Life, Death, and Personal Transformation with Nick Shaw EP 357

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Close your eyes and imagine. What are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain? The things that bring us grief are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Hey there, welcome back to another episode of Grief to Growth. I'm Brian D Smith, in case you don't know who I am, and we explore things, life, death, the meaning of life, all those little, little things are things we talk about on this program. Today, we have the privilege of interviewing a remarkable individual whose life and story and his insights are not just going to be inspiring, I think they're also transformative. His name is Nick Shaw. He's an accomplished executive coach. He's an author and a speaker. And he's known for his deep understanding of personal transformation, self-discovery, and authentic leadership. In our discussion today, we're gonna talk about Nick's introspective journey highlighted in his book, My Teacher, My Son: Lessons on Life, Loss, and Love. And this book isn't just a memoir, it's a beacon of hope and guidance and invites us all to look inward with honesty and with self-compassion. His personal experience of losing his son William at a, a young age has propelled Nick to help others navigate their complex emotions and experiences and encouraging us to live a life with intention and meaning. So throughout the episode, the plan is to dive into questions that touch upon how Nick has embraced adversity with an open mind, his advice to parents who have gone through similar tragedies, and the way— the ways he's implemented his learnings in his life and his work. We'll also talk about his journey into authorship and how that's aided in his healing and his learning. So whether you're seeking to understand the depths of grief, look for ways to transform your leadership style, or really just in need of a story that resonates with the spirit of human resilience, I think this episode's for you. So join us as we explore these profound lessons with, with Nick Schomp. And after the episode, go over to grieftogrowth.com/community. And we can talk about it there and answer any questions you might have. So with that, I want to welcome to Grief to Growth Nick Schomp.

Hey Brian, thank you for having me on your show. And, and, uh, yeah, I'm really looking forward to our conversation and, and sharing my story with, with your audience.

I'm glad to have you here. Um, you and I share something in common right off the bat, the, the loss of a, of a child. And, um, first I like to ask people before we talk about the tragedy, tell me about William. What, what was, what's William like?

Yeah, so first off, thank you for that question. I think it's such an important question to ask someone who's lost anybody, right? You know, we all— all we really want to do is share our loved one that we lost with the world. And so William was this super— so he was my oldest son, so firstborn. And with that, he was— he was a very good boy, right? He liked to— he liked to please in some ways. You know, he definitely followed the rules and things of that nature. He's a very compassionate little boy. I think that was one of the most remarkable things about him. He could just sort of sense what was going on with someone and sort of knew how to be with them. And sometimes that just meant giving people space. It's like I remember countless times where I felt that from him. He loved to love. Like, he just loved his family. He loved his parents, his little brother. You know, he would always try to give us this big bear hug with his bony little body, but you just felt that love kind of coursing through you. He was an active child, loved to engage in different sports. He's not so much a team sports guy. He did what I would call more alternative sports like skateboarding, skiing, parkour, which, you know, free running, which was kind of— that was his favorite sport. Yeah. And he loved music too. That was another thing that he and I shared. And yeah, he was just a beautiful, caring, loving little boy. One of the common things people said about him after he died was that he was an old soul. So that's kind of, that's kind of how I think of him.

That seems to be common with children that leave early, that compassion, that zest for life, that feeling of an old soul. I hear that a lot. I talked to a lot of parents who have had children transition. And that seems to be a common theme.

Yeah, yeah, it's, I get it in one respect. I mean, and everyone has a different perspective on life, death, and what might be, might come after. And there's a big part of me as I've reflected and gone over everything that happened to William and to our family, that he was here for a purpose. And it was just, you know, he served whatever that purpose was. And then he, it was his time to go to whatever's next.

And if you don't mind me asking, how did he pass?

We were on a family vacation in Big Sky, Montana. It was February 19th, 2019. And so we were a family who skied. I grew up skiing and it was a passion sport of mine. And then William really liked it. He was, he was a good skier. He was on the ski team. And we were, you know, started the day like any other day. And he and I went to the top of the mountain to ski some of the more challenging runs while my wife and younger son were on the lower part of the mountain because at the time my younger son was sick, so he couldn't quite, you know, go to the top of the mountain. And, you know, as we were making our way to the bottom to meet up with my wife and younger son Kai, we were on what's called a catwalk, which is effectively— it's like a— it's a road that kind of winds itself— winds its way down the mountain, just an easier way to the bottom. And I was in front of him because I'm heavier than him, so my weight carried me a little bit ahead of him, probably 10, 15 feet. And I really didn't think much of it. These things, you barely have to turn. You kind of just— it's a nice mellow ride to the bottom. And, um, as I made a curve in the road, because it kind of winds down the mountain, a skier came whizzing past me and said, hey, was that your kid who went into the woods? Because off the side of these catwalks are slopes of, you know, deep, deep powder snow amidst trees. And so, you know, it kind of surprised me. I quickly stopped and took my skis off and started walking back up the hill. And when I tried to look for Wayne, he was nowhere to be found. So I don't even know what happened to him. Eventually, a search ensued and he was eventually found. He somehow— something caused him to ski off the side of the catwalk and he hit a tree and he died on impact.

