How To Be Truly Unmessable With- with Josselyne Herman-Saccio EP 420

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Close your eyes and imagine. What are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain? The things that bring us grief are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Hey there, welcome to Grief to Growth, where we explore life's biggest questions: who we are, why we're here, and how we can navigate the challenges that come our way. Whether you're a longtime listener, you're tuning in for the first time, I'm really glad you're here. I'm your host, Brian D Smith. And today we're diving into a powerful conversation about how to become truly unmessable with no matter what life throws at you. My guest today is Jocelyn Herman Saccio, Jocelyn is a master coach in the art of being unmessable with and has spent over 30 years helping people break free from the barriers to keep them from living their dreams right now, not someday. She's an entrepreneur. She's an author, a course leader, and the creator of a transformative pro— of transformative programs designed to empower people to handle anything life throws their way. In this episode, we're going to explore what it really means to be unmessable with, the number one thing that messes with most people and how you can overcome it. How to turn complaints into powerful requests. We'll talk about practical tools to prevent burnout and overwhelm. And most importantly, you can start— how you can start living your dream life today. Again, not in the future, but right now. Jocelyn is all about transformation, as you know we are here. And I know this conversation is going to challenge what you think about what's possible for your life. So stick around, because I think this episode could be the shift you've been waiting for. So let's dive in. I want to welcome Jocelyn Herman Satchew.

Thanks for having me.

Well, it's good to have you here. Did I pronounce your last name correctly?

Yes, you did. I was waiting and you did. Yeah, yeah.

I meant to ask you before we start recording, so I got it right. It's good. So first of all, tell people what it means to be unmessable with.

Yeah, a lot of people— I'll tell you what it doesn't mean, because a lot of people hear it and think, oh, it's being tough or not showing your feelings or something. And that's not what it means at all. It's really about being able to stay in the space of creation and vision. Without getting hooked or triggered or thrown off course, you know, by circumstances or people or situations. Because most people end up being in a reaction mode versus a correct— a creation mode. And being unmessable with is being able to stay in that creation mode moment to moment to moment. Okay, so regardless of what's going on, being able to, to stay creative and being creative and also You know, being able to act from your vision, not from your fears or your concerns or your reasons or your justifications, but actually have your vision pull forth your actions so you can be fulfilling on your dreams rather than, yeah, but what if this happens? Or, you know, second-guessing, overthinking, all the things that mess with people.

Yeah. So how did you— what prompted you to come up with this?

Well, the word I got a sense of it back when I was like 11, actually, um, or 8 years old, when my mother— my parents were getting separated. My father had had affairs and a kind of a high-profile affair back in the '70s with Elizabeth Taylor, of all people. And my parents ended up getting separated at that time. And my mother was very much like a victim of this whole circumstance, you know, like she moved out to LA to support my dad's career. And then this whole thing happened. And She at that time did a transformative seminar. And it's not around anymore, but it was called the S Training. And when she came out of that training, she was like a force of nature. It was like whatever she was creating, she could fulfill on it was like unbelievable. I literally saw her go in one way and come out this other way. And, you know, to the point where she said to my father, I'm taking the kids back to New York. And he's like, no, you're not, you know, not unless you get a job and an apartment in the PS 6 district. And it has to be under $600 a month or something, something that he thought she could never accomplish. And she said, "Good, take the kids for 2 weeks, I'll be back." She went to New York for 2 weeks and came back and had met every one of those things. But it was like magic. She got an apartment on the last block of the PS 6 district and it was $599 a month. You know, like just this kind of magic space. And we moved back to New York. And then a year later, my father did the same transformative seminar and they got back together.

Oh, wow.

So, and they've been together for 65 years, and they're in their 90s. And it's, you know, like, if it hadn't been for transformation, I wouldn't have the family that I have by any means. But that was like the sense of what I mean by unmessable with. And then flash forward, oh my God, this is maybe 30 years ago, 25 years ago, I was on a call with a bunch of people that were leading programs for this company that I led programs for, for 30 years. And the person who was leading the call said something to someone else on the call. It wasn't even directed at me, but he said, you're so messable with. And I latched on to that word and I was like, un-messable with. That's what I've been trying to put language to for all these years. So I just started creating like a world around that word, you know, putting it in the Urban Dictionary, getting mugs and branding it and everything that I do.

Yeah. Yeah. So it's— this is a program that you've developed to help other people to, to become un-messable with.

Yeah, it's a methodology. I have many programs. I have courses. I have group coaching programs. I have, you know, mastery programs. But the methodology is all about shifting from reacting to creating.

Okay. Okay. And so when you say creating, what does that— what does that mean?

It means— well, let's just— I'll take like an actual example. Let's say you want to start a business. I mean, I'll just use that as an example, right? And Now you're afraid to start that. People are naturally afraid. You know, what if it's too risky? I need to, you know, have an income. You know, I gotta pay for things for my family. So those reasons usually stop people. They mess with people from acting on their dreams. So what I do with people is identify their vision. I architect a vision with them. So a vision is a little different than goals, but we also work on goals. And then we drive up everything that messes with them in acting on those goals. And fulfilling that vision so that we can deal with those Messable With moments and hack them. So they can come up with a hack to shift them from the world of reaction back over to the world of creation so that they're in action fulfilling on their dreams and visions and goals for their life, whether it's in their business or their family or their wellbeing or the world, you know, making the difference they wanna make in the world. So many people get stopped. Well, who am I? How can I do it? How am I gonna have the impact? Look at the rules and the politics and the da da da. That could stop someone from fulfilling their vision. So I get 'em back on track so that they can be in action.

