How To Discover Boundless Possibilities With Lissa Friedman

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Hey everybody, Brian D Smith back today with another episode of Grief 2 Growth. Today I'm thrilled to introduce to you Lisa Friedman, Lisa holds a PhD in art therapy, an MA, and an EDS in mental health counseling. For her life, she's been deeply interested in the intersection of art, spiritual— spirituality, and psychotherapy, and she believes those are all interconnected. Lisa has been an artist since childhood, and she had experiential spiritual experiences at a young age. In fact, her first spiritual report was the age of 6. I'll let her tell us about that. But later on, she had encounters with light beings who would visit her before bedtime. And her spiritual journey took off at the age of 19 when she began practicing Transcendental Meditation, otherwise known as TM, which eventually led to her various spiritual awakenings. Now, a particularly significant experience occurred a few years ago when she received a message urging her to share her spiritual energy with others. This led her to organize meditation groups where she and the participants experienced energy flows together. The gatherings evolved into sharing wisdom and energy from a state that she calls boundlessness. Lisa believes that while sharing the shift in consciousness helps everyone move closer to the one, to the infinite, or to what she calls the boundless, ultimately leading to a ripple effect of expansion in human consciousness, she guides people through energetic transmissions, assisting them in taking the next steps on their spiritual journeys. She has over 40 years of experience as a psychotherapist. She's trained and been certified in several modalities, including transpersonal hypnotherapy and Ericksonian hypnotherapy. She's also the founder of the Enneagram School of Awakening, and she refers to her approach as transpersonal psychotherapy. And she helps people work through personal limitations while guiding them back to their true nature, which she says transcends the personal. She's authored two books, Boundless, which details a journey to the boundless, and From the Heart of Boundless, which discusses obstacles and issues that may hinder our connection to the boundless. So with that, I want to welcome the great, great Alyssa Friedman.

Hi, I'm glad to be here.

Yeah, I'm really excited to talk to you today, and I have to start off telling a little story. I was, I was just talking with someone just right before I was talking to you. It's 10 o'clock on Monday morning. My first appointment was at 9 o'clock today, and I was just met this person for the first time, and I said, what do you do? And she said, I'm a transpersonal psychotherapist. And I was like, okay. So then I get off the call with her and I start to get prepared for our conversation today, and I looked up your bio again just to refresh myself. I'm like, I must have pulled up the wrong bio because I'm talking to two transpersonal psychotherapists in a row. So I see that as a synchronicity. I thought that was really interesting.

I, I do too. I do too. And I'll say just a couple of words about transpersonal psychotherapy because people like, what is that?

Yes, please.

So I called myself that before it became popular to actually get a degree as a transpersonal psychotherapist. You can do that now, right? But I was sitting with myself thinking, what is it that I do? I help people work through their personal issues and then go beyond that, to beyond the personal, to a spiritual connection. So it's, it's both. So I, you know, it's not like I avoid or ignore personal issues, but, you know, to resolve them so that we can transcend that.

Yeah, I, I think it's fascinating. And I think you're the third person I've talked to who's a transpersonal psychotherapist at this point, but it's, it's not very well known. It's interesting you were doing that, you know, before it became something you can get a degree in.

Yeah, right, right, right.

So tell me about your, you know, you said you had experience, I guess, when you were 6, and you tell me about that experience.

Yeah, so, um, you see, I, I— let me also say that I like to talk about some of these experiences because I believe that most of us have had something like like that, and we just go, "Oh, oh well, I guess I don't know what that was," which I did too. It took me probably 50 years to sit back and go, "What happened there?" And maybe it was important. So, I think we all do that. Anyway, so I'm walking to school, and the school was just like around the corner and down the bend, and my parents could watch me through the upstairs window, so it was really little, but, and I grew up in the Bronx, which was kind of safe back then. It became not so safe, but you know, okay, so I'm walking to school and I look down at my little feet, which I was wearing Buster Brown shoes, and I looked at my feet and I think, I'm here, I'm here, wow. And I look around, it's like It's like I woke up and knew. Now, what could I possibly mean, I am here? Something more than this little person walking to school is walking to school. There is like the presence of beingness was inside me, and I recognized it. And then didn't think about it for many years, but I had— that was my first awakening, quote, awakening kind of experience. Yeah.

And then you had another experience— well, I guess when you were like about, uh, 19, I think it was, when you took up TM. Is that correct?

Yeah. So, um, but, you know, I have to say, I probably— the next, um, kind of awakening events that happened probably were the light beings that would come visit me.

Oh, yes, yes.

The TM thing, you know, just to talk a little bit about TM, was my first way into really searching and meditating and exploring in a way that I knew that that's what I was doing.

Okay, right.

Um, but that— I didn't stay with TM for very long. I probably was with TM for 2 or 3 years, um, and then had other teachers and so forth. But, um, the, the light beings, which I call them that because, um, because I could feel their energetic presence, um, and they had some quality of light about them. So I— so of course I call them light beings. But, um, it started when I was 9 and went on till I was about 16. And why it stopped, I really don't know. Why it started, I don't know either, except that I, I have a little theory around it. Uh, it was the first— when I was 9, we moved into a bigger apartment and I had my own room. And I think there was something about having my own room, nobody else sleeping in there, you know, it was quiet, it was solitary, that it gave this opportunity, allowed this opportunity. And so, um, so I would be going to sleep at night. It was before I went to sleep, I was just sort of lying around, uh, you know, I usually would start off on my back and I'm lying around looking around and I could feel the energy in the room shift a little bit. And as soon as it did that, I would— oh, oh, they're coming. And then I would feel the weight of 4 of them sitting on my bed. I didn't exactly see them, but I could sense the light of them. I could feel the energy of them clearly sitting on my bed. And I would become very alert. And then they would ask me ridiculous questions like, 'What's your address and can you spell it for us?' Oh wow, okay. 'And what's your name?' I mean, they'd ask these, you know, every night. So I knew they knew the address and they knew my name, but I would spell it for them and I would feel their energy and their presence, and I liked it. I wasn't scared. Um, and, um, I, you know, and then when— and then they would lift off the bed and they would leave, and then I would roll over and go to sleep.