Oh man, I'm so sorry. That's— I, I, you know, it's hard to imagine. All of our losses are tragic and terrible, but that, that sudden loss, you know, I, I know what that's like. So how did, how did you and your family respond after, after the loss of William?

It was, you know, it— as you know, it, it turns your life upside down. I mean, you know, this is not in anybody's playbook for how their life is going to unfold. And, you know, we were just thrown into a state of chaos, uncertainty, you know, our lives are just turned upside down. I mean, literally everything that we thought how life was going to unfold, it was, it was all done, that was gone. And so, you know, as we made our way back to Massachusetts from Big Sky, you know, each of us, my wife, my younger son, Kai, we started our process, or each of our unique and individual process of grieving. Um, you know, I think one of the things that, that, that saved us was, you know, my wife and I had this very clear resolve that we were not going to let this destroy the rest of our family. Um, you know, because you hear the horror stories, right, when something like this happens to— can put a lot of strain on, on a marriage, and, and then that may fall apart, and then that further impacts any surviving children. So we were just— we had this what I call look-in-the-eye moment of we're not gonna let this destroy us. And we, we got a lot of help, you know, we joined grief groups, we got a family therapist, we did whatever we needed to do. I was fortunate enough to be able to take a 6-month leave of absence because I needed to just process and make sense of it all, right? So we did whatever we needed to just to, to try to give each other the space we needed, but also move through the process of grief together.

Yeah. So you, you leaned into it. You're— sounds like you were very intentional about, about healing.

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it's a great way to— it's a great way to frame it for— yes. I mean, I was, I was— yeah, I mean, I guess by nature, I'm an intentional guy, you know, and in part, my training as a coach probably helped me with that. But for me, I was very intentional with how I, how I processed everything. I made it almost a routine every day to really spend time and sit with it and meditate on it and, you know, pose the question, what can I learn from this?

So you were a coach before William passed?

I was, yeah.

Okay. And so how did your coaching change, do you think, after that?

You know, I think for one thing I, that I learned in all this was about, you know, vulnerability. And so I think as one of the things I now bring more to my coaching is my own vulnerability as a way of connecting with my clients. But both, both the process of grieving and the process of, I guess, which is part of grieving, was writing my book. Really caused me to open up in ways I never had before. And now I bring that more to my coaching. And I believe that, you know, when you are vulnerable, it's an invitation for others to be vulnerable with you. And in particular, when you're talking about coaching individuals, if you want people to grow and transform, it is going to require some vulnerability on their part. So if you can invite that in with your own way of being, then that that can only be beneficial to the client. Yeah.

And how— you said your son Kai was 6 at the time. Um, how has he dealt with it, you know, losing his big brother?

He's, he's been remarkably, um, resilient, uh, which has been really an inspiration for me. And I, and I, and I talk about this in the book. Um, and he was 6, right? And so, you know, and I always said if, if this is going to happen to a child, 6 is a, is, is a, is probably one of the better ages it can happen because he, he still has memories of William and he still talks about William today and he loves looking at pictures of William. But at that age, he, he's not old enough to really get how big, you know, the gravity of the situation. So at that age, he was, you know, he Again, I guess the best way, he was just very resilient and he just plotted on with his life, you know, which is interesting to observe as a parent because you're struggling to do that. And even as he's grown up, you know, because he's now, he's 11, he'll be 12 in May, he continues to just process it in his own way, you know, and the interesting thing for him is he'll continue to process this through every sort of developmental or stage of development, right? Because he'll— it'll continue to make sense in different ways for him as he grows up. So it's all— it's an unfolding process for him. Mm-hmm.

So, um, how did you— I, again, devastation, I could only imagine. How did you go from that to looking at this through a more positive lens? Stay with us. We'll be right back. You know, one of the hardest things about grief? Most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up. So you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there.

When, when there was a very specific moment where I kind of made a little bit of a— that inflection, because as you know, in the early days of grief and in the aftermath of this kind of loss, you're devastated. You go to some very dark places. I know I did. And for me, I think a big part of what happened to me when William died, I was cracked open. Like, so everything about me, who I was as a person, was just exposed. It was just out there in front of me for me to either confront or sort of do something with or not. You know, I kind of liken it to the soupy mess of rawness that, you know, it was there. And I initially, I didn't want anything to do with that. I didn't want to confront who I was as a person. I didn't want to I didn't want to deal with any of it. But what happens when you, when you try to push that stuff away, when it's basically begging to be attended to, um, it just comes back at you very, in a very forceful and, and a negative way. And, and so, and the more I would fight, the darker and darker place I would go. And there was one day specifically where I, you know, I, I was in a very, very dark place and I lost all hope and I was considering some pretty dark options, uh, to be honest with you. But as I was just as I was going to that place, kind of in the back of my mind, from my subconscious or whatever, you know, there was this sort of something was something distracting me, there was something starting to emerge. A light, a notion started to kind of be present. And so I started focusing on that. And as I started to focus more on that, I kind of came up with a mantra. Which is, what would Willie want? Oh, what would Willie want for me, for our family? Um, he certainly wouldn't want me to do something stupid and, and harm myself and create more suffering for not only for myself but for my wife and, uh, my younger son Kai. And, and so in that moment, I, I realized, you know, how I, how I behave, how I show up, what my attitudes are with everything that happened will either honor or dishonor William. It will honor or dishonor this event that happened to William and to our family. And so I, I just, in that moment, I was like, I— it was clear what I had to do. I was not going to do something that would dishonor who he was or his legacy. And, and that, that was the sort of shift for me that said, okay, we got, we gotta, we gotta do this in a different way.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's really important, you know, what, what would Willie want? Because, um, you know, I— there's again, especially with parents, when we, when we lose a child, I find it very common there's this feeling of guilt. There's, I, what could I have done differently to prevent this? Um, the survivor's guilt, you know, it's not fair that I'm here and they're not. And that can cause people to say, okay, I need to stay in this very dark place because I deserve it, I deserve this punishment. So did you go through any of that?