Okay, okay. And I know a lot of people are going through a lot of turmoil right now. They might really feel messed with, with what's going on around us. So how could we apply that to maybe political turmoil, for example?

Well, you know, I had a client recently in my group coaching program who, she has one political view and her family, her entire family has a different political view. And it was right around Thanksgiving where they were going to get together for Thanksgiving and the election had just passed. And it doesn't even matter who had which view, right?

Right.

Terrified about having this family get together because she's like, it's just going to be an argument and da da da da da. So I had her design a vision for this time with her family. Like, what did she really want to have the experience of being together as a family be? And she created something like, I mean, don't quote me, but it was something like, you know, fun and togetherness, something like that, right? As like an experience, as a space. So then she created— I worked with her to create actions that she could take that would presence fun and togetherness or manifest it right then, like a game night or, you know, coming up with an outing or a scavenger hunt or things that were, you know, going to actually bring into existence fun and togetherness. Rather than wait for the default conversation, which would be about the election, right? What are you going to create to fill the space? Because if you don't create something, then the past is going to create it by default, or just people's opinions creates it by default, because that's mostly what we traffic in. I mean, if you turn on the news, it's all opinion and views, and it's not a lot of creating. It's a lot of describing.

And yeah.

Yeah, that's a different mode. So she ended— flash forward, she had this amazing holiday. Didn't even come up once, not one argument about the election.

It was—

but she had created something to fulfill on versus hoping that it doesn't get messed up, which is, you know, sort of what people resort to when you don't have tools. You resort to hope.

Yeah, yeah. So instead of just waiting for things to happen we are actually creating the things that we want to happen. And I think that you're saying by default, I mean, people, we're not taught, you know, how to do that.

No, I think mostly our brains are trained to react. I mean, if you think about it back from like the caveman days, you know, we had to be constantly reacting to, you know, dinosaur's gonna eat us, we've gotta, you know, react and be able to pivot and get the heck out of there. And now, although our society has evolved quite a bit, our brains really haven't. Evolved that much, and a conversation occurs as scary as a dinosaur, you know, for our brain. So it's constantly ready to fight or flight or freeze. That's all reaction.

Yeah, I think that's, that's very true. Um, and I, I totally agree with that. I think everybody, I think, can, can recognize that in themselves. You know, we have that something happens and then there's the, like, the reflexive thing that we do, or the, the, yeah, like, kind of the reflex action that we take. As opposed to a thought-out, planned process, which I guess would, by using your framework and going through some of your programs, we can learn how to get to that.

Yeah, and you can, you know, I have on my website at giftfromjosss.com, two S's, a lot of free downloads that people can use to get into this world. There's workbooks, there's videos, there's processes, there's free like challenges, 5-day challenge, you know, things that you can use to exercise this muscle and start to see what is it, feel like? What is my experience of life as I create life as opposed to just reacting to what life is throwing at me? And the thing about the people that I work with, most of the people that I work with in my higher ticket programs are entrepreneurs and founders and that's who can afford coaching like that, right? And they are really good at reacting. So they're very effective. People who are highly effective are great reactors. That doesn't mean they're creating. It doesn't mean there's magic happening. It means they're good at putting out fires and dealing with stuff. And that's a very different muscle, right? And sometimes those people take even more to kind of retrain because they've won from being a good reactor. They've accomplished and made money and success and all this stuff that people think they want. But ultimately, those things run dry because if you're not connected to your vision, Fulfillment is missing, satisfaction is missing, and we've all known people that are extremely successful in terms of the numbers, but they're not fulfilled, they're not satisfied. There's no magic. So I like to think I'm like a sorcerer. I bring magic back to people's lives.

Yeah, as you were, as you were describing that, it reminds me of, uh, something I, I, I took, uh, called Positive Intelligence, and we talk about the sages and, and the saboteurs. And again, and it's interesting because when we get with successful people like you're talking about, a lot of times when we say we want you to think this way, they're like, well, this is, this is what got me here. This is what has made me successful. Do you run into that where people resist letting go of that?

Absolutely. And it's not that they resist it. I mean, they, they'd like to let go of it, but they're afraid because uncertainty is like the devil to people. And uncertainty is actually a very high space. Of being able to function because there is no real certainty. I mean, it's an illusion of certainty, as you and I both know, right? Life where things happen and it's like, what the heck just happened? That was my whole future just disappeared in 2 seconds, right? You know, I know in our past conversations we've shared some things about that that we have in common, but people think there's certainty and that's the brain is, is designed to produce certainty, to predict the future by drawing on the past. So it's, it's actually like a self-fulfilling prophecy. So when people say, well, this is what's gotten me here, I'll say, yeah, but what got you here isn't going to get you where you want to go. Otherwise, why do you have me? Yeah, if you want to get where you're going already, you don't need me. If you want to get someplace exponentially beyond what's predictable, that's when you hire a coach. You know, an Olympic athlete doesn't hire a coach so that they can go run a 5K. They hire a coach so that they can perform in the Olympics.

Yeah. Well, and it's, you know, it's also interesting is I guess it depends on how we define success, because people might say I'm successful in terms of making these outward things, making money, getting promotions, whatever, but they may not be fulfilled.