Wow, okay.

And it was clear, it was like, oh, okay, now I can roll over and go to sleep. And then in the morning, I wouldn't think anything of it again. They never told anybody. Um, and the next time I— so after, after 16, I stopped having that connection, forgot about it. Didn't think about it and wonder, why aren't I having that? So, you know, then, so that ended at 16. And probably in my 20s, 30s, when I would meet someone that I thought knew things, a psychic or a spiritual teacher, I would say, this happened to me, what do you think it was? And they would give me an answer that I would think I don't think so. And I would go on. I can't even tell you what the answers were, but it was like, no, that doesn't sound right. So, but then I was learning how to do past life regression. I studied with the Michael Newton School Institute, and I'm learning how to do past life regression, which means that people are doing past life regression on me. And there's a process where you, you go into trance and then you go back back through your life, not looking for memories exactly, but you're just going back, and you go to a time in your mother's womb. It's just a way of kind of accessing memory. And so I go to a time in my mother's womb, and I have the conscious thought, "Well, I don't know what that is." But— right? Because the conscious mind can't do those things. But, The one of the first things that happens is I feel the energy of the group, and I call them my group, which is why when I read Frances Key's books, she calls them the team. It's like I have a group. It's like, oh my God, I have a group, she has a team. So, so the group energy is there, and I just started weeping. It was probably the most important part of the, of the regression. I did remember something I saw people that I had no memory of, but that didn't mean anything to me. What was big was that the group was there, and I was reconnected with it. So that was really exciting to me.

Wow. Yeah. I'm curious, you said during the time from you were 9 to 16, so like 7 years, these beings are coming in. Periodically to your room, I guess not every night. Did they ever deliver any messages, or did they just have questions?

No, but so later on I understand. Okay, okay, should I— I'll go, I'll go fast forward and then we can go back.

You can jump around, sure.

Yeah, okay, so, so, okay, they come in during the past life regression and I'm so excited, but I keep forgetting about them. You know, I keep like, I think, well, I'll write in my journal and I'll ask questions, and then I would forget about the journal for months at a time, right? And then I'm walking down the street one day, and these words come in like clear. If you've ever had that where words come in, you know they're not yours and they're coming from somewhere, and the words are, it's time. And like, it gets my attention. I'm like, okay. But I, and then I realized, for what? It's time for what? I don't know what it's time for. So, but I take that in and I think, okay, it's time. It probably has something to do with consciousness and awakening and something like that. But I don't know what, you know. I meditate, I give attention to that. What could it be? So that's when I do decide I'm going to ask the group because maybe this is about that.

Yeah.

Right? You know, like, so I say, what's this about? And that energy that I recognize as their energy comes flooding through me, and I'm like, oh my God, okay, okay, it's time for this to come in. All right, this is fabulous. So, and I'm like in this altered state, and I take walks in this altered state, and I sit in this altered state, and I'm grateful, and I cry, and I journal. I'm so grateful, I'm so grateful. And then I hear very clearly, this is not just for you. Like, oh, well, that makes sense, but it didn't occur to me. And then, you know, it's like, okay, well, I'll gather some people together and we'll meditate together. So I do. I tell a few people, and we— just a few— we just, we sit and we meditate, and the frequency comes in big. And, and I don't say anything about it, but I, you know, I can tell the people are altered. And I— so then I go home and I journal, and they say that you have to tell them about us? Like, um, I don't really want to, you know. I'm, uh, you know, I'm a kind of sort of not really conventional, but it's like I present as a present, uh, as a conventional psychotherapist, but I, I, it's my secret that I'm not conventional, right?

Right.

You know, so I'm like, oh God, okay, so The next time I meet with these few people, I say, "Did you notice the energy changing in the room?" And they say, "Yeah." I say, "Okay, that's good." And I go back and I say, "See, I mentioned the energy." They said, "No, no, no, us." So then I have to go back and say, "Okay, there's a group of light beings that are sending a frequency of energy through me to you, and they've asked that I tell you that." And they go, "Far out, I used to have something like that." So it was like, it normalized it. And then from then on, I was able to say, okay, I feel the energy shifting. And maybe you will, maybe you won't, it's okay, whatever. And I'm just supposed to share this with you. So for the first 3 years of this, there was no words. I'd go home. And I journal and say, so is there a teaching? No, no teaching, just share the energy, share the frequency. That's what's important, to shift the frequency of, of humans, because the earth plane frequency is usually has to do with fear and anger, and this is lighter and it's love and peace and connectedness. So shift that. Okay, I can, I can do that because I'm not doing anything, I'm just opening up and this is happening. So this is good. And then the pandemic happened and the group went away, you know, no, there's no groups. I'm seeing clients only on Zoom. And I moved somewhere that was actually at a retreat center right before the pandemic, not realizing that I was about to go on a long retreat myself because of the pandemic, right? And so I wrote Boundless. Mm-hmm. And, and I wrote boundless, and obviously there were words coming through. Oh, I have to plug this in. It might die.

Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

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Let me just plug this in. Just take a second to plug it in. Okay, I'm a little bit in a different place, but I think it's okay.

We're good.

Yeah, okay, great. Okay, so, um, So, now there are words coming from boundless, and the words are— in that book, I describe very clearly how to move from a separate, contracted, suffering place to an expanded, boundless energy, how you move from one to another. And so, now there are words. When I could meet with people again, there was a lot to say and a lot to share. So, and what that led to is, yeah, so there was, okay, so now there are words, and what that led to was, how am I going to share these words? And the first meeting I had where I was going to really actually let it flow through, I knew that it couldn't come from me. It had to come from that energy, and it had to come clearly from that energy. So I just automatically left my eyes closed, and I said, okay, I'm available, and what would you like to share? And the words would flow through. And there was, you know, things to say. And then I would say, okay, we're open for questions and comments. And I guided people to only share from this moment, not like history or, you know, memories, but right now, and something that would help with their spiritual journey. And they would ask questions, and I would see the questions as energy. And I would see the answers as energy, and I would just wait for them to become words, and I would say the words.

Wow. Okay.

And that's what's happening now.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's, you know, that's up to date. We've about 50 years, but yeah.

Well, you know, it's interesting. I'm so fascinated by the, the light beings when you were a child. Do you think they were just sharing energy with you, maybe?

Yeah, that's what I think they were doing. I think they were sharing and altering my nervous system because I could feel their energy, and it was just a matter of, you know, like, what can we do to keep her just still enough to receive this? Well, we'll ask her silly questions. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, and I would answer them, and, you know, when they were done with me, they would just lift off and float away.

So that feeling you had when you were 6, when you were— you felt like you were in there, how did that— did you feel lonely? Did you feel disoriented? How did you feel?

Um, excited.

Okay.

Really excited. It was like, oh, I'm here.

Okay, okay.

This is fabulous. I'm here, you know. Um, yeah, it was— it's— it was like— it was like I had been walking around a little bit in a daydream. You know, like a foggy, not really noticing things and moving through life. I mean, it was only a few years, but, um, I think most of— most people might spend an entire lifetime doing that. But, you know, I'm— you know, and life's okay. It wasn't bad. It's okay. And I'm just kind of in a dazed— and then it was like, oh, like all my senses were alive and awake. And now I'm actually seeing everything through these eyes, which somehow is connected to something bigger. It was great.

Yeah, yeah, that, that feeling of knowing that you're not your body, I think, is— it could be, uh, most of us, as you said, for most of our lives, we identify, this is me, you know, it's like, this is me. And you, you went beyond that.

That's right. That was the first inkling that that was the truth. Yeah, I mean, that's a profound thing, but it did take me quite a number of years to understand that that came to me at such a young age. But you're right, we're not our bodies and we're not our minds and we're not our emotions. We're something more. What we are is more than that.

Yeah. So the message of of that they're getting to us now? What would you say is the core message?

Um, that we are boundless itself. We're not the thoughts, we're not the emotions, we're not the body, we're not even the sensations. But there is something that is aware of all of that. That awareness is what we are. So we tend to think that when we are aware of our thinking or some experience, that we own that awareness. It's mine, it's my separate awareness, and you have your separate awareness, and everybody has their separate awareness. And it's actually A little bit true in that we are a portal and it is very specific coming into us, but it is from the bigger oneness, awareness, boundless oneness. I use those, all those words interchangeably. So it's like, um, the other day I was sitting with a bunch of people and I heard the birds singing and it was so clear to me that the birds were singing in me, right? And so like, well, what do I mean by that? Are they singing inside my head? No. They're singing inside something that I call my awareness. I'm conscious of the birds singing, but it was so clear that, okay, they're singing in me, and the me is awareness itself, is the boundless. Yeah. And they were such an example of that's what I am, and that's what we all are. We, you know, Yeah, so that's who we are.

It's a really interesting concept. And it's because when I heard your story and you talk about 6, I was about 6 when I felt very lonely. I felt very disoriented, and I felt like I missed that connection to— it's like, why are we so separate? Was the feeling that I had.

Yes. Well, that's a big deal too.

Yeah.

You realize that at 6. Yeah, you know, it's, it's kind of like realizing what's not true but really feeling it. And, you know, like, like I said, a lot of 6-year-olds are just kind of la-di-da.

Yeah, yeah. Like I said, for me it was like, why? I felt like there was something missing that, that could— that as I get to the point that I am now, where I'm, you know, hearing about your talking and I'm listening to Seth materials right now, and that's just mind-blowing. And reading, you know, we, we both love Frankie Key, Francis Key, the teen books.

Yeah.

Okay, this is the truth, you know, that we've forgotten.

Yes, this is the truth that we've forgotten. And, um, so you mentioned the teen books and what they talk about too, which is, you know, when I was reading them, I, I was very aware of my group and the kind of, quote, teachings coming from there. And I knew that while there were light beings, they were also part of the One. Right. Not separate from that. It's not like, you know, there's this, there's the Oneness, and then there's the group. No, it's like that they were getting their truth from the Boundless itself, from the Source. And in the team books, they talk about that too. You know, they'll, they'll give their teaching and then they'll say, yes, and you know, we're connected, we're all one. That's all that's going on here. So, you know, that helped me really resonate with that as well.