Yes. Uh, the short answer is yes, because I was with him. You know, it was me and him skiing down to the bottom of the mountains. I was with him. So I had tremendous guilt. I mean, I was with him, you know, I, I should have prevented it, right? Um, and there's a couple of things that, that helped me with that guilt. Um, I think the, the, the first thing that, that really was quite an amazing thing that happened was— so I, I was with William, and then when a search ensued, eventually they found him and they brought him to this little ski patrol clinic at the bottom of the mountain. So I was, I was brought there and was waiting there for them to bring him in, and they were going to try to treat him. And so I was there alone, and my wife was still looking for him. She thought maybe he somehow skied back to the place we were staying, so she wasn't there yet. And I found out, the doctor came out and shared the news with me. And so there was probably— time is murky, but call it 10, 15 minutes between I heard the news and my wife is, you know, because she was en route, would arrive there. And so when we first saw each other, I didn't want to tell her over the phone what, you know, what the outcome was. And so I told her when she came into the clinic. And as you would expect, she broke down, which is obviously a totally normal reaction. But as she stood up and sort of composed herself, she looked me in the eye and she said, "It's not your fault." And I can't tell you how much of a relief that was for me because I was just tearing myself apart. Um, and just, that was just a momentary relief to know, okay, at least I know she She believes that, and that gives me a little bit of reprieve. Not that it didn't— my guilt didn't end there, but it was an open— it was an open door.

Right, right.

I think the other thing that consumed me was we didn't know how he died. So there was a thought in my mind, well, you know, if I had found him, would I have been able to save him?

Right.

And, you know, you hear these stories of people doing superhuman things to save their kids. I went into the woods to try to find him, but I was chest deep in snow and I couldn't move. So that was, that was really causing a lot of questions for me as well. And so, but when we, when we eventually found, you know, we got the coroner's report and found out he died on impact, that again, to at least I realized, okay, you know, there's nothing I could have done differently. And, you know, Brian, I've revisited that day thousands of times.

Yeah.

And You know, I can honestly say, had that day— would that day happen again, there's nothing I would do differently. You know, we weren't— he didn't die on this crazy challenging ski run. He died on a very simple, simple run. Um, we skied on those kinds of runs many, many times. Um, you know, we made a wrong turn. We weren't even supposed to be on that slope. Um, so there's a lot of little things that happened. Mm-hmm., you know, we've all heard of the butterfly effect that caused that outcome to happen. Um, so I don't believe there's anything I could have done differently that day or would have done differently should that day occur again. It just, things conspired to make that thing, make that outcome happen. And, you know, I kind of, I have a line in my book where I kind of got to a place where this was just meant to be, you know, which is not, which is crazy to hear myself say in some respects, but it is what I believe.

Um, yeah, yeah, I, I appreciate you sharing that, and I, I hesitate to take you through that again, but I think it's really important for people that are listening because, again, parents, I think, almost universally feel some sense of guilt. In your case, you were there, and, but other parents feel guilty because they weren't there. They might feel guilty because their child died of a drug overdose and I should have been able to stop it more, or their child took their own life and I should have known it was coming. It's almost universal that parents find a way to blame themselves. And I think it helps when we hear other people share their guilt to realize how silly our guilt is. Because I— with my daughter, you know, she had rheumatoid arthritis, I would give her these injections. Injection a couple days before. So I thought, well, did I do something wrong, you know, when I gave her the injection? Or she had a, she had a minor heart condition, we'd taken her to a cardiologist. Should I have taken her to a different cardiologist? Should I have, you know, questioned him? You know, so we all go through it. As I said, we all, you know, and I talked to a mother, her daughter was killed in a drunk driving accident. Her daughter was an adult. She was, she didn't even live with her. And I'll never forget, she said, I did 7 things wrong that day. And I said, 7. And she named them. She named the 7 things she did wrong that day. And I said, you probably did those same 7 things every day, just like with you in that run. I mean, we don't know what's going to happen. And you talk about the Butterfly Effect. I think that's— it's— that movie to me is so instructional in this idea, like, if I had done something different, it would have turned out different.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, um, It's, it's, uh, it's the game of what if, right? What if I'd done this? Or what if that? Or, you know, I think what happens, what we, what we, why we do that, or at least this has sort of been my insight in processing everything, is it because if we can figure out how we might have done things differently, it gives us a, a bit of a false sense of control. Okay, well, the next time this happens, I'll be good. Well, it doesn't matter because there's not going to be a next time. Uh, and, and the reality is that control is an illusion. I mean, you know, we, we— I did everything that day to try to, you know, to protect my son. You know, he was wearing a ski helmet, we were on easy slope. It was, you know, and, and things happen that are, that are gonna always gonna be beyond our control. And I think unfortunately we, you know, that human nature, um, has a yearning for control that is, that is, um, less of a real thing than we realize.