Exactly. And a lot of people don't even deal with that because they're so busy getting things done and, you know, getting through this quarter or that quarter or the next meeting or the next goal. And a lot of the work that I do is especially with my Mastery Group, which I work with people for like a year. And these are entrepreneurs who fundamentally want to minimally double their business but have more time and freedom and creation in the process because you can double your business by working twice as much, but it's much more powerful to reduce how many hours you're working and double your business, which is really more like an exponential increase, not even a double, right? And that's what I work on with people. And the biggest thing that messes with entrepreneurs is delegating and trust. They don't trust other people to, you know, they're like, I can, it's easier if I just do it myself. It's quicker if I just do it myself. Like to train somebody just take too long. And it's a myth because yes, there's gonna be some training time, but then once you get that time back, it's like, are you kidding me? I mean, that's my biggest success with people is when they're working less, not to do nothing, but to like fulfill on something that really matters to them, like their family or travel, or maybe a whole other project that could impact their community, but they have no time to do it and they're gonna do it someday. I disappear someday from people's vocabulary.

Really? Okay. Yeah, I noticed that when I was looking at your material, you, you're very focused on, on now, things we can do immediately, right?

Yeah, because that's actually the only time that is real. There is no other time other than now, except in our conversations. Like, we talk about the past and we talk about the future, but in reality, we live right now. We've never lived in the past and we've never lived in the future and we've never gotten to someday and can't find it on a calendar. And it's— it— this is it. This is the only real time there is. So if you can't have now be freaking awesome, then what are you doing?

Yeah, that's, that's a great point. So how does someone— if someone's listening, how do, how do people recognize when they're being messed with by life?

Yeah, I, I have them identify what I call a red flag. So there's a symptom, it's like a physical symptom that happens when you're in that world of reaction. And for each person it's distinct, but there's sort of, you know, there's themes. Like some people, for me personally, my chest gets tight and I start to breathe a little bit more shallow. When I'm— when that happens to me, I know I am reacting. And I don't even have to know what I'm reacting to. I know that when I'm in that state something's going on. So if you can identify the symptom, like, just look for yourself. What happens for you physically in your body when you're either in survival mode or reacting or afraid or, you know, angry or irritated? Any kind of reaction that's automatic like that?

Yeah, I know I can relate to that. You know, it's if I get upset, I can feel it, like, kind of similar, I guess, what you were saying, like, in my chest or And that quickening of your breath is— it's that— I think it's the fight or flight thing kicking in. It's a physiological response that we have.

That's exactly it. So people, if they can identify what their physiological expression of that fight or flight response reaction is, sometimes it's a flushed face, sometimes it's a pit in your stomach, you know, whatever it is, tightness in your neck, then you can use that as a red flag. Oh, I am going down that road right now, so I gotta now hack that. That's what you hack. You hack the physiological reaction because that is happening physically in your brain. What's happening is your amygdala is firing, which is this back part of your brain, and it sends you into fight, flight, freeze kind of mode. And you have to interrupt physically where your brain is functioning from. So there's some very simple hacks. I, I really invite people to create a hack that they can, you know, practice themselves. But the simplest one is a breath hack where you can just breathe in for 3 and breathe out for 6, and that sort of resets you to like a neutral or a nothing position. The problem with that, if you just do that, it's not sufficient because the muscle memory is to pull you into that world of reaction. So if you just get to neutral, you're going to be sucked right back down that road. In the next nanosecond. So what I do that's beyond just that moment of relief, which most people talk about— I mean, a lot of the thought leaders are like, oh, and then you can just, you know, get to that moment of, you know, relief. And I'm like, yeah, but that doesn't help ultimately the next moment because then you're back in it. So what we do is have you pre-create a vision for that situation, that relationship, that life, so that it's there as another road to go down. So you get to neutral, but now you're gonna go down that road like my client did with fun and togetherness. So if she got hooked about some political thing, she could do her hack. Her hack, I think, was shaking her hands. And she got back to nothing. And then she went to her fun and togetherness and took an action that would put her on that road of fun and togetherness, would express it, would presence it right now, not someday, not next week, not once they're gone, you know, but in that moment so that she's living the vision. Living the dream right then.

Wow. Okay, that sounds great.

Um, it takes practice.

Yeah, well, yeah, again, it does, it does take practice. And, um, and I, and I've been doing something I guess similar, um, and it does become more, uh, natural I guess after you do it for a while. But it takes a while, and the first thing you have to do is catch yourself going into that mode. I think that's the problem that most people have. They're not cognizant enough of their own thoughts or their own thought processes to catch themselves falling down that trap.

That's why I don't make it about thoughts. It's the physical, the chest thing or the face thing, because you're gonna see or feel that way before your brain recognizes some rationale for it.

Oh really? Okay.

Yeah, it happens before your, oh, I'm second-guessing myself conversation. No, you're tense here. You're going down that road. It doesn't matter what the explanation is for it. It's just you're about to go down the left road. Get back to the center and go down the right road.

Yeah.

Not right, like right or wrong, but the right. Yeah.

So how do limiting beliefs come into play with things that mess with us?

That's a big thing that messes with people. I mean, I'll just share from my own life. When I was little, when I was like 4 or 5, all I wanted to do was be a singer. And then at like 5, I remember I was having a conversation with my dad in our car, and he was a painter. He painted the painting behind me for those of you that are watching this instead of listening. And he had stopped painting. He wasn't like painting as much. And I said to him, "Why did you stop painting?" This is at 5, right? And he just says kind of casually, "Well, you can't do your art as your career." Now, it's not like he was trying to kill my dream, but for him, that was the truth, right? And at 5, you know, that seemed logical. So it wasn't that he said it, but I said to myself, "You can't do your art as your career." And that became the truth.

Yeah.