Right. Well, it's interesting because I'm getting these different teachings from different places and they're all saying the same thing. And it's the— when I read some of the things and I asked you to send me some questions before, you know, like some things we could talk about, and you talk about like giving up our identity. Oh, yeah, very scary. First of all, people would say, well, first of all, what does that mean? Because I am my identity, how do I give it up? So help me to unpack that some.

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Yeah, that's, that— it's funny, because that's what just occurred to me that we should talk about when you brought that right before you brought it up. So we're, we're on the same page. So one of the, the most important things that I had to learn was giving up identity. And that I had— so I did TM, I did some other guru kind of meditation things, and then I found a teacher that I had for about 10 years. And what I got from her mostly— I got a lot from her, but what, what really stuck was the identity thing. Really, it never occurred to me, you know, like she would say things like, you think that you're the kind of person that blah blah blah blah blah. And I'm like, one, I didn't even know I thought that, but yes, that's probably true, and I am that kind of person. So what's the problem, right? Right. Yeah, that— okay, that's true. And it was like, no, you're not. That's not what you are. So, so it made me kind of dig in there through like What— and so many layers and levels of it, you know, it's like, okay, I'm the kind of person that may feel shame and sadness a lot. Okay, but now there are stories that go with it. What are the stories? Now, they— that's part of my identity, that I went through this and that and feel these emotions because I went through all that. Now, is that true or not? Yes, it's true, but is it who I am or is it just things that I went through? And okay, so there's that kind of psychological level. Then it's, um, I'm the kind of, I'm the kind of person, my identity is maybe my age or my gender, or, and which is of course a big issue these days, um, and I think it's great to try to figure out your gender. I do. I think it's a step along the way in individuation, but at some point we don't have a gender, right?

Right.

You know, um, so, so it could be all those things. It could be that I identify with the kind of mind I have, with the kind of body I have, with the kind of emotions I have. And I had peeled away many, many layers of this. And then about 11 or 12 years ago, my marriage fell apart. And I had lived in a big home on a lake with beautiful, beautiful land and country and had a big community. And had, you know, I taught art and meditation, blah, blah, blah, great. And, you know, a lot of friends. And I kind of knew that if this marriage ends, I think I'm blowing apart my life. But I don't know what— I don't know how that's going to be. But I wound up having to leave my home, and I wound up moving to California briefly, but leaving everything that I had and going to California. And also knowing that, oh my God, this is really going to challenge my identity. My identity is just as a therapist, having a practice, having community, you know, and people that knew me. It's a— you know, I grew— I was living in a what I call a small town, Gainesville, Florida. Um, you know, people that live in— that live in the rural areas think of it as the big city, but I'm from New York. It's not a big city. So, um, You know, so, you know, the identity that I had there, and I knew, okay, this is going to be probably bring up some stuff for me. And I got to California, that whole identity was gone. Psychotherapist, connected in community, group of friends, private practice, teaching art, doing art, selling, you know, whatever I was gone. I was devastated in a way that I thought I would never have to be.

Right, right.

I was, and I was terrified. And that's an emotion that I didn't do much of. I did a lot of shame and sadness and some anger, but terror, not so much. So I was terrified. And, um And I could feel like, okay, now I really have to know myself without any of that, without any of it. And then realizing that also, in order to really live the truth that I am this boundless one, I can't even hold on to beliefs. I can't believe in it. It can't be a belief. It has to be something that I know so thoroughly in my body and beyond my body that, you know, that is not like, oh, I believe that that's true. It has to be known. So yeah, letting go of all of our identity, because anything that sets us apart sets us apart.

That's, uh, that's really a concept I think that people will have to play around with and really, you know, and sometimes we can experience those things like you said when we go through the loss of a job or a divorce, or in my case, the, you know, the death of a child or a spouse or something. Because we start to believe that we are the things that are around us, and when those things are suddenly ripped away, yeah, it takes us to a different level where, you know, I can imagine you as you were telling us, you, you, you land there and you're like, but I'm still me. Right. You're still—

what am I?

Right.

What am I without this? I don't know, you know. Um, and I'll just share just with you, we don't have to go into it at all, but I lost a child as well, so I know that.

Okay. Yeah, yeah. Well, that, that I've heard a lot of people say, am I still a mother? You know, especially if it's an only child, it's like, yes, that's that's a part of who you are, but that's not, that's not who we are.

That's not, that's not who we are, right? And so there's some things that happen to us that, um, contribute, do contribute to what we're bringing here, but it's not who we are. And it, and if it's really a powerful thing, it's very hard to let it go. It was very hard for me to let go of that as my identity.

Well, like you said, it's terrifying. Yeah, it's terrifying because we think that that's all that we have. And I know that people, when we first try to introduce these concepts to people, they're like this, you know, it does, it seems nonsensical. But as I, again, as I've come along and I read about, you know, Frankie's books, the team books, and yours, what you're talking about, and I'm listening to Seth Matur right now, or I listen to books more than I read because I walk when I do it.

Yeah.

But, um, it's like mind-blowing because we are not And it would be if you believe in reincarnation, which we've been different lives. We are— it's actually, it's all happening at the same time. So we are all these things.