Yeah, well, and you're right. And it puts us in a catch-22 situation because we do want that sense of control because we think that way we can control our future, our future. But then it also gives us the sense of guilt because we said we were in control and we, and we allowed this to happen.

Right, exactly.

So it doesn't really solve anything, but we have to go through that phase, I think.

Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's a part of that. It's part of the grief process. And, and hopefully people are able to come through, because I know for many people they're not. I mean, I've— yeah, many people aren't able to get through it, and the guilt follows them around for the rest of their lives, which is not a, not a great way to live.

Yeah. So you said you mentioned you went to grief counseling. Was there anything you learned in grief counseling that helped? But because you also mentioned this insight you had, it sounds like it almost came from within.

I, I would say a lot of the— I mean, yes, I learned some I think the grief counselor, what she did, which was great, was she helped all of us learn how to express our emotions, you know, as a family with each other. And this is particularly helpful for me and for my son, because at 6, and then, you know, and she turned 7, you know, how do you, how do you process this emotion? How do you express yourself in that way?

Right?

I think that perspective, that was tremendously, tremendously helpful.

And so this— but the, the insight where you, you said, you said to yourself, okay, what would Willie do?

Mhm.

Where do you think that came from?

I think it came from him, you know. Um, there's no other way to say it, but I think it came from him, you know. Um, his energy, his spirit his love for me, for our family, it came from that, you know. Um, yeah, I don't think there's any other way to say it, to be honest with you. You know, I, you know, I, I believe he's still out there in, in the universe, you know, uh, in whatever beyond exists. And he was just wanting for me, um, you know, what he wanted for all of us, right? Which is to continue to endure and to live our lives and not, and not let this thing destroy us.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, that's my belief, too. So I think that, you know, beyond what would Willie want, I would say what does Willie want, because I do believe that our children are still with us, and they're still involved in our lives. And you mentioned earlier that you think maybe this was destined. I I think it was. And it's crazy for me to say that because I never believed that before Shayna passed. I didn't believe, I didn't believe in destination or soul planning or any of that type of stuff. But for me, it's the only thing that makes sense at this point in my life that, you know, this was, this was destined to happen. Because, you know, what does happen, what, what happened is, you know, we can go through all the what-ifs, and we never know what the what-ifs are, but we do know what we have. We know where we are. And that's the one thing that we do know.

Yes. Yeah. And I think it's— I think the process of grief, whether you go to a place of spirituality or afterlife, or whatever it looks like for each individual person, because I do believe grief is very unique. But it is about getting to a place of acceptance, like this thing happened. And you cannot, you know, you have to get to a place where it happened. Now, now what do I, how do I, what do I make of it? What choice do I have to, to engage with the world given that this thing happened to me? So yeah, I think acceptance to me is the, the hopeful destination for anyone who's, who's, who goes through something like this.

Yeah, well, I think, I think what you said, you know, I think all these other things we go through, the guilt and the anger and lots of those are ways of kind of, I think, avoiding Just saying that this happened doesn't have to— doesn't mean we have to like it.

No, no, no, no, not at all. I mean, it's, uh, no, yeah, exactly. It, it doesn't— we absolutely don't have to like it. But I think, yeah, people think accept— they— I think it's a, it's a good point you're making. People think, well, acceptance means, yeah, liking it or being okay with it. You know, I'm not okay that my son died, um, but I, I accept it.

Yeah, I think that's, that's a very important distinction, you know, because, um, and there's also— did you go through like, okay, he's never going to fill in the blank, these things are never going to happen, and then the, you know, survivor's guilt that comes with that?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, I think you long for all the moments you were hoping to have but can no longer have.

Yeah.

So seeing him grow up to become a man, right? I mean, that would have been— I was really looking forward to seeing— I mean, I think that's something that all parents look forward to, seeing how their kids grow up and become adults, right? Just doing different things that we like to do together, skiing more together. I mean, that day before the accident when we went to the top of the mountain, he was skiing like I'd never seen him ski before. And as someone who grew up skiing and for whom skiing is a passion, I was bursting with pride to see my son just crushing it on the mountain, you know. It was amazing, you know. And here we were doing a thing that we both loved and we loved doing together. It was magical. I wanted more of those. But I at least got that one. Yeah. Yeah, you long for what could have been. I think that will always be some somewhat present. And I get to see a little bit of what could have been in with his brothers, you know, with Kai. And another part of the story is we decided to have another child and were fortunate enough to be able to have another child. And so our youngest son Bodhi was born a year and a half after William died. So I get to see it now with, with Bodhi.