So that became what we would call a limiting belief. And I believed it. And I, and I found evidence for it. Look at all my friends that were actors that were starving actors. I didn't want to be a star— a starving actor. You can't do your art as your career. Now, I didn't see all the evidence for all the people that were doing their art as their career because it didn't fit my narrative or my belief. And it becomes like a lens that you're looking at life through. So flash forward to, you know, I was in my very early 20s and I was in a transformative workshop, and somebody was saying something, and I all of a sudden realized, wait a minute, what if that's not the truth? What if that's just something I said at like 5, you know, in the infinite wisdom of 5, and got stuck with? And it loosened its grip on me, and within 3 weeks I had a record deal, and that record went number 1, you know, in the country. So it's— that's how powerful our beliefs are. They can stop us and they can free us. Yeah, I am. And that's really the job of a good coach is to have you see your blind spots, those things that are limiting you that you don't even realize you're being limited by. You just think it's the truth. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief, most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up. So you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it. The community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing. Listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack, or or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there. Yeah, you know, as you were saying that, I was thinking about when I was a kid, my parents— it's really weird, I didn't realize it until I was in my 20s or 30s, I guess. And our family, it's like you never wanted to own your own business. And I met a friend when I was I guess I was in my mid-20s and he owned his own business. But his whole, his whole thing, his whole culture was like about, you know, being an entrepreneur, right? And I always felt like I had that entrepreneurial spirit. But I remember talking to my parents and like, oh no, you never want to own your own business. Your, your uncle and aunt had a restaurant and they worked themselves to death and they never made much money. And I realized when I, you know, I didn't know the word limiting belief at the time, but I was like, That's the belief that had been passed down through my family. And the only way I ever started my own business was because I met someone who had his own business and was doing it, and I saw that was possible.

But, uh, and that's what happens for people. They don't question it because it came from your family or society. Yeah, whatever, you know, or the TV shows you watched when you were a kid. That's what a family looked like. That's what a marriage looked like. And that becomes You know, your pictures also become limiting beliefs, even if they're good pictures. You know, they limit what's possible because not anything is possible, just some things that fit in that picture. So, whether it's with regard to money, I mean, that messes with people a lot, their beliefs about money, you know, their mindset about money. It's not so much the number of dollars, it's their relationship to money, you know? To communication in their relationships, to their children. I mean, people get messed with by all sorts of things. Yeah, you can imagine, it's just everything basically. You know, they get messed with by people's opinions, by their own opinion, by self-doubt, by fear, by money, by time. Time messes with people all the time. They're like, I don't have enough time, I'm overwhelmed. Overwhelm is not a real thing. You have exactly the amount of time you have. There's no enough time. And if you're not scheduling yourself in a way that's related to reality, like, you know, you're double booking yourself and you're, you know, not putting things in your calendar, then you're going to be overwhelmed because you're not dealing with the reality of what there is to do today or tomorrow or, you know, whatever. So I do a whole calendar workshop. It's called Design Your Days because I found it was just insane how much that messed with people. And, you know, it's like $19 or something on my website. It's very, you know, inexpensive. But it's an hour to train somebody how to relate to what there is to do as opposed to get overwhelmed by it or burnt out.

Yeah. So I think that— well, you touched on a couple I think that a lot of people relate to. I think time and money. We have beliefs around that, and I hear people say there's not enough time, but then it's just like you said, I see that they double book, they're always trying to squeeze one more thing in and And I also find people schedule travel time.

They don't schedule in-between time, in-between meetings. They don't schedule showering. They don't schedule eating. They don't— I mean, you know, I schedule everything, including, you know, when I want to be intimate with my husband. I'll put that right on the calendar and I'll invite him to that occasion. I'll be like, in-house session. That's what that's called.

Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny that you mentioned that because for a long time I've I've realized that, or I, I, it took me a long time to realize that things that we want to do that we don't put on the counter get squeezed out. So people will say like, I don't have time to exercise, or I don't have time to meditate, because everything that's, uh, urgent gets scheduled, and things that are, oh, I can meditate tomorrow, or I can, I can work out tomorrow, and then tomorrow, as you were saying earlier, tomorrow never comes.

Yeah, well, tomorrow might come, but someday never comes, right? Like you can schedule something tomorrow.

Like, I can't— well, yeah, right.

Like, meet with Brian tomorrow at 2 o'clock. But I can't schedule meet with Brian someday, right? Like, where am I gonna put that? It's just not a real thing, you know? And I would like to be around if someday is real. I'd like to be around when it comes because a lot of stuff is going to happen on that day. It's going to be quite a day.

Yeah. So we talked a little bit about time. Let's talk about money and limiting beliefs around money. What have you experienced and how do you help people with that?

I work a lot in the realm of money, not only in business, because obviously business has money metrics, you know, depending on what kind of business you're in. But my clients, when we do a plan, we do a year out or 5 years out, but we do definitely a year out. And then we do milestones with regard to revenue or profit margin or whatever it is that they're tracking— clients, new clients, you know, whatever. So we do a backwards plan for the year, and then I manage from that. So every time I meet with them, we're looking at, okay, so where are we? Are we on track? If we're not, what's the source of the breakdown? So if we said we were going to do $10,000 this month and we did $4,000, we need to know what we did or didn't do that resulted in 4 on 10, you know, and most people don't debrief that. Or if we did $12,000, okay, what was the source of that $12,000? That's a breakthrough. Let's see, what were the actions that allowed for— now let's do more of those actions, you know, and stop doing the actions that aren't producing the results. So, we do a lot of debriefing so that people get to the reality about money. But the first thing about people's money mindset, most people don't even know how much money they have. They're literally in a fog about their money. They're like, I don't have enough, or I have enough, or I'll always be able to make more. They have some story about their money story that kind of runs them rather than I have this much, I owe this much, I earn this much, like getting the reality. So, I have them first just do a reality check on all their money. What do they have? In what accounts? What interest rate is it earning in that CD or in that IRA or blah, blah, blah, whatever? Get really clear about what's so. Then get really clear about what you're spending. So you do— like if you were going to go on a new food plan, you'd audit your diet. You audit your money and look at, OK, what am I spending money on? My God, I'm spending $200 a week on lattes? That's insane. You can actually do something about something that you are related to the reality of. You can't do anything about— about things that you're not related to the reality of, just like your weight. If you don't know how much you weigh, how are you going to impact your weight? It's like, "Well, I feel thinner." I mean, that's ridiculous. It's like you've got to know what the reality is. So, I have them do an audit on their money, not an audit like the IRS, but an audit on what they're spending and what they're making. What are all the sources of income, including dividends or interest if they do have stocks, including interest on their savings account or whatever?