Yes, that's right. There is always— because there's no time and there's no space, right? You know, there is— it's really one, one thing, you know, that however we look at it, all happening now. And, um, yeah, it can be terrifying, but it's When you— once you've crossed the road and you look back, you realize, oh God, there's nothing to be afraid of. You're letting go of something small for something infinite.

Right.

These little things— this happened to me and this is how I know myself and this is what I do and people know me this way. I'm letting go of those little things for the eternal, for the infinite itself.

Well, you know, when you, when you talk again, you, when you talked about your experience and I was thinking about my own, I was interviewing a guy and we were talking about the reasons we come to Earth, right? So people, people say, well, why would I, why would I choose this? Why am I here? Am I here to learn? Am I here to have experiences? Am I here to grow if I'm already perfect? You know, blah, blah, blah. And he said something I'd never heard anybody say before. He said part of the reason we come here is to feel that feeling of abandonment, to feel that feeling of being small, to have that experience of being alone and to be powerless. But then it's ironically, we ended up clinging to it. And yes, this is who I am, right?

That's the problem, right? That's— yes, we— whatever that is. So, and that might be— I, you know, I don't want to Anyway, I'll say what I'm going to say. That might be his reason, you know. He came to— oh, it was for me to realize this. For some of us, it's something else. Loss, grief.

Yeah, I don't think there's any one answer, but that was— because we talked about, again, is it growth? Is it, is it, is it experience? Is it, is it to learn? You know, and that was one I hadn't thought about, but then I realized that's something that's pretty much universal. At some point I think we feel that, like, I mean, at least it was for me. It resonated with me.

It's true. It is, it is universal. Yeah, I, I agree with that. Um, and yeah, is it that— I can— we will have to go through that. And I, I think we're here to know that we're the boundless and help everybody else.

Yeah. And we, I mean, we grow from that. That's how we grow the empathy and the little things that we do. And, and again, once we start to peel away these layers and I was listening to Seth this morning. He was talking about, I was the spice merchant in Denmark, and I was this, and I was that, and I've been men, I've been women, I've been rich, I've been— and then that really allows us to drop the boundaries that we have more here. Yeah, I look at you, I'm like, I, I've been like you at some point, you know. We've been— we're a lot more similar than we are different, right?

It's so true, right? Yeah, but, you know, and And there's a first phase of probably everybody's life where they're trying to figure out how they are different. There's a section in the second book that I wrote on gender, and when I was going to write about it, I Googled Wikipedia, like, how many genders are there now? And it was something like 102 different genders.

Oh, I heard 47.

Okay. I'm like, wow, okay, well, if we're going to go that far, then it's just all the little nuances that happen within boundless, right? I mean, I feel like once you stop doing the binary thing, then it just proliferates into infinity. So it's maybe the way of getting there, but it's— when we're younger, we want to know how I am unique. And I think it's an important part of our growth to have that, oh, I'm unique because I think like this, or, you know. So we're looking for that, and it has to be— there has— it has to be really subtly nuanced because most of what we are, we share with many, many, many, many, many, many other people. So to find uniqueness is kind of difficult, but we're looking for that until we begin to realize, well, maybe it's more important to see how we are similar.

Yeah.

And this similarity goes beyond— because here's where people get stuck too, you know, they're like, oh, okay, you, um, you interview people, I do something like that, so we're the same.

Right, right.

You know, or you're reading Seth, I read Seth, we're the same. Oh, you did that and I did that, so we're the same. Um, you know, and I've heard, and it's comforting to someone to do that. I've worked with people who will say, oh yeah, you know, I did art when I was younger, so we're the same. It's like, no, we're actually the same because we're boundless. We are consciousness itself. We are the divine. That, that's— we share that with every— everything in the universe. Um, and so that's a little different than having qualities or attributes or history. It's not on the individual level. It's way beyond that, right?

Well, what I'm gathering from what you're saying, and we can relate it to the, to the team books, is that We are not individuals. And they say that, you know, Frankie says that over and over again in the books. You're not, you're not an individual. You're— we are team. I just see it now. It's like, where it's like nested the way our reality is. So I'm within a team and that team is within another team. And I think that she went to the level of leagues. And, you know, and then Seth talks about the different personalities, like there's Seth and there's Seth 2, and Seth is actually part of Seth 2. So And he talks about all of his personalities that he's lived. So we are multifaceted, multi-dimensional beings living multiple lives at the same time, and it's, it's just hard to even wrap your head around, right?

It is, it is hard. We can't wrap our head around it. I mean, I think that's what we, um, that's part of the letting go, because the little human mind it's too limited.

Yes, yes, you're exactly right. You have to get to a point where you just have to say, okay, I can't understand this from where that I am. Let's enjoy the experience that we're having. But also, again, we're not as different as we think that we are. We don't, you know, and I, and I, you talked earlier about identifying with certain things, and I was just thinking about this, this morning, you know, as I'm, as I'm getting older and just had a part, uh, my wife and I My wife's from Kentucky, so we had a Kentucky Derby party like yesterday. My parents used to like to have parties. I thought, yeah, one day I'll look back at these pictures. I used to— we used to be a lot younger. Now we're older. And, you know, I identified as being that 35-year-old guy, but now I'm a 61-year-old, 62-year-old guy. Which one am I, right? You know, because it's— they're ostensibly different people. They look different, they think different. But I identify them all as being me.

Yeah, right. And then there's, there's a, there are me's way beyond that too, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we might, you know, some people start identifying as their age. I think probably a lot of people do, right?