So yeah, well, I think, again, I want to let people know when we're talking about acceptance and stuff, we're not saying again, we don't have to like it. And, you know, I still have those moments with— I think about my daughter because she was 15. So what would have happened? What would high school graduation look like? And, you know, she wanted to be a veterinarian, you know, would she have done that? You know, so we do, we do have those thoughts. When you think of Willie today, What image comes to your mind?

Yeah, it's a, it's, it's a, it's a great question. And, and I'm really— reason I'm, I'm kind of pausing here is it's, it's a thought I recently had. I, I still see him as my 9-year-old son. Um, so this past December 20th is his birthday. He would have turned 14. And I don't know why this, this year was different, because, you know, at 14 for a boy, you know, you're, you're kind of now you're starting to become a man, right? You're taller, maybe your voice is getting deeper, right? So yeah, that for the first time, I was like, well, what would he look like at 14? But I just still picture him as, you know, who he was when he was 9.

Yeah, I think that's a hard thing when, when we— someone passes as a child, because there's, there's this thing in the, in the community. A lot of times people say forever fill in the blank, forever 9, forever 17, forever 15. Um, again, I, for me personally, I don't see that anymore because I, I don't believe that their life ended. They're not forever that age. They still— I think we, we, when we cross over, we still grow and evolve. That's what I've understood. So, uh, yeah, I do picture Shayna at 15 a lot of times, but also it's like, okay, she would be, you know, middle, middle-aged, but she'd be in her mid-20s at this point, you know. Yeah, I also picture her, you know, that way.

Yeah, I think it's, I mean, we're so used to experiencing people in their physical form, right? And so it's natural for us to go there. And obviously, it's harder to imagine, or to even conceptualize what they're, what they are today. Because yeah, because it's beyond the realm of our experience, at least at this stage.

Right.

But I, I still try to engage with him. And, but it's not, it's not in a, it's not in a physical form anymore.

Right. Yeah, the relationship is definitely different. But there, but the thing is, I would, I want people to understand there's still, there's still the relationship.

Yes. I think a big part of grieving or the grieving process is, is you— it is about getting to a place where you have a different relationship with the person you lost. Yeah, you can't, you can't— the relationship you had, which is very physical and, you know, three-dimensional, whatever you want to call it, it's no longer here. But it doesn't mean you can't have a different relationship with them. And I think part of the grieving process is trying to figure that out and figure out what does that relationship look like for you.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So what does it look like for you with, with Willie now? You, you said, uh, you still, you said you, I think you said you still try to connect with him. And what, in what way does that manifest?

I'll often, so I, I meditate, and oftentimes, um, not, not every session of meditation, but there'll be times where I will just pose a question to him. Um, I, I kind of view him as, um, my teacher, you know, which is, which is, you know, the title of the book, My Teacher, My Son, you know, it's an expression that came to me sort of in the cup in the call to 2 or 3 weeks after William died, reflecting on who he was and his experience, or my experience of him and the impact he'd had on me. And I realized he'd been teaching me since the day he was born. And I believe he, you know, he taught me in birth and life and in death, and now continues to teach me in his new, in his new form. So I view him very much as a teacher, a guide, you know, to help me navigate this life as best I can.

Yeah. So what, what made you decide to put your experience into a book?

As you know, you go through a life-changing experience like losing a child, you, you, you see life and, and differently. It automatically allows you to see life and form different perspectives about what it means to live a purposeful and meaningful life. And, you know, when William died, for me, I need to make meaning out of it. For me, meaning made— meant I need to learn from it. How can I live my life differently? Because you lose a child and you're, you know, mortality stares you in the face.

Yeah, absolutely.

We're not here forever. And so how do we, how can we make this, this life we have as, again, meaningful and purposeful as possible? So I did a lot of reflecting and learned things and, and I thought, you know, I want to share my learnings with anybody because I, you know, hopefully, you know, hopefully no one has to go through what I had to go through, but they can at least benefit from the learnings. And so that was the inspiration. And in my book, I, you know, certainly it can help people who are going through a similar experience in grief, but, you know, people go through all, all different types of challenges in life. And I think the lessons are applicable not just to grief, but to any challenge somebody faces in life. So I just want to put it out there and share it because I thought it could be helpful.

Yeah, I think it's, I think it's great that you did put it out there and share it. And I did. But I also find a lot of times people find it very cathartic, I think, to write, to put their thoughts down, whether they actually even publish them or not. You know, there's something about going through the process.

Absolutely. You know, for me, you know, I talked a little earlier about this notion of being cracked open and sort of with that, having all my fears and insecurities and limiting beliefs and false narrative, all the crap, all my baggage come back to me. And the process of writing caused me to explore, examine, and confront some of those things and try to live differently. And I even say at the end of my book, I now have what I, at least for me, are a set of guiding principles for how I aspire to live my life. And I say aspire because I'm not there yet. But, you know, I want— that's my aspiration. I want to continue to do the work to live in that way, because I believe it can— it will allow me to live, yeah, my life in a better way.

Yeah. Well, as, as a coach, you know, you're trained in all these things, right? Fears and limiting beliefs and all this. And we walk people through it, and we face some of our own. Um, were there any things about yourself that surprised you after Willie's passing that you was like, I didn't know this was one of my things?

