsibility that comes with this. And after the session is over, sometimes you, you may receive an email, someone is desperate.. And it's not that another mediumship reading is going to help. It's that grief, you know, assistance that's going to help. So the classes are for my own personal growth. I know that spirit is developing me, you know, going back to what you had said as far as suggesting to friends or clients on how to prepare for a reading. Well, I was one of those developing mediums that love to light the candle, love doing my meditation. I had my system down.

Mm-hmm.

Spirit knocks that right out. There are distractions. You are placed in positions of hearing things that you've never heard before, and you need to be respectful and hold space for that and understand that Sherri's world is very limited and narrow. There's an expansive world out there and circumstances and different grief and different loss. So I will continue to take classes because respectfully, I need to— I need to keep growing as a person. And I know spirit has my back to grow as a medium, but I need to step up and, and continue on my end as well. So that's why.

So, and this is for either one of you, what are some perceptions about mediumship that you would like to change with very soul or personally? What are some, what are some of the things that you'd like to change about the perceptions of mediumship?

I'll start with one. And I think Sherry touched on a little bit, but I think in this perception issue even exists with some mediums. I think we forget that it is about us being an instrument. And to be the best instrument, we have to almost not be there when it occurs. I'm not saying that very eloquently, but the very best mediumship happens without the personality of Sally, without the personality of Sherry. It happens when we can almost just melt away. And that takes a lot of self-work. To be able to allow that. We talk a lot about allowing spirit to use us, but it takes many, many years and many, many experiences to really fully understand what does that mean. Now, what could you guys relate to that you could relate to the moment that you first learned about your child's passing? That moment, there's no ego in you. Right? You are at, you know, you're on the floor, you're stripped.

Yeah, right, right, right.

And that is where a medium needs to be able to purposefully take themselves to, to that place where you're just stripped of your ego and all of the things that you would normally be thinking about and worrying about and wondering about. And I hope I get a good review, or I hope that I got all the things. You have to just be able to put, put all that aside. That is the hardest part of mediumship. So I don't know, Sherry, what else, what else do you think?

I love everything that you said, Sally. What I would love is that they know that they're— we're able as mediums to connect with their loved one because they're there. They're in the session there. I'm not connecting to their loved one because I have some magic power. We all have these abilities. But what I like to share with them, because I used to get frustrated early on hearing that, well, we all have these abilities, you can do that. But tell me how, because it's, it's tell me how then, because it's not happening. And for example, you know, something really simple that Maureen Hancock, who's a medium, had showed an exercise on helping parents heal, on how to feel the energy of a loved one. And I like to leave people with that, that I feel want that, you know, so they can feel it. But I encourage them to learn how to connect with their person. It's just a softer way. It's very subtle. You know, we expect things. When I would feel my father's hand pressing up against my back, it was in my mind's eye that I knew it was his hand. But it was that energy, that increased energy, that I knew it was my dad's hand. And so I wish someone knew that. Oh, okay. So it's that feeling, it's that extra charge, or it's that feather-like touch to my face, or it's that thought drop that comes in out of nowhere. That's my loved one. And it's that discernment because You don't want people to depend on you. I actually came to Sally because someone wanted to make more appointments with me. I don't want them reliant on me. I want them to have the tools to do it themselves and not think like I have this power or any other medium, because we don't, you know, but to tell them how You know, to tell them how to have that connection.

No, no, I was going to ask you, what do you think are some of the perceptions about mediums that we should be talking to? Because you, you experience this all the time with folks.