I think, I think it was a mistake that a lot, most of us make at some point in my life. My, my poor daughter, she would say things to me like, oh Dad, you're so old, or whatever. I'm And I remember sitting at the kitchen table with my grandmother and saying that to her. And she said, "I'm the same person I was when I was 16." And she's probably at that time, she's probably about the age I am now, but I thought she was old as the hills.

Oh, ancient.

Yes.

Yeah, right.

And so we do. When we're young, we think we're always going to be young. When we're old, we think of ourselves as old people. And, you know, the truth is we're neither one. We're not the young person or the old person. We're aging.

We're not even, we're not even a person. Yeah, you're not even a person. We're not even just a light being. Yeah, I like, I like the nested thing a lot.

It's, um, it's kind of where I am at this point, you know, uh, as I'm evolving through this. And as I said, sometimes I just have to say, okay, I, I just really can't understand this, that there's, there's no time and I'm, I'm multidimensional and Seth talks about, like, well, that personality that lived as that spice merchant in Denmark, that personality still exists and it's still going on. It's still part of me, but it does its own thing. And I'm like, wow, that's really crazy.

Yeah, right, right, right. Yeah.

So I like the fact that what you're doing is helping people to open up to this, to start to, to start to understand it. Because I think it's really important in our world that we move beyond this small thing that we think that we are. I mean, that's— I think that's the cause of like 99% of the problems that we have in the world.

I totally agree with you. I think it is because of— yeah, we could say all, but 99 is good enough.

Yeah, I'm just gonna let myself a little bit of wiggle room. But yeah, the fact that it's like, okay, well, I, I can't if I get this, then, or you get this, then I can't have it, and vice versa. And not being able to understand where people, other people are coming from, you know. Well, right, the thing, the gender thing. Well, clearly there are only two genders, and, and I'm a male and you're a female. Why can't you figure that out?

Right, right. So simple.

Yeah.

But I think it's the beginning of, of entering into boundless. Like, if we, if we keep proliferating, okay, there's 3, no, there's 4, no, there's 5, no, there's 10, there's 12, there's 30, there's 40. It's like, you know, it's like, okay, it begins to be like, all right, it may be, it's infinite, and maybe it doesn't matter, right?

Right. That's where it gets—

it actually doesn't matter because, um, it's so hard to figure out.

Well, you know, Just a couple of days ago, we're having another crisis at the border because we've got— people are coming because of the COVID restrictions or something. There's going to be a lot of people coming. And again, this is just the way I think. Why do we have countries anyway? Well, let's get rid of the boundaries. Why do we have them?

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I know. I know. Yeah, and so the little unique thing that is happening, and I don't think it's just happening through me, what we might call me, I think it's happening in lots of different places around the world, or the— yeah, around the world, is that there's this energetic shift that happens when I allow this connection to happen, helps people have an experience in that moment of Oh, oh, oh, I— oh, that's, you know, and they don't have the words for it, but it, it helps actually get that connection.

Yeah, I was, uh, partying Saturday night, was having conversation with the neighbor next door, and I live in a very conservative area, and, and we've only talked at that level a couple of times, and she said, well, I'm a middle-of-the-road kind of person, and because she doesn't want to be, you know, take either side. Yeah, we were talking about certain things. We've talked about a couple issues, and, um, we're talking about choice, you know, women having the right to choose. I believe women should have the right to choose, is what she said. I said, okay, well, she said, does that make me a liberal?

Uh-oh.

No, it doesn't make you anything.

It just means that women—

you think women should have a right to choose. And we talked about another issue, and she goes, well, but I'm supposed to be, you know, on that side. I said, No, there are, there are no sides. You know, if you feel that women should have the right to choose, you shouldn't be defined by the fact that, you know, your father was a Republican and that's the position that you have to take. And that's what these, these boxes that we put ourselves in, we get all tied up in knots.

And that's the identity thing, right? Now we're going to identify politically as something, and then we find ourselves thinking outside that box. Oh my God, we're challenging our identity. Yeah, there is— forget about it, you know.

Yeah, well, it's politics, it's, it's religion, you know. And then, and the thing is, so if I say something that disagrees with your religion, then you feel personally attacked, right?

You—

because you've identified with it, because that's what I am, right?

Yeah, it all has to go. And you know what I also like to share with people, because there have been moments for everyone where they believed in nothing. They were no political— they weren't on a political side. They weren't on any side of all, you know, and, and in the moments you don't realize it. So for some, um, in the Asheville area, people love to go hiking. They're hiking up in the mountains, and it's beautiful, right? And so there's usually a moment where Somebody's hiking and they reach the top of something, they look out at the vista and they go, ah, and they're one right then.

Right, right, right.

And there isn't a belief that I'm one. There isn't a belief in how beautiful it is here. There isn't a belief that I'm a person. I'm this kind. It's all gone. And in that moment Nothing defines them. Now the mind comes back in and says, oh, oh, this is a good spot, I'll have to come back here, I like this, I should take a picture of it, and then I can go, I can look at it at home and do that again. And it never does, it never works again, because in that moment there was no effort, there was no trying, there was no belief. It just opened like that. And so, um, one of the things that's important around knowing really the truth that I am boundless is relaxing deeply. You know, how do we let go of everything? You can't, but you can relax deeply and you can accept whatever is showing up. You can be in a mode of I'm not going to fight with my thoughts. I'm not going to have any concept that I should have no thoughts in my mind. Yeah, no, I'm going to just let them be there. I'm going to accept that, uh, right now I feel this, but okay, I'm going to let that go and just feel that there's no right and wrong. It's all included. Whatever is going on is included. And as I sit and Relax even more deeply, allowing and including. I'm stepping out of something. I'm stepping out of my separate self and I'm relaxing deeply in deep acceptance. And then, yeah, I was just—

what you just said reminded me because I wanted to come back to Transcendental Meditation because you said you only did that for a few years and then you did something else. I'm working with the guy who was part of the early TM movement, Kelvin Chen. You might know his name, but Kelvin teaches a style of meditation called Turning Within. Now he's not part of the TM movement either. So what do you still do meditation?