No, actually, you know, which is unfortunate, right? Because, and maybe the surprising thing is, if I knew this all along, why haven't I done anything about it? Yeah. So, so no, I mean, a lot of the stuff that came up, I knew it was now just a time to just really say, okay, is it— do you still want to carry this stuff around with you? Do you still live this narrative? So I think that was a surprising thing. And it was a bit of like, you know, okay, are you going to do this thing or not? Right? Because life is not, it's not forever. And you can continue living the way you have and living according to whatever story you have about who you are. But again, back to what would Willie want? Would he want that for me? No, he would not want that for me. So that was, I think, one of the I think that to me was sort of a big aha. It's like, it's time. It's time to let go of that stuff. A little bit of a— I'll share another story about William, which I think is important and was also quite, quite inspiring for me. When William was just shy of his 8th birthday, my wife takes the boys to a Unitarian church, and they have great programming for kids. And William grappled with anxiety. He was in therapy. He just, you know, he He wasn't at ease with himself. But he'd done the work. He'd gone through therapy and was getting— you could see him sort of loosening up and letting go of that. Late, late— I guess it was late 2017, right before his 8th birthday, they did an exercise where they asked the kids to declare a mantra for themselves. And in bright red marker on a note card, he wrote, be yourself.

Oh, wow.

Yeah. So there's the old soul, right? Like, the kid not even 8 says, I'm gonna be myself, be yourself, right? We actually have it framed. And he goes on to not just talk, you know, not just to declare, but actually live it. Because in the last year of life, he kind of came into his own, found his sense of style, what he liked, what he didn't like, and he was just, he was himself. And here I look at myself and my, you know, at the time I was 44 when William died. And think about, well, how have I been myself throughout my life? I mean, sure, I have in some respects, but I've let a lot of things get in the way of being myself. And so, you know, he was my model. Like, you know, he made that declaration and he did it. So now I got to do the same thing.

Yeah.

And that's, that's a big part of another reason for writing the book. I think a lot of people have struggled with that. And, you know, I just want, I want to help people not struggle with that.

So Yeah, well, I think it's a really, really good point that we just hit on there because, you know, I asked you, did you have any surprises about the things you were carrying? And you're like, no, because you were aware of them. Yeah, you're still carrying them, right? So maybe what it was, what you learned maybe was to live these things that you were aware of.

I think that's right. Yeah, it's, um, you don't have to accept it. Um, and you have a choice. We all have a choice. We just have to realize that we have a choice to either accept them or say, no, I'm going to choose a different path. I'm not going to let my story be written for me by my history. I'm going to let it be written by, you know, my heart and soul and who I am as a person. So I think, yeah, that was the aha moment, I think, for me in processing everything and even, even writing the book. You know, the first iterations of it were, you know, it was a good account of the story, but, you know, through the editing process, I realized every round of editing, I was opening myself up more and giving more of myself to the book, being myself more in the context of the book. And that, you know, that was the first time I'd ever done that. So a side of me that I'd buried a long time ago was allowed to come out in the book.

Yeah. And we talked a little bit about your coaching and how it, how it changed your coaching. Um, do you— did you have clients before that you still work with now that they notice a change in your, in your, in your coaching?

Um, it's a good question. Um, I don't— no one's ever commented on it. Um, and I, I do have a handful of clients who are, are still with me. Um, so, but no one's ever said, oh my God, you're a different coach. Yeah. But, um, I just feel more at ease. I think, I think when I'm engaging someone, I give myself more permission to go to places which, where perhaps I wouldn't have gone, uh, previously.

Yeah, I, I think people— I think one of the things about coaches is people want— they want you to be real.

You—

the word vulnerable you used earlier, I think people want to know that you can relate to their, their struggles. And I know a lot of times it's— my daughter is a mental health counselor and they teach them, you know, leave yourself outside. This is not about you. You can't tell personal stories. You can't talk about what's going on with you. But I noticed my clients, they crave that. They want to know, what did, what did you go through? How did you feel when, when this happened to you? Because they want to, they want to know that all those feelings they're having are acceptable.

Yeah, I think that's, I think that's, that's exactly right. I mean, it's a relationship, which means, you know, each person has to bring themselves to the relationship for it to, to, to work. And I get in certain mental health settings, there's probably a reason not to bring yourself to the table. But I think coaching— I've only found it to be helpful when you do that. Yeah.

Yeah. So where do you— so you're 5 years out after Willie's passing. And so how are you seeing your life evolving at this point?

I think it's, as I said before, it's really trying to put into, to, to practice, um, you know, the lessons that I, that I, that I learned. Um, and it's, it's, it's, you know, it's work. It's not, it's not, it's not a snap of a finger just because you learn a lesson, you know. It's the application or the implementation of that lesson that's the hard part, right? Because we're, we're We're combating habits and old ways of thinking. And so I think it's, for me, it's brought an intentionality to actively trying to do the work and practice things and reflect on how it's going. And I believe we're all works in progress. And I think this life we have is about developing ourselves, um, as human beings and, and getting, getting out from under our, our very noisy brains and, and, and, uh, and things of that nature, um, our egos, things, things like that. It's, it's a journey, uh, and I'm just on that journey, and I realize that, and some days are harder than others, but it's, it's part of what I'm here to do.