They—

because people don't count that stuff. They don't actually deal with what's coming in and what's going out. And then we have to see if there's a gap, because if you're spending more than you're making or that you're generating, you either have to generate more or spend less. I mean, this is not brain science, but in a way it is, because your brain, when it isn't related to reality, comes up with all sorts of disempowering relationships. So as long as I can see a reality of something, I can see a way to impact it in whatever way somebody wants to impact it.

Yeah. So without betraying client confidentiality, can you give us an example of someone you've helped become unmessable with?

Totally. Yeah. I mean, I have a client. I mean, she's, she's not secret. She does testimonials for me and everything, but she went from— I started working with her, she was doing about $300,000 a year in her law practice. That first year she went to $1 million a year. Then in the second year, which we just finished, she's over $2 million and she's on track this year to do $5 million. And She used to work 24/7, like 7 days a week. I mean, it's her firm. And now she stops work at 6 and does not work on the weekends. So, it's like, to me, that's like, I can die happy. I mean, look at— and the difference she's making in the area of family law and supporting people with their custody battles and their divorces and making them less dramatic and less costly. It's a huge impact. So, I mean, that's just one example. I have a doctor. Who has a clinic that she started in Kansas. And when she first started working with me in my mastery program, she was bleeding money and had like 2 clients or something, 2 patients. And then she 17x'd her client base in the year, in less than a year actually, and 8x'd her revenue. And I mean, it just, you know, and she's having fun.

Yeah.

You know, and looking at what else she wants to create. Now she's talking about building a hospital, not just a clinic, but a hospital. I have, uh, clients that were partners. They started a business in the beginning of our master— and they were both one-on-one clients before, but then I moved them into the mastery program because I think when people are in a group of high-performance people, they get more quicker. You know, it like has that group dynamic. And they figured they might break even by the end of the year. Within 3 months, they were profitable, and they've been just killing it ever since. So those are the kinds of like specific measurable results that people produce.

So those are the results. Tell me a little bit about how you get there. It sounds great if I'm gonna triple or double my business. What kind of things are we doing?

Well, in that program specifically, what I focus on is mastering performance, which is actions and inactions, and creation, shifting from reaction to creation, and freedom. So a lot of people, they might have a successful business, but they're a prisoner of their own business, prisoner of your own creation. So that's the a three-pronged context in which I work with people. So, we come up with goals and a plan, and then what gets unearthed is everything that messes with them, whether it's with their relationship to money, like thinking that only a certain amount of money is possible or spending willy-nilly, whatever that means, or whether it's their relationship to delegation or hiring people, like spending money. Like, I had this client who had like this thing that she started, but she was the one who answered the phones. And I was like, you can't answer the phones anymore. You have to hire somebody to answer the phones. I can't trust anybody to answer. I mean, it was like this whole thing. It was not about answering the phones. It was like her breaking the addiction of having to be the one to answer the phone. Finally, when we broke it, their business, you know, went up even more. And, you know, so people have to see, it's like having scaffolding around you so that you don't just free fall. Having a coach and a supportive group is like having scaffolding, so you can take the kind of risks that you wouldn't normally take on your own because your thinking doesn't allow it. But when you're in a group of people that are all sort of taking those same kind of risks and breaking the same kind of addictions, you know, then, you know, gets a little bit at least more doable.

Yeah. We've talked about this a little bit, but I'm going to kind of go over it again. So if people are in a situation, a job situation, where they, they feel stuck, you know, it's like, I've been here for 20 years, this is all I've ever done, it's all I know how to do. How do we, how do we break free of that?

Well, the first thing I do with people, no matter what their situation, you know, but in this situation I would do the same thing, is I would find out what their vision is. Because most people stop having a vision. They're just looking down and in, dealing with what's there, you know, another week, another dollar, another day, whatever. But your vision is where you look up and out, like, what am I really creating for my life? Like, in 5 years from now, what do I want the experience of life to be? So it's more like in the realm of things like joy or self-expression or freedom or adventure. You know, it's spatial. It's not goal-oriented. It's more of a spatial thing. So if what you're creating is, you know, appreciation and adventure, that's what you want the quality of your life to be. Then we start architecting how are we going to fulfill on that in many different vehicles, whether it's at your job or in your family or with playing pickleball or whatever it is that really can light you up and start to express those qualities and create that space for your life. Because when people feel stuck, it's mostly that they just don't have a future that they're living into. They're just living out the past over and over like a better version or more this or maybe a little less this, but it's not really the kind of open, expansive future that was there when they first started their career. You know, that magic that was there. And magic disappears really easily because there's no magic in management. And when you start to build a career, at some point you're managing it and making it survive, which puts you in survival mode. So that stuckness is very common. So I get people unstuck by first unlocking and architecting a vision with them. So that they have another place to look up from versus always looking down and dealing like bullets coming at you.