And I do, I do. Yeah, I do what I'm talking about, and, and it's more like abiding. I love that word. Yeah, yeah. You know, so it is, uh, yeah, I sit with my eyes closed and, ah, just let go. Just let go. And, and, you know, and there's effortless noticing of what's going on. Maybe there's some thoughts, maybe there's feelings, sensations. But if there's— so I'll give you a little example of, of stepping out of things. So let's say you sit to meditate, or I sit to meditate, and there's, uh, something nagging at me. Whatever, I should cancel that meeting, it's bothering me, I should cancel that meeting, you know, it's too much, I should cancel the meeting. And it's like, okay, I accept that this is going on and I can't make the decision right now, but I can feel and see the thoughts around it and the tightness around it and that's like a little ball or bundle of something that is, you know, contracted. Sure. And it's not a big issue, right? So it's, you know, but it could, it could be, but it's not. But it's enough to get my— it's distracting me. So I, I kind of like put it all together and become the observer of it. Okay, I can see that. Yeah, I see that dilemma. And I step back into being the observer. But then I become aware that something else knows about this observer as well. And I lean back into that. That is what I call boundless, but it's in that moment, it has no label. It's just this something else there that knows about the observer and the dilemma. Boundless. And as I just sort of let go, relax deeply, and that separate self that has a dilemma just begins to dissolve into boundless itself. And then that could be my meditation. If there is no issue, then I just sit as, wow, you know. Relaxing, relaxing, and being.

So I think, yeah, another thing I want to ask you about, because I'm also, I'm fascinated about the Enneagram. So how does the Enneagram, how does that play?

Oh, that's a good question. So I, I did, I worked with and studied the Enneagram for many years, and I, you know, I, I just recently, uh, retired from teaching the Enneagram. You know, at some point you have to retire from something.

I understand.

Yeah. So, um, uh, and I had set up the school, and my daughter teaches, and she teaches the essence of the Enneagram. And so, and there's 3 really good teachers in the school, so it's like, wow, you got it, you've all got it, I can just let you have it and back out. But while it was a really important piece for me, so there was, um, When I began teaching it, I have to back up. So one of the things that I did for a long time was, um, I'm hesitant to mention names. So I studied with a group of people who call it— was part of a mystery school, and one of the things that we studied was the Enneagram.

Okay.

And when I left the mystery school I had signed papers to never teach anything that I learned within there. So I'm being a psychotherapist and working with people and, and, and doing my own work, right? And realizing that we're all reaching a wall, something that we're willing to let go of this and process that and release this. And then if I say, and now let go of this. Um, everybody says whatever the this is, it's different, you know, that the person will say anything but that. I'll do anything, but I can't do that. Um, and so I'm thinking this is the pattern. This is that Enneatype pattern that will not— that really feels like if, if you— if I let go of it, I will die. And for me, I have the 2 pattern. And so I'm looking at myself while I'm looking at everybody else, and I'm realizing that if I don't do nice things for people, they won't love me, and I will be alone, and I will die. That my value is that I do nice things for people, and I have to look at that. And then I'm looking at my clients and saying, okay, I'm recognizing this pattern and that one and that pattern and that one and that pattern and that one. So I started relearning the Enneagram from several of the teachers so that I wouldn't breach my contract and learn, you know, like there's nothing wrong with learning from somebody else and then taking that knowledge and sharing it. So I've been studying and learning from a lot of other people, and then, and then I began teaching people. And what I realized that— and it's so, it's connected to the light beings as well— but when I learn something, I learn it and feel it energetically in my body. So I was beginning to recognize that each Enneatype has its own energetic component, and, and it has its own core knot that it it's like doesn't want to let go of. It feels like it's going to die, you know, and it relates to identity. Um, and so, um, so for me, recognizing that two pattern in me after having several spiritual teachers and meditating for maybe 20, 30 years, I was still acting from this pattern. And it was still running the show. So it's like, that's— it's a powerful tool.

Yeah, yeah.

And particularly if people use it for awakening or liberation. I don't like the use of the Enneagram to put people in boxes and judge them, or to put yourself in a box and judge yourself, or to become a better separate person that has this type.

Yeah, you know, it's really interesting. As you were saying, as we were having that, you were talking about that, I've taken something called Positive Intelligence, uh, and it's something that I teach now. And it's a lot of these things are similar. Um, it says that we are a sage, that's who we are at our core. But we also all have this thing we call the judge, and then we have like these accomplice saboteurs, and they're like 8 of them. Yeah, so there's hypervigilant, there's a perfectionist, there's the pleaser, there's these different saboteurs. And the guy that teaches that, I love him because he always says, don't say I am a hypervigilant. Don't say I am a pleaser. You have this characteristic, but that's not who you are.

Exactly.

That's my fear with some of these type things, because people will say I am a 2.