Yeah. And so When it comes to grief, and I think you mentioned this earlier, you know, sometimes people ask me like, okay, when is this going to be over? You know, when can I, when can I move on from this? When am I getting back to the person I was before? You know, all those types of questions. So I don't know if you get those questions or not, or how would you respond to that?

So you will never be the same person you were before. First off, You know, I, I kind of look at— and maybe you have had a similar experience, but I kind of have had two lives now. I've had life—

absolutely—

before, you know, before everything happened, so life up until the time William died. Now I have a completely new life. It's, it's a, it's a, it's kind of how I— my life has been bifurcated.

Uh, yes, absolutely.

I'm a different person. I will forever be changed by that that event that day. And it's weird because I can't see my life differently.

I can't—

like, I can't— this is my life. This is what's happened. This is— and I've just accepted that. So you're not going to be the same person because something of this magnitude will change you forever. That said, it doesn't mean you have to walk around, you know, with a black cloud and rain over your head for the rest of your days. And I think that getting to that point of acceptance hopefully will allow you to, to move forward.

Yeah, well, that's, that's a point that's, I think, again, we need to emphasize because when people ask me that when they're early in grief, what they, what they, what they mean is like, am I going to be like this for the rest of my life? Am I going to be miserable and in pain every day and not wanting to be here and still carrying the guilt? And I know, unfortunately, people who are like that 10, 15 years after their child has passed. And what I tell them is, no, it doesn't have to be like that. You won't, you won't go back to who you were, but you, you can go forward. You don't have to stay where you are.

Yes, that's a great way to put it. You don't have to— I mean, that is a— that initial, those initial days and weeks and months of grief are kind of— it's, it's, it, they have to happen. It's just part of how you process it. And it's just a way to— it's a way for somebody to try to process and make sense of everything. And to your point, it doesn't have to be that way forever. Now, it can be if you let it run wild. You know, I'll share a story. We, my wife and I, were looking for different grief groups, and we found one in our town next door to ours. And that night, there was only two other people and us. It was— and it was a grief group for for people who'd lost children. And the original moderator wasn't there because he was sick. So one of the attendees was the moderator, and he was an older gentleman, probably in his, I don't know, call it mid-60s or something. And he'd lost his daughter like 20, 25 years ago. And he said something that just, just the fear of God in us, which was, he said, I can honestly say there's never been a day in my life since my daughter died where I've been able to be happy. And I, my wife and I looked at each other and we're like, I mean, this is like, you know, maybe a month after William died, we're like, no way, like, that can't be like that. That is not how we're going to do this thing. So it was hard to hear. But it was also, we had a, we had a model for what we didn't want, how we didn't want to come through this. So you have a choice, it's, and it's, and there's a time to make that choice. And it's not in those early days of grief. Yes, I think one of the things that's important, and that I think I learned, but probably the hard way is where you are is where you are in grief. And particularly those early days, like you're gonna be a mess, you're gonna be— it's just part of it. Don't judge it, let it be. And then as time unfolds, you, you will hopefully move forward in a more positive way.

Yeah, you know, I had almost the exact same experience. It was probably— it was only months after Shane had passed. And we went to a meeting at a church and there were probably 10 people there, maybe. And I will never forget this woman. Her daughter passed like 10 years before, and she went to visit her grave like, I don't know, almost every day. She was just as miserable, it seemed to me, as she was the day her daughter died. And up until that point, I resolved that I was going to be miserable for the rest of my life. I was like, that's what it's going to be, because I'm going to honor Shayna by being miserable. I love her so much that I'm just going to be miserable. And people just have to accept it. And but when I looked at that woman, I was like, no, if I'm going to stay here, I can't live that way for the rest of my life because it's not fair to me and it's not fair to the people around me. And my daughter wouldn't want that. So that was, that was my wake-up call. And so it's, it's funny because there's an old saying, you can either be a, um, a great example or a horrible warning. And this one was like a horrible warning.

Yeah, yeah. I mean as tough as it was for both of us to see that, I mean, thank God we saw it, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I'm grateful for her. I'm grateful because it woke me up. And here it is, you know, 9 years later, I'm still like, okay, you don't want to go there.

Yeah.

And I tell my clients, it is a choice.

Yeah, it absolutely is a choice. And I think the— and I can relate to this notion of, yep, I'm okay being this miserable because at least for me, and I suspect it was the same way for you, I associated not forgetting William as just always being sad about losing him. And so for me, I had this sort of contract of if I stopped being sad, then I will forget William, and I don't want to lose him for a second time.

Right.

And I think that's where this, you know, where it's, you got to get to form the new relationship, right? So that you don't have to— the only way you can relate to them is not by being in the depths of grief.

Yeah, I remember because like I said, Shayna was 15. And I was like, you know, I've known people that seem like they've moved on, you know, I hate that phrase moved on, you know. And I'm like, and I remember what someone said to me about moving on. I'm like, I don't want to move on. I, that's not even what I want. That's not in the realm of possibility. I like the phrase move forward, because I move forward with her. And it takes a while to get there. Because I thought, I don't want to forget, like the way her voice was, I don't want to forget this. I don't want to forget that. And, you know, the first few— first few days when I didn't cry, you know, in the shower, I was like, okay, what's going on here? You know, it's like, this isn't right. I should be crying every day. I should be miserable all the time. But that's— that's not what we need. We don't have to do that. And it's not part of the design either.