Yeah. Yeah, that's— that sounds great. So I know you talk about turning complaints into powerful requests. What does that mean?

Yeah, well, you know, I used to be the president of the board of directors for my co-op in New York, and people had complaints all the time and they would just come to me with complaints. I'd be in the elevator. They're complaining about the furniture in the lobby. I mean, it's just everybody complains about something, but people complain only because they're committed to something. It's just the complaint sort of is the first thing they lead with. So they don't lead with like, I'm really committed to the beauty of our building, so I have a request that we have colored flowers in the, in the entryway. They say, those flowers are ugly. You know, they, they give you a complaint. So how you can start to be a really great leader is to listen for what's the commitment behind the complaint. And if you have a complaint, just make a pact. I'm not complaining anymore. I'm only going to make requests. So instead of, you know, you never give me back rubs, to your husband or your wife, I request you give me a 20-minute back rub tonight. You know, it takes it from blah, blah, blah to an action conversation, something that could create a future that is bigger than the one you're living into. If you're complaining, it's like a down and in. It's a descriptive kind of like, you don't do this and you should be better at this and da da da da da. What can somebody do with that? Nothing.

Yeah. Well, as you said that, my first thought was then that's when people get defensive, right? Well, what do you mean I never do this?

Yeah, exactly.

And then you're in that mode. Yeah.

In 1978, I gave you a back rub and, you know, and then you start being right and it's craziness. So you're setting up them reacting to your reaction. And then it's like a dark circle that just goes down, right? But if you're operating from making requests, now people always have the option to say no to a request.

Sure.

You know, like, I'd like to, but I'm really tired. That's like more of like, I'd like to, but— so a yes, but. And I train people what to do with yeses, with nos, with yes, but, because people are weird when it comes to making requests. They're really bad at it. You know, they'll say things like, I really need a raise. That's not even a request. It's like, I request a 10% raise by March 1st. That's a request, but people don't speak that way. They're not straight talkers.

Yeah, well, yeah, that's, that's a really good point. I never really thought of it that way before, but, uh, it, it— so this is a more of an interpersonal thing to communicate better with people, uh, again, take them out of the defensive mode, give them something to do to either say yes or no to, or yes, but Yeah, yeah. So that, that, that actually creates a much more dynamic for possible success as opposed to, uh, you know, you never do this. So that's one I will take with me. I like that a lot. It's something we can start doing today. So I was going to ask you for like, what's one thing people can do today? That's one. Do you have another one?

Sure. I mean, one thing you can do is start scheduling things that you do every day in your actual calendar, or that you want to do every day. So like you said, meditation. If you don't put that in your calendar, the chances of it happening are so much less, you know, or exercise or— and I wouldn't just say exercise. I would say, what are you creating with your exercise? Is it vitality? So creating vitality, treadmill, you know, creating intimacy, date night, creating peace of mind, meditation. So you have not just what you're doing, but the context in which you're doing it. In your calendar. And you can really, you know, do that immediately and start to notice the difference in your relationship to your life, because your life fundamentally lives on your calendar.

Yeah, you know, again, I was telling you, I've been trying to do that, and I've been recommending to my clients for a long time, like, put things you want on your calendar. And I started doing it, but then I realized, um, you know, like, say it's meditation, it's really easy to put it on there, and then if I don't get to it at 10 when I put it on my calendar because I've got this thing to do, then it gets bumped. So I just found a tool— I love AI— so I just found a tool that actually you could put things in your calendar, and if they're not done at that particular moment, it keeps rolling them over until you get them done. So I— that's been really— I've been doing this since like November, and it's great.

And like you said, oh, it makes such a difference.

Yeah, I put everything, like my meditation, my, my morning walk, my water, my plants, you know, anything that I want to do on a regular basis. My social media stuff— I, I was really, really bad about like getting social media done, making a post to Facebook or doing something on Instagram. But now that it's on my calendar and I can say I want to do this 3 days a week, um, it's— I'm, I'm much, much more consistent with that.

Yeah. And then ultimately, you know, your relationship to what's on your calendar has to do with your relationship to your word, which is what all my work is about. Being unmessable with is really having your word be unmessable with.

Yeah.

So when you say something, it happens. And, you know, when we negotiate with our own word, our word is weak. Yeah. Well, you know, I said I'd do 100 sit-ups. 90 is enough, you know, and we start justifying and all that stuff. So the more you can empower your word, and it doesn't really matter what you give your word to, whether it's taking out the garbage or being faithful to your spouse, It's that it's your word that you're honoring, not the thing you gave your word to, because that's too easy to justify. Like, "Eh, I don't have to meditate today. I did it yesterday." Da da da. You know, you can talk yourself out of your word, but if you have it be like the word is the thing, then it doesn't really matter what you're attaching the word to. The more you say X and do X, the more power your word will have, which, then triple my business is simple. And if your word has that kind of power, that's a really interesting point.

And, you know, I think when we think about our word, we think about our word to other people. We don't really think about our word to ourselves, to what we've committed to. And, you know, if you, if you promise someone else that you're going to do something and you don't do it, they're going to let you know.

But it's not, not, not, uh, or covertly they will. Yes, exactly.

But with ourselves, it's, as you said, it's really easy to let ourselves off the hook. Yeah, I said I was going to do that, but again, if you don't write it down and you don't, you don't actually make it a tangible thing, then it's really easy to just, you know, back out of it.