Um, well, you know, it's interesting. They're, they're kind of all over the place. I mean, the first one that comes to mind is people think that, you know, mediumship is just a big racket and it's all, you know, they're all frauds. Um, and I think again, you guys take away a lot of that because people might think of, okay, well, they, they can look me up and, you know, etc. Uh, you're getting a minimal amount of information from people that you can get going forward. And, and what it's always— it's, it's really funny to me. I kind of smile when people say that because I'm like, those are usually people who haven't had a medium reading. If you've had a good medium reading, it blows that open. And I'm thinking about my, my friend, um, who She lost her husband, and she was a total materialist, and she came to me and said, I want to prove myself once and for all this isn't real. So give me the best medium you know, and I'm going to send you to her. You're gonna— I'm gonna go to her and I'm gonna give her fake, you know, information. But long story short, she's, she's still a very good friend of mine, and she's actually really good friends with the medium I sent her to. They became like best buddies because she was like, she was blown away. Um, so that's, that's one thing you can do. But then, then there's the, um you know, they're all about the money, you know, they're all, they're all, they all charge $700 a session, they all charge $800. And that's not true. Those are just the people that happen to be seeing, um, you know, we talked about this, the fact if you pay more then you're going to get a better reading, um, you know, we know that's not true. So I, again, I think not— I think I know you guys have addressed a lot of those issues, you know, um, and I love the fact that you the mediums, I know that the mediums I'm going to see are already pre-qualified to some extent, right? As opposed to just somebody out of phone book or someone who went to a weekend seminar and took a mediumship class and says, well, now I'm a medium, I'm going to charge $200 for readings.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And if you think about any of the certification programs that happen, you know, in a class, or they happen over a few days or whatever, like mediums have to have— with us, they have to be able to perform at that level even better over months. They have to be able to show consistency as well. And in terms of evidence, and this is really important, it's like we're not just looking for any evidence, we're looking for compelling, unknowable evidence. That's the standard we hold ourselves to— unknowable evidence. And we often hear back from clients, and I'll put this right in their feedback that we publish on our Facebook site, by the way, they'll say, she told me something only my husband and I knew. Yeah, my husband and I knew, there's no way she could have known that. That those are the moments, right? But can I talk to one other thing that I think is really important? I just don't want to miss getting this in.

Yeah, please.

And that is, there are these different aspects of mediumship, you know, there is the evidential portion, and there's the ability to do that. There's the approachability of the medium, you know, Can you— do you feel a compassionate person sitting across from you, or do you feel like somebody's, you know, standing apart from you and just rattling off evidence? There's also this aspect of emotion ability. So call it emote ability. I don't think it's a real word, but, but I use it. It's the ability to have— but first of all, you have to have a high emotional quotient. So you have to have a good perception of other people's emotions, and an ability to control and manage your own emotions in the moment. And then as a medium, to allow spirit's emotions to flow through you and to be able to share those in an emotive way that helps the client more fully experience their person. Those are the sessions when you have a medium who's great with evidence, who's highly compassionate, and who has that emote ability. Those are the sessions where clients will tell us, I felt him there, I felt her there. Yeah, those are the— that's, that's gold. That's where we want to be.

I think you said that perfectly. And again, I've worked with a lot of mediums in different capacities and people have done, you know, been trained by different things. And I know the British have a particular way of doing mediumship, and some of them are very particular about the way they do it. And they're like, just, just evidence, name, rank, and serial number. And that the evidence is important, but also people want to feel that connection. They want to feel a connection with the medium. They want to know the medium cares. And the message is important too. And I've seen mediums do one or the other. Some, some will just give you, oh, your grandmother really loves you, your father's really proud of you, stuff like that. Which is— that gives mediums a bad name because anybody can say that. So you've got to be For me, when I— and I've been a test sitter many times— I have to feel the balance because I've had some that'll just like— I'll be sitting here taking notes and they're just running down facts and I'm just writing facts. And at the end of that reading, I'm like, that didn't feel like anything. That didn't, that didn't change my life. But when someone says, oh, I feel your daughter here, and, and they give me something specific about her and they tell me about her personality, that's when I really feel that connection.

Yeah, the difference is in the mission, right? If your mission is just to prove life after death, then, then evidence, right? But that's not our mission. Our mission is to help you hear from your loved one, and to help you have a meaningful interaction with your loved ones so that you know they're there so that you can start building your own connections.

Yeah, I love you said that. And this is why I want to have you on because I want people to understand that it's not just about that. I mean, proving it is great, and that's important, but it's not— it's not the only thing.

I could add something really quick to that. Yeah, it's really quick. Something that I've found very new for me that I love is when a loved one shares something that happens later and it's out of left field.

Yeah.