Yeah, I— yeah, it's— it's— and I think that's something that everyone has to sort of figure out as they go through their process, right? Yeah. But, but, you know, look, I think, I think, unfortunately, grief in the movies or whatever, it's portrayed as this forever, you're sobbing to no end. And so we have this sort of picture in our mind for how we should be when we're grieving. Even the literature on grief, it's like it paints it as this very, like, linear process, right?

Right.

It doesn't— it's a huge disservice because everybody's gonna do it differently. And you don't have to necessarily be sobbing every day if that's not who you are, right? So I think I went through— I'm sure you did too— of just self-judgment, self-criticism. What's wrong with me? Why aren't I this? Why aren't I that? Grief. And yeah, I just— you're just— you're just making the process harder than it needs to be. Yeah.

Well, we talked about acceptance, acceptance of the situation, but also acceptance of ourselves and acceptance of the process. Again, I talk to people And, you know, almost universally they're judging themselves, uh, whether it's been 3 months or 2 years or 5 years, you know, I'll hear them say, I'm not where I'm not where I'm supposed to be. And I'm like, you're where you're right where you're supposed to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're actually—

yeah, where are you supposed to be, right? Yeah, that's—

yeah, so, so yeah, I think that's great that, you know, with, with the book and, and with your your speech, you're giving people basically permission to be who they are, you know, and to understand these feelings are natural. Um, you talked about going to a dark place. Again, there's another thing I find is almost universal. People— it's— I was talking to a parent just the other day, and I hear this a lot. It's like, I wasn't thinking about, you know, really committing suicide. I wasn't really contemplating it, but I would think about it, you know. It's like the thought would come to my mind, and wouldn't it be And I'm like, and we're scared to say that a lot of times. It's like, yeah, I think, I think it's almost universal. I think a lot of parents go through that where it's like we have that thought and then we realize, no, I'm not going to do this to my family. I'm not going to— it's just— but the thought crosses our mind and then people think, okay, well, I must be going crazy because I've never thought this before.

Yeah, yeah, no, it's— I think it's— it comes from a place of, you know, loss of hope. And there's also I know for me, part of it was yearning to be with William.

Yeah, there is that feeling like, yeah, your kid, you know, you want to be with your kid. You've always been with your kid. You plan to be with them for the rest of your life. And you're just like, you know, it's— you're torn, right? Because you also have a— you have same thing as me. You have another child here and you have your wife here. So it's like, I can't be in both places.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a, it's an interesting topic because, because, and you don't hear a lot about it. Because I think just the having suicidal thoughts, or it's such a taboo thing, right? And there's an immediate association of you're going crazy, or you need to be on watch or whatever, whatever, whatever the stories are about it. But it is a real thought. It's, I think it is a part of As you say, it's a common experience for a lot of parents who lose a child. And it doesn't, doesn't mean you might, you're going to do it. But it's, yeah, it's just an interesting— it's not something that's ever really talked about that much in the grief space.

Yeah. Oh, I think it's a very natural thought. If you just think of, again, where as a parent, your job is to protect your child, your child's, you know, a literal child, right? So you're like, I have to be there, I have to be there to protect them. I've always been there to protect them.

Yeah.

So I think it's a very natural thought. It doesn't mean we should act on it. And again, most people don't.

Yeah.

But, you know, they're— you're judged for even having the thought, you know, no, don't, don't think like that. So I like to let people know, hey, it's— I went through it. But I think a lot of people— I know a lot of people do.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I talk about it directly in my book. I mean, I share the whole everything. I mean, it's an open— it's an open book, literally, like of what happened and what I experienced.

So yeah, well, so remind people of the title of the book and where they can get it and where people can reach you.

Yeah. So the book is called My Teacher, My Son: Lessons on Life, Loss, and Love. You can really buy it anywhere books are sold. It's on Amazon. You can get any of the main— the big bookstores. If you're adverse to— if you're adverse to big box and want to shop local, you can certainly order it in your local bookstore. You know, just, just give them the title and they, you know, the book, it's in the book distribution network. So get a local bookstore. If you want to learn more about me, I have a website called meetnickshaw.com. I have blogs that I write, that I share, based on different experiences I've had, different thoughts. I, any podcast I'm on, I will put on my site. So yeah, if you want to learn more about me or reach out, you can, you can go to that site.

Awesome. Oh, great. Nick, it was great to meet you today. Thanks for being here. Thanks for being so vulnerable and sharing your story. I know that helps a lot of people. We don't get a lot of fathers doing this. So I'm always grateful when I, when I see a male across from me, because I think again, men kind of need that permission to say, you know, it's okay to share this, it's okay to have these feelings. So I appreciate what you're doing.

Likewise. Thank you. Thank you for doing this important work. And yeah, we need to get more men to, to, to express themselves and share what they're going through. It wasn't my original inclination, but I think the more we can do that, it helps not only them but the rest of their family. So, yeah.

Yeah. Awesome. Have a great rest of your day.

Yeah, you too. Bye.

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