Exactly. And I'll say I have the 2 pattern.

Yeah.

Um, and, and you're in your method that it may have the same thing too, is that, um, having the two pattern can be contracted or can be liberated.

Right, right, right. And yeah, it takes something that's actually a good thing. We want to be pleasant to people, we want to be nice to people, and it overuses it to the point where it becomes detrimental. So we have to learn how to, how to use that wisely. So that it's not something we're beating ourselves up with, but it becomes— it's a tool. It's good to be good to people. It's good to be liked.

As long as it's not your identity. There was— I don't even remember who this person was, but he was— I think he was being interviewed by someone. And this is so vague, but what stuck with me was he said, if I wake up in the morning and I don't feel good about myself, I buy a bunch of donuts and I go out and give them to all the homeless people, and then I feel good about myself.

Interesting.

And I'm thinking, that's a nice thing. I mean, I would rather not donuts, but, um, but it's, it's, it sounded to me like someone with the 2 pattern needing to feed the identity of being a 2 so you would, so you would feel better. Rather than do something that just made them feel better.

And that's where, when I work with clients, it's like, it's not what you do, it's the motivation you do it from. You can do the exact same act. And exactly, you know, I was telling my clients that, you know, eating healthy is, is a way of self-care. We should all try to eat healthy, but also one day you might just want to have a donut.

Exactly.

And that could also be an act of self-care.

Absolutely. Completely agree with you. Absolutely. And it's not though, if you feel guilty and shame yourself about eating the donut, but if you totally love that donut and enjoy it completely, then it could be an act of self-love.

Yeah. So this comes back around to that thing about understanding who we are, understanding that we are all these boundless thing. And we're having these, this human experience, what we're going through, these things. And, and in this particular incarnation, because I was talking with somebody today, and they were saying that I need to let go of my intellect, I rely too much on my intellect, and you should really, you know, let go of more like that. And I was listening to Christian Sundberg, who's had these multiple life experiences. And he talked about like, he said, in this life, I decided I was going to have a good intellect. So that's why, that's my thing. That's one of my things for this life. And I'm like, Okay, maybe in another life I wasn't like this, but this is who I am in this life, and that's okay.

Yeah, yeah. And know that you're boundless with a good— with a good intellect.

Yeah, yeah. So we all— we all—

I mean, you see the difference, isn't that? And I have experienced— I mean, I've been— I've spoken to, been around people who have the identity of intellect, and I don't feel that in you.

Um, yeah, it's, I don't know, it's, it's kind of my way of processing things, I guess, you know, because, um, I'm, I, I, when I was a little kid and I started having all these issues about like death and hell and all the things I went through and feeling alone, I turned to books. I'm like, I'm just going to read everything I can possibly find. And I still do that, you know, every day I'm reading something else.

Yeah, I see what you're saying.

Yeah, I'm not, I'm not as much of a feeler. I'm trying to be more of that, you know. And it's funny, I was working with Kelvin, who I said he, he came up in the TM movement, he was really high up in it, and he teaches something called Turning Within now. So I've been meditating for 30 years probably at this point, and I'm like, Kelvin, am I doing it right? You know, my ego's— there is no doing it right. Yeah, there's no doing it wrong. The only thing wrong is if you're trying too hard.

So that's right, I like him. Yeah, I like him.

Yeah, that's, that's— and so when you were talking, I'm like, this is what I'm, I'm doing. It's like, okay, just, just let it go. Just, just let it go. And even if you're having a quote bad meditation, the fact that you meditated means that's what it was supposed to be.

That's right. That's right. Yeah.

Well, tell people about your books, a little bit more about your books.

Okay.

What they can find in them and where they can get them.

Yeah, okay, so two books. The first one is Boundless, and in Boundless I describe from many, many different angles how to let go into boundless, how to find it, how to recognize it, how to let go into it, and some stories about how it happened for me, like the 6-year-old story and light beings and the Enneagram, and you know, so it's A lot of that is in that book. And it's on Amazon, it's on Audible, and paperback, and Kindle. And then From the Heart of Boundless is also how you get to boundless. But it occurred to me that there are many different things that come up in, in us that block it, right, and how to deal with that. So it's a little bit of a practice, more, a little bit more practical in a And it is also audible and on Kindle and paperback, so they can get it there. And also let me say that I have a Monday night Zoom group. Actually, so I have a Monday night Zoom group on the— I'm trying to think which Mondays they are because they're 2 Mondays a month, but they can look it up on my website. So 2 Mondays a month is only Zoom, and 2 Mondays a month is Zoom and in person.

Okay, cool.

So if you're in the Asheville area, you could actually come to a meeting. Um, and in, in those meetings, um, I play the crystal singing bowls a little bit, we meditate a little bit, and then I let go and go into that state where I'm receiving from another dimension, or from boundless itself, we could say. Um, and people ask questions and there are answers. And so that's the process on the Zoom and the in-person Monday night thing. Um, I also do retreats in this area.

Oh wow, okay.

Yeah, so there's one in the fall in Flat Rock, North Carolina. Beautiful Beautiful place.

Nice, sounds great. So, uh, listen, how can people reach you?

So, um, lissalfriedman.com is the website, right? L-I-S-S-A-L-F-R-I-E-D-M-A-N.com is the website. And there you can email me through that website. That's probably the best way.

Yeah, well, it's been a pleasure talking today. Thanks so much.

Yeah, I had fun. You're good.

Have a great rest of your day.

You too.

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