And for those developing mediums, we know when we get that there's some nerves with it because you know you have to say it because you know it's, you know, evidence, but it can throw the reading, especially if it's really from left field. And I'll give a very, very quick example. I was in a session with a guest from VeriSoul, a father whose son passed. A lot of emotions, a lot of evidence. He could feel his son. We were both very touched by the session. Before the session closes, as I'm saying goodbye to him, his son shows me a floating guitar, a floating electric guitar. I mention it to the father, and you can see his energy diminished. His son didn't play the electric guitar, and so I reassured him, don't discount everything that's come through. Just look, look for that. It could be on a card, it could be in a magazine, it could have his name next to a guitar. Just be open to it, but don't let that connection go away because of that. Close the session. The next day, this gentleman emails me and says to me, you are not going to believe this. I am working with an AI app for writing. He's a writer. And he said an image— and bless him, he screenshotted it for me, which touched my heart— an image of an electric guitar was on the app. And he said, this is a writing app. There's no images. There are no images. And he couldn't believe it. But that, Brian D Smith, that is why we do this. Because forget what I brought, what came through from his son, from my mouth to him. It's that evidence later that, hey, Dad, I got you. I'm here. Yeah, you know, that's huge. So those are the, those are the moments that just make your heart melt, you know.

Yeah, as you said, that reminded me of a story. I had a reading with, uh, a medium. I won't say her name right now, but she's, she's famous. And she said something about like she saw something that was going to happen, and, and I'm like, that's never going to happen. She said, I see you flying to a conference, you know, speaking in front, behind a podium, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, Okay, don't like to travel. I hate flying. I, I had never spoken in person at that time or anything. I only did things through Zoom. And then like it was a year and a half or 2 years later, I was speaking at the Help a Parent Heal conference, the first one in Arizona. And I was on my way back, I was on the plane. Long story, crazy events happened. The Wi-Fi wasn't working, so I decided to listen to something on my phone, and that reading happened to come up. And I was like, let me just listen to this reading again because it It wasn't— I was on my phone. I started listening to it, and I remembered that she had said this was going to happen. And I'm like, what are the chances? First of all, it did happen, and then I happened to listen to it when I was on the plane on the way back, and I had, I had no memory that she'd even given me that information. So that's something that, like, you can't make that up. And, you know, and she didn't guess it because nobody ever would have.

Yeah, yeah.

I love those moments.

Yeah, they find so many ways to let us know. They find so many ways to let us know. It's just, it's beautiful.

Yeah.

And we hear thousands of stories like this. That's, that's the amazing thing about the platform too, is we've got all this proof. We've got all of this, you know, feedback from so many people who have been through these experiences to show how their experiences went and how they knew Yeah, that's an amazing thing.

And I wanted to ask you about that, Sally, because I went to verisoul.com, as I said, a couple weeks ago, and then I went again today before getting ready for this. But I, um, I think you sent me a link to specials.verisoul.com, and that, that looks a little bit different. Um, so, um, I saw— when I saw that, I saw all the Instagram or TikTok posts or whatever, all the evidence on it. So when people are going to the site, which Where should they go?

Yeah, good question. So we are— we're behind on updating our, our web. So our website is about 3 and a half years old now. So the landing page that you went to is what we use when we're going out social media, via social media to find what we call outreach clients, people who otherwise wouldn't typically be searching for mediums.

Okay.

So that, that specials page is the easiest entry point, I think. But they could either go to verysoul.com. It's, it's, you know, it's fine. They can go in and book an appointment. We're working on improving the website though, so that they can learn more about us more quickly. Um, just like the landing page.

Yeah. Well, I, I just want to tell you this. I maybe should have told you when we weren't on the air, but I love the landing page because I just, I happen to hit it and I'm like, because I thought as a, as a person coming here, if I don't know, I like that social proof you've got there.

Yeah.

And with all the readings that you guys and all the stories that you have, it's really great to get that out there. So we're coming to the end of our time, but I know you had some pretty specific goals for VeriSoul when we talked a couple of years ago. Tell me where you are relative to those goals and where do you see things going in the next year or two?

Yeah. So, so numerically, so I'm a numbers person, a mathematician, actuary by background, right? You know that, right? So I'm all about the numbers too. Mathematically, we wanted to be at 1 million sessions by the end of 2026. We're just under 100,000 right now, but we're on a very fast ramp. So I don't know if we'll hit 1 million or not. But what I do know is we'll have made significant impact in terms of sharing these experiences with many people. You know, the most important thing that we're trying to establish is to help people know that they can trust us and that there is a lot of structure and standards and, you know, statistics and things that are going on behind the scenes that help ensure that these are really good practitioners and that they can be trusted. That's the most important thing. We're just trying to establish the brand that way and help make sure that people know what's happening inside VeriSoul.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I can tell you, I, you know, I keep saying it over and over again, but I really mean it. I am so impressed by, you know, what you've done, the platform you've given. Again, I refer developing mediums to you guys, I refer clients to you guys. I think it's a great place to bring the two together. It's a place where people can go and they can know that I'm getting a vetted medium, that's not going to charge me an arm and a leg and who is actually going to be available. Because, uh, there's some people that I don't even recommend because you can't get to them, um, and some people I don't recommend because they charge, you know, too much. And this is a nice sweet spot. It's a great place for a very low-risk thing, right? Because you don't want to go out and have your first reading be you spent $800 on something and then you get really disappointed. So, um, you know, it's— this is— this— I, I'm a, I'm a low-risk kind of person. So like, I like the fact this is low— this is low risk.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. My very first reading, Brian, after I had a significant loss, before I knew it was a medium, my very first reading was $50. $50. It was by a medium who had no certifications, had only had some training, and she, she helped me for over 2.5 hours. Yeah, the first part of it was an hour 15. She just kept going, going, going, going. She had so many details. It was so good. And then she rescheduled more time with me and didn't charge me for it. And I realized that, number one, that's what, that's what service looks like, right? She was really wanted my friend to be able to tell me everything she wanted to tell me about her death, because there were some very important details there that needed to be dealt with. But she was doing it for all the right reasons. And she was this incredible instrument. She was just this incredible instrument. So it taught me a lot right from the very beginning about what's possible, and how many of the, the traps around mediumship just aren't necessary. And, you know, obviously Spirit put that right in their designs, too.

Yeah, exactly. Um, Sherry, anything that I, I didn't ask you that I should have?

Um, no, no, I mean, we can sit here for another hour. I think we're both so passionate, um, about this topic. And the only thing I would add is any parent or anyone who, um, has just recently had someone transition that may see us as joyful and very bright as we speak about the topic, don't mistake that for the reverence we hold for what you're going through. We're very passionate about this work. So just to make a distinction that we understand, we've had loss, we understand grief, and, you know, just wanted to make that distinction.

Yeah, that's a really good point. I always try to remember to do that too, because for me, it's been, uh, it'll be 10 years in June since my daughter passed. So, um, I want to be mindful of people that are in that early grief who might be thinking, you know, I'm never going to get back to, to joy or passion again. And I want to let people know that that is possible, but we have to also honor, you know, where we are today. So appreciate you sharing that. I want to thank you guys both for, for being here this afternoon. I want to thank you for what you're doing with with VeriSoul. So we've said it a thousand times, but it's verisoul.com. So V-E-R-Y. Uh, if you have any doubts, if you're listening to this, you've never had a mediumship reading, it's a great place to get started. If you have had a reading and you need another reading, it's a great place to find somebody who's trusted to, to do that again. So, um, that— I want to say, uh, thank you guys and have a great afternoon.

Thank you.

Hi there, I'm really excited to tell you about my latest ebook. It's 4 lessons that you can learn from the near-death experience without going through all the trouble of dying to learn them. I've been studying NDEs for several years now. I am completely convinced that not only are they 100% real, but that there's some very universal wisdom that we can get from the near-death experience. And I've distilled that down in this book into 4 short lessons. And I've also given you all the reasons why I believe that NDEs are absolutely real. So go to www.grieftogrowth.com/NDElessons to pick it up for free. Www.grief2growth.com/NDElessons. I hope you enjoy it.