And it still is easy because you do just— if you negotiate with yourself. I mean, that's one of the things I like to kill with people is just like, stop negotiating with your own word. Because every time you say X and do X whether it's taking the garbage out at 7, not 7:01, but, you know, or doing the 100 sit-ups or whatever it is, your word gets stronger. So if you identify as your words— that's how I identify as my word. Who I am is my word. So whatever I say is who I am, and I can be counted on that for that. And that's actually the ancient Aramaic word abracadabra is I create as I speak. That's what abracadabra means. So, you know, when I talk about magic, It's all about word. So if you identify as your bank account, then your bank account's gonna have power in your life. If you identify as your feelings, then how you feel is, "I don't feel like working out," you know, then that's gonna have power. If you identify as your past, then what you did or didn't do is gonna have power. But if you identify as your word, it's the only thing that you have 100% dominion over. Everything else is a crapshoot, you know? You feel how you feel. You don't really have a lot of control over how you feel. Sometimes you're happy, sometimes you're sad, whatever. Sometimes you feel like working out, sometimes you don't. Sometimes you want to be married, sometimes you don't, whatever. But your word is the only thing that you are 100% at source of. So if you, every time you say X, you do X, that gets more and more muscle, more and more muscle, so that you could say intimacy in my marriage and it happens. It's like you could say chair and a chair would fall out of your mouth. That's how much power you're giving your word. So I look at it as not so much like keeping my word to myself. It's building the muscle of my word so that I can create anything.

Wow. Wow. That's powerful. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that.

Absolutely. That's my favorite, uh, conversation is about word. Your word is your wand.

Yeah.

How I put it.

So can you share a, a story of when, uh, you had to apply your own teachings to yourself?

Oh my God, so many. Well, the, the, the singing thing is definitely one of them, but I'll just do like a recent one. Um, I was, uh, you know, wanted to do a podcast. I just launched my podcast like, uh, I don't know, 8 months, 7 months ago or something like that, and we just hit number 32 on the self-development education charts on Apple charts last week, which is kind of exciting, right? But at the time, I had a lot of reasons why it wasn't a good time to do the podcast. I was like, first of all, I don't even know how to do a podcast. So that's one thing. Like, I don't know how to do it. It sounds— I don't know what an RSS feed is. I don't know what all these things— it's going to be expounding all sorts of equipment. And, you know, then it's going to take so much time. And I had all the reasons, the time, the money, the— all the stuff that messes with you. And I heard myself, you know, I heard myself talking and my chest was getting tight. And I was like, okay, hang on a second. I did my little hack to get to nothing. I said, okay, what am I creating? Like, why do I even want to have a podcast? Like, why am I even doing this? You know? And I really looked at the impact I wanted to have, and I wanted to reach a lot of people and give them the tools to be unmessable with. I really want to make that difference. You know, contribution is one of the aspects of my vision. So, I started looking at, okay, so, what actions would I have to take if I were going to do this podcast thing? And I came up with a backwards plan. And this was like in February, it was a year ago. And I said, okay, if I want to launch it in June and I want to have 40 episodes recorded before I launch it, How many would I have to record each week? And so I started scheduling, you know, slots, and then I made a list of 50 people to ask if they wanted to be on it and started filling those. I mean, I just started being in action on the dream. And then on June 6th, we launched it. And, you know, I have episodes recorded through October of this year because I just kept doing that. So I just kept staying in action. And now I'm not in survival about it because I don't have to record an episode this week in order to release next week because I've got such a runway because I was able to do that backwards planning. But it took me getting out of my own way. And, you know, when you don't know how to do something, you know somebody who does, so ask them. And I just started asking people like, how do you do this? And it was so much easier than I made it in my head, you know. I thought it was going to be this whole thing and it was really nothing. It was easy. So yeah. That was an example.

That, that is a great example. And, um, just as you said, setting that goal and then breaking it down into actionable steps and realizing that, yeah, a lot of things people think are so much harder than, than they are. I remember when I started, you know, when I launched my podcast, it was the same thing. It— there's a— seems like there's a lot of, you know, steps and stuff, but then there, there are people that will help you do that.

Exactly. Get somebody to edit And, you know, or there's programs that do it if you don't have, you know, a budget for a team or whatever. But it's— everything is doable if you're in the world of creation. If you're in the world of reasons and considerations, then you see why something isn't possible.

Yeah, that's a really good point. You can either see why it's possible or why it's not possible. And setting up or looking at what the obstacles are, you know, they're realistically like, I need to understand what an RSS feed is, and I'm going to need a microphone and, you know, stuff like that. But these are all, as you said, very doable things.

Yeah, it's like Amazon, click, okay, tomorrow I'll have a mic. I mean, these are not like big complex, you know, business plans, or how are you going to monetize? Don't worry about all that, you know, just start, you know, just put one foot in front of the other, like they used to say in that Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, uh, holiday stop-motion thing. Foot in front of the other, and soon you'll be walking out the door, period.

I, I've seen so many times people, you know, like, uh, Substack is a new thing for me. I've been on Substack for a couple of months now, and I, you know, people like, I want to get on it, but I want to— I need to study it first, you know. I need to, I need to take 6 months to figure out what to publish and how to publish it. And I'm like, there's zero risk, it's free. Just go ahead and set it up and write something, right? Even if nobody reads it, that's okay.

Nobody will read it unless you invite them to it. So I mean, it's just, it's so low risk. It's kind of a joke. It's like when people go, I don't know, I don't, I want to have the right social media. I was like, how many people are following you? Who cares? Just post something. What is it like, 6 people are gonna be upset? Or 200 people are gonna what? They're gonna write something like you suck? No, they're not. They're just gonna, it's gonna be their eyewash of their scroll.

Yeah, but it's— and that's, that's— those are the things that, that stop us. And like I said, I see this so often with, with people. Like, I, I've talked to so many people, I, I do want to have a podcast someday, you know, I, I do. I am going to start writing on, on Substack someday. I'm going to do a newsletter, you know, someday. Um, and then once they get it, they're like, well, I don't know what to post. I'm like, post anything. Just first of all, if you got no followers, nobody's gonna see it.

Exactly. It's just like, what what are you worried about? And even if you do have followers, it's like, what are you afraid of? You're afraid they're going to do what? Say, I don't like this post. Okay. Delete the post. You're in control of the feed. I mean, it's not like, you know, it's just, you're not posting naked photos of yourself. You know, you're just posting stuff. You know, this is not brain science, but people do get scared and they do get stopped. And so it is important to have, you know, an environment of people that are supporting you and encouraging you to take the actions when you can't. I mean, I had a someday dream of moving to France since I was 16. I was like, someday I'm going to live in Paris, someday, blah, blah, blah. And then I was leading one of my courses called the Foundation for Being Unmessable With. It's like a 6-week prerecorded course. This was when I was actually recording it and leading it live. And I was talking about there's no someday, there's no such day, blah, blah, blah. And I get off the Zoom call and I realized, I was like, There's no someday, except I keep saying I'm someday going to move to France. Like, what is that about? And then I turned to my husband. I said, all right, when are we going to do it? I don't care when it is. If it's 5 years from now, it's 5 years, but let's set a date. So we're taking someday out of the thing. And he said, how about in 6 months? I was like, okay, game on. And we set the date and then everything started to fall into place. We went for the weekend, we found an apartment, we applied for visas, we got— I mean, everything. And we were there within 6 months.

Oh wow, wow.

So we live part-time here, you know.

Yeah, that's a really powerful story because as long as it's someday, as you said, it's not going to happen. But when you set the date, it's either, you know, you— then you start making plans and you start taking actions. But you're never going to take action until you have something concrete to take action against.

Yeah, it's that, that quote, uh, I think it's George Bernard Shaw. I won't be able to quote it, but it's something like Until one is committed, there's always hesitancy, a chance to draw back, ineffectiveness. Yeah, until you buy the airline ticket, you're not going to France. You know, it's like, it's a, it's a nice conversation, but until you set the date for your wedding, you're talking about getting married. You're not getting married. You're engaged in the question of marriage until you have a date, and then you're getting married in reality.

Yeah, you know, it's funny, as you're saying, I was thinking about so many friends that we have, and you'll say, you'll talk to them, it's been 6 months since you've talked, or a year or whatever. And I'll say, you know what, we need to get together and have lunch someday.

Mm-hmm.

And that— and I— every time that happens, I'm like, this is not going to happen. We both know it's not going to happen. We just both say it.

It's true. And it's the conspiracy for mediocrity that lives in human beings. And it's having another let's do lunch in your life is not productive because it clogs up the space of creation because you have all these incomplete things. Somebody says, let's do lunch to me, I say, great, when? Get your calendar out, let's pick a date. I don't do let's do lunches, I don't do let's do dinners, I don't do let's, let's— oh, you should be on my podcast. Oh, okay, when? Here's my link, you know, book it now. And I don't care if it's 5 months from now, it's in the calendar.

Yeah, I totally agree with that. And that's something I, that I figured out, I guess, pretty recently. And I'll even call people out on that. I'm like, you know, we always say this and we never do it, so Well, we need to, we need to pick a date now or it's not going to happen.

Exactly. And that's the now part, what you just said, right? So when I say eliminating someday and living life now, even if you're scheduling it now for 2 weeks from now, right, it's happening now.

It's still happening now. Yeah, I love that. Um, well, Jocelyn, um, tell people where they can find out more about you. We've mentioned some of your programs already, maybe run down what you have available and where people can find you.

Absolutely. Well, the best place to find me is my website, which is beunmessablewith.com, and that has everything. So there's a freebie page, there's a how to work with me page, there's, you know, all, all sorts of videos and all sorts of stuff like that. You can follow me on Instagram at Be Unmessable With, and the podcast is called Be Unmessable With, so you can find that on Apple or Spotify or YouTube. So it's all around the Be Unmessable With brand, but the website has access to to everything. And that's where you can get a lot of those free things to get started in this process and have a no-risk way of tasting what this is and seeing if it's something that, that resonates.

Yeah. And I would say, as you're listening to this, listeners, go do that now. Do it today.

I love it. Yes. Um, because after listening—

yeah, I, I, I, I get— I've done this, I've done that. I've listened to something, say, I need to get back to that, you know, that website or whatever, and then and it just slips your mind. It never happens.

So exactly, I do that too. So that's why I always sign up for the mailing list on anything that I actually want to find out about, because I can always get out of the mailing, but at least then I'm getting a weekly dose of whatever that person's—

Yeah, but what I'll do now, I listen to podcasts mostly when I'm walking, so I'll tell Siri, take a note. And so I'll have a note to come back to for that. So and that note will be there until I actually take action on it. So that's good. That's a good— that's another way of kind of like doing it now, getting it, getting it, you know, written down somewhere.

Yeah, I don't have Apple phone, so I don't have Siri, but I, uh, I email myself. That's what I do, or text myself. Yeah, I have a thought like that just so that it's like, okay, it's in existence.

Yeah, exactly. Jocelyn, great, great to see you. I could see you again. I've been on, I've been on your podcast as well. Um, Yeah, have a great rest of your day.

You too. Thanks for having me